Comments (112)

Mar 18, 2015
Mar 20, 2015

This is somewhat subjective, but probably pretty close. I'm not sure you can draw a huge line between these.

Citi, JPM, Goldman, Lehman, MS, Bear, Merrill.

Like I said, I doubt this is 'exact' but probably close.

Mar 20, 2015

for CS-electronic cash equity trading is right up there.
Citi-credit trading

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Mar 20, 2015

If you wanted to work as a researcher or PM at a fundamental fund, you should have done ER. If you wanted to work in PE, you should have done IBD.

If you want to be a trader at a hedge fund and do execution for the PMs and researchers there, just pick any liquid market where the risk per $ invested is high (equities).

If you want to be a researcher or perhaps a PM one day at a hedge fund, your best bet at this point is to go the quant route. And there are some opportunities in S&T, but the banks have largely gotten out of risk taking, so what S&T does these days is different from what a hedge fund does.

I'd look into index strategies or systematic strategies, or maybe a team that does exotics. What is your math background? Taken stats? Time series analysis? Stochal?

Mar 20, 2015

Fixed Income is pretty vague...

Mar 20, 2015

Just because you can't get a job at a hedge fund, do not try to trump your lame experience at a central bank. Not the same. Graduate schools will know the difference.

Mar 20, 2015

BarCap - one of the best S&T franchises on the Street
MS - huge in commodities, market leader.

Mar 20, 2015

MMs like HLHZ tend to focus on this specialty more. not sure which BBs are best.

Mar 20, 2015
  1. Lehman
  2. JPMorgan
  3. Bear Stearns
  4. UBS
  5. Banc of America Securities
  6. Credit Suisse
  7. Goldman
  8. Merrill
  9. Wachovia Securities
  10. RBS
  11. DB
  12. Citigroup
  13. Barclay's
  14. Morgan Stanley
Mar 20, 2015

goldman and morgan are usually regarded as the top

Mar 20, 2015

Kellogg isn't really a big target school for S&T recruiting (Wharton, Chicago, and Columbia are the primary targets, and then NYU because it's in the City; most other schools are considered "non-targets"). So it will be slightly tougher overall in that you will have to put in more leg work. That said, it's not all that tough. Most S&T associate classes I've seen are primarily Wharton and Chicago, with one or two here and there from HBS, Kellogg, etc. You may have to go visit a lot of trading floors on your own and may have to do some interviews at the firm vs. on campus, but nothing too tough. For instance, at my firm MIT Sloan isn't a target, so a buddy of mine in my associate class had to interview on the trading floor because we don't visit their campus.
For S&T the key is networking and getting a number of good contacts at each bank--which includes visiting as many trading floors as possible. Culture fit is a huge deal for getting S&T offers, much more so than in banking or other finance positions.
Proving your quant skills is huge. So take any classes you can about derivatives, fixed income securities, macroeconomics, etc.
Trading results on your own account is really pretty irrelevant, other than proving that you pay attention to the markets. In S&T these days most of the products you'll be dealing with are impossible for individuals to trade on their own anyway.

Mar 20, 2015

Used to be JPM, GS, and MS... JPM sold to Mercuria, MS (physical) to Rosneft, GS still in limbo.

Decent amount of turbulence and uncertainty right now. Ultimately, I would say the old way of thinking is no longer relevant -- just wait it out and see how things shape up.

Mar 18, 2015

To add a different perspective, it's very hard to generalize which banks are the "best" overall since it varies so much from desk to desk. In general, brand name still matters in case you want to leave for a HF or do something else altogether. Brand name rankings are the same as IBD rankings. Outside of that it's all about the specific group.

To use JPM as an example: great brand, great FICC, great equity derivs (according to the league table posted, great pretty much everything) but their cash equities group is kind of shit.

Mar 20, 2015

.

Mar 20, 2015

Don't feed the troll.

Mar 20, 2015
GoodBread:

Don't feed the troll.

is that my quote GB?

