BB PWM or Boutique IBD?

wosvox's picture
Rank: Senior Monkey | banana points 98

Hey all,

I'm trying to finalize my plans for this summer. Just a little background, I'm a first year student (non-target) that is heavily leaning towards banking. I just wanted to ask how much value would a gig at a BB PWM (GS, JPM, MS type) provide over a boutique IBD shop (FIG focused boutique). I realize that BB names carry a lot of weight and could open up opportunities to network inside the firm. However, PWM seems to be a common and almost over-used path to banking. Would a boutique be better/offer more value in this case?

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Comments (147)

Mar 27, 2014

Since you're a first-year student and you have three summers free to do internships/study abroad, I would do the PWM this summer. At the least, it will give you exposure to another type of financial services. When you do end up as a SA for an ibank, you will have something to compare the experience to and know whether banking is right for you.

Just my two cents.

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Mar 27, 2014

When you say BB PWM are you talking about an internship at a MS FA branch office?

If you're interested in banking then absolutely take the IB gig. There are tons of kids going into their soph/junior year with PWM experience, but only a minority who have banking experience. It'll absolutely make you stand out.

Mar 28, 2014

Lets say its not MS.

Mar 27, 2014

take boutique IBD

"Success means having the courage, the determination, and the will to become the person you believe you were meant to be"

Mar 27, 2014

I'd do the banking route. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen, PWM offers little to no ability to network with real bankers in IBD and in fact most people look down on PWM. With the boutique IBD role, you'll have better experience and opportunity to land a BB internship the next year. That said, I think that TheDiscountRate makes a very good point that a PWM role will get you exposure to something else which is good. IBanking isn't for everyone so having a different perspective is valuable.

I'd still go with the boutique IBD role (I'm also assuming this is something like Moelis, Lazard, PJS, etc)

Mar 28, 2014

No this is not EB. Not a micro-boutique as they do have more than one office in different cities. FIG focused.

Mar 27, 2014

if top BB, id say take PWM, network there as it will be hard to get a summer anyway, but you will at least have better contacts and proven worth (well in a way)
top brand such as GS will open bunch of doors
and PWM is not bad job either

kill the internship of course

p.s. i am assuming that the boutique is a no-name

Mar 28, 2014

This depends on the boutique, are we talking a solid 20+ man shop that has decent deal flow or a 5 guy shop that occasionally does a 5mm sellside transaction? Is the PWM a paid role in a major city? I'd personally lean towards IB, but it is difficult to say without more details.

Mar 28, 2014

@jkim3381
I understood you to mean that you were weighing a top BB PWM internship versus a boutique IB shop. No disrespect to anyone working at a boutique, but it seems to me that bulge bracket banks really perk up when they see another BB name on a resume.

This guy/girl has two more shots at getting a summer internship in IBD... If it's not an elite boutique I really would go with the variety and name.

It would help if you mentioned what cities the internships are in, and the stature of the boutique. If the PWM is in a financial city, there is no excuse to not use it as a 10-week networking opportunity with every bank that has an office there. Also, what kind of "non-target" are you at? There's a difference between UNC and UIU, and this would impact how hardline your push for a 1st-year ibd internship should be.

Mar 28, 2014

@TheDiscountRate

Well, the name certainly carries a lot of weight. However, PWM just seemed very common and quite frankly a BS internship (I absolutely mean no offense to anybody in PWM). Let's assume that I would be doing more banking related things at the boutique, would the brand name outweigh actual experience in banking?

Mar 28, 2014

You didn't mention the locations of the jobs, but.. A PWM internship isn't easy to get. Especially at a top bank.

I just think you are going to get sick of banking before you ever start full-time.

@Khayembii made a good point about PE, but... coming from a non-target, it's my opinion that even with IB internships on your resume (unless they're EB or BB) it will be a hard sell.

What kind of non-target are we talking about here..?

Mar 28, 2014
TheDiscountRate:

You didn't mention the locations of the jobs, but.. A PWM internship isn't easy to get. Especially at a top bank.

I just think you are going to get sick of banking before you ever start full-time.

@Khayembii made a good point about PE, but... coming from a non-target, it's my opinion that even with IB internships on your resume (unless they're EB or BB) it will be a hard sell.

What kind of non-target are we talking about here..?

