As an analyst, how long did you do garbage and grunt work?
Hey former analyst folks. Just curious, how long did you do garbage and grunt work before starting to get opportunities to get trained to do real stuff? For me, I'm just modeling all day long, researching, writing stuff, gathering info, making powerpoints and databases, etc. You know the deal.
After 8 months they will ask you to source and lead a deal.
lawl
ha... should be ready to execute after 8 months - no?
Sounds like you are doing the real stuff. That is what being an analyst is.
"For me, I'm just modeling all day long, researching, writing stuff, gathering info, making powerpoints and databases, etc. You know the deal."
Welcome to banking.
Damn dude. I'd get coffee all day if it paid 130k the first year out of school. Who gives a fuck?
Two years. Maybe three if they like you.
I think the more ideal question is, how long do you have to become an analyst till you can finally move out of your job scope. If it's really my passion, I wouldn't really see it as "grunt work" but more of a learning process and how better you can be more efficient with that process, because these skills you take them up with you.
Better yet, while being an analyst you can study at the same time. There are already many opportunities out there for flexible education whilst at work such as the CFA.
Menial Work? (Originally Posted: 03/18/2010)
I graduated from a top-25 school (extremely quant heavy) in 2008 and now work in MO (Business Management) for a MM firm.
I started my current position 3 weeks ago, and it seems like everything I do is very boring and monotonous. I am constantly depressed, thinking "I didn't need to shell out massive amounts of money, go 5-figures in debt, and bust my ass, double majoring for a 3.5 GPA while starting my own business and working 20 hours a week to be doing this". By doing this job, I really feel that I wasted time and money going to college, and a top-25 school as well. Nothing that I do on the job, did I need to go to college for. Even one of the co-workers on my team didn't go to college - she started straight from High School. Seriously, I feel like I am wasting my talent. It is even more depressing when I found out that someone who slacked off at my high school and attended a 3rd tier college landed a FO gig at Goldman because he's related to an MD...
I'm wondering if Front Office Analyst jobs are like this as well? I mean, even bankers need to create DCF models and analyze Balance Sheets / Income Statements / Statements of Cash Flows, which you need to take accounting and finance classes for.
Analysts at BBs go through training to learn much of what they need to know.
It might make you feel better though that unless this dude from your HS makes a miraculous 180-degree turnaround in his work ethic, he will be weeded out sooner rather than later. You can't fake it in real life. it's not the intellect- but the hard work. How can he compare to kids who busted their ass since middle school and now have no problem loging 3-digit week hours? LOL It's like going from 0 to 100mph in an instant.
To answer your bigger problem- that happens all the time. It's a sad fact at life. Sometimes it takes time before you get an opportunity to show off your full potential (and frankly a lot of people decide to settle). You can try for a top MBA after a while though- that would give you a new recruiting network.
Thanks for the encouragement. He actually works S&T, so there's no 100-hour weeks...
But to my main point, I will definitely shoot for a top-MBA, but I am really worried that all of this menial work I do will look terrible on my B-School app. How can I compare to someone who has worked on million dollar deals or managed his own desk, when I ran reports and changed trader coverage all day?
It seems like you're jumping the gun a little bit -- you've only been there 3 weeks! In reality, you're still getting your feet wet there. Because it's so easy for you, show off how well you can do the work to your bosses and maybe go the extra mile and pick up projects they didn't necessarily assign you. This, of course, depends on the culture of your team and if they smile upon that kind of thing. Then perhaps when an opening comes up your boss will support you going to a FO position.
Why didn't you go for FO straight out of college instead of taking on an MO role? You seem driven enough to have done so. What made you settle for MO?
Well I am observing the work that my team members do as well and it seems extremely menial. Not to mention, they are surfing the internet for half of the day.
It's not like I wanted to do MO coming out of college. Long story short, I had terrible health problems my junior year which affected my GPA - it was a 3.3 during recruiting season - so a lot of banks passed on me during the interview selection process. I took my first job (in MO) because they said they would promote me to S&T after 1.5-2 years but they laid me off and now I have nothing to show for it. They are still laying people off...
FO analyst roles are deliberately glamourised by the people who work them - trust me, i'm one of them.
Though I'm not entirely sure what the day to day of MO work is, from what you've said, it's not a million miles off IBD FO - its sitting at a desk, in front of a computer, making models and analyzing company financials.
Dude, I went to a private Top 25 school, got a 3.5, and now work in fund administration. I felt the exact same thing you were when I started out. I can almost guarantee that the stuff I do is more menial than 99% of what the other people on this board do. Yet I've had to hang in there for almost two years now. Excel at what you're doing right now, look for baby steps towards a FO role, and whatever you do, don't get comfortable. My brain's been on vacation for 21 months now, and it gets harder and harder to stay motivated. If you're worried about b-school, make sure you resume has other good things on it (community service, CFA, whatever) and focus on progressing to something better so you can tell a good story on your app.