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

Mar 20, 2015

very tricky. also you need to define "best". BNP/SocGen are considered to have the most sophisticated equity derivs franchises, but im fairly sure in terms of comp they arent the best.

If i was in college again, id just try to get into Goldman Sachs. The others seem to fluctuate, the GS name carries a lot of weight and they seem to be constantly at the forefront of anything investment banking related. There might be stronger/weaker desks but tbh as a junior just go to the best bank. Thats my 2c.

Mar 20, 2015

GS, LB, DB, MS

Mar 20, 2015

BAML is equities. ML was always an equities shop. BOA also has a HUGE mortgage book, so their MBS desk has quite a bit of market share.

Citi is pretty big in FX and rates. It has a mortgage desk that's big like BAML.

Deutsche, JPM, and BAML have descent EM desks, and I used to do some good business with Goldman in the Asian NDF market.

Mar 20, 2015

Id expand on IP's points, his general idea being that a lot of trading desks on the sell side are not actually fantastic transition points to being a portfolio manager on the buy side. This is obviously a bit of a generalization. For example if you are on a macro desk then you can transition to a global macro HF as these places are often more trader-y as opposed to fundamentally analyzing companies.

However, even past that there are niches (I transitioned from a sell side vol desk to a CB arb HF)

You have to think about skillset and what kind of HF you want to go to. Saying "I want to work at an HF" is largely meaningless. Do you want to be analyzingcompanies or looking at more macro style investing? Etc etc

Mar 20, 2015

for credit it is GS, JPM, BOA-ML, DB

MS - who knows, their platform has been ... off lately

No idea about other asset classes

Mar 20, 2015

.

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Mar 20, 2015

The best S&T is:

The one where you can make the most money.

Mar 20, 2015

.

Mar 20, 2015

In London the top three are

GS
DB
Lehman

Mar 20, 2015

By both revenue and income it goes like this:
1) Goldman, 2) Morgan Stanley, 3) Barclays Capital.

They are the clear leaders, then there is a sizeable gap.

Next, I would probably group together: JPM (on the
revenue from Amaranth, but this position may not be sustainable since they just lost 5 people, including the desk head and COO), Merrill, Bear (now that they just novated William's book--without it they would be in the next group down). Deutsche may be in there as well.

Then Citi, CS, Lehman--all small but aggresively trying to build.

The most recent issue of Energy Risk magazine actually listed desk revenues by firms for commodities in February, I believe, but I don't have the issue handy. To give you an idea, though, the GS/MS/Barcap group is running revenues of just shy of $2B to just over $3B. Whereas the smaller shops, like Citi, for instance, were listed on Bloomberg at around $200M.

For commodities structuring Barclays Capital is tops, and has been for quite some time. But the competition is catching up, as a number of other shops are doing quite well in that area.

Mar 20, 2015

Nareman want to make love with LediLexa.

Mar 20, 2015

GS and Citi are the only ones left that are serious about it...but if you want commodities trading there are better places to have a career IMO

Mar 20, 2015

I noticed on the JPM website that they have awards for most products like derivatives, fixed income, and equities, but they have absolutely nothing for FX. Does that mean they have a very weak FX desk?

Mar 20, 2015
derivstrading:

Id expand on IP's points, his general idea being that a lot of trading desks on the sell side are not actually fantastic transition points to being a portfolio manager on the buy side. This is obviously a bit of a generalization. For example if you are on a macro desk then you can transition to a global macro HF as these places are often more trader-y as opposed to fundamentally analyzing companies.

However, even past that there are niches (I transitioned from a sell side vol desk to a CB arb HF)

You have to think about skillset and what kind of HF you want to go to. Saying "I want to work at an HF" is largely meaningless. Do you want to be analyzingcompanies or looking at more macro style investing? Etc etc

Hi! I also have a summer internship in S&T lined up and I am interested in a Macro PM route. Would you say I have a chance to end up at a top shop by doing EM Rates / Rates / FX Options / Credit Index Options? What other desks should I look at?

