B-School Q&A w/ Betsy Massar of Master Admissions

huethan:

Betsy,

Thank you for this thread! I posted this in the other thread but I figured I'd post it here as well :) I read through your entire thread before I posted so not just posting for the sake of it.

Academics: 2.7 GPA from a top public school in CA (Berkeley/UCLA). Econ major.
Work experience: I was an analyst-associate promote at a boutique investment bank. Recently left to work in strategic planning for a Fortune 100 as a sr analyst in the international FP&A group, focusing on all regions around the world. (very unique group. not traditional FP&A nor strategy. can elaborate in pm if needed). Total experience so far: 4.5 years. Never a day unemployed since graduation.
Personal background + story: Bi-lingual in Mandarin. Grew up in Asia and worked internationally for the i-bank for several months and now in a group with significant international operation and focusing on their international operations and finance strategies. That's the story I'd like to tell and the main reason for MBA is to enhance my knowledge to one day be in the leadership position at an international company.
GMAT: Haven't taken. Will start studying. I've always done well quantitatively but not great at verbal.
Recommendations: I have reasons to believe I can get glowing recs from my previous employer's CEO and if I perform well from my team. Everyone on my team (of 10) has MBA (Stanford/Columbia/USC/Carnegie) so they know the game.

My questions:
-What kind of schools should I be looking at with my type of profile? Assume I can take classes and score 700 on GMAT. My grades/academics aren't stellar so I don't think I have a shot at HBS/Stanford. I believe my finance + operations experience bode well for Wharton/Chicago but again the academics may hold me back. Thoughts on reach/safety schools?
-My current employer can support my partially (if not entirely) for the MBA if I choose to partake in a part-time program. I'm in California so I think Haas/UCLA/USC will be part of the discussion if so. Do you think there is any stigma to a part-time program? This would make sense financially.
-I'd have 5~6 years of experience depending on when I apply (2013 or 2014). I have heard my academics won't be as stressed upon as if I just recently graduated. Is this true?

Thank you. I look forward to hearing your response.

HUGE apologies for not responding sooner. This time of year is very hard for anyone trying to have a life, especially for those who are working on MBA admissions. Deadlines! Today is the deadline for Wharton, Kellogg, Tuck, Michigan Ross, and more, and everyone I am working with has pushed against this day. And we are not even done with the Round 2 cycle.

So, Huethan, you've put a lot of material in this post, and there are a lot of moving parts. The first: your grades.
Most of what I am saying relates to a full-time program:
Sadly, a 2.7 is tough. Without an alternative transcript, that is, taking courses to prove that you can sit in a classroom and actually do the work, most admissions committee members will simply pass -- even if you have a tremendous GMAT (specializing in quant).
For part-time, particularly at the California schools you mentioned, there's a little more emphasis on work experience and contribution, and it's possible, but you really need to prove you can do the school work. Glowing recs are ancillary.
Basically, here's the deal -- interesting work experience can only get you so far.

Having said all that, the quality of your transcript is also important. If you had a bad freshman year and then pulled it together, challenged yourself, and did well, then your low GPA may be mitigated. They do look carefully at transcripts and the choices you make during undergraduate.

I do not believe there is a stigma to a part-time program except among people who are in the midst of full-time programs, and they are hardly going to be giving you employment any time soon. I think the adults in the room recognize that working full time and going to school part time is laudable, and demands tremendous maturity, balancing, and focus. You still receive an MBA, the diploma is exactly the same.

As for your comments about "academics won't be stressed upon as if I recently graduated," Let's just say that in the part-time program the GPA will have a lesser weight, but you still need to prove that you will excel in a classroom, and I am not sure how else to show it but by an alternative transcript.

Having said all that, let me know if there are any mitigating circumstances (other courses, certifications like a CFA, or something like that) that prove you can be a great student. Push back on my thesis! I am only reading a post in a forum -- what am I missing?

Best regards to you, Betsy

wsomonkey90001:

Hello, and thanks for all the help you have provided for applicants,

MBA Targets: Yale, Dartmouth, Rice, Texas, USC, UCLA, UChicago

Academic info:
3.0 GPA no-name state school in Texas
3.8 GPA MA Econ- NYU
750 GMAT (q49, v42)
Member of under-represented minority

Work experiece:
2 years as real estate analyst for major PE firm
2 years as RE investment banking analyst for middle-market investment bank

Thank you

So so so sorry for being so late in getting back to you. Seriously, I'm behind on everything with all these deadlines. Yikes.

Here's what I can say so far from what i can tell -- your quant score and the NYU 3.8 definitely help you get it over the net. And you probably have a job they can understand, so that makes it easy. Being a member of an under-represented minority is helpful once your numbers are in order, and they look like they are.

As to which schools, I honestly have no idea with just numbers. You know as well as I do that Rice is going to be easy, but as for the rest, they all have their own style. USC and UCLA are also a little less demanding, to get into, mostly due to rankings. But it also depends on what you want to do in the future and what are your other selling points.

Having said all that, is this for Round 2? Let us know how you get on!

Betsy

MFFL:

Betsy, thank you so much for taking the time to do all this. I was hoping you could provide some more information on creating an alternate transcript. Suppose I take online classes at UC Berkeley. Here are my questions:

-Which is better: taking classes you lacked in undergrad, such as STEM for business majors, or correcting weaknesses in your undergrad grades, such as retaking Calculus because you got a C in undergrad calculus?

-Do you put this new school and GPA on your resume? Since it isn't degree seeking, do you just call it "Continuing Education" in the place where you would normally put your Degree?

-How do you approach the subject in your essays or discussions with the school. Is it okay to admit that you are creating an alternate transcript to remedy shortcomings in your undergrad, or do the schools need to believe you had a genuine interest in learning additional material?

-Could you describe the types of candidates you believe could benefit from an alternate transcript, versus candidates that may not find it worth their time or money?

Thanks

Something tells me that I haven't responded to this question, and for that I am really sorry! These are really good questions, so I will go one by one.