Finally, remember that there is always worse. My first day of training, they asked us what schools we went to, and a couple girls had graduated from community college. I basically knew right then and there that I didn't want to stay in this job long. But things happen (like the worst financial crisis in 75 years) and I'm still doing BO stuff that makes spreading comps look like rocket science. But some kid on this forum wants to wear a sandwich board, so it seems like I'm doing ok.
Buck up son, life is hard.
Sometimes I feel the same way--like a mechanical Turk.
Check out "Linchpin" by Seth Godin.
take a second and breath.
long story short, i went through something fairly similar.
short version - had a FO offer at a BB, this BB blew up, got offered me a job at a surviving BB in their fund administration group. took the offer b/c i had a boat load of loans, had signed a lease and needed the paycheck.
i went in there, hated the job/group i was working in. thought it was the most boring thing ever. but, i knew that if i wanted to go anywhere, i needed to take care of business and get to work. did a really good job and got excellent reviews from my vps. i also communicated to them that i wanted to look to transition to a more FO role, particularly in the bank's AM arm. they were able to put me in touch with recruiters over there and i was able to network/interview my way into a FO role.
basically, your situation is awful and i feel bad for you. it happens to a lot of people, but it's what you make of it that counts.
(sorry if that sounds preachy, it really was not the intention)
Out of curiosity, what kind of an FO role do you have cupianoman?
investment analyst for pb/pwm. nothing overly glamorous. but i figure i did 1.5 years in the ops gig, do this for 2.5 years or so... then go back to school.
Don't mean to be unsympathetic... what's with the sense of entitlement? do you have any idea how many graduates of "top 25" schools there are in this country? not every one of those people will get FO jobs at top tier shops. We all have to start from somewhere. No entry level job is without grunt work. I think you need to correct your mentality, work hard, be the best you can be and make the most out of your situation.
I also have no idea what you mean by "extremely menial" and "wasting my talent". Those seem like gross overstatements to me, regardless of what you do in MO. Get a grip. At least you have a job, and you're in a position where it's at least possible for you to move to FO in the future, if you work hard and do a good job.
Keep telling yourself that you're "wasting your talent" doing "extremely menial" things, and I guarantee that you will be miserable for the foreseeable future.
I am sorry if you see me this way, but it's not like everyone in a FO position has a 3.8+ from HYP. There are plenty of people in FO positions with far worse stats (on paper at least) than me. I gave an example in my OP. So the question of course is, if he can get it, why can't I?
Anyway, it seems like only rodneymullen has answered my question. I'll ask it again:
Are FO roles very monotonous and mind-numbing? More importantly, do you apply anything you learned in school on the job? Or does their training program teach you everything you need to know? Hypothetically, if you went straight from HS, skipped college, and went straight to their training program, do you think you could have succeeded in your current FO role?
I went to a top school too and landed in PWM, which is front office but not that good. Just work hard and start small and go to a boutique like I did. You'll find that if you do good work, anything is possible and you'll get good recommendations and be able to go to a good bschool.
I think there's a lot of good advice for all of us here. Sure, some people have great connections and luck out- but so what? there are also people who win the lottery, have 100m+ trust funds from their parents, or are born with model looks.
Part of being an adult is to roll with what you have. And as long as you work hard you'll be better off than most other people.
A good friend of mine worked in the MO, he was also very depressed with it, he said any kid could do is job. After 6 months he left the bank and went on to be a pilot.
However he had lots of free time (when compared to a FO position), my advice is, start studing for the CFA. If you do have time this is a great chance to really improve your probability of getting a FO position, hear is my step-by-step guide:
I think everyone has hit it dead on this thread. I have found that anything but the top dogs in wall street want to be at that next level. I guess that's what brought us all here, the drive for perfection.
I am in a position that some would value, and personally want much more (experience, $$, etc.). I totally hear you on the wasted talent. The web surfing in the banking industry for most employees is absurd. I feel like I could do the work of 5 people here. The worse is when co-workers say "I'm so busy," just because a deal comes through they have actual work to do.
None of you seem to have read past the first few lines of his original post.
He asked whether FO jobs are just as tedious and menial as his current job.
Even though I haven't had anything more than a FO internship, I feel after my experience and the large amount of research I have done on the subject, I can atleast give my opinion.
