IBOers: I want to explore our motivations here, because I think it might bring clarity to readers in general. I want this to be an open-ended general conversation, so please feel free to muse.
Has anyone noticed that this board's conversation often centers around discerning "the best" of whatever: the best suit brands, the best group, the right colors, the right cars, the right style, cuffed or uncuffed, ECM or DCM, product or industry. Rank these groups, these banks, these shirt styles, these schools, these types of girls.
Sociologists would call this norming behavior. As a group, we are searching for consensus even as we strive individually for higher status. We want to be the best; therefore we're desperate to know the rating criteria. Who knows? Does he know? How about her? Who's got the criteria? Which book do I get it from? Even more than being the best, most of us are desperate to not suck and are on the lookout for any suggestions that we do.
Look at this board and its contents. Page through it. There's a whole lot of need here. There's a need to distill general opinions into a crystal-clear ranking system so that we can figure out what our status is and work to better it. There's a need to exert dominance over others. There's a deep and fear-driven status-consciousness. There's a real discomfort with uncertainty.
We want so much for the entire culture of banking to be a ladder we can see, measure, and climb. To a certain extent this desire is mirrored in other areas of life (hell, look at high school culture). However, the status-consciousness seems far stronger in banking-related places like this board.
What are your thoughts, people?
Just realized I need to defuse the automatic defensive posts. The first thing running through many of your minds will be, "But that's not me personally! It's everybody else." No need to say that though, folks; I'm referring to the tendencies of the group of which we are a part. If we were to start pointing fingers and shucking blame, we wouldn't ever get around to talking about the group mechanics, which is what's really interesting about this situation.
Its the money culture, its understandable
It's very true. Also, I think many people in the industry are insecure.
Definitely truth in the statement
It may be easier to recogize this phenomenon at your age, as across greater society as in banking, the thirst for almighty status seems to drop precipitously between our early 20s and late 20s.
You will never see me pay $300 for a bottle of vodka just to sit at some special table, that is only special because of some keen marketer at some club, and I can't help but think the analysts around me doing this sort of thing are douchebags who never had a chance to run with the "in-crowd" in high school, or who would probably rather be dancing in a rap video than winning mandates on Wall Street. You won't see too many VPs and MDs at those exclusive clubs, and they're the ones with the money, so it's a fair assumption that age generally correlates negatively with the thirst for status.
That's because you'll see VPs and MDs doing some time in the Hamptons over summer. They may be dropping the same amount on wine. Also the club scene generally targeted towards a younger demographic.
Oddly enough, there's a VP in my group who loves to talk about how often he drops five grand at Lotus or Marquee partying with Paris Hilton and company. He frequently explains how his plasma TV, car, suit, girlfriend, etc. is "the right" one.
As for me, I'd have to wash the taste of cornpone and collards out of my mouth and ditch my longhaired waiter fiance and all my best home friends who work in retail and construction before I could lay claim to high status. And if I did, fourteen generations of broke-ass white trash would be turning in their graves. At least on this side of the Atlantic.
Nice! We have a lot in common, Mis Ind. I misjudged you from the beginning. I, and many generations before me, come from a working class town in the Appalachians. My grandmother was 25 before she had running water (think: outhouses).
I can relate to your VP about plasma TVs, as could any construction worker who wants to see the Super Bowl, but big 42" to 50" ones are only $1000 to $1500 these days. (Think of one as 3 bottles of vodka!)
As far as fancy cars, I drive a Chevy. Nice suits go with the territory in banking, at least at his level (not mine) so I can't argue with him there.
I do like feeling... important... in this new career choice. As much as I tell myself I am "keeping it real" at home, I like this high class industry to write home about. Maybe that's a wee bit shallow.
Maybe what I hate most about i-bankers thinking they are "better than everyone else" is that it's what I hate most about myself. If it's not status or money, it's intelligence or some other measuring stick that I use to differentiate myself from greater society in my own mind sometimes.
You're right, measuring ourselves versus everyone else is probably pre-programmed into ALL the people crazy enough to look at investment banking. It's just what we are, competitive people who like to win.