1. When you ask which is better, taking a class you lacked in undergrad or retaking a class, I guess it depends. If you got a C in calculus and did not take business statistics, then go ahead and take the stats class. If you took both but did fine in stats, then you might want to retake the class over; it may be too easy for you, so see if there's something more challenging that still shows you are a)able to perform well in an academic environment, even if it is online and b)able to commit to a course on top of your day-to-day work and other activities; proving that you can do many things at once and still excel

2. You don't need to put it on the resume unless you want to. If you do want to, you can put it in the "other" section. Normally, the education, like work experience goes from recent to less-recent, and you may not want to lead your education section with a continuing ed course. Puts too much emphasis on it.

3. You don't need to mention your alt transcript in your essays. You might mention it in the optional essay if appropriate. If you want to bring it up during an interview, fine. They will see it for what it is: either an interest or an attempt to prove to yourself that you can do the work.
When I did my alt work, (seven semesters of one biz course each -- starting with statistics -- but remember, I was totally liberal arts. Macroeconomics was about as analytical as I got), I have to say part of it was to prove to myself that I was interested and able to do the work. Coming out of college with a lame GPA, I felt pretty weak.
So the courses, especially as they built on each other, made me feel better about myself. Hence, I was a stronger candidate.

4. I will answer the question about the type of candidates in the next post. Someone just rang on the other line and I need to take the call....

Watch this space!

Betsy

Hi MFFL, I keep meaning to write to you, but for some reason the system is not saving my writing.

In short, I think any candidate who never took stats or calculus OR who got less than a B in those courses would benefit from an alternate transcript.

It's not that expensive, especially compared to what you will get out of it, which is a sense that you can master the material, especially while you are probably working full time. It shows smarts, commitment, and an ability to do more than one thing at a time. It also will help YOU feel like you are on top of the material.

There's no downside, from an admissions point of view, unless you don't do well in the course. But then, you don't have to forward the transcript.

Tell me how it goes,
Betsy

hedge:

Hi Betsy. I have a question that is probably somewhat out the norm, haha. I am of a very unique ethnicity defined as Louisiana Creole. The best way I can describe it is we are a mix of French, Spanish, and African. Both of my parents and all my grandparents are of creole descent. While little is known about us outside of south Louisiana, several books have been written about us in recent years. So my question is what would be the appropriate selections to make for race on the application. It would seem in my case Caucasian and African-American, however, i'm worried if I get an interview that an interviewer may look at me and think I am trying to game the system (based on my looks people have asked was I Hispanic, Spanish, or Hawaiian).

I am not trying to get any type of edge based on race, but I do want to properly communicate what makes me unique, and I consider my heritage a very important thing. Would someone like me possibly benefit from writing an optional essay on my cultural background?

Thanks

Hi Hedge,
Sorry it has taken so long to reply. These round 2 deadlines got the best of me, and still I want to just sleep for the next few days. But, more deadlines next week...

So to answer your question, the check-box is usually based on the US Government regulations, which are:

A person belonging to a racial or ethnic group which historically has been disadvantaged and underrepresented in the workforce. Minority groups have been defined by the federal government to include American Indians/Alaskan Natives, Asians/Pacific Islanders, African Americans/Blacks, and Hispanics/Latinos. Definitions of these minority groups follow:

American Indian/Alaskan Native : Persons having origins in any of the original peoples of North America and who maintain cultural identification through tribal affiliations or community recognition.
Asian/Pacific Islander : Persons having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, or the Pacific Islands. This area includes, for example, China, Japan, Korea, the Philippine Islands, and Samoa.
African American /Black, Not of Hispanic Origin: Persons having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.
Hispanic/Latino : Persons of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race..

So, if you have origins with any of these groups, then I guess you are free to identify yourself that way.
As for your look vs. your ethnicity, it's too hard to tell these days. I mean, did you know Keanu Reeves is part Japanese? Does Cameron Diaz look Hispanic? And I know a beautiful tall blonde lawyer who is legitimately Native American, coming from a tribe whose people go back 10,000 years.

So, if you are comfortable identifying yourself with any of these groups, note the word is "origins." It's likely you get to judge what that means, not admissions.

Coolac:

Betsy, Many thanks for for taking out the time to answer our questions. I plan on doing a MBA and want to check if my stats are ok for the schools that I am targeting.

If not, I would appreciate if you could please recommend some schools to me given my stats

My top programs are: 1) Harvard 2) Wharton 3) Columbia 4) Tuck 5) Kellogg 6) Stanford

GPA: 3.4 at a top 25 US liberal arts college

Job after employment: IBD at a mid tier bulge bracket firm working with clients in both Europe, Middle East & Africa.

Work Experience: Expecting 4/5 Years. I am not sure where do I land up after my current banking gig, or if I was to stick here.

GMAT:Yet to take it but very confident about getting above 700

Note about GPA: It's less than 3.5 only because I had one rough semester where I got a 2.2 due to family problems. I was constantly going in and out of the US. It dropped my overall from 3.5 to 3.4. That particular semester, I got a D in a non-major related course including a B- and a B+.

Other stats include:

- Director of my dad's firm that provides audit and consultancy related services. I only started getting involved recently once I started my new job in banking
- Strategy Head of a Non-Profit org. that provides free uni counseling services
- captain of horse polo team

I am also an international student.

I would appreciate if you could provide me advice on what schools you feel I should target, and how many years/type of of work experience would candidates like me generally require to compensate for the low GPA.

Many thanks.

Question: do you really think a 3.4 is a low GPA? I don't. But if you are concerned about the 2.2 due to family problems, you will be able to explain it on your optional essay. It's not that big a deal. What was the D in? Non-major related isn't really the point; it's whether it was in a STEM course, in which case I would recommend you take it over.

It sounds to me like you have a few years more to do well at your job and excel. That's really it. Be good at what you do. Take on more responsibility than your peers. Have a life. Be interesting. Keep playing polo.
Do everything you are doing, and do it well. Business schools like people who have a pattern of excellence, in everything they do. But not such an intensity that they aren't fun.

So keep your options open, talk to people at schools, who are on your team at your IB, do as much cross border work as you can, challenge yourself to take on new projects, and study hard for your GMAT.

As for what schools are for you? I think you know better than I do what interests you and what kind of people you want to surround yourself with. Go on a field trip, particularly during springtime when students are all happy and less wound up about jobs or grades. Sit in on classes, ask students what they like and what they don't like about their program, and think hard about how you would feel if you were in their shoes.