Yeah but my thinking here is that they take the boutique banking SA, which sets them up for a BB SA the following summer. Once you have that on your resume the school isn't going to be as big of a deal. If they can't get into PE right out of ugrad they can just get a FT analyst stint and leverage that. Not a given but not necessarily a hard sell; just depends on the timing.

Mar 28, 2014

Both roles are located in NYC. Keep in mind, I am still a first-year student. As of now, my goal is to break into BB IBD after undergrad. As a non-target I am sure it's impossible to break into PE (or at least MF PE) but I'm in the process of transferring to semi-target schools. As for my current school, it's certainly not super non-target as we do have a very few that do go to BB IBD. Only a few though.

Mar 28, 2014

Anything is possible, but it is unlikely you will out-compete the best the targets have to offer for a MF spot. I have to admit @khayembii likely has more knowledge about PE recruitment though.

If you don't plan to do a study abroad summer, I'd go to the pwn internship, apply for EB's and BB's, and then the following summer do whichever of the two you did not do the previous summer. So, you'd have experience in PWM, EB, and BB, and you'd have a great idea of what you want to do as a career (or at least out of college).

However, I'm absolutely willing to admit that being at a non-target makes it hard to get an IBD SA offer. So if you want the least risk, go for the boutique provided they actually do deals and have 20+ employees. Especially since it's in NYC.

Mar 28, 2014

@TheDiscountRate

Definitely true about PE MF recruiting. As for the summer of sophomore yr, is it even possible to apply for EB, BB IBD? To my knowledge, EB and BB SA are reserved for incoming seniors. However, there is this one kid I know that is doing SA at a foreign bank for the summer of his sophomore year (incoming junior).

Mar 28, 2014

I also want add something else. Would a banking summer gig look unusual for a freshman? I feel like going to PWM as a freshman would look more natural (albeit overdone). On the same note, I feel like I would be able to tell a story about how I progressed towards banking better with a PWM role compared to jumping right into banking. Anybody want to chime in on the "story" part of these internships? From what I know, getting that "story" perfect is pretty important for the interviews.

Mar 28, 2014
jkim3381:

I also want add something else. Would a banking summer gig look unusual for a freshman? I feel like going to PWM as a freshman would look more natural (albeit overdone). On the same note, I feel like I would be able to tell a story about how I progressed towards banking better with a PWM role compared to jumping right into banking. Anybody want to chime in on the "story" part of these internships? From what I know, getting that "story" perfect is pretty important for the interviews.

Why would you think having some kind of story about transitioning into banking is better than just going straight into it, if that's what you want to do?

Deal experience is what matters the most if you want to go into banking, and you're not going to get that in PWM. If you think you'll be able to work a deal at this bank, then do it. Next summer you'll be competing with summer internships at BB's with people who worked in BB PWM and had absolutely no deal experience. You'll stick out, in a good way. Also, it can help you jump over to PE sooner, though not at a mega fund.

Mar 28, 2014
Khayembii:
jkim3381:

I also want add something else. Would a banking summer gig look unusual for a freshman? I feel like going to PWM as a freshman would look more natural (albeit overdone). On the same note, I feel like I would be able to tell a story about how I progressed towards banking better with a PWM role compared to jumping right into banking. Anybody want to chime in on the "story" part of these internships? From what I know, getting that "story" perfect is pretty important for the interviews.

Why would you think having some kind of story about transitioning into banking is better than just going straight into it, if that's what you want to do?

Deal experience is what matters the most if you want to go into banking, and you're not going to get that in PWM. If you think you'll be able to work a deal at this bank, then do it. Next summer you'll be competing with summer internships at BB's with people who worked in BB PWM and had absolutely no deal experience. You'll stick out, in a good way. Also, it can help you jump over to PE sooner, though not at a mega fund.

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Mar 28, 2014

Is the fig group sandler? If so take it for sure.

Mar 28, 2014

To me this is a no brainer. Absolutely take the boutique IB, assuming it's not a 2-man shitshow. Then for your soph summer, apply to the BB/EBs. If you don't land a BB/EB gig as a soph, try to get another boutique IB internship and go for it again junior year.