I have a friend who's the CEO of a minor broker-dealer. He picks up chicks at nice restaurant bars, not nightclubs, and he brings them to the Hamptons in summer for expensive wine and food. He's 55.
I think forums such as these definitely perpetuate such a mentality.
I know when I was a freshman that just found out about banking, I thought I would be happy to get in anywhere. Over the past couple of years, I have been reading posts on vault (and lately, here), and my perceptions of what's considered "good" have definitely been influenced by what current analysts say.
As an example, when I started researching banking, I never even thought about exit opportunities. However, hearing every single person talk about how great PE is, and how important it is to go to KKR, etc. after banking has changed my thinking. Don't get me wrong, I still feel as though banking is awesome, and am currently planning on making banking into a career. That said, hearing so many people talk about which bank is the best, which group is the best, etc. definitely influences some of the prospective bankers (myself included).
Good thread, Mis Ind.
I hate to hijack the thread, but: To be fair, you were probably just getting a dose of reality when you made that realization. Obsessing over pedigree, suits, and women is one thing; figuring out which banks are good or bad is another.
Today, there are about 10 firms (not all of them BB) that get all the big deals - the rest just run around picking up the scraps. I bet when you were a freshman your idea of investment banking was guys pulling in millions/yr before age 35, taking private jets, and giving their junior employees (analysts, associates) a $70/day meal allowance. Thanks to whoever gave you that wake-up call, you're now aware that that stuff only happens at certain firms in certain groups - the rest are just fakers.
so, a lot of me-me-me with a strong dose of insecurity?
What the fuck are you doing? Collect your bananas somewhere else, faggot.
Miss Ind makes a sad, albeit accurate remark. I find my self to be right in the middle of her analysis. Many probably also find themselves in the middle of her anaylsis. Capitalism is great -i love it. But i think it puts an incredible burden on the one's who choose to actively partcipate and shoot for the top. I grew up in the richest town, in the richest state in the richest country. I go to one of the top 3 schools in the country. If something isnt right, i want it to be. and i will make sure i fight, scream, and cry, figuratively speaking of course, until it becomes right. I have 20" arms, a 50" chest, and a 34" waist. Years of sweat and blood have been dropped to get this body. It needs to be perfect. Everything needs to be perfect. That same desire penetrates every aspect of my world. Nothing will change it. I will keeps ranking banks. I will keep ranking groups. I will keep using D-bol. I will keep shopping for the best clothes. I will keep doing it until I die or until the urge dies, whichever comes first.
and that my friend is why u will always be a closet homosexual
whatever you say. hell, you say it so much, it's like you're willing it.
I find Wall Street culture interesting. It's not as interesting as the culture/mechanisms that control the global black markets, but interesting nonetheless.
The globak black markets. Now they interest me. What personalities control those?
Wall Street is the biggest one around
and some people don't. It seems to me that everyone is insecure at some point in their lives. Some people get over it in high school, some at 30 and some like the 55 year old never do. Either way it is the insecurity that makes us competitive and drives us to do what we do, otherwise I would spend my time bartening on a beach. My parents provided me well and I don't want to be the kid that didn't do as well as his parents (or bettered it). How long this will last I don't know? I mean I am just starting out? Right now my life seems to revolve around where i am working, how much I am making and where I can end up so that I don't get stuck or perform below average.
I don't think this is something that's isolated to banking though. It's everywhere... the white kid that grew up on the mean streets of suburban america that dreams of living a life that is full of lowered impalas with 24 inch rims, cristal and girls in bikinis that only dance in slow motion.. that's a better life for him. The girl who's only ambition in life is to party like Paris Hilton because to her 'that's hot'.. that's what constitutes a better life for her.
I think anyone with half a wit about them strives for better because it's a defining characteristic of human nature. We are never satisfied with our current lot and need more so that we can validate our existence. I know it's materialistic, but how can you expect bankers to know any better. We are our jobs, and our jobs don't provide us with the luxury to be philosophers in search of the greater meaning of existence and happiness. That just wouldn't be 'ballin' enough because no one else can see it, touch it, feel it, taste it or hear it.