You are very lucky to have so many choices. Take advantage.

Best to you,
Betsy

shorttheworld:

betsy betsy! another question for your lovely and wise self. do you think it is better to interview with alumni in your home country? since im down in brazil i may 'have to' interview with alumni down here (as i wont be back into the states for another 3-4 weeks after im expecting to hear about interviews) but im not sure how flexible adcoms will be about this. i think id be more comfortable interviewing with americans vs brazilians but i was wondering if you had any thoughts about it?

Happy New Year, Short!

Interview where it is easiest for you. If you aren't going to be able to get up north during the time that they have open for interviews, why not interview in Brasil? (note my local spelling; I took Portuguese in college for one year, and that's about all I learned except how to pronounce feijoada).

If you say you'd be more comfortable interviewing with your own nationality rather than local Brazilians, sure, why not plan a trip home? I heard from some friends who do what I do in Brazil (the wonderful Ricardo Betti), that many of his students make the effort to get on campus because it shows commitment. In your case, you've probably been on campus, so no need to get that under your belt.

Anyway, you'll be fine either way. I hope you hear NOTHING but GOOD NEWS!

dawson:

Hi Betsy,

I have an offer to work at a small early stage venture capital firm straight from undergrad. I am interested in working in VC long term and see this as a good opportunity to do so early on. I also want to go to business school in a few years. I was wondering whether this experience at the unknown VC or if having experience in a more well known IB/Consulting shop then possibly transitioning to VC is better positioning for business school. Thanks in advance!

Hi Dawson,
Congratulations on the offer to work for an early-stage VC firm. You are lucky, not that many students get this opportunity, as you well know.

I sometimes tell people not to over-think the universe. I know that sounds woo-woo, but I think you have a great opportunity to work in a very exciting field. Because the firm is relatively small, you will have opportunity to see and work on things you wouldn't be able to if you were to go to a big firm. You will have a chance to talk directly to clients, get to explore with them their innovative ideas, and add value to the process.

On the other hand, you *may* not be getting the kind of training you would get in a larger environment, such as a well-known investment bank or consulting firm. But, a couple of thingsL

1. You have this VC offer and you don't have an IB/consulting job
2. Business schools are looking for a people with a diversity of experiences and skills
3. You may be competing with your IB/consulting colleagues for the same spot in a business school class
4. MOST IMPORTANT: VC firms uniformly want people with VC experience. Check it out on these forums or elsewhere, so if that's your long-term goal, then take advantage

You may find that you don't even need to go to business school. I am here in the heart of Silicon Valley and I have met young VC analysts who feel like they aren't sure whether spending 2 years and thousands of dollars to go to school to come back and compete for the position they would already have if they had stayed.

And then, to go back to my comment on over-thinking. Sometimes you have to experiment and see what works. You have your whole future ahead of you. How lucky is that?

Let us know what you decide,
Betsy

hedge:

Hi Betsy. Do M7 schools ask/consider in the applications if the applicant is a first generation college grad? For instance, assuming said applicant had a very competitive GPA and GMAT, would a first generation grad be given some "leeway" for attending a good, but not great large state school vs an Ivy or "public ivy" school?

Thanks for all your help!

Hi Hedge, sorry for the delay in response. Had (or still have?) the flu.
I think that everyone, whether they are an MBA adcom or an interviewer for a job, appreciates what it means to be first-generation college. It's a plus no matter what.
I think that there are some misconceptions about attending a state school vs. an Ivy. There's luck involved in a lot of that -- and indeed, if you were first-gen college and attended a state school, you did the most with what you had. I am not sure you get leeway, though. Because MBA programs don't want to fill the class with only Yalies or only people from state schools.

The most important thing is that you made choices in college that show ambition and curiosity. You participated where you could, and yes, if you had t work a 30-hour week to support your family, they consider that too. It's all part of the picture.

From the way you write this query, I am guessing you have ZERO to worry about in terms of where you went to school. Just a guess.

I am going to post this now, but then I am going to try to find the list of schools where HBS or Stanford students attended undergrad. I think it is revealing.

shorttheworld:

Another question! I know adcoms tend to want to hear about big accomplishments to add to your profile -- promotions, new scores or grades, etc -- but what about the startup you work for and are a limited partner of receiving a generous (1mm+) initial seed round? :D is that something you should tell the adcoms? is there a way to phrase it you think?

Do you mean 1)after the deadline? 2)or at an interview? Or 3)if you are on the waiting list?

1. After the deadline, it really depends. Some schools, such as Wharton and Harvard, won't take any additional information after the deadline, so it doesn't really matter if you won the Nobel Peace Prize (although if you did, they might hear about it anyway, so it's kind of moot). Thinking about it more, I think most schools don't want to be bothered after the deadline, and will either brush you off or think mean thoughts about you if you pester them too much.

2. At an interview, definitely, and if you were one of the people who participated in the fundraising, of course you should explain how you helped make it all happen. It's probably a team effort anyway, and your participation in a successful team effort is worth mentioning

3. On the wait list? Sure, why not, if you are polite about it, just an email explaining that the startup you are working for is now a real entity, having successfully raised $1 mm, and you were part of a team that made the successful fundraising. If you weren't really that involved in the fundraising, but you are just trying to make it clearer that your company is on the map, I don't think that's worth mentioning unless you are in an interview situation.

Question: did the money come from a name firm? That helps too.

Junior99097:

Hi Betsy,

I am a Junior business student in Carnegie Mellon.
Here are some of my stats:
gpa: 3.93/4.00
gmat: i've registered to take it this May; how high should i aim for?
internship experience
2013.1~2 JPMorgan Asset Management (Retail sales intern)
2012.5~7 BNP Paribas (Debt capital markets intern)
2009.6~8 The Boston Consulting Group (Research assistant)
2012.Spring~Present Research assistant under a finance professor in my university
2009.10~2011.8 Military service
Publications
I have written a book about the military life, which in sold bookstores in Korea, sold about 500 copies.
Extracurricular, on-campus activities
Codirector of a economics/finance newspaper on campus, subscribed to 60+ finance clubs in universities
2nd place in a case competition (boeing)

As you could see on my resume, I target to work in finance and my primary choice is IBD, although I have not experienced an internship here. I received admissions from Morgan Stanley in Seoul but is not an offer based internship, so I'm looking for other companies with offer possibilities.