I'm a Stats/Maths and Econ undergrad at a top UK uni (LSE/Oxbridge/UCL)

Thanks in advance!

Mar 20, 2015
sb842:

GS and Citi are the only ones left that are serious about it...but if you want commodities trading there are better places to have a career IMO

From a metals point of view, can think of many names that come before Citi (Barclay's, Standard Chartered, etc).

Also, Citi just started getting into commodity trade finance only about 1-2 yrs ago. I assume that S&T desks belonging to banks w/ big trade finance dpts get more flow (i.e. if Standard sets up a big structured commodity finance deal w/ hedging and whatnot, would assume this gets executed by their S&T desk).

Mar 20, 2015

don't know much abt metals, but didn't Barclays shut down most of their commodities group?

Mar 20, 2015

In London Barclays Capital and DB are tops. Well ahead of Goldman and Lehman....

Mar 20, 2015

That pdf that was posted is as good as anything for giving you an idea of who the top guys are. You'll probably want to apply to every one those banks in any case. Since you aren't guaranteed a spot on a particular desk, you're probably better off going with whoever you like best (assuming you have multiple offers).

JPM/Deutsche/Goldman have generally speaking been the top names in rates/fx for a while now.

Mar 20, 2015

GS,LB,MS,JPM

Mar 20, 2015

None of these guys are "weak" in FX, because combined they handle 80% of all FX volume in the world. (and we're talking 4 trillion daily)

But it makes sense for JPM to downplay their FX presence, (where they trail DB and UBS by significant margins) and advertise their powerhouse derivatives business.

Always play up your strengths.

Mar 20, 2015

QR is better than trading for moving to the buyside (although you will be a trader's bitch for a couple years); trading is better than sales- you can at least get into an execution role and then move towards QR with experience or an advanced degree.

You could also be a really strong candidate for an MFE or a Finance PhD.

Mar 20, 2015

It is best to look at this on a group/product basis for instance:
Best in Credit/Interest rate products/currencies/commodities

Mar 20, 2015

People DO get into good MBA's with central bank experience. You will do fine if your other stuff is competitive.

Mar 20, 2015

I think it is. Do you need me to attribute it?

Mar 20, 2015

CS, JPM..
Search for a topic about CS Fixed Income that was posted by GordonGekkon asking about offers. In the comments in a link to HY rankings.

To transition from lev fin group to trading group shouldn't be to hard, but might take a year or two. I know of people that have gone from Lev Fin to distressed debt trading shops.

Mar 20, 2015

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mar 20, 2015

Hi,

is there any kind of ranking or where can find information about trading volumes in the energy sector?

thanks!

Mar 20, 2015

I want to go into commodity structuring, so I'm looking at sell side. Are all the BBs really so bad? Will their traders ever get as much risk to manage in the next 10 years as they did pre crash?

Mar 20, 2015

Do you know anything about JPM FX Derivatives? Also, they are a very conservative firm. What kind of prop trading do they do? I know they dont have a dedicated prop desk, but traders still take some proprietary positions, I think.

Mar 20, 2015
GoodBread:

I think it is. Do you need me to attribute it?

No I was just wondering

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

Mar 20, 2015

also worth looking at the trading houses and oil companies that have structuring desks. they are picking up much of the slack left by banks

Mar 20, 2015

Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but would also highlight even those sub-groups seem somewhat too broad to generalize. i.e. showing JPM as not being in top 3 in G10 credit, which includes IG, HY/distressed, and exotics, when in reality they are at or near the top on the HY/distressed side (not familiar with others).

Like someone else said, just apply everywhere, see where you get offers, see how you like the people at each place, then look at these rankings, in that order.

Mar 20, 2015

are you serious enough to put LB second???hahahahahaha...they're full of arrogance but they do not carry so much substance...they try to stick themselves between the 3 uber-BBs (GS,MS,ML) but I don't think they will make it...

