Any Asian/Non-Diversity Males on This Forum? Future Career Concerns
Honestly feeling a bit down during the holidays about some of my thoughts and WFH isn't helping. I wasn't sure who to reach out to and thought to ask this forum for some thoughts.
For context my background: first year analyst in a decent coverage group at a mid-tier BB (BAML, Citi, Barclays, CS). Graduated May 2020 from a low-tier Ivy with a 4.0 in a relatively difficult major.
I'm an Asian male from the mid-west, think Kansas, Iowa etc type states and my high school had a 50% drop out rate with the next 30% not going to college or going to a community college. I was extremely fortunate into being accepted into a lower tier Ivy but I genuinely think I was competitive for the mid/high-tier ones but didn't stand a chance given the combination of the high school I went to, my race, and the lack of opportunity to stand out in a place where there is no way to stand out.
When going through SA recruitment I had a super day at a top BB GS/MS. I networked with both firms (GS/MS) and didn't like the culture/alumni from my school of one so I focused on the other one of GS/MS. I walked out of the interview thinking that there is 0 chance I don't get an offer. I had never felt more sure about anything in my life. Unfortunately did not get an offer and found out that that GS/MS firm simply doesn't hire anyone that isn't a white woman from my school. Not my year, the year before, the year after, or 2 years after. Every single person (5-6 a year) hired into IB has been a white woman. There are some guys I know who ended up getting offers at multiple PJT/Centerview/Evercore/JPM firms that didn't get an offer for that GS/MS bank I interviewed for so there really is 0% chance that only white women being hired was coincidence.
I'm worried for my future because if/when I recruit for PE i'm automatically at a disadvantage because i'm an Asian male. If I had the profile of Harvard --> GS all else equal I'll lose out to anyone considered diversity. Now i'm going to be low tier ivy --> mid-tier BB being compared to a diversity candidate with a Harvard --> GS profile and the only difference between me and them is the fact that I literally couldn't do better because of where I am from and my race. Sure, not getting into GS/MS was more of a gender issue rather than race but the issue is specific with my university. Going to that university versus a higher ranked one that doesn't have that issue of GS/MS only hiring white women was a race issue that began in high school. When I apply to business schools as an asian male from a low tier ivy--> mid-tier BB --> UMM PE firm and am compared to someone that's Harvard -->GS--> Blackstone i'm not going to be accepted and this is all started from being an Asian male. Am I wrong?
I know this was long-winded and kind of a ramble but I wanted to see other people's perspectives on this. I may be overthinking this and maybe I have an equal shot at top PE firms/top business schools but it just seems like every step of the way I'm being held back and it all stems from being the wrong race or gender or going to the wrong high school. I'm not here to argue the effectiveness of diversity programs but it just seems like i've gotten the short of the stick my entire life and will continue to do so for my next steps, PE and business school. I honestly feel like i'm powerless in my career goals and that I can't reach them because of being systemically held behind. Anyone on this forum faced similar issues and have any thoughts?
Speaking as an asian male. I used to feel this to an extent. But the truth is nobody cares unless you make a big deal out of it. Don’t focus on the names, prestige, merit - the truth is the further u get into your career the less people will focus on the firm/school and the more they will focus on you and your individual work and accomplishments. focus on yourself as a whole - the value you add to a team as a person, and your personality. This loser mentality will only hurt you in the long run, and sweating the things out of your control will only cause bitterness and unnecessary hate. Best of luck, you’re in a good place.
+1 Banana, very well said
The OP is coming from a place that is absolutely, 100% loser mentality and loser talk. Snap out of it!
I'm also at a top BB and the one thing I've learned is that good work shines through, period. Your goal shouldn't be thinking about how this-and-that is holding you back, your goal should be about what YOU can be doing to produce quality work every single day. When you turn out good work, especially at top BBs, that work is recognized and it will lead you to greater things. If that hasn't happened, then maybe the problem is you. Not you, the "Asian male" or you the "young male" or you the "whatever male", just YOU.
+ SB to you as well. Just made the shift from a relatively low-tier BB to MF. Asian male myself and have pretty similar background to OP. Nothing's impossible. Lose the loser mentality OP. Dude, if you think we're having a hard time, you really should look around more often.