It would be completely absurd to pick PWM over IB if your end goal is IB. I had PWM experience with a 3.8+ at a target and barely got any interviews for SA. The kids with 3.8+ and boutique IB experience got all the interviews.

Mar 29, 2014

This shouldn't even still be up for debate.

Boutique IB.

Mar 29, 2014
GrandJury:

This shouldn't even still be up for debate.

Boutique IB.

This. Honestly, it doesn't matter if PWM is at GS; PWM is PWM. Banks give a lot more shits about what type of role you work in before your junior summer rather than the brand name of the institution if it's only in something like PWM. I worked at a boutique my sophomore summer, and I had no problems at all landing BB jobs my junior summer, even with a below average GPA.

The benefit of the boutique bank is twofold:
1.) You understand--even if at a superficial level--what the fuck banking actually is. If you're lucky, you'll see a deal in some stage or another; even if you don't, learning by osmosis is pretty valuable for a freshmen. You'll understand the different parts of the job, and at least become familiar with key concepts in banking. That is way more valuable than any PWM job, even if it's at GS/MS etc. And keep in mind, this is your freshman summer! That'll give you such a heads up next year for summer recruiting.
2.) It makes it so easy for you to answer the "why banking" question. So many people get tripped up on this - they don't have a good reason for going into banking other than money/prestige or the ever favorite "I am detail oriented and love to be challenged and learn fundamentals of corporate finance and I think banking would help me do all of that right out of college." Having worked at a bank already, you can tell them what specifically you liked doing and what more you'd like to learn. It makes you a much more engaging candidate.

Hope that helped. Let us know what you decide!

dollas

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique IB for sure.

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique IB. You might be tempted by the brand name of the BB PWM, but every MD/important person in the BB IB hiring process knows the BB PWM experience is not relevant.

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique IB. Literally anyone can get pwm

Mar 29, 2014

I work for a BB in PWM and can tell you firsthand that our internships are bullshit. go with IB.

the sole exception is if you're doing private banking at a firm like JPM, Goldman, CS, or DB. those internships are more like IB and more structured so the experience will be better than say if you're a "global wealth management intern" with Merrill Morgan or UBS.

edit: @"rogersterling59" please factcheck me, want to be sure I'm giving OP accurate info about PB.

Mar 29, 2014

This is correct. My bank's (one of the 4 mentioned) PB internship program is incredibly robust, pays the same as IB/S&T, and in addition to the work you are doing has an incredible number of market-oriented teach-ins and senior speakers from the firm and what not. My internship with my bank was so impressive, it is the reason I decided to join full time.

Given that his is your sophomore internship however, I would assume you are talking PWM, not PB. If you want to do BB IB definitely do the boutique internship. I feel that with your sophomore internship, what you learn matters more than name recognition. The fact that you gain modeling experience and the like at the boutique will resonate with a BB IB recruiter far more than the fact that you have 'Morgan Stanley' on your resume when they know all you did was cold call for a broker all summer.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Mar 29, 2014

thanks for all the feedback. appreciate it

Mar 29, 2014

I would take the M&A internship

Mar 29, 2014

m&a bro

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.

Mar 29, 2014

Take the M&A internship. PWM -- make sure it's not GWM, but pure PWM. Freshman year should be the PWM these days. Or high school.

Mar 29, 2014

For sure go with the M&A internship. You would rather have relevant experience rather than a big name any day of the week, especially PWM, which people recognize is a joke of an internship.

Mar 29, 2014

Absolute no brainer

Mar 29, 2014
JeffSkilling:

Absolute no brainer

Yep.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

Mar 29, 2014

PWM is a stepping stone for IB internships. Skip it and do M&A

Mar 29, 2014

Excellent advice. Thank you all.

Mar 29, 2014

Aim for the boutique if you want to end up in IB.

Mar 29, 2014

do NOT do PWM internships if you have other alternatives. I know this is weird because I'm the resident PWM guy, but these internships are bullshit and people know that.

Mar 29, 2014
thebrofessor:

do NOT do PWM internships if you have other alternatives. I know this is weird because I'm the resident PWM guy, but these internships are bullshit and people know that.

I did a PWM internship and it's been a solid talking point in my S&T SA interviews this year. I'd say it's a good starting point if you're aiming for S&T or Asset Management next summer/FT. IB is a different story.