As far as I'm concerned most FO entry-level positions are full of grunt work as well. The difference is that you might do a bit more technical work when it comes to the modeling,etc.... However, that only comprises a part, and according to mergers and aquisitions and from what I've seen myself, it is a small part of the job. I figure part of the experience as an analyst on the trading floor or on a deal sector of IBD is being able to be part of the deals/trades/research even though you are more of an observer. I would assume as you get higher up and are a more integral part of the profit driving that you gain responsiblities that are atleast much more interesting/exciting. However, everything will still be relatively repititious I would think, as even the trades you would put on would be relatively similar I would think. (would be better if someone with more experience would answer that though.)
In terms of actually using the grand theories and or complex mathematical equations you learned in classes, it is unlikely. Plus if you do, I would assume you specialize in it and after awhile even that would feel relatively repetitive. Perhaps something like derivatives structuring (Financial Engineering) would be more up that ally.
I really think if you are looking for quantitative stimulation, etc... this might not be the best industry. (hell I don't know if many engineers/scientists can say that their work isn't repetive and don't use many of theories/models they developed in their university courses)
I would say the only sure fire way to have your brain intelectually stimulated while on the job is to work in academia. Otherwise get a Phd and perhaps some of the more restrictive, difficult positions in the Financial engineering/hedge funds world would be a possiblity.
I went through a similar thought process on my first internship when I saw the analysts and upper management weren't using any of the difficult theories learned in most courses.
I'm sure the above answer was very ignorant on certain things and someone who has been working in the field longer could probably give a much more useful opinion. However, I feel very similar to you and have done a quite a bit of research on the topic so hopefully I was of some help.
I believe halamadrid touched on a very important point. As a junior professional and someone who is brand new to the work force, you are very unlikely to be given any work that could have a potential negative impact on the company. The idea is that over time you will be given increasing levels of responsibilities as you gain experience and as the company gains comfort with your abilities. Your college education and intelligence level will start to become increasingly valuable as you're given decision making opportunities.
In terms of front office roles: While new IBD analysts are generally given tasks that will have a higher degree of impact on the organization than MO or BO professionals' tasks, they still have a bazillion people reviewing their work prior to it being finalized. I'd say that the majority of this work does not require the analyst to have knowledge of accounting or finance principles, but it does require them to have the ability to absorb information, learn new concepts, and follow instructions. This is why banks are generally looking to hire "smart" people rather than "smart, finance" people. In fact, the majority of the work an analyst does involves collecting information and preparing it in a format that senior professionals can use to analyze it and make decisions.
CompBanker pretty much hit it on the head. Network, make efficient use of your downtime and do a good job. Try and make friends at work which will soften the blow.
I'm an M&A analyst - I quite frankly feel the same way as you, I think the work I do is incredibly mindless, and given that I have no respect for my VPs to MDs, I feel often like I should just do a shit job on the work till they fire me. More annoying than the work, is the sense of entitlement that a lot of my co workers have, anyone from analysts through MDs. You'll quickly learn how silly this industry can be, and while they are plenty of talented bankers out there, when you find yourself working for a worthless scumbag of an MD, it can make you pretty jaded.
The above attitude is one I have in mind a lot, but in reality, I still bust my ass and make sure my work is 110% perfect. I only do this since I like to think I'm a pretty motivated 22 year old, who can suck it up/hack it, even if I want throw their arrogant asses out on Park Avenue. It sucks, trust me, but part of me keeps two things in mind - a) I am actively looking and getting plenty of interviews/headway for roles that are exciting to me and b) there are thousands of college kids other laid off analysts who would kill for a job in banking, let along finance...if you (not directed at you, more general) think you're too good or are entitled to something more prestigious, then get out and give someone else a chance.
It's easy to get discouraged and disgruntled - I know I have been for the past 6 months, and have actively been looking to transition. The best thing is to bust your ass and learn the most you can, and leverage that into something you think you'll like better. The grass is certainly always greener...
Good luck dude
Well said, cheers
I work in FO S&T and my work ranges from highly monotonous (e.g. database work, internal reports, etc.) to exciting and rewarding - executing/structuring transactions. I hate to admit it but I spend a great deal of time and energy on mind-numbing, thankless, grunt work - it's part of being a jr. guy and I've come to accept it for now. Try not to get too discouraged and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Exercitationem dolorum odit reprehenderit. Rerum dolor harum a et. Enim provident excepturi iste recusandae et culpa doloribus. Dolorum saepe sit officia ut aperiam.
Quia dolor sequi impedit praesentium. Et incidunt fugiat voluptatem eligendi.
Eveniet eveniet et vero. Soluta qui iure suscipit aut cumque et recusandae. Ut nemo voluptatum debitis distinctio qui nostrum.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Alias sequi sed enim omnis aut occaecati a. Ut at voluptate in doloremque quia est rerum. Cupiditate quia delectus qui quisquam sed. Omnis sit possimus sit consequatur occaecati eum.