Mar 20, 2015

Let's just say i'm pretty familiar with FX across the board.

Yes, FX desks everywhere (at conservative and aggressive dealers) have a substantial prop book. That's because FX margins are very low and even though volume is often quite high and consistent, it's still asking a lot of someone to scrape every piece of their bonus off 0.5 basis points per trade.

High liquidity in FX makes entering and exiting prop positions very easy so they do encourage it.

Mar 20, 2015

stay out of Credit Index Options if you can, the credit business is going through huge changes in terms of regulatory capital and there is usually only 1 trader per bank. Sometimes 2 at the American banks in the US> Exit opportunities are next to none and you can basically go from one bank to the next.. I'd imagine unless you are stellar it would be v difficult to go to a HF from here

Mar 20, 2015

Fixed income at UBS has been doing horrible. That's where are their losses came from after all. They have been bringing in some key talent from other banks though. I believe they got the head of credit trading at DB.

Typically MS and Barclays are considered top fixed income shops from what I've heard. Anyone else hear differently?

Mar 20, 2015

depending on the fund, I'd say central banking experience could be more valuable

Mar 20, 2015

I'm not a troll. Just a curious undergrad.

Mar 20, 2015

Gotta love that #1 and #3.

Mar 20, 2015

Are these jobs dying?

Mar 20, 2015

how the fuck are spammers on this board...

Mar 20, 2015

Is Citi really on par with MS, JPM?

Mar 20, 2015

well ms and JPM sold off commodities so it's much higher

Mar 20, 2015

Just physicals though I think.

Mar 20, 2015

has lost tons of prestige and can hardly be grouped with GS AND MS

Mar 20, 2015

When we say Equities, we are mainly referring to Cash?

Mar 20, 2015

so for top MBA programs, experience at an average hedge fund is more valuable than experience at a central bank?

I love my bananas!

Mar 20, 2015

Fuck. Yo. Couch.

Mar 20, 2015

Look at the date of the posts...

Mar 20, 2015

Are these jobs dying?

Mar 20, 2015

hahaha what the hell

Mar 20, 2015

I would suggest applying to all of them. Good luck.

Mar 20, 2015

yes..but (ML) they're gaining ground again and they still have the big name...lehman shows considerable momentum (I would compare them to Barcap in the UK), they have struck impressive deals (e.g. DE Shaw) but they haven't shown something yet...profits only 20% up while for GS and MS the increase was 85% yoy.
and i'm sarcastic because they're arrogant...a friend of mine went on some informational interview with a lehman MD (ok..he was IB) and he said "we would hire you if you showed us that you had offers from GS and/or MS..."...if only there was a guy that rejected GS or MS to go to LB...

Mar 20, 2015

Do you guys also know about FX Derivatives, like FX Options?

Mar 20, 2015

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/citis-report-on-ban...trading

This being said, read the sticky in the trading forum.

Mar 20, 2015

oh my god

Mar 20, 2015

Preferred city?

Mar 20, 2015

Seriously, one cannot us the GS, MS, ML, LB ranking for S&T. GS would probably remain first, but other firms like DB rank much higher when looking at the markets business.

Mar 20, 2015

bump....could we get another look at this-any changes etc? just curious

and does anyone have some more input on rates/derivatives?

Mar 20, 2015

London. Thanks for the help guys

Mar 20, 2015

nobody talked about IB....it's difficult to isolate the contribution of Global Markets to overall profit increase, but at least if you say discrepancies such as the one I mentioned it's obvious that something's wrong. On another note, because S&T is an extremely cyclical business, now that the market is bull we see "trading rockets" like Barcap, Lehman, or DB (ok...DB has some consistent history I admit...) and suddenly these rockets become trendy and everybody wants to go aboard...but be reminded what happened, for example, in August-September 1997: Rumors that LB was going bust circulated every friday; on the other hand GS weathered the storm unscathed. So, one should be very cautious when characterizes these momentum players as "top".