So we do the next best thing. Since we can't ground happiness in ourselves, we ground it in other people's perception of us. Doing so creates these norms, these standards that we hold ourselves to. The fratiest subway, nightclub, suit, ... fuck there was a thread on the fratiest chocolate bar. Do I think that it's right? No.. Do I think that it will ever change? No.
The only way I can ever see things changing is if the BBs start recruiting from Greenpeace and Amnesty International... and I don't see that happening soon.
Mis Ind, this is a great thread, I rarely ever post in the clothes/cars/plasma threads because I find it lame and a little girlish to be talking so much about those items. I'm not lieing when I say I've never ever even noticed what some other guy's wearing unless it's a wierd tie or orange shirt or someone that sticks out like a sore thumb.
Most of these banker kids were nerds in high school and college, and when they do become bankers they feel that money can buy them popularity, girls etc. I had MD's that were such insecure dorks that all they ever talked about were the Hamptons/Cape Cod, what the hot clubs were etc It's a sad sight seriously.
Well said, Seanc. Nice to see a sane outlook.
What's ironic is that after a crazy 80 hour week, they have to go to a high-energy place like a club to have a good time. Personally, I'd rather just have a few beers with my friends at home, if they're not working of course. But then again, I probably had more XX chromosomes around me in my youth than these dorks did.
maybe i have this banker psych problem, but i go to high-energy clubs on friday and saturday nights. or maybe i'm just like 75% of straight 23yr old guys looking to score that night.
I don't understand that either, Ahmeng. What I like is a quiet drink at home with a couple of friends and an early bedtime. With some other analysts, I see a frenetic sort of energy that doesn't get satisfied by working... it's as if they have to run wild whenever they get a chance. Not sure what's going on there.
most bankers (who are guys) are looking to unwind after long week at work by consuming lot of alcohol and hoping to find a girl.....clubs are good way of meeting girls
nothing wrong with that....NYC and LA have lot of hot girls....not sure about SF though.
Ah. That would be part of it. If I had to go out and spend money to get laid, I don't know what I would do. That would suck. I still don't think I'd go out, though. I'm too lazy to do anything but go home, jump my fiance, roll over, and go to sleep. No nice dinner, no big bar tab, no call the next morning. Compared to girls, guys are SO easy. And frickin' cheap.
I mean that as a compliment, dudes. I really do.
Hehe, nice one. Your fiance's life sounds pretty good. You pay the majority of the rent, and YOU jump HIM when you get home.
Tell you what, take on me and I'll pay HALF the rent. Although I'm not sure your mysterious fiance exists... once I think you said he was a waiter or something, another time you said you bought him $2700 in i-banking gear. Another time you said he was midget-sized and another you said you are 36-24-37 or so, which would usually make you a few inches taller than him.
Now that I think about it, you're probably a dude. Nah, you know things that we wouldn't know, about a variety of subjects, so I think maybe you've cross-referenced two different fiances from two different time periods, or else you have an unusual untold story to connect these misaligned dots.
At any rate, you sound like the well-grounded type of i-banker that is rare on the Street. Well done, Mis Ind.
It doesn't necessarily have to do with trying to get laid. I have a steady girlfriend and we still like going to clubs from time to time. I would say that 80% of the time we prefer to quietly relax, but sometimes we like going to clubs, dance, drink etc. Not everyone who goes to clubs has insecurities and the "us vs. them" mentality does nothing but aggrevate this perception. If clubs are not your thing then fine, don't go. I get just as annoyed and amused by "big baller analysts" who think they are the shit because they can afford bottle services and were huge tools in college. However, I like going out with my girlfriend or with my friends, and I am anything but the stereotypical banker. If anything, I have been told that I need to get better at shmoozing and be more assholish instead of being so down to earth at all times. The point is to strike a balance, which many people fail to do, because they get so caught-up in the money culture. However, the "hollier than thou" attitude, some people in this thread are adopting, makes you look just as much of a tool as the "ballers".