Mar 29, 2014

well sure it's a good stepping stone to other internships, it shows hustle that you got something freshman or sophomore year, but no one in their right mind should take a PWM internship as a launching pad for a career.

Mar 29, 2014

so you are saying i banking at any boutique is better than pwm internship? given i have the option?

Mar 29, 2014

Yes

Mar 29, 2014

absolutely

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Best Response
Mar 29, 2014

BB PWM or IB no name boutique Junior Fall? (Originally Posted: 05/12/2012)

Ill be a Junior next fall at a higher-end Semi Target. I had an internship during my last Spring semester at a merchant bank and will be completing a summer internship at a small boutique investment bank starting in a couple weeks.

The only problem is that both of these internships have been at no-name banks. My goal is BB IBD and was considering a BB PWM internship next fall just to get a BB name on my resume. I know that this is a step down in actual work, but im worried Ill get passed along during SA recruiting because I dont have any recognizable names on my resume.

Do you think I would benefit more by getting a second IB boutique internship in the Fall or BB PWM?

    • 2
Mar 29, 2014

2nd boutique IB is 10x better than BB PWM.

Mar 29, 2014

they care wayyy more about seeing investment banking intern on your resume than a BB name

Mar 29, 2014

Merchant bank + 2 boutique IB > merchant bank + 1 boutique IB + BB PWM

It's not even close. You won't get passed down for not having a brand name, nor will the BB PWM brand name impress them.

Mar 29, 2014

You guys are thinking about this the wrong way. BB PWM. Here's why:

You've already had exposure to IBD, so I'm going to assume that have some idea of what you're getting into. But why not try PWM? You might actually like it. You might actually be better at it. You might realize its something you'd rather do- if not now, at least somewhere down the line.

Generally speaking, people shouldn't repeat life experiences needlessly, and especially ones as mundane, monotonous, and empty as banking. Even if you somehow knew that given all of your skills/traits/ and current options, that BB IBD is the "only way to go" (doubtful), I would still recommend not doing the internships and instead spending that entire time getting on the phone and networking. Plenty of people break in without a fall internship. Plenty of people break in without any finance background whatsoever.

Your goal should be to maximize the chances of finding something you're good at/like, and minimize the chances of "Fuck, I should have done that instead". Is another investment banking internship really going to help in that regard?

Mar 29, 2014
Culcet:

You guys are thinking about this the wrong way. BB PWM. Here's why:

You've already had exposure to IBD, so I'm going to assume that have some idea of what you're getting into. But why not try PWM? You might actually like it. You might actually be better at it. You might realize its something you'd rather do- if not now, at least somewhere down the line.

Generally speaking, people shouldn't repeat life experiences needlessly, and especially ones as mundane, monotonous, and empty as banking. Even if you somehow knew that given all of your skills/traits/ and current options, that BB IBD is the "only way to go" (doubtful), I would still recommend not doing the internships and instead spending that entire time getting on the phone and networking. Plenty of people break in without a fall internship. Plenty of people break in without any finance background whatsoever.

Your goal should be to maximize the chances of finding something you're good at/like, and minimize the chances of "Fuck, I should have done that instead". Is another investment banking internship really going to help in that regard?

This is his Junior SA... The most important internship of his life. Do you think it's wise for him to backtrack and go fetch coffee and cold call? He needs to get more experience with valuation and formatting if he wants a FT IB offer.

Mar 29, 2014
Culcet:

You guys are thinking about this the wrong way. BB PWM. Here's why:

You've already had exposure to IBD, so I'm going to assume that have some idea of what you're getting into. But why not try PWM? You might actually like it. You might actually be better at it. You might realize its something you'd rather do- if not now, at least somewhere down the line.

Generally speaking, people shouldn't repeat life experiences needlessly, and especially ones as mundane, monotonous, and empty as banking. Even if you somehow knew that given all of your skills/traits/ and current options, that BB IBD is the "only way to go" (doubtful), I would still recommend not doing the internships and instead spending that entire time getting on the phone and networking. Plenty of people break in without a fall internship. Plenty of people break in without any finance background whatsoever.

Your goal should be to maximize the chances of finding something you're good at/like, and minimize the chances of "Fuck, I should have done that instead". Is another investment banking internship really going to help in that regard?