Mar 20, 2015

goldman's STIR desk has been killing it

Mar 20, 2015

What's it like starting in the trader program at a commodity house?

Mar 20, 2015
Winston Wolfe:

What's it like starting in the trader program at a commodity house?

Awesome but prefer supermajor ones.

Mar 20, 2015

hm

Mar 20, 2015

A number of us have posted this before, but it all depends on the product. <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/goldman-sachs">GS</a></span> is great across the board (but they have been losing a lot of people in some key areas recently). <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/morgan-stanley">MS</a></span> is good as well, but turmoil in the ranks has affected the firm. Lehman was the "hot" shop for my b-school class, and it's a great firm, but Barcap actually made more money (revenue and profit) than Lehman (and, for that matter, Bear, <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/bank-of-america-merrill-lynch">BofA</a></span>, and a few others). Bear is great for mortgages. <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/deutsche-bank">DB</a></span> is great across the board, to be honest (negative feedback about the culture, though). <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/citigroup">Citi</a></span> and <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/jpmorgan-chase">JPM</a></span> are great flow shops, but be hesistant to recommend them if you're looking to do serious derivatives/structuring work. BofA is growing and has potential. <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/bank-of-america-merrill-lynch">ML</a></span> is phenomenal in equity derivatives. <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/ubs-ag">UBS</a></span> is great in equities across the board. <span class='keyword_link'><a href="/company/credit-suisse">CS</a></span> is kind of falling off the map these days.

Mar 20, 2015

Guys how is HSBC new York's fx desk? Any comments would be really helpful
thanks

SSK

Mar 20, 2015

Citi seems to be the only bank really left in commodities in Houston

Mar 20, 2015

Would you choose JPM or BofA s&t in London? Anybody have views on whether BofA will catch up and overtake some of the more established firms in terms of s&t revenue and profits?

Mar 20, 2015

Might be a bit outdated, but I don't think much has changed:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/image...

    • 1
Mar 20, 2015

i trade power with all the BB's left in the game. Morgan Stanley has a fully staffed 24/7 power trading desk, JP is not as big as it used to be, but they still trade under the JP Ventures name. J Aron and Citi are not big in real time. Chances of getting into BB's are slim, even as an experienced professional.

    • 1
Mar 20, 2015

There are different factors at work. JPM, especially in derivs space, was a major innovator. BofA has some room to grow but i;ve heard there's decent opportunities there for junior people b/c its still growing. in london though, JPM has a much stronger brand.

Mar 20, 2015

I agree with F430. Most BB's trade on the day ahead market and long terms. Definitely not junior trader roles.

Mar 20, 2015

Cheers, Jimbo. I'm gonna be in IBD at BofA in London this summer, but I'm still not 110% decided whether IB or s&t is a more suitable career choice. If I do well, how difficult do you think it would be to move to s&t for FT within the same firm. I've also got a good contact at JPM, which may be easier. If I do well, and want to stay at BofA (but in s&t), should I still try to get an offer from JPM to help leverage on offer?

This is all quite hypothetical as I may end up absolutely loving m&a, and in that field, I think the best opportunities for someone my age are at BofA in Europe.

Mar 20, 2015

if you do well in the internship I'm sure you could move to s&t. once you've started its not as easy.

Mar 20, 2015

So, you suggest that doing well (and being liked) during a SA stint should open doors to whichever FT role you want? What if you tell IBD that you want s&t, but, for some reason, s&t don't want you? Will IBD then not want you back?

Mar 20, 2015

"So, you suggest that doing well (and being liked) during a SA stint should open doors to whichever FT role you want? What if you tell IBD that you want s&t, but, for some reason, s&t don't want you? Will IBD then not want you back?
"

To the first part, no. there are no guarantees and each desk will make it's own decision. But if you want to interview for s&t, you could probably do that. get the ib offer first though. it's possible ib wants you and s&t doesn't, sure.

Mar 20, 2015
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