"Holier than thou" is a bit exagerrated (maybe "less better than everyone else") and I don't think it's too awfully toolish to poke fun at guys buying expensive bottles with girls in hopes that said girls might actually like them after they flash the cash. No one is saying that going to a club with your girlfriend is insecure, but you have to admit that the 75% of guys who are trying to get laid at the "hottest clubs" with the dumbest models are a wee bit insecure by definition.
But none of it really matters in the big picture. Some of the biggest ballers are some of the best people to work with, so don't get me wrong.
dude, stop judging other people. if you want to spend your saturday night feeling secure and playing solitaire by yourself, go ahead. i don't care, and if that's your personality i'm sure your friends preferred you didn't go out to bars with them.
But don't judge people who lead a different lifestyle than yours. to each his own.
My NYSE, lives don't exist in a vacuum. When I met my fiance, he was a waiter. I helped him get a job in a banking-related field after a year or so, which was when I bought him all his suits. After a while of that, I graduated and we came to New York to start an analyst program. He promptly (well, not so promptly) became a waiter again because his company withdrew their offer of letting him work in New York the moment he got here. He had a few more months of waiter misery. Then, last fall, he got a job as an analyst-type excel monkey in the finance division of a big corporation, which is more corporate finance than banking. Hopefully that explains that.
We're both 5'5", and I am 36-24-37. Not to over-focus on the metrics here, but exactly what are you trying to say about my figure versus my height, mister? If you think those hips are too wide for an average-height girl, just take a look at the bosom-waist-hip differentials. It works just fine. Also, 5'5" is no midget. It's a lovely, compact body type, and our equal weights and heights level the playing field for wrestling, sparring, running, and other athletic pursuits, as well as the sharing of shirts/boxers/pants/coats/gloves. Plus, we can pick each other up! Just... not at the same time. Y'know.
I do have ex-fiances (odd guess, but dead-on!), but they're ancient history and don't appear in my posts here.
Jesus, an i-bank withdrew their offer just like that? If it was for any legitimate reason, they should have covered all the bases before making the offer. What a bunch of fucktards. You probably don't want to say which bank it was, but remind me never to apply there.
So I guess what I was implying was that, as it turns out, you have a really great figure for an average-height girl. More bust-waist differential in a shorter height is a positive to most guys, not a negative. Also, my usual assumption is that a girl is a few inches shorter than her boyfriend, but as long as you aren't taller I'm sure it works great. You'll never be able to wear heels, though. Hehe.
"So I guess what I was implying was that, as it turns out, you have a really great figure for an average-height girl." Excellent parry. I accept.
And why not wear heels? It's not as if he feels bad about his height, and in fact he loves it when I put on heels. (Of course, that may be because it brings my cleavage closer to his face.) If guys don't want to date girls who are taller than they are, then what about all the average-height guys with the 6'2" supermodels?
The company that withdrew their offer wasn't really an i-bank... I feel more comfortable calling it a financial firm. It was also relatively small, so the offer to move to New York was direct from the CEO... an offer which he later claimed never to have made. Easy as that.
And they WERE a bunch of fucktards. The CEO actually bought himself a nightclub so he would have someplace to go on Saturday nights and get a velvet rope set up around him. Said CEO also bought himself a lavish Miami party pad... and is paying for it with an interest-only mortgage. He also once poured a bottle of vintage Dom all over my fiance. The indignity to my fiance is one thing, but it should be a crime to waste good Dom that way.
I've been trying to muster a response to this one parenthesized comment off and on for like half an hour. Maybe I just won't.
You've got me, I have no idea! I'm average guy height and you won't see me with a 6'2" girl anytime soon, unless she's wicked smart and talks about interesting things. Then I probably wouldn't care how tall she is. But models don't talk about interesting things. All else being equal, 6'2" is a negative.
On the one hand, I can't blame analysts for hitting up the hottest clubs trying to pick up chicks, what normal male wouldn't ? We'r all 21-24, we won't live like this ever again, so might as well have as much fun as possible.
On the other hand, my problem is with those lames who spent their friday nights at the library in College and now that they're earning some money, their head swells and they think they're players.
It's almost unbelievable how many guys of this sort I've encountered in NYC.
News Flash: You're not a player. Money won't make you a baller in NYC, only confidence and experience will.