Gets worse when you think about the other side of it
For sake of clarity, a rating of 1-10 combines everything about a candidate that should be judged (GPA, ACT, interview skills, clubs, etc)
Black female (7) gets into Harvard over white male (8), white male (9) also gets into Harvard. Black female (now 8, because she got into H because of her race) gets into GS over white male (9). Black female (now 9, because she got into GS) goes to Blackstone over white male (10). People don't even realize how far diversity recruiting spirals out of control. Like you said, it's not simply the jump between HS and College or college to IB or IB to PE. Incremental diversity boosts to mediocre candidates who then say (What do you mean, diversity recruiting, I came from GS11!!11!). Shame that liberals have created a verifiable statistical difference in the quality of people in careers based on their race. Guess we know who to blame for people not wanting a black doctor.
Lmao this comment is bonkers
The underlying sentiment in this comment is that everyone is born with an intrinsic score, potentially based on the color of their skin, which cannot be changed or overlooked. But look at this way (and to borrow your absurd number rating system illustratively): that Black female is now at Blackstone and is a 10, benefitting from her experience at Harvard, GS, and BX. It's not like she's still intrinsically a 7 - she's as skilled at her job as the next associate at Blackstone at this point. Shouldn't we be trying to elevate black women to "10s", especially when unjust systemic factors probably contributed to you perceiving her as or her being a "7" to begin with?
The misconception racists have (ie people who parrot the "black doctor" point) is that minorities who are not as pedigreed / fail to impress (usually) white-male gatekeepers are not only inferior but permanently inferior. They fail to recognize two points: firstly, that just because someone lacks pedigree doesn't mean they lack intrinsic talent, drive, and all the other factors that don't show up on a resume but are in the end the most important drivers of success. Secondly, they believe that once introduced to elite institutions, minorities are somehow incapable of learning and improving themselves to a level those elite institutions deem acceptable. The reality is minorities are perfectly capable of entering, for example, a GS analyst program, at a slight knowledge / pedigree disadvantage to their peers, and exiting it with the exact same skillset.
"Potentially based on the color of their skin"
Can you read at a fourth-grade level? Did you intentionally stab both of your eyes out? The black woman is a 7 because she lacks intelligence, interview skills, etc. and she gets hired in spite of it because of her race. In this case, she IS intrinsically a 7 who was unfairly given opportunities that she did not deserve based on, wait for it, HER RACE. I don't give a flying fuck that a dumb person got into H, GS, etc. because of her race, and I don't give a shit that she was given an opportunity to excel there. She won't excel to the level that a white man of greater skill would have. This process removes the supply of skilled labor in the workforce, continuing to fuck up our country further. Average Dr. brainpower in the US might be a 9/10, and this drops down to an 8/10 once diversity recruiting becomes present because you don't hire skilled workers in favor of less-skilled workers of a certain race. This is racism.
Liberals have created a world where (on average, retard) black doctors are always less skilled than white doctors. Where black lawyers are always less skilled than white lawyers. Where black bankers are always less skilled than black bankers. It's literally a fact, get rid of bullshit diversity recruiting and companies rolling over to meet diversity quotas and this ends instantly.
Being an asian male kinda sucks but that's nothing new and there's also nothing you can do to change it. I've also had these thoughts when applying to college/ib/pe but in the end why worry about something that you can't change. I feel the same way about the weekly diversity hate threads. People complaining about things outside of their control. Focus on yourself and be better. Success isn't a linear regression and the worst thing in life isn't not being able to make it to hbs/blackstone. Appreciate the opportunities that you do have that others weren't given.
Yea bro diversity programs are anti-meritocratic racist bullshit. Find me any system anywhere that was ever truly fair and meritocratic in any time period ever though. You’re better off than 99.999% of people alive today, let alone the people that have ever lived. The existence of these programs doesn’t affect your Nash equilibrium of keep working your ass off and being a stud, landing urself into the best opportunities you can. Definitely easier to say “shake it off and focus on what u can control” than to internalize it, but just what you need to do. I have a feeling you’ll make a Fuckton of money in your life regardless.
Mate, you went to an Ivy and work at a BB. You are already doing incredibly well compared to the vast majority of other people. Just relax a bit
If you focused on what you could control you would be better positioned for future opportunities. Preparation plus luck equals success
As long as you are normal, friendly and do good work, you will be fine.