Hi Junior, thanks so much for checking in with me on this thread. It needed some bumping up in the queue, so I might have to give you a silver banana!

You have a lot of things going on in your post, and if you don't mind, I'd like to take it in pieces. So; let's talk about your first few lines. The first is that you are at Carnegie Mellon -- a great school, and a challenging one. I know also that when admissions directors consider "target" or "non-target" schools, they are looking for the quality of the academic experience. I think you would agree that a lot (not all) of your classmates are pretty bright, and that, in turn challenges you. And your grades so far look pretty great. I hope you have pushed yourself by trying to take some courses that don't come naturally to you. And as a business student, I hope you are stepping out of th

Junior99097:

As you could see on my resume, I target to work in finance and my primary choice is IBD, although I have not experienced an internship here. I received admissions from Morgan Stanley in Seoul but is not an offer based internship, so I'm looking for other companies with offer possibilities.
1. I guess it may be a little early to discuss my admission possibilities for an MBA, but I would still like to know some possibilities for Princeton and MIT's Master in Finance program. I also am thinking of applying to Harvard's 2+2 program, but I've heard business majors are really difficult to get in.
2. I also would like to know how much it will affect my admission chances if I were to get employed in a Korean domestic Securities/IB firms. It seems to me that even in Korea top BB employees seem to get the highest MBA admissions.
3. What do you think I should do to improve my chances, both in the long run and the short-run, to increase my chances for Mfin and MBA programs? I'm targeting M7 for MBAs, but as of now my primary goal is Harvard. How long should I work? (I graduate in May 2014).
4. What GMAT score should I receive, at least? I guess 750+ is the best, but...
!

Hi again Junior, I said I would finish the rest of your questions, and I'll try to start here.
First, a question back to you, you say your internship is not an "offer-based" internship in Seoul? Not quite sure I follow. I think most important is that you get a job at a firm that makes you happy, especially since you have so many firms already on your resume. Of course, you might be able to remove some later, so it doesn't just look like a string of brand names. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but like I said in my last posting, 2 months only shows you can get in the door. It doesn't show you can add value.

As for your comments about a Master in Finance, check with Illiniprogrammer here on WSO. I believe he is at Princeton. He, and TNA, who advises on MSF degrees (I cannot hold a candle to either of them) know about the program and the job possibilities.
However, if you are interested in investment banking, which is, ultimately, a job about negotiation and deal doing, then the MSF is not really the right ticket. The MSF is more for people who want to do quantitative analysis, probably at an asset management firm.
As for your comment about the HBS 2+2 program, I don't know whether it is harder for a business major to get in. I think that's not really something the admissions committee at HBS thinks about. They like good grades and great scores, but beyond that they are looking for real leadership, like running your own enterprise (for profit or not) while going to school. I know you have performed military service, so that might give you the edge, particularly if you had some professional challenges.

When you say, improve your chances, I guess I need to understand what you mean. To do what?
go into investment banking or go to a name school. The former makes sense, but the latter doesn't give me enough sense of your why or your what. "My primary goal is Harvard" feels awfully shallow to me.
I don't get the sense that you are shallow, so I challenge you to think about what your goal might be (you won't be audited if you change your mind later) and how you are going to gain some real, meaningful experiences that will influence others and your organization.

dinho:

Hi Betsy,
730 GMAT (about to expire so I'll need to take again. Expecting a ~750)

when does it expire? Rather, what date did you take it. Also, just curious, have you waited 5 years? Not that there's anything wrong with having a life. But wondering what made you study and do well for the GMAT and then not do anything with it?

Also, do you speak any other languages or are you multicultural?

dinho:

HAlso got my Masters in Accounting in my 4th year (my masters GPA was also 3.7) and was a 4-year varsity athlete

!

Dinho, I forgot to mention, especially with the conversation going on at the other thread on whether a marathon will make you stand out (probably not). Being a varsity athlete and getting good grades and getting a Masters shows that you have a lot of initiative and can do more than a few things at once -- and with both sides of your brain. I am not saying this makes it all home free, but I do believe this pattern of excellence shows up well.

DoctorAndre:

Hi Betsy,

Just a quick question- how competitive is 2 year IBD stint at Top MM/ BB bank for WE at top MBA schools? Other stats being- internships at F500 every summer starting the summer before freshman year, 3.8+ finance/acct major at non target, 730 GMAT, and good leadership activities in college (treasurer of a major philanthropic event, president/founder of alumni board of HS, college judicial board) Some people on here say that's enough, and some say it's not.

Another follow up question- would 3 year of Financial Leadership Development Program at General Mills be "Better" work experience for B-School than 2 year stint as an analyst if everything else was equal?

Hi Doc, 2 years at a typical finance track is by no means a sure shot, even if all other stats are well within the range. I personally think a 3 year leadership development program is more interesting, and will give you the chance to be a better-rounded candidate, but there are some unknowns, such as: what you would do at either job and how would you stand out?

I think from what you tell me, you need more to make the admissions committee feel inspired by your candidacy. That is, what kind of initiative have you taken to really make a difference. If you are just graduating now and choosing between the two jobs, I say pick the one where you feel you are really going to learn a lot about a lot of things, work on teams, lead teams, and have some impact.

The fact that you have had all those internships means that you have been pretty much of a go-getter, and it probably shows elsewhere (I hope so). I'm not sure that being president/founder of an high school alumni board is what you should lead with. For example, college alumni stuff never really differentiates students; everyone does it. High school is even less differentiating. I kind of like the college judicial board, but it's still not like you have embarked on a startup on the side, which seems to be fairly common these days.

I want to make one more point about targets vs. non-target schools.Some schools I know are more rigorous than others, target or not. Grade inflation is rampant at some schools and not others. Also, admissions people want to know if you challenged yourself in your 4-years at school. Finally, this is especially true for finance majors or engineers, are you interesting?