OP, do not listen to this guy. Not only is he completely wrong, but he is just trying to thinly veil his entrepreneurship hard-on. IBD should be the clear choice.

Mar 29, 2014

I agree with finding what you're good at, but it's pwm. I did pwm my freshman summer at a bb. Don't do pwm. Just don't.....

Mar 29, 2014

This question has been exhausted already. Stop asking, any IBD over PWM all day.

Mar 29, 2014

OP, don't listen to a single word I say if anyone here can actually address, let alone refute any of the points I made.

Mar 29, 2014
Culcet:

OP, don't listen to a single word I say if anyone here can actually address, let alone refute any of the points I made.

Ok, then.

Culcet:

You've already had exposure to IBD, so I'm going to assume that have some idea of what you're getting into. But why not try PWM? You might actually like it. You might actually be better at it. You might realize its something you'd rather do- if not now, at least somewhere down the line.

OP has already stated that he wants to do BB IBD. Passing on another IBD internship in favor of a PWM spot makes him a much less competitive candidate. A senior in high school can get a PWM position - it is the least competitive field in finance. There is also no way to "actually be better" at PWM: PWM interns are office bitches, whose responsibilities are limited to scheduling client meetings, getting coffee, and mailing quarterly statements to clients. Compare this to an IBD internship where you can actually add value.

Culcet:

Generally speaking, people shouldn't repeat life experiences needlessly, and especially ones as mundane, monotonous, and empty as banking.

Here you are completely wrong. If his resume went from IBD to PWM, they'd ask why he wasn't satisfied enough with banking to stick with it. Have you ever been in an interview? If so you should know that the first thing they try to assess in an interview is whether you actually know what you want and why. There is no better way to display this than to absolutely load up on experience in your desired industry.

Culcet:

Even if you somehow knew that given all of your skills/traits/ and current options, that BB IBD is the "only way to go" (doubtful), I would still recommend not doing the internships and instead spending that entire time getting on the phone and networking. Plenty of people break in without a fall internship. Plenty of people break in without any finance background whatsoever.

Most of this paragraph is your own opinion on banking. (See above, "your entrepreneurship hard-on".) However you do conclude it with some laughably bad logic that because some people work in IBD without previous industry internships, OP shouldn't even try to get the odds in his favor.
You also say that OP should try and network instead of taking the job. Now let's think - which is a better place to network for investment banking: on his school campus, or in an investment bank? Tough tough choices.

Culcet:

Your goal should be to maximize the chances of finding something you're good at/like, and minimize the chances of "Fuck, I should have done that instead". Is another investment banking internship really going to help in that regard?

His goal is to get a fucking job. He's already said that. So the short answer to your question is "Yes, another investment banking internship really does make him a better candidate."

    • 1
Mar 29, 2014

Thanks for writing back. Unfortunately none of what you said actually addressed any of the points I made, which were:

1) A PWM internship would be a good way to figure out whether PWM could be a viable career path a couple of years down the line.

2) One goal of these internships should be to figure out what you want, and not necessarily what "looks the best" for an IBD position you're not even sure you want.

gammaovertheta:

OP has already stated that he wants to do BB IBD. Passing on another IBD internship in favor of a PWM spot makes him a much less competitive candidate. A senior in high school can get a PWM position - it is the least competitive field in finance. There is also no way to "actually be better" at PWM: PWM interns are office bitches, whose responsibilities are limited to scheduling client meetings, getting coffee, and mailing quarterly statements to clients. Compare this to an IBD internship where you can actually add value.

I didn't say that PWM would be a better way to break into IBD, nor that it was more selective, nor that as an intern, he would "add more value" than an IBD intern would. In fact, I didn't say anything to the contrary of what you just said. Read the fucking post.

And when I said "better at PWM", I meant that he could see himself succeeding long-term in that field better than IBD. Yes, there are options in life outside of IBD.

gammaovertheta:

Here you are completely wrong. If his resume went from IBD to PWM, they'd ask why he wasn't satisfied enough with banking to stick with it. Have you ever been in an interview? If so you should know that the first thing they try to assess in an interview is whether you actually know what you want and why. There is no better way to display this than to absolutely load up on experience in your desired industry.

