Barcap Vs Citi

sternANDbern's picture
Rank: Chimp | 7

I know, I know. Everybody hates these comparison posts but I go to a southern school where there's not much available experience on IBD.I'm looking at summer associate offers and am interested in M&A. Both firms give summer offers followed by a matching process sometime in April.

I'd like to compare the firms along the following dimensions:

  1. strength/prestige of M&A practice (integrated groups and exclusive sales vs Citi M&A)
  2. future potential/growth of groups over next few years
  3. full-time comp (does barcap face british restrictions)
  4. PE exit ops

Comments (58)

Jan 22, 2011

you should check out the thompson reuters 2010 tables. It ranks market share by area and sector etc. for example
North America M&A Citi was 5th with 5.3% and Barclays 7th with 4.7%.. Also this year Citi was -15.2% in overall fees and Barclays gained significantly with 25.2%

Historically Citi is a lot better too with deal flow and fees. Also on here I've read that Citi M&A has pretty good exit opportunities for P/E, but I can't confirm this.

Jan 22, 2011

In the Thompson tables, Citi is higher in global rankings and Barcap is higher in the US. Should I be just worried about the US?

Jan 22, 2011

I am only a future analyst so my opinion is based on historical information and hearsay, but I would personally take Citi over Barclays. In 2005-2007 Citi was an Ibanking machine. I think Citi will rebound very strongly.

Also other tables I've seen for 2010 (like by bloomber/ft etc) had Citi in the 5th ahead of DB etc. so there are some discrepancies in the fee totals

Jan 22, 2011

I wouldn't lean too heavily on league tables in selecting a bank...go with fit and strength of group. You say your are at a southern school but are you recruiting for ny? I assume so because for regional groups (e.g Houston/energy) offers have already gone out and there will be no matching (bar cap could be an exception as i think they fill from a summer associate pool regardless of geography)

Jan 23, 2011

Pardon the ignorance, but what does "matching process" refer to?

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Jan 23, 2011
A Posse Ad Esse:

Pardon the ignorance, but what does "matching process" refer to?

This is referring to what is also commonly called a "sell day" ... basically candidates will receive generalist offers into the Analyst/Associate class, and then they will meet with the various groups and rank their choices as the groups simultaneously rank candidates. Then candidates will be placed into groups based on synchronicity...

Jan 23, 2011

Both have their own strengths but if you're looking for M&A, Citi wins hands down. As has been said they used to be a machine when it came to M&A and held a top 3 spot, they should be back there shortly.

That said, BarCap has some very good groups as well, for example their Nat Res group has strong PE placement.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

Jan 23, 2011

Echoing everyone else, Citi over barcap for sure. alot stronger AND barcap has LAYOFFS. Also top PE recruiters both IRL and on this board have confirmed Citi groups like M&A to be top targets.

Barcap is a lower BB while Citi will rebound back to top 3 M&A.

Jan 23, 2011

Oh goddammit, I was gonna ask if it was similar to a sell day. Alright, thanks.

Jan 22, 2011

Thanks for all the awesome advice. I get the feeling that Citi will have a faster rebound in M&A while Barcap will probably just maintain its rank over the next few years.

BTW those layoffs weren't anything special, just the yearly trimming of the herd.

Jan 23, 2011

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me." - Malone

Jan 23, 2011

not sure about the strength of practices and growth opportunities and all that... but you mentioned exit opps to PE and in that area I'd say you'll be better off at Citi. You don't see nearly as many people out of barclays in PE as you do out of citi.... maybe just because it's smaller, but even so.

Jan 23, 2011

Any idea what exactly you will be doing in either company? Do you know if one is for a trading desk and the other IBD, ect?

If would say that the offers are about the same and that I would go with Citi because they could be expanding in the next few years and there should be a better opportunity to move around (they took 94% of SA this Summer).