And here's what I have been seeing a lot of over the past few years: international experience beyond summer travel. Have you lived or worked abroad? Have you operated in a foreign language or culture? If either job you consider allows you to join an international team, that's what will help your candidacy more than job function.

Wow, hope you don't mind my long answer!
Let me know if you have any more questions.

Betsy

Betsy Massar:

FLDP?

do you have a particular investment banking job?

coming from Asia isn't as good as actually working there as an adult, so if you can figure out a way to do some business overseas, and then add another continent into your mix, you have it covered.

Financial Leadership Development Program* at Gen. Mills, as mentioned in the prior post. And the I-Banking summer analyst job is M&A at a top Middle Market bank (William Blair, Baird, Houlihan Lokey)

Follow up q'n about international experience- how about micro-finance trips to a foreign country? I've been a Treasurer and in charge of fundraising for the aforementioned philanthropic group on campus since my Freshman year. So it might go well in with my interest in utilizing my business ability to help non profit organizations.

ARMMonkey:

Hi Betsy,

So, given that I'm a senior graduating in a couple of weeks it probably is a bit too early to be asking for an evaluation of my profile, but I'm curious nonetheless. I'd like to hear your opinion on target schools and things I can do to improve my profile over the next 4-5 years.

Will graduate with:

GPA: 3.58 double major in Economics and Political Science from a large, well-known, mid-ranked, state university.

GPA caveats: Significant upward trend. Last 2.5 years about a 3.8. GPA damage by low grades when studying abroad in freshman year, a couple of low passing grades since then. 3 semesters of calculus with about a B- average. (B,B,C+)

Work Experience: Currently interning and hired full time post-graduation working as financial analyst at a F1000 semiconductor manufacturer.

GMAT: Not taken, but I took the GRE without studying and the conversion table converted it to a GMAT of 680. So I don't think getting 700+ is an unreasonable goal.

ECs: Study abroad in the UK. Volunteer ESL teacher in South Korea for a summer, teaching rural underprivileged kids. English coaching tutor for a year for foreign students in the university's pre-admissions TOEFL test-preparation and English skills program.

Interesting facts: Graduating with my undergraduate degree two years early (age 20) due to excessive amount of community college courses taken in high school.

Interested in General Management/Strategy.

Hi ARM,
First, congratulations on graduating, and I hope you enjoy yourself and take a break. I am glad you are thinking that business school is a 4-5 year prospect for you, because, frankly, you are young and need to beef up your life experiences. Correct that: you WANT to beef up your life experiences. So that's the most important thing you can do. I think starting out as a financial analyst for a semiconductor firm might give you a good point of departure, but if you have a lot of energy, I am guessing you will get bored, so I would suggest going to South Korea or some place to work in a semiconductor company. Not joking! If you did ESL, then you know what it is like to live abroad. Or go to Taiwan, that's a hugely fun place. I lived there for 3 years and had a grand time. Learned more about OEM and original equipment design than I would have ever imagined.

As for the test scores, for the elite schools, you need to get higher than a 700, and go for over 80% on the quant. The GRE is fine, but your GRE quant score needs to be higher than 80% because you are being ranked against humanities and social science majors.

I'm not giving you any ideas about target schools at this stage, because it would be useless without knowing more about you. As you meet people and figure out who you are and what you want, some of it will become clearer -- it's way too early to limit yourself.

Have fun.

Betsy

MFFL:

Hi Betsy,

I know you have said numerous times that getting a 48 or higher on the quant is critical to be competitive at the top programs. I just took the GMAT and got a 760, 47Q 47V, and while I'm obviously pleased with the overall score, the 47Q concerns me. What are your thoughts?

Hi MFFL, Congratulations on a 760! You must feel pretty relieved. That is a terrific number, and normally turns heads at most schools. I go on and on about getting a 48 because it is over 80%, which is the normal threshold. It's a dotted line though; given that you have done so well overall on the test my guess is that you will get the benefit of the doubt. So don't even think about a retake.

The other thing is that the gmat quant score really matters for those who haven't proved that they can do post-graduate analytical work. Now by analytical, I do not mean just using excel. I mean really using critical analytical thinking skills that show rigorous quant skills.

So only if you have only taken humanities courses and are working in, say, theater, would I encourage you to even think twice about the quant score of 47. And even then, I would just encourage one line in the optional essay about your ability to handle the analytical work of a rigorous MBA program.

Does that make sense? Any other questions about the application ? I know that Columbia has already
released their questions, so time to start thinking about the essays -- grrrrrr.

MFFL:

Thank you for your prompt response Betsy. I am still ~2 years away from applying, so that's pretty much the only question I had at this point. Your insight is much appreciated

Very smart that you studied for and took the GMAT well in advance of the application cycle. This will allow you to concentrate on the rest of the process, which requires a lot of project management, networking, and forward thinking. You already show signs of a good candidate; I see a high correlation between those who plan well in advance and those who are successful in their b-school quest.

windycity2000:

Hi Betsy,
I have a IT background, want to apply business school in the 2013 and enter in 2014, or perhaps wait one year. I know there are a number of introduction/outreach events. Do admissions officers take note of the students they meet there? Is it worth it to try to talk to the admissions officer or the alumni there, or just sit in the audience and take notes? Also, what do you think of those big MBA fairs?

Thanks for the question, windycity. Like the previous poster, you are smart to think ahead and plan for your business school application. I've never heard anyone *ever* say, oh, I think I started too early! They always say they wish they had more time to research, network, figure out their own strengths and weaknesses.... the list goes on.

As for introduction events, especially where there is only one or, say, a few schools presenting, is just to listen in. Hobnobbing with admissions types is fine, and makes sense if you have a specific question, but you will get a much better ROI by listening carefully, especially to what admissions officers say in public. They are well-schooled in what message they are sending out to the public, and you can get a really good sense of the way they are trying to present the school to you. It is a marketing exercise for them, and you are the target market.

As for alumni, think about whether they are the kind of people you want to be, or want to work side-by-side with. If you admire what you see, then you are getting good information about the culture of the school. By the way, alums who do not make admissions decisions (and most do not), don't have any idea whether you will get in. In fact, Dee Leopold, ead of admissions at HBS, prohibits alums from talking about the admissions process at her events, saying, "They think they know why they got in, but they may have been admitted in spite of that fact".