Yet another attempt at a straw man argument. Again, never did I say that PWM would be better to break into IBD. I'm noticing a recurring theme here- you're simply unable to wrap your head around the fact that people often do things for reasons other than breaking into banking, so whenever anyone exhibits anything resembling individual thought, your knee jerk reaction is "OMG THAT'S NOT GOOD FOR BANKING'. Pathetic.

And yes, I have been through and aced many interviews, and I've actually spoken in depth with many individuals that most on this board would consider "successful". Most people would agree that being able to articulate and actually have a sincere interest in what you're doing, which is usually obtained by trying out different things and being completely honest with yourself and what you want (note for slow: things other than IBD), is not only good for interviews, but for life in general (assuming you have higher goals in life than impressing interviewers).

gammaovertheta:

Most of this paragraph is your own opinion on banking. (See above, "your entrepreneurship hard-on".)

This is pretty funny. Entrepreneurship has nothing to do with anything that's been mentioned in this conversation whatsoever. Thinking carefully and thoughtfully about what you want to do and whether you're moving in that direction isn't entrepreneurship, it's common fucking sense.

gammaovertheta:

OP shouldn't even try to get the odds in his favor...You also say that OP should try and network...

Nice try with the snark, but I actually think I had the last laugh on this one.

Mar 29, 2014
Culcet:

Nice try with the snark, but I actually think I had the last laugh on this one.

Mhm, and I'm sure maybe one other person on this site agrees with you.

In any case, I think OP will have the last laugh on this one, when he gets the job he seeks in BB IBD - a process which I once again assure you he will find much easier if he takes my advice. (And it seems he agrees.)

Mar 29, 2014

Thanks. And gammaovertheta thanks for that last post it was informative. +1 SB

Mar 29, 2014

take the boutique IBD, especially if your goal is BB IBD. IBD internships on your resume let the analyst/recruiter know that you can do the work, you're interested in it/want to do it, and you can hit the ground running and are not someone who is "trying" banking to see if he/she likes it.

Mar 29, 2014

she should look at the specifics of both work situations

BB PWM should provide a good place to learn powerpoint (= what you do in consulting)

Boutique IB should learn a ton about how to do a deal because you have more responsibility at a smaller place (= things consultants should know how to do)

Mar 29, 2014

pick boutique IB. Investment banking on resume > pwm.

Mar 29, 2014

I think she should seriously consider BB PWM if her ultimate goal is going to a top MBA. The reason being that just because you do banking does not guarantee you a spot. Diversity is important from those schools so they would rather choose the best people from a wide range of fields and not just fill their schools with bankers...At least this is what I have heard from friends in MBA.

On the same note, I think each has its benefits in relation to consulting. BB PWM could help her make an argument about her background in team-oriented situations and how she was required to know a wide range of topics such as in consulting. On the other hand, banking would show she can handle the workload and do some heavy lifting in terms of excel and company analysis.

Just because it is IB does not mean it is > than all

Mar 29, 2014

TAKE THE IB INTERNSHIP if you had to choose between both. Or try to do one after the other.....

Mar 29, 2014

PWM at a BB would look good a resume... however from what I've read moving from PWM to IB in that company is ridiculously hard so that's one thing to consider.
For the unpaid IB internship, how unknown is the boutique? Where is it located?

Mar 29, 2014

Uhmmmm, do the IB internship. If you want to do IBD, then learn to do that. PWM just says you couldn't get anything else but wanted to score an A for effort.

Get busy living

  • jcy243
  •  Mar 29, 2014

It's a firm in midtown. it's too small for me to learn DCF and whatnot... especially because deals are so small that they are only evaluated for the short future, but I would have direct exposure to deal making and the research involved.

Mar 29, 2014
jcy243:

It's a firm in midtown. it's too small for me to learn DCF and whatnot... especially because deals are so small that they are only evaluated for the short future, but I would have direct exposure to deal making and the research involved.

1) What year are you?

2) I have friends doing BB PWM internships right now and they don't seem to enjoy it much. They all want IB. I know for sure one guy would slave for free to get an IB internship on his resume.

3) I've heard a BB PWM is good on your resume because it shows you're wanted by BBs. One has cleared you to not be insane and thus the others might be more willing to bite.

4) IF you're a sophomore, you might consider the BB PWM. If you absolutely kill it you might get handed a nifty piece of paper that asks what division you want to work in next.