Jan 23, 2011

Well, I don't know exactly where I will be placed, but both are roughly 2 year (I think 18 months) analyst programs. I'm pretty sure Barcap is a rotational program and Citi is not, but I'm still waiting on the paperwork to iron out the details. Only thing is, I need to give a decision to both by next Friday (the 12th).

Jan 23, 2011

What's the pay

Jan 23, 2011

Both fucking suck.

Prison rape vs Street rape ---> Which is better?

Ops will bore the living hell out of you. Ops is a great career, but not for someone who is motivated enough to be part of this site. I suggest you accept the position, but turn up the networking intensity 100x and if you dont get anything in 6 months just quit.

Honestly, I would respect someone working the night shift in a factory and networking / interning during the day to get FO more than I would BO.

Jan 23, 2011
Anthony .:

Both fucking suck.

Prison rape vs Street rape ---> Which is better?

Ops will bore the living hell out of you. Ops is a great career, but not for someone who is motivated enough to be part of this site. I suggest you accept the position, but turn up the networking intensity 100x and if you dont get anything in 6 months just quit.

Honestly, I would respect someone working the night shift in a factory and networking / interning during the day to get FO more than I would BO.

To all readers who are not in the know, Anthony has first hand experience with the Street Ass Rape, and he gets very emotional when people bring it up. While I echo Anthony's sentiments, I suggest you keep networking while keeping the BO job. If after say 6-12 months nothing pops, you may quit and start to intern for free at some location.

In the beginning, It's better to be on the street than fucking making it.

Jan 23, 2011

You said you would never tell anyone about it Gekko! What happens in jail stays in jail bitch!

Jan 23, 2011

uhhh, take ops rather than working for free. terrible advice.

i'm sure it is easier to network internally or even externally as a full-time employee rather than a random unpaid intern/volunteer at a random boutique.

Jan 23, 2011
guts:

uhhh, take ops rather than working for free. terrible advice.

i'm sure it is easier to network internally or even externally as a full-time employee rather than a random unpaid intern/volunteer at a random boutique.

You realize we said that, but there may come a time when he has to intern for free inorder to get a better job and then he would need to quit.

  • eyelikecheese
  •  Jan 23, 2011

Ya man Ops is where dreams, motivation, and hard work go to die.

Jan 23, 2011

anthony get off your high horse. you're not in ibanking either and have no right to make fun of ops kids. i'm doing banking at CS so i can make fun of you and ur advice sucks.

Jan 23, 2011
lindamas:

anthony get off your high horse. you're not in ibanking either and have no right to make fun of ops kids. i'm doing banking at CS so i can make fun of you and ur advice sucks.

Please do make fun of me, I could give a shit. I worked in ops very briefly and it does suck. Go do a search and I think you will find that my opinion is commonly held by those working in ops or those who have worked in ops.

Networking while working in ops really only works if you want to be a trader. It is incredibly hard to break into banking that way. If you want to be in IB don't take ops, take something else that has related skills.

Ops is a fine position if you just want to do 9-5 and leave. This is a Wall Street forum where people come to talk about banking, trading etc. If you want to work in ops and just chill this isn't the place for you.

Jan 23, 2011
Jan 23, 2011

Even if that's true, the guy says he has these two offers. why would he choose unemployment rather than work at operations?

Jan 23, 2011
lindamas:

Even if that's true, the guy says he has these two offers. why would he choose unemployment rather than work at operations?

If he wants to work in ops fine, go do it. If you want to work in banking get a night job and intern or take another job in something related.

Listen, when I sign onto this site I am under the assumption people are coming on here looking to break into banking or S&T, whatever. Something capital markets. When someone posts a thread about ops my automatic thought process is that they are only taking it because they want to break into something else.

Ops sucks. Flat out. If you want to be in banking ops is the last thing you want to do. My advice is sound and holds. Take a look at all the threads with people who eventually broke in. It is a long fight, a bitch. Once you start working in ops or whatever you cannot network the same, your resume takes on a different form, you cannot intern, etc.

Shit, I never even had a desire to work in banking and ops sucks. Even as far as a job goes, for people with no clue about banking, ops is a grind.

