As the title suggests, I wanted peoples' opinion on whether I should be arguing for a bigger bonus assuming a worst case scenario and get screwed... Obviously the answer depends on the situation so, here's a quick overview...
I'm a "analyst" by title at what was previous a niche MM private equity firm that ran very lean. Due to how lean the firm was, I was able to get significant amounts of responsibility that would mirror what a market "PE associate" would be doing, if not more. As a function of a variety of things, the private equity firm I sat in divested all of its fund assets and became the "M&A group" for the parent company that sponsored many of the fund acquisitions.
In becoming the new "M&A group", we also absorbed the parent company's existing "corp dev" team. Through this re-organization, it was clear that the staff from the PE shop was significantly more talented than the corp dev guys. There were a few lay offs, mostly from the corp dev team side but there is still a fair amount of "fat" around the middle/top of the new organization.
Through the re-org, I remained an "analyst" by title but continued to do "associate" work and actually be the lead deal guy right below the deal originator on some deals. I also had to teach many mid-level and director-level guys from the corp dev team on how to "properly" execute and think about deals; I essentially carried other people's weight on some deals since they were clueless. While getting more responsibilities seems great at face value, there is now an excessive amount of office politics/BS since the guys who are mid/senior level guys know that they don't really add value to the new M&A team.
These people really only got absorbed because either 1) senior management didn't fully understand their actual value and 2) some of these guys have been at the parent company for 5-10+ years. Long story short: I do a lot more than my title suggests, due to my title, I am on the receiving end of a lot of the office BS, and I'm literally carrying people on my shoulders as these people try to take credit for my work.
Luckily, I have a great reputation with the senior guys who came over from the original PE shop. This senior MD that essentially runs the group knows my struggle and has made it explicitly clear that he didn't want to lose me and told me to be patient as the amount of BS fades over time. While this is great sentiment, the bonus decision is made across several senior guys and I can totally see the company screwing me over financially speaking.
So IF worst comes to worst, should I argue for a higher bonus? IF so, do I bring it up during the review/bonus discussion with the guy in charge of staff management or do I take it up to the senior MD? Should I just keep my mouth shut and if I don't like what I got, just move elsewhere?
"Luckily, I have a great reputation with the senior guys who came over from the original PE shop."
You won't anymore if you push back on your bonus number... Honestly the best way to express dissatisfication with your comp is to leave for another firm. Anything else is just going to make problems for you down the road.
This is a tough one. "Arguing" for a better bonus will just get you fired at worst and make you look like an idiot at best. If you receive less than market, make sure you have a heart to heart with the guy who told you to be patient and essentially have a long-term career path conversation with him. After having said conversation, you will figure out pretty quickly whether you want to stick around or move on.
This is exactly right.
You should sit down with the senior MD before any bonus numbers come out and describe all the things you did this year that were above and beyond the normal line of duty. If you have any guidance on what a bonus might be you should argue why you should get that based on colleagues etc.
Once the bonus number is announced you need to take it for what it is. There is nothing good that will come from you arguing for X amount more.
Regardless of the bonus number, if the timing makes sense (i.e. you are around 2 years in) you should ask for a promotion. Again, if you have been there for a year you are not getting promoted no matter how much "associate" work you are doing. But if the baseline was for you to get promoted in 6months to a year you could argue for an accelerated promotion based on the associate work you are doing.
If it were me, I wouldn't worry about the bonus and argue for a promotion.
Agree to sit down before you get your number. Bitching about your # doesn't help once you get it. If you're unhappy with it and your perception is that it is consistent with others your level, then you need to look elsewhere. If you feel you were paid less than others and want to stay, you should follow up a month or two after you get your numbers (once you've had a chance to reflect) and ask for feedback. Listen to it.
I had a talk with one of the partners at my PE fund by my 3rd year (BEFORE the bonus) because I felt that my first two years were below market. Also, by my 3rd year I had closed on several of the funds key deals and was doing a lot of other fundraising stuff nobody wanted to touch. So I think as long as the conversation is done respectfully, you have a good relationship with your MD and you have a reasonable # in mind that you'd like to hit, I think speaking with them prior to whatever meeting they have scheduled to decide on bonuses would be wise.
That being said, I already knew I was going to business school and I wasn't sure if I was ever coming back to PE, so it's a different situation. If you are looking for a long run, I'd follow modestlocke9 s advice and push for the promotion rather than an extra $10-20k in comp...
The best advice I can give you is to always look for an exit/lateral first.
Once you have another offer on the table, even if you don't plan to take it, you can start being aggressive with negotiations (that doesn't mean to be an asshole). Make a list of objective points and list them out to your senior managers, starting with the ones closest to you and work your way up.
I am a little shocked that nobody has mentioned that it is VERY likely your perception of your value does not match reality. You are 'literally' carrying hordes of people on your back? I will never know for sure, but I doubt it. I get it that everyone thinks that their shit doesn't stink, but this is a bit over the top, especially when there is no objective way to measure these supposed results. It's all soft and not a trading p&l, for instance.