5) Final note/idea: Don't discount or diminish the work experience you would do at a small firm. Most likely you will be dealt more responsibility than your counterparts at a BB, be forced to own your assignments and gain relevant/valuable banking experience.

Mar 29, 2014

IB are you kidding?
Experience triumps cash/big name

  • jcy243
  •  Mar 29, 2014

@ God of Wine

I'm going to be a junior. As you pointed out, I'm really just stuck because I feel like having a BB name on my resume will look good. Also, a large factor is that interning there will set me up for next summer before senior year in a legit program. If I don't put my foot in that door, I fear I may never get that opportunity given that I'm a liberal arts major with a 3.2 gpa at NYU.

I already work at an Asset Management shop which I find extraordinarily dull. I have come to terms that PWM won't be much better, but it also is at one of the top BBs, and I'll be working with one of the top groups within the firm. I was thinking I could leverage that to something better.

Nevertheless I really want to do IB, mainly for the fact that it's a high-strung job that is actually rewarding and interesting. I can't see many of the other fields being quite the same...

Any more thoughts?

Mar 29, 2014

Just like what everyone else said, do the IB internship - exposure is more important than anything else.

Mar 29, 2014

also i feel like youre focusing on the big name of the firm more than anything, smaller things can pack bigger punches sort to speak.

Mar 29, 2014

I think 2.5 months is a fine length for an internship.. I wouldn't stress about getting another internship in mid July

Mar 29, 2014

I like the hustle.

Definitely try for it. I don't think a PWM internship would do much after an IB internship, honestly.

Mar 29, 2014

Probably depends on what you are looking to do. If you are looking to transition into BB IB, or PE (which would be difficult from a boutique IB shop) then the IB is the way to go. You will get better hands-on training and my experience is that in a small shop you will have a lot more responsibility than at a larger place.

That being said, PWM will give you a solid name on the resume and will probably be a better lifestyle but transitioning into IB or PE from there would be tough. Nothing wrong with doing PWM for a living though... less money but a far more enjoyable lifestyle. If you are the only analyst at a boutique IB you could get seriously crushed a lot of the time.

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique IBD. If the MS thing is actually PWM and not wealth management, then maybe depending on MS's structure, you could hop over to banking after two years, otherwise the boutique is better. You could go back to b school after two years or go to a MM PE shop, or you could lateral to a MM or BB in a few years.

fdba Emory Blaine and BBA or otherwise trying to find the perfect pseudonym.

  • eyelikecheese
  •  Mar 29, 2014

Your experience at the Boutique will set you apart far more than a PWM style..rather it be for bschool, or any other career

Mar 29, 2014

boutique IB will not get you into PE in general (yes there are exceptions but they are VERY few and far between) even if you get decent deal exposure, but will help you jump to banking later on at a brand name firm more than MS Wealth management

Mar 29, 2014

this is assuming unknown boutique IBs, obviously leaving out top boutiques, well known MMs etc

Mar 29, 2014

I'd go with BB.

    • 1
Mar 29, 2014

The skills and experience you get in boutique IB will be much more relevant and helpful for FT recruiting than BB PWM. Even if your boutique is not hiring FT, you can use that experience to at least land interviews at other banks.

BB PWM is helpful early in college to show your interest in finance, but there are tons of offices and lots of kids do this so it wont really set you apart for recruiting.

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique IB for sure. Most people do BB PWM. The typical progression is BB PWM --> Boutique IB --> BB IB. Why not skip the first step if you can?

Mar 29, 2014
notaspammer:

Boutique IB for sure. Most people do BB PWM. The typical progression is BB PWM --> Boutique IB --> BB IB. Why not skip the first step if you can?

He's a Junior... What you said makes no sense. They only go that route if Freshman summer is BB PWM, sophomore summer is boutique IB, junior summer is BB IB, then senior FT offer is BB IB.

Mar 29, 2014

I'd say boutique as well - notaspammer has a good point. You're taking an extra step given your options.

Mar 29, 2014

Was in the same position previously. I went with boutique and feel it was a great decision.

Mar 29, 2014

Go for the experience. I vote for boutique.

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

Mar 29, 2014

Oh just realized the boutique is an IB position. Then I'd go for IB if the boutique is reputable. No point working for a no-name start-up random boutique though.