If it is between starving and being homeless and working, of course, take the job. If you have aspirations for something else and can afford to hang in there I would look at other opportunities. My advice might be dick, but it is based off of experience.

Jan 23, 2011

To answer the OPs question, go with Goldman ops. If you apply to another job most places will just get blinded by the Goldman name, no matter what you are doing.

Jan 23, 2011

most people cant afford to intern for free . honestly i never could not even in college.

Jan 23, 2011
afalcon10:

most people cant afford to intern for free . honestly i never could not even in college.

No doubt, interning for free is tough. Unfortunately it will greatly improve your resume and allow you to intern at places during the year or off cycle. Life isn't fair and this is another example of that.

Jan 23, 2011

I myself have an offer for BB Operations. Debating whether I should take the offer or not since I don't have any other offer and I don't want to be unemployed. Honestly tho I did have a thought of going into securities operations and network to get into trading..but I guess that would be extremely difficult with all these readings.

Jan 23, 2011

Getting into trading is a lot easier than banking. If you have no other options and need to survive take the job. I am not advocating being homeless and starving.

Jan 23, 2011

Honestly, I see all the debate with Ops not really being a great place, especially if you want to get into ibanking. However, I believe I have the GPA, intelligence, and motivation to get into an ibanking position, just not the right place to start to immediately get in. I've had internships and am extremely happy with the two offers to get my foot in the door, and I know it can be boring, but I'm in the place I want to be (banking in NYC).

Besides all that, I'm asking if anyone has legitimate opinions on Citi vs. Barclays as companies in general, the ops program in specific, and why one would be a better place to start as opposed to another. Any thoughts on that, and not the whole "don't do ops" argument going on? Thanks.

Jan 23, 2011

You arent in banking in NYC, or at least you aren't in banking.

It pisses me off how people who think they work in Goldman Sachs ops or JPMorgan retail banking think that they are better than the other ibanks. You arent in banking plain and simple.

Jan 23, 2011

The name on the business card doesn't mean anything.

Jan 23, 2011

Ok, regardless of if I'm going to be in banking or not, I just want to talk about my real question. I apoligize for being politically incorrect with all of this, but back to the question.

Citi or Barclays Ops and why? And please don't say neither.

Jan 23, 2011

Which place do you like the people more? Both jobs will involve clearing something, processing something, etc. Go with the place that a) pays more or b) has better coworkers.

  • eyelikecheese
  •  Jan 23, 2011

The best advice is to truly not do ops. It doesn't matter if it's Goldman ops or BNY ops. The culture of the bank has nothing to do with the ops department. The ops departments are their own culture in general, which is older people with no Ambition, no bonus, and working 40 hrs a week doing nothing whatsoever of value. Just go with whichever pays more,the work will be redundant, repetitive, monotonous etc etc. You saying you have the motivation, gpa to get out of ops will not help you. No1 in ops cares about your gpa or how motivated you are, as there is absolutely no way to differentiate yourself based on personal performance, so don't rely on that at all. Take the offer, don't spend the signing bonus as you will want up quit and pay it back regardless, and start networking/looking for something else immediately. An not when you start the job immediately, like asap I mean. Trust me man, you are going to wish you'd taken this advice of Anthony's instead of signing that

Jan 23, 2011
eyelikecheese:

The best advice is to truly not do ops. It doesn't matter if it's Goldman ops or BNY ops. The culture of the bank has nothing to do with the ops department. The ops departments are their own culture in general, which is older people with no Ambition, no bonus, and working 40 hrs a week doing nothing whatsoever of value. Just go with whichever pays more,the work will be redundant, repetitive, monotonous etc etc. You saying you have the motivation, gpa to get out of ops will not help you. No1 in ops cares about your gpa or how motivated you are, as there is absolutely no way to differentiate yourself based on personal performance, so don't rely on that at all. Take the offer, don't spend the signing bonus as you will want up quit and pay it back regardless, and start networking/looking for something else immediately. An not when you start the job immediately, like asap I mean. Trust me man, you are going to wish you'd taken this advice of Anthony's instead of signing that