MBA fairs are useful for learning about schools in the broadest sense. You may pick up something about a school you hadn't considered. I wouldn't waste a good Saturday or Sunday afternoon though.

Tell me this, windycity, what are some of the goals you have for yourself in going to business school? Thinking of changing out of IT? Many do, successfully. Also, are you thinking of going full-time or part-time?

mba86:

Betsy,

With the unique nature of CBS's admissions process, would admissions be a little put off by an applicant that submitted RD early on (say July/August) so that they would be early in the review order? Would they think the applicant didnt consider CBS a priority choice given they could have easily applied ED?

Thanks.

Hi mba86, thanks for the question on the Columbia Business School admissions process. Quick answer is: don't jump the gun. It isn't necessary to gain advantage.

But you raise a pretty serious meta-question: When should I apply to business school?.
People ask that all the time, and they could mean, what year, or what round, or what month?

Admissions officers world-over will say, "apply when you're ready" -- and then add, "but not Round 3". As for what year, a question you didn't ask, that all depends on whether you are at your own inflection point. But I'll get to that if someone on this thread asks me.

Now, to your point, I am assuming you are not applying Early Decision (ED) to Columbia,because you want to open yourself up to the possibility of a range of schools. (I'm not a fan of a binding early decision process because I do find it limiting and, in investment terms, a weird, expensive option). In short, you want to keep your options open. But you do want to get into the queue early so you get yourself considered before they have already filled half the class, right?

I've emailed someone at Columbia to verify their timeframe, but until I hear otherwise, I think you should wait until after the October deadline for early decision to apply. Simply because your application will not get reviewed until December.

Here's what it says on the CBS MBA FAQ page (http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/mba/admissions/faq):

The Admissions Office will begin reviewing August-entry regular decision applications in December once all required materials have been received. Applications are reviewed in the order they are received.

So if you apply in July, your application is sitting around for 4-5 months before anyone even glances at it. It looks like you want to be first in the queue under the regular decision cycle, but that's outweighed by the additional experience you get on the job. I say this because I am guessing that you are really in the period of your maximum contribution to your firm. Like I started out, it's an inflection point: you want to go to business school when you are ready to move on. From your employer's point of view, you've finished ramping up and are performing well, making a difference, and really contributing. So this next 3-4months could be really interesting, giving you added ammunition to make your case.

I am certain that if you apply in October or even November, you will still be at the head of the long line of applicants, most of whom are reading this forum and wishing they already finished studying for the GMAT.

chaminadems:

Hi Betsy,

Thanks for everything you're doing here! I was wondering if you could take a look at my situation and let me know what my chances are, and what I can do in the next year to improve my chances.

24 year old white male (will be 25 during application season)
Vanderbilt Univeristy
Majors: Economics and History, Philosophy. Minor: Corporate Strategy
GPA: 3.65
GMAT: 730 (97% verb, 73% math)
Work: Interned in risk management and investment management in college. Joined a small but prestigious private bank in NYC in their management training program (very selective, lasted 5 months). Placed in Treasury, rotated around different desk roles in the department, promoted to an officer role after 2 years.
ECs: Ran a student think-tank, was a VP of a student tutoring group for inner-city kids, hired by the school as a writing consultant (all at college). Lead a group in my company to tutor disadvantaged kids, volunteer with my company's official charity group, write about the NBA for ESPN-sponsored websites (outside of college).
Goal: Break into Private Equity by attending a top-ten school. Dream school is Columbia (have very good recs there, including a very charitable/successful alum and a professor at the school). Also looking at NYU. Will apply to Wharton/MIT/HBS/etc but unsure of my chances there.

So I guess I have three questions:
1) Do you think my chances are anywhere near realistic?
2) What can/should I do about leadership roles? I was approached to lead a Toastmasters chapter for our branch here, would that help?
3) I've been tapped by a partner to take a sales role that would start soon - they know and are comfortable with the fact that I'd only be there a year and the fact that I'm applying to bschool - would it be a smart move to take the job? I'm not sure if ad comms would disapprove of the short-term move, or if it would show ambition by taking a lateral job.

Let me know what you think, and thanks again!

Hi Chaminadems, LOTS going on here, so I may answer you in pieces.

First, I've got a question. I had no idea there was a minor in "corporate strategy." Is this new? I don't know if I like it or not, as I view college as more of a place to explore ideas rather than actually be so practical as to learn corporate strategy. So, call me old fashioned -- but I *might* be able to be convinced.

I am going to answer question 1. first -- are your chances anywhere realistic? Since Columbia is your dream school, let's break it down.
You can answer that question yourself by checking out the Columbia school student profile for last year's class:
http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/mba/admissions/classp...

And it looks like you are right in their range, so sure! Your chances from the numbers point of view are fine. Harvard, Wharton and Stanford also have pages of statistics like this, and you will see that you "qualify."
You also look like you have a decent interest in investment management and risk, and have been promoted after a two year rotation. All of that sounds fine, but I'd have to know more about the quality of that work experience -- that is, how did you influence the people around you? You are probably thinking, what a mushy question? But once you "qualify" that's what makes the difference.

Now, this connection with an alum may be of value, as it never hurts, but recommendations are not about glamorous contributors and more about substance. I'm a little nervous with the way you phrased it, but if this person knows you well and has a great insight about your strengths, weaknesses, focus, and contribution to the organization, then that's the most important point.

Back to some of your other questions -- about leadership. Admissions officers look at leadership more as a representation of emotional intelligence. The are less concerned about titles and more concerned about impact. Business schools really care about the components of leadership: influence, active listening, flexibility, and how you incorporate that in your life. So it really doesn't matter if you take on a role as president of Toastmasters -- which is a laudable organization in that it teaches you many of the skills you will need in business and business school. (BTW, I like Toastmasters a lot; and just to name drop, I am in the same Toastmasters club as last year's international president, Michael Notaro.) But just adding that officership is not going to sway the committee one way or another. Rather, I would recommend spending the time going deeper into something you are already very involved in, and see if you can make a game-changing difference. FWIW, it sounds like you already have a decent pattern of involvement during and after college.