Imagine you read this post from the person you consider to be the second most effective person anywhere near your level (behind you, of course) and tell me you wouldn't think it was ridiculous.
That being said, talk to the bosses in advance of the actual bonus discussion. Aim for no surprises.
Certainly it's possible his perception of his own value is higher than reality, but I think readers are, for the sake of giving out advice, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I'm not the least bit surprised by something like this story - there are corp dev groups out there made up of people that don't know their way around a deal, and in a case like this, I don't doubt there are a bunch of mid level guys that don't know jack and are hiding behind some office politics BS.
But anyway, agreed with Patrick and modestlocke9 - if you have a good relationship with the senior guys, sit down with them to discuss all your value add before the bonus discussion. I would personally fight for the promotion as opposed to a specific bonus figure. The difficulty with pushing for a higher bonus is that some of it is out of the senior management's hands - if the parent company assigned a bonus "band" for each level, all you can do is 1) find out what the band is, and 2) fight for a top ranking, which then allows senior management to make a case for you getting top end of the band. But if the bonus band is shit in absolute $ terms and outside of your expectations relative to market, it's not likely they're going to make an exception for you unless this is a company really rewards people - and by the sound of them consolidating and cutting teams, I doubt they'll be that generous. In that case, all you can really do is A) get promoted to better reflect your contributions, get a higher base and higher bonus band next year, and/or B) look externally.
In this case I would sit down with management to discuss your contributions before the review, to emphasize your top performance and that you want to get promoted to better reflect your contributions and responsibilities. And separately, for someone you're closer with, ask them if they have an idea what the range is. So this way, you're trying to lock yourself in for the higher end of that range, and position yourself for promote if they can do it. Then, if whatever they give you is still not good enough, you can look externally.
You hit the spot on that one Dick.
Get another offer and slam it on the table. Don't say a word. Watch all the boxers drop
One of these is your problem: 1. You're good at your job but your boss doesn't see it, in which case you suck with people, and given your industry that means you're not actually good at your job. 2. You're not good at your job and one too many nights throwing stacks of $1 bills at Applebee's waitresses has given you a distorted perception of yourself.
So to summarize:
1) You suck at your job 2) You suck at your job
Might I propose:
3) The people you work for are sacks of pewp
Yes, you may.
Thanks for all the responses. I spent some time thinking about what everyone wrote and I think I will probably stand down when it comes to actual comp. If anything the bonus number this year will be a reflection of how senior management truly values my contributions to date and their view on keeping me long term. If what my seniors have told me thus far are genuine, there should be no surprises.
Not long ago, I got fed up with the BS I had to deal with when working with some of these dev guys (people literally asking me what they needed to talk about in meetings, what's important in the deals we were on, taking credit for my work that they had zero input on, and teaching these people how to be an "associate" when I myself am an analyst by title). So I asked the sr MD to lunch to catch up and chat. Instead of scheduling the lunch, he could tell something was wrong and he dropped everything he was doing and went out to lunch and talked that day.
Over lunch, we talked about the BS I had to deal with. surprisingly, he already knew about some of the BS. His advice was to remain patient and don't let the frustration derail my own performance. To let the BS fade over time (suggesting that people will either naturally leave, get fired, etc) and have the performance rise to the top. He also noted that his fear is for me to leave the firm to fully commit to a startup that I casually started. In essence I came out of that lunch feeling like the sr. MD knew what was going on and not misguided by the enormous amount of BS going on currently.
So yeah, that chat gave me comfort but I suppose the final bonus numbers will reflect whether this MD was BS-ing me or not. Also, while I'd personally love a promotion than a bigger bonus, it's unlikely given that there is already an enormous amount of middle-level fat. The Sr. MD actually made that clear that sometimes, people are awarded comp beyond their title simply because they can't give out higher titles when the organization is already top/mid level heavy.
Negotiating Bonus (Originally Posted: 06/01/2016)
Summer bonus season is about to come around and some people (myself included) are ready to be disappointed by what they may get. Has anyone ever negotiated with their staffer over their bonus? To what extent were you able to push it up? Does it become a drawn-out process, or does the staffer have a lot of leeway to push people up a bucket?
lol
In this market environment, you have no leverage, so the chance of your bonus being bumped up is zero.
"That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it works out for Him."
1) You are a resource, not a contributor to the revenue of the firm 2) Resource...you have no leverage 3) Resource...300 kids want your job 4) You're better off trying to make the Titanic do a U-turn than to have a staffer (who wants to look good too in a hard market, stick his neck out for you and make waves with the partners) 5) What are you going to do? Leave? You'll just have to do another 3rd year all over again in a down market. Or, you risk being an associate at a sweat shop or internment camp.
Have fun.
Let us know how it goes.
Negotiating bonus? (Originally Posted: 08/26/2010)
See below... would this work?
http://dealbreaker.com/2010/08/bonus-negotiations-how-to-get-em-done/
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