I agree with this 100%, unfortunately, from personal experience. I'm in ops; if you have even a shred of ambition, you'll notice immediately this place is where all good things go to die (think: "corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking, just a moment!). If you like to talk about so and so's kids graduating and various other old people shit, you've come to the right place. After I put in a year in my current position (for various reasons), I am getting the fuck out of here. Dude its miserable, you have NO idea. I'd recommend taking either offer though, better than being unemployed and starving (plus it would leave a gap on your resume). Easier to get hired when you're actually working. And while you're there, make friends with everyone. You never know if you'll meet someone from FO/MO that crossed into ops because he/she had kids or whatever and needed a better work/life balance (AKA this person is a networking goldmine).

Jan 23, 2011

congrats

Jan 23, 2011

I agree with above posts. I worked in ops for a brief period too....had to dig my way out. Find every opportunity to finally land an Ibanking gig at a boutique. Ops will just bore the hell out of you after few months, there is no drive, and all the people working around there in ops are freaking unintelligent. But to the OP, I would chosee BarCap over Citi.

Jan 23, 2011

BarCap ops must be legit.... they rejected me for an interview even though I got interviews with a bunch of other banks for FO positions (and trust me, its not like my resume screams "too good for ops").

I actually know a couple of people that switched over from trading ops to sales or trading at Barclays though, so maybe its more of a possibility at BarCap? I think a lot of it depends on what group within ops you get placed into.

Jan 23, 2011

Y'all are making it seem like doing Ops. is worse than a job at McDonalds...

Jan 23, 2011

barcap is firing, go with citi cuz its expanding.

Jan 23, 2011

Firing happens at a lot of places. You can't predict what happens next year. I doubt barcap will fire till next summer lol. What is your basis on citi expanding? And how does Citi's expansion even effect ops role? It's not like he is going for IBD or S&T where expansion will have an effect. Plus is focusing its expansion primarily in Asia, not U.S.

Jan 23, 2011

they both suck i actually dont care what he picks. ops is a deathtrap, anthony's right i'm just giving him a hard time and wanted to throw in that i'm diong BANKING IN CS YEA WOOO

Jan 23, 2011
lindamas:

they both suck i actually dont care what he picks. ops is a deathtrap, anthony's right i'm just giving him a hard time and wanted to throw in that i'm diong BANKING IN CS YEA WOOO

LOL. Congrats.

Yeah, Ops is tough to enjoy.Go watch office space repeatedly to prepare yourself.

  • eyelikecheese
  •  Jan 23, 2011

I'd advise having repeated screenings of office space with kids from the local junior college repeatedly. That should give you a more accurate sense.

Jan 23, 2011

why is this lindamas guy so proud of his banking gig at cs?

Jan 23, 2011
afalcon10:

why is this lindamas guy so proud of his banking gig at cs?

It is a she, which means she is just that much closer to being a prestige whore. Give it two years and she'll marry the senior VP and start popping out kids.

Jan 23, 2011

if you go to a target, working at a bb is pretty much the norm - everything is set up to place you into a firm like CS with only a moderate level of effort.

Jan 23, 2011

is ops a good choice if you want a decent lifestyle and just stay in one place instead of looking at exit opps? I'd imagine it to be a relatively unstressful career, and while not as great for switching jobs I see people in fund accounting, administration, tech who are very happy with their jobs and was wondering if ops is similar.

Jan 23, 2011

Thanks anthony. I worked hard to get it.

and sum41fan: lots of females go into ops for work life balance. I have many friends who don't mind the job. But if you want to be rich or intellectually stimulated at all, don't do ops. its always sad when I meet guys on the street and realize i make way more than them and they are in ops. Don't let this guy be you. I ridicule them mercilessly.

Jan 23, 2011
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  • eyelikecheese
  •  Jan 23, 2011
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Jan 23, 2011
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