Mar 29, 2014

Boutique.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

Mar 29, 2014

boutique definitely. it also shows your interest in investment banking, and it's way easier to get interviews/spin your story with banking experience.

Mar 29, 2014

IMHO, pwm internships don't add much value

Mar 29, 2014

and to clarify, that's in terms of skills acquired, relevant to IB.

Mar 29, 2014

To get into banking or get into a bigger bank it's best to get as close as possible. Boutique banking is far closer to "real banking" than PWM. I've had friends who have done PWM and no one seems to have a great opinion of it.

When do you have to respond to UBS by? Perhaps you can see how your internship goes in the first few weeks and base your decision off that?

Mar 29, 2014

Take the boutique. PWM is completely irrelevant to IB and it'll add so little when interviews come around next time. Don't get fooled by the 'go for the big name' gig.

Mar 29, 2014

Thanks for advice. What is the majority opinion on the public finance groups? Is starting analyst pay greatly different?

Mar 29, 2014

how about UBS Global Asset Management or IB(M&A)Boutique for summer a internship?

I would appreciate any help?

Mar 29, 2014

sorry for a summer internship

Mar 29, 2014

ma all day...

here's why:

you may do IB and realize you hate it. If you try to go PWM full time they'll really respect IB exp. A bank won't give 2 shits about PWM.

(I know I did internships with both)

While my PWM internship helped get to the botique, PWM will RARELY help you get into banking.

I've never heard of anyone not landing a job because they had IB on their resume...

Mar 29, 2014

IB

Mar 29, 2014

Unless you want to be a financial advisor, trying to get old doctors to fork over their money to you and advising people on their 401ks, take the IB. Unless your fortunate enough to work in ultra-high net work advisory, you likely face a long slog to build a list of decently wealthy clients ($1m-5m per acct.) and over the years (if your good) you'd probably max out making $1m-$2m per year in your late 50s (not to mention fees keep getting squeezed). Before you even start getting your own clients, you'll have to work as a glorified secretary for a few years, processing stuff for your boss (I interned at UBS PWM one summer so I've seen this myself).

Even though the IB firm sucks, you could always go back and get an MBA and upgrade firms, or just do so laterally without the MBA if you make some good connections. The work will also probably be more interesting, even if its only public finance.

Mar 29, 2014

ib will open more doors than one can imagine. ie, hf,pe...

Mar 29, 2014

congrats to you on both offers. though i have to say it seems to be a recurring theme of ppl interested in IB getting these PWM internships for the name (as a frosh)---obviously these ppl are not interested in PWM, so why do firms take them anyway versus other qualified candidates that want to actually do PWM (or does no one really want to)... are these ppl just good at BS-ing their way into the job?

it seems pretty clear that they're just using the PWN internship for leverage into IB---it just doesn't make sense to me that the firm would be willing do this yr after yr

thoughts?

Mar 29, 2014

Are you getting good deal experience at the unpaid IB?

If you are, the PWM experience is unnecessary. Above all, if you can keep your GPA high, tackling 2 internships is definitely a plus for you.

Btw - The PWM experience will most likely be BS, the pay aside.

Mar 29, 2014

I am getting pretty good experience at the IB.

At first it was a lot of research and qualitative stuff. The entire gig is unstructured, as I'm sure most boutiques are, so I have been able to really push for assignments that I want. There is no rigid hierarchy. I have built a couple of comps models, a precedent transaction model, and I have just started building a DCF for a new client that we landed last week. I also edit some marketing material, research strategic acquirers, and other random stuff.

My GPA is a 3.5 cumulative, 3.6 major at a non target, and I was able to maintain that with 20 semester credits while working ~ 25-30 hrs a week at the IB during school. I won't have any school this summer, so I don't have to worry about a GPA.

I actually know with a high degree of certainty that the PWM internship will mostly be fluff, I just want to start making some money to put towards rent, recreation, and student loans.

It seems to me that the pros would be a brand name on my resume and pay, while the cons would be its irrelevancy to IB and the additional time.

Mar 29, 2014

Couldn't you just tell your interviewer you took the PWM gig because you needed money and instead of working retail or something you decided to do something quasi finance related? How can you argue with that?