The sooner you accept that life isn't fair, the happier you'll be. 99% of the world would kill to be in your position right now. Life isn't fair, get over it.
Am also an asian male and honestly you're probably not going to like what I have to say, but there was a time when I needed to hear it, so now it's your turn. When I was applying to college, I was a 4.0 student with a perfect SAT score, and a perfect ACT score, and perfect subject tests, and in fact I could not remember the last time I missed a question on a standardized test. I wasn't some antisocial weird fuck either -- I had a lot of friends, played a sport decently well, was nationally ranked in an extracurricular and was a pretty good writer. I was waitlisted or rejected from every single one of the T20 schools I applied to (and I applied to a lot). Maybe my essays weren't good after all, or maybe I was one of few kids each cycle that are just superbly unlucky. I wound up matriculating to a state school feeling incredibly bitter. I was angry with the system and the general idea of affirmative action. After all, I was brought up in a household where education was everything and it made me disgustingly mad that all my effort in high school had gone to waste and I had received the same outcome as some of the dumbest, lazy people in my high school class. I brought that chip on my sleeve into college until an older kid I knew from high school that went to my university told me two very important things.
The first is that nothing in life is fair, or should come with the expectation that it is. That sucks because our brains are hardwired to believe that there is a linear ratio between our inputs (effort, intelligence, skill, etc.) and outputs (success). But nobody owes you anything so stop feeling like you got robbed. Every ivy league school that rejected you is a private institution, as is every bank or consulting firm. They can make whatever decision they want to best uphold the experience and image they want their organization to convey. The important thing though is that nobody else's assessment of your fit for a particular organization can change who you actually are, or the skills you have. Ok so Harvard didn't want you -- that doesn't mean that you're not as smart or as good as any of their kids. So if you're better, than go do everything you can to win what you want anyway (and get the mini satisfaction of proving them wrong). I scrapped harder than anyone else at my school -- I did multiple internships as an underclassman, networked, learned my technicals, and was a 4.0 double major. When the time for recruiting came, I got every job I interviewed for and signed for a top buyside analyst program. You're not at a mid tier BB because some black kid took your job at Goldman Sachs. You're at your mid tier BB because you didn't want it bad enough. I don't care if GS/MS never took anyone besides white girls at your school before. Someone has to be the first for everything -- why not you? Not to mention you said other dudes at your school got top EB jobs -- why didn't you land those? Stop blaming other other people for your shortcomings when you could have been better. Does that feel unfair? Good -- hold yourself to an unfair standard -- if you want to succeed you have to be willing to do it when the odds are stacked against you. This brings me to the second important thing:
Don't blame or hold animosity against the kids that gain entry to your organization through diversity based pipelines. The simple reason is that if you were eligible, you would have done it too. They were only taking advantage of the system that was in front of them -- don't hate the player, hate the game. The other reason is that the majority of those kids are making genuine good faith attempts to gain knowledge and access to systems that have excluded people like them for generations. There are individual exceptions but as a group, the people I've met that were hired through diversity processes were hardworking, capable, and humble. If you insist on being angry at someone, then your anger should be directed at legacy admissions, or its corollary in the employment world: relationship hires. Even then, the fact of the matter is that in spite of all these external factors, there are asian and white male kids at every PE fund, banking group, and MBA program -- so much so that it is statistically provable that they are overrepresented as compared to the proportion they make up of the general population. So to directly address your gripe -- no, being an asian male is not the reason you are unhappy with where you are in life. The real reason is that you are caught up in other people's perception of your success and prestige and feel bitter that you weren't the asian male that made it. Want my advice? Focus on figuring out what's actually important to you and pursue it without regrets and with blinders on.
Your post was helpful believe it or not even though you're trying to teeter on the edge of being helpful without being an asshole. To clear things up: I never once believed life was fair because I know it's not. No where in my post did I imply life was fair. Additionally I have no animosity towards diversity kids because they didn't choose to be born black or a woman. I'm not one of these kids that posts 10x a day about how they hate diversity programs because I personally don't. Second, I didn't go for EBs because I wasn't sure if I wanted finance long-term or not but going to a BB gives me the chance to decide to leave finance with a brand name. When it came down to BBs I was either left with a mid-tier BB versus the one that I had no chance of getting.