I'm going to stop here and let you absorb some of it all. I'll turn to the one-year before business school question next.

Hope this gives you food for thought!

chaminadems:

3) I've been tapped by a partner to take a sales role that would start soon - they know and are comfortable with the fact that I'd only be there a year and the fact that I'm applying to bschool - would it be a smart move to take the job? I'm not sure if ad comms would disapprove of the short-term move, or if it would show ambition by taking a lateral job.

I promised I would come back to this question, despite it being longer than a day or 2.
Now, having read over the question, I think you must take the job -- hope it's not too late for this answer, and I am guessing that others on this site have recommended as much.
I actually don't see any downside. Admissions officers and future employers like it when a candidate is selected out of a competitive pool to do something bigger. If it is considered a step up, then yes, what a great opportunity! Also, you will never regret learning how to perform in a sales job. I've done it -- sold both debt on Wall Street and equity in Asia, and it's a humbling experience. You will learn to think on your feet and and be on the line -- it's really great training. Also, as the front man, you'll also appreciate what it takes for a company to deliver great client service.
I think you were worried about only one year, but the only people who might push against that would be your employer, and if they are aware of your plans, then why not? Or am I missing something here?

chaminadems:

Betsy,

Thanks so much for your great reply. To answer a few of your questions:

Vandy doesn't have a business major or minor.

I actually think that you can learn more about business strategy by taking history and logic courses than business courses as an undergraduate, but I am definitely old school :-)

chaminadems:

Is there any way I can leverage having those contacts (the alum/professor at the school) aside from recommendations?

Just be yourself and talk to them about your goals and see if they can offer insight. Then if they offer to help you with a letter or a well-placed word, or an introduction to someone else, take advantage. Lots of people get letters from high-up connections, and they don't hurt, but why not see if you can leverage the mentor relationship?

chaminadems:

My last concern is about private equity. I know that business school is a great way to meet people in the industry and learn the technical knowledge I'd need going forward, but I don't to get lost among the other people applying for the same reason. How can I recast that in a positive light?

Again, this is personal to me, but I always want to know why someone is interested in PE in the first place. I worry that there's a lot of interest in it because it's vogue, or there are famous rich people doing it. If you can identify the core reason in your heart why you want to be doing this job, why breaking in is so important to you, and what you intend to do once you are in that industry, then your authentic answer will differentiate you.
It sounds foolish to say" I've always dreamed of turning around a company" but if you look back at your life and career, and figured out the steps that make you actually say that, then it isn't a matter of "recasting", but a matter of telling the deep truth about yourself. .That's the interesting part. And believe it or not, that's the stuff that will connect you with the admissions reader.

still owe you the answer about the job change before b-school. Short answer, though: if it is a definite progression up (or forward, or whatever), then do it.

semitar93:

Hi Betsy!

Thank you for doing this-it is very helpful. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to answer our questions.
I'm wondering if I should transfer to an ivy league school in order to get look better on my resume for i banks and, ultimately, MBA programs. I'm going to be a sophomore at a T25 private school (think UVA, Emory, Notre Dame) where I'm majoring in finance and minoring in art history and energy studies. Right now, I basically have a 4.0 GPA and I'm involved in a few clubs that deal with finance and I'm on student government. Would it be prudent to transfer to an ivy league school where there is better OCR/connections? Would it also be easier to get into MBA programs if I transferred even though I have a solid GPA?

The quick answer is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you want to transfer to an Ivy League school because you want to go to a particular school, then do it, of course. But if you are happy where you are and getting a lot out of it, then coming from Emory, Notre Dame, or UVA with a strong GPA and all around profile won't hurt your chances one bit.

I can illustrate this with several anecdotes. Not too long ago I researched the question of "feeder" schools by looking through the list of schools that sent students to HBS. Here's the resulting blog post, http://masteradmissions.com/wp/2013/01/25/feeder-s...

with the punchline that you don't have to have gone to Harvard, Yale or Princeton to get into HBS.

Heck, I went to Vassar, and my best friend from my class went to UMass.

Also, as a coach at Stanford Graduate School of Business, I've seen students from a range of schools --- one that caught my eye was a young woman from an undergraduate school that was barely ranked by US News.
Sure she had a 3.9, and she couldn't write to save her life, but she did fine and was well-regarded by her classmates.

I also know plenty of students from HYP type schools who didn't get into their dream schools even with decebt GPAs. It's really the whole picture.

I do recommend if you do not transfer that you take some kind of STEM course (math or science, not econ) and continue with that A-average. Energy studies sounds a bit like political science (my major) which doesn't prove you can run the numbers like you need to in business school.

cakepie:

Hi Betsy, I have some questions about being admitted as a college senior.

I'm interested in applying to MIT (2 year deferred admission) and Yale Silver Scholars. I think these would be beneficial because they both allow you to gain WE but I'm assuming a very small amount of students are admitted like this.

My stats are GRE: 160Q 162V 5.5 AWA, couple internships with gov and middle office BB, and a 4.0 gpa.

Think I have a shot?

Hi cakepie (nice name!)
You are right, very few students are admitted to these programs, but I can tell you one thing: you are never penalized if you don't get in and apply for regular admission several years later. So, the quick answer is, "why not?"
Having said all that, I think the grades and the GRE scores are pretty much the minimal thing that they are looking for. Who is to sneeze at a 4.0? That's wonderful; it gives comfort to admissions officers and future employers of your smarts and dedication. The GRE is less clear, and they will look at that in conjunction with the kind of quant work you have done undergraduate.
The thing any admissions officer looks for is leadership potential, and to be honest, it isn't clear from what you written here so far exactly what that leadership potential might be. I know that some who do apply to deferred admit programs have already started businesses and non-profits -- those things are kind of in vogue. Or, one story that the HBS admissions director used to talk about, someone who was president of the student government at a Big 10 school (with something like 50,000 students -- it's like being Mayor!). Another student I know was co-captain of her NCAA Division 1 team and competed at the Olympic trials.

Given the small number of places in such a class, and the competition for the spot, it's not a lay-up. It's worth, however, talking directly to people who are involved in recruiting for the program and getting their advice -- admissions officers really want to see people who have done their homework and can make the case that not only will they add to a class in a substantive way, but that they need to be admitted now.