I agree with almost everything you said Seanc. The first paragraph though, for me, and this is probably ususual, I probably wouldn't want to date girls I meet at the hottest clubs. They're usually Jersey Girl gold-diggers or they're spoiled ass rich kid trust fund babies. Either way, I'd just abhor them. Or the aforementioned models who can barely.. barely... spell their first name when called on it.
My background is such that until very recently I've had a girlfriend since 2001, over 5 years. And another long-term relationship for 2 years before that, and one for 2 years before that, and one for 2 years before that. So I'm not hip to the best places to pick up the best chics really. Is it that obvious?
But if the current relationship is truly over, I wouldn't pick up girls at the hot spots discussed here. I'd go looking for girls who come alone to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on a weekend. That's the type of nerdy cultured girl I really dig. Glasses and all. It would help if she were an i-banker chic with some actual culture (the last one was just that), but I'd settle for a girl of the "creative class" with the culture which generally goes along with that territory.
As for entertainment beyond the bottles, besides the myriad of museums (hey, the bank is paying right?) we have generally gone out to Broadway shows and such. Done the street fairs in Little Italy and those seemingly three-times-a-year New Year's celebrations in Chinatown with the dragons and Chinese lions. Not often bars, but sometimes. Not really clubs. Unless friends are in town. Is that lame? Probably. But I dig it, and so far the chics do too. Now that I may be single again, maybe things will change.
But if I ever find the time, you'll find me smoking a cigar on the high seas with the Queen Mary 2 when I finally splurge. I yearn for those classic days of yore when one retired after dinner with a cigar and a brandy, preferably seperated by one's sex, to play card games (not solitaire though) and have meaningful conversations. Where are those days now?
Today even gentleman-class i-bankers are sometimes reduced to the lifestyle of inner-city cultureless gangster rappers. Having a topless dancer bounce to Ludacris at a Roth Capital party. Nothing against the inner-city folk but I like to think that if someone could show them the way to a more cultured life, they'd change their perspective.
Why are gentlemanly i-bankers trying to be more like gangsta rappers, when gangsta rappers should be trying to be more like gentlemanly i-bankers?
--
My 2cents. Subconsciously it's done to reinforce one's identity. The expensive car, tv, house, picking up women through $$ or whatever thing that screams out saying those things, possessions, actions and accomplishments say I'm a winner. To the person who said there's a negative correlation between age and this phenomenon I think is correct...in general, as we age, our identity solidifies.
oh, im sorry, you've been around that many models to know? my mistake.
You don't have to look at it as your mistake, because I neglected to mention it above, but I've actually been around more models than has the Average Joe and through no fault of my own. Maybe not as many as a baller has and no, not by dating them. A gay friend of mine (yes, I said GAY) in the fashion industry, who I lived with briefly (don't even think it!) used to bring his work home with him. Not particularly educated or interesting people, those models.
Pretty average, but at least usually foreign (Brazilian mostly) so that's one element to differentiate them from your average mindless boring person. But maybe you enjoy conversations about how much someone loves really tight fitting jeans and how they make their ass really look great. And then that same type of thing re-worded 50 different ways over the course of two months.
And yes, this fellow being who he is, that meant male models followed him home as well as female ones. Ick.
"I yearn for those classic days of yore when one retired after dinner with a cigar and a brandy, preferably seperated by one's sex, to play card games (not solitaire though) and have meaningful conversations. Where are those days now?"
My problem is that when the sexes are separated after dinner, by far the most interesting conversation is taking place at the dinner table with the brandy/port/cigars than in the drawing room with the women and their damned cordials. One reason I'm glad for the current laxity in social structure is that I can take brandy and tobacco with the gentleman rather than be suffocated by ladies with their catty, loaded, too-friendly conversation. What good is a lady nowadays? Even gentlemen don't seem to like them anymore, and there's no room for a lady to exercise her appetites in the ways that men do.
I largely share your point of view, NYSE... as long as I am granted (as I usually am) honorary gentlemanhood. Ladies are damned dull creatures.
Vineyard Vines Ties.. Ballin
How very topical.
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