If you're saying that you were in a similar situation, what helped you decide what was important to you? I've been thinking about these things and I can't seem to figure it out. Sometimes I wonder if I went into finance because I wanted to prove to the world that I could "make it" with all of these disadvantages. And in reality I did "make it." I wonder if my frustrations are that I didn't make it enough for what my abilities are. What made you decide what was important?
While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I just want to point out that your argument about the academic institutions being private doesn't really hold water. While they may not take government money to fund operations, it's not like they don't accept or reap any benefit from public funds. Professors (both undergrad and graduate), get government (federal, state and local) grants to fund research which, when published, increase the prestige or "image" of the institution the professors are affiliated with. Furthermore (at the undergraduate level at least), these academic institutions benefit from the federal student aid (scholarships, loans, etc.) that (at least some of) their student body depend on to pay their tuition (if they didn't do this, these private universities would only ever admit those students whom they are sure could pay).
As such, I tend to disagree with the assertion that these institutions "can make whatever decision they want to best uphold the experience and image they want their organization to convey". If these institutions are getting any benefit of my (or my parents) tax dollars (which they certainly are) they should espouse the principles of the government providing those tax dollars rather than independently (and often erroneously) deciding what "experience and image they want their organization to convey". These principles do not include discrimination based on sex, race or religion and they reward merit and hard work over the circumstances of one's birth.
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Dude you’re way better off compared to 99% of people your age. I get the GS or bust mentality that WSO likes to throw around, but count your blessings. Your mentality is super toxic and really setting yourself up to be unhappy with life. Yea everyone knows that diversity programs can be unfair to the rest of us (I’m half Asian and got 0 help) but no reason to stay super bitter about it. I didn’t get a BB offer or anything but am super happy about where I’ll end up and thought about my race 0 times throughout the recruitment process. Cheers bro and best of luck with everything
I’m a non-diverse guy and I want to say you’re being borderline autistic at this point.
It doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, WSO overemphasizes the difference between top schools and firms. I got rejected from Cornell (ED) and Dartmouth (other top choice). I go to Harvard now and I see people praising HYPSMW while bashing Cornell/Dartmouth. It’s the all same thing... I also still struck out at all the megafunds. I probably won’t ever work at BX at this point, but who gives a shit. I found a smaller MM/LMM firm that I’m excited about. I’m not as “prestigious” as I could be, but like I said, who gives a shit. You can still have a great career and make a respectable amount of money without top Ivy -> EB IB -> BX.
Think about it this way. Would you really want to be URM, female, gay/trans/whatever for the marginal increase in “prestige”? They have their own set of issues to deal with and I would personally take what I have right now.
Other posters above me have made very good points, and I'll chime in with a bit more. As an Asian male, I fully understand the bitterness you feel at circumstance - I came from a similar background of perfect GPA / top extracurriculars / perfect SAT, but I was fortunate enough to attend HYPSM. I ended up at a mid-tier BB, and signed with an MF on-cycle with no connections. If you look at those in MFs, there are plenty of Asian / non-diverse males who make it in without connections. Sure, it is significantly more difficult, but there are spots for those who fight for them, and there are quite a few Asian males who have begun to make it into the senior ranks at these firms. As others have said, it isn't fair, but it's possible - and the sooner you accept your circumstances and make the best of them, the better you'll do. I have certainly felt the effects of my race in finance / life, but it doesn't help you at all to focus on it. All the best!
The only thing you can do is to be better than everyone else, because as an Asian male, you will need to be better to get the same (you will need to outperform all the "URM"s and white men/women to get the same treatment and outcome).
This is something many learn through the college admissions process. just remember it will keep going.
That being said, try to reach out to other Asians on LinkedIn who are a few years ahead of you in your career - one thing that I find helpful is to remember that, even the best internship/analyst candidate is not as good as someone who's been on the job for 2 years - so , why not just accelerate your own performance and make yourself as good as someone who's been there for 2 years? This is not just about technical skills, but also understanding of the industry, soft skills/sales skills/demeanor, and ability to connect with people/sell yourself.
And when you are older, do not vote Democrats/donate to their politicians as they are the party that keeps churning out idiotic policies that use Asians to fund their unrealisitic and lazy utopia; afterall, they don't have the balls to confront truly old-money and priviledged class, and therefore Asians are the fall men for Democrats with small voting block and no generational wealth yet
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