Sir Dancelot:

Can I get general feedback / advice for M7 admission?
One concern I have is that I am getting too old. If I apply this year for a 2014 start I will be 28 at matriculation, which I don't think is old, but for family-related reasons I prefer to apply for the following year when I will be 29. Is that too old for any of the schools? Should I seriously consider applying this year because of the age difference? Any tips or advice I should think about as I consider this?

Hello Sir, and I apologize for taking so long to reply. I tried to have a weekend, and then today I got caught up in deadlines....

OK, back to you. I'm going to focus on the age question, because it is specific, and because your other info seems to be within the range of what most schools are looking for, and I will get to some of that later. Remember, it's not entirely about checking the box, but you did do some stuff that looks pretty good, at least on paper.

But back to the age. Admissions committees are looking more at work experience, rather than age. There's a myth about "oh, I am too old to go to business school", and that not true. It depends on your experience and the quality of your experience, and whether you are at an inflection point in your career, and I cannot answer that, you can.

But, here's the one question from my side -- if you are doing the family business and want to go back to the hedge fund business, and in fact, to go to a more established hedge fund, I wonder if you might get too entrenched in the real estate business. It's just a thought that your jumping off point might be better now than next year -- this is not an age but a work experience thing. If you have 5 years at the family firm rather than 4, and then want to go back to the investment management side of the business, it just needs some explanation and justification. And, you don't want to be on the defensive.

So why not now? Carpe diem and all that?

Betsy

artfuldodger23:

Hi Betsy,

I was wondering why don't top MBAs look "down" upon those who have worked in Big 4 Audit/Tax. I have read a lot on these boards as well as heard from other people that top MBAs don't look for a lot of Big 4 Audit people. Is there a specific reason why or do Top MBA programs look for the individuals with the glorified careers

Hi Art,
I am not really sure that top MBAs look down on those who have worked in Big 4. Are you saying that admissions committee members think that audit/tax at a big 4 is less impressive than another job?
It's really hard to prove, so I am not sure I can answer broadly.
I can say that admissions people look at career progression and influence. If your job in tax/audit influenced your organization, team, client, or, say, a small country in Asia, then in fact, you probably will be considered (if the rest of your profile falls within the normal distribution of admitted students) realistically. If your job is boring and you want to get out and go to business school because your life is a Dilbert cartoon, then you probably won't get noticed.
So, take what you read on these boards with a grain of salt :-), including what you read here. But if you do a LinkedIn advanced search, you will find that each business school within your choice has a good number of individuals who have audit/tax backgrounds. I just did a search under Wharton, typed in Class of '13 or '14, with key words MBA and CPA and found a bunch of students, so it isn't impossible.

Now, if you are concerned about your own candidacy, that's a more interesting and relevant. How can I help you?

mba86:

Hi Betsy,

I had a question regarding letters of recommendation. Seems most of the recommendations ask for a time when the recommender gave constructive feedback and the applicants response to the feedback. For those of us that work in a firm where we really only have one supervisor that is a position where they actually give us feedback on performance (ex. analyst under PM at HF/research associate under analyst for sell side research), how should we approach the constructive feedback question if the second rec is written by someone we worked on a project, but was not necessarily in position where they gave us any constructive feedback (such as helping another sector pm on an analysis occasionally).

Thanks

Hi mba86. Funny, I read this on the plane while sitting next to another admissions consultant, Vince Ricci of VincePrep. He is very cool, and we discussed this question together (two heads are better than one?). We came to the conclusion that you may be construing the phrase, "constructive feedback" too narrowly. You might want to look at the word feedback more broadly. Anyone you work with gives you feedback all the time -- through body language, through any friendly (or unfriendly?) to-and-fro about the work at hand.
The admissions committee members are looking for another opinion outside of just the formal review, but someone who has commented on you in some way. Someone who might have said, "hey, that was a great report, but I would have wanted to see more detail in the way you looked at the competitor analysis." Or, "have you considered doing more public speaking? You are a natural and I'd like to see you interact with clients more."
Anyone senior to you can say something like that -- it's natural. So if you can think about any such interaction with that PM, remind him (or her) of it, and talk it through.
Your next job is to manage the interaction with that PM in a way so that he or she will feel comfortable about couching that interaction in a way that favors you without it sounding too much like boilerplate.

Does that help?

skdude:

Hi Betsy,

I just took the GMAT and got a 710 (44 V/ 43 Q). The quant is 61%, verbal is 97%. While I am happy with the score, I know the quant is a little low so my question mostly pertains to that.

I am graduating from HYPSW with a 3.9 gpa (liberal arts major) and working at MBB. Would I be competitive for H/W/S and other top programs? Thanks!

very quick answer, that quant is a deal-killer, especially with a liberal arts major.
I think it is worth your while to do what you can to prove you can do the quant work. I am sorry I don't have any happier news for you, but it's just too far away from what they admit they are looking for (over 700 AND balanced, which means you need at least a 46 or 47 quant).

TacoBell:

Hi Betsy!

I was curious to know if you could give me advice on what schools I should be targeting. Is Top 5 out of the question? Will my "LGBT" profile make me unique enough for top 5 to overlook my weak GMAT? What schools are realistic, which schools are stretches or slim chances? Is GMAT the deal-breaker for me?

Gay, South Asian, Male

Hola TacoBell, Hate to rain on your parade, but being LGBT in 2013 is not going to give you any edge, nor will it give you preferential treatment. Full stop. I just don't see any way it would matter whatsoever.

the 670 GMAT is on the weak side, so if you can get your score up and make sure quant and verbal are balanced, then you might be in a better position. I think your international experience -- going to school in the US and then Oxford, working in both London and NY makes your profile potentially more interesting, but that's only one piece of it. It's about how you really show leadership at work and how you influence those who work around you. I'll never be able to tell you much about that from a forum, which is why I don't "handicap" or tell you what school is a stretch or not.

I think you would benefit from doing a lot of school research and networking with current and recent students. The summer is a fantastic time to meet up with people between years and really get some clarity of your fit with some of the schools. It's not all about rankings, no matter what people here on WSO say!