Transition from Big 4 to BB IB?

Hey All,

I am currently a freshman student at a non-target school for IB, however 2 of the the Big 4 firms as well as many other consulting firms come on campus to recruit for internships and full time gigs. I was wondering if I supposedly got a job in Transaction Services/Advisory for the Big 4 and did a couple years there and then got an MBA, would I be able to make the move to a BB IB?

Thanks

 

You're going about this the wrong way. Don't sell yourself short by planning a Big Four to IB move. What you should be doing is working to get IB straight out of undergrad.

You really have two choices:

1). Network and keep your GPA as close to a 4.0 as possible while getting relevant experience (e.g. boutique IB internships). 2). Get as close to a 4.0 as possible during freshman year and then transfer to a target

I'd go with option #2. Your life will be much easier from a recruiting standpoint. Good luck.

 

What are are you going to b ein ? Audit?

If you can get into corporate finance, that is you best bet.

Otherwise, people here iwll probably tell you its going to be near impossible from audit. I can tell you in austrlaia its a bit easier, I know a few people who have come from audit to move into IB, often equity research.

Big 4 Accounting Guide to Getting Hired Contains interview questions, exactly how to answer, resume guide, how to make an impact and a guide to the firms and service lines.
 
BigTenGrad:
I'll be in audit. I'm going to try and get on some financial clients if possible.

So you guys think MBA from top-tier won't cut it? I'd be interested in trading too, if that seems like a more realistic route.

An MBA from a top tier school will definitely open up doors for you. You will most likely get interviews, etc.

The point I'm making is that if you want to do banking, then just network your way into it. You don't need to spend $200K on a grad school education (not yet anyway). And it'll look better that you were a banker pre business school when you're actually in business school. Seriously, after a year of work, you'll see who know whos and how you can use these connections to help you land interviews/offers. Unless you're a complete tool that no one likes.

Btw, working for a financial client does not mean that you will get a skill set or network that can be used to become a banker. you'll probably have a good shot at getting a job working in the finance department at the client. If you have a hospital as a client, it doesn't give you a good shot at becoming a doctor.


I'm making it up as I go along.

------------ I'm making it up as I go along.
 
h.e.pennypacker:
I agree with Cornelius. There are many boutiques in Chicago (if that's where you're going to be working) that have no training programs. As a result, they look for analyst candidates that have 1 year of work experience in banking or accounting.

Interesting note. Is this common with other small boutiques or was this specified towards a select few in chicago?

 

I understand the on-campus presence of the Big Four there vs. top finance companies. Your best bet is to move to NY or Chicago (if you want to stay in the Midwest), neither of which should be an issue with any Big Four firm, and then either try to get into an IBD quickly (so you're not 'tainted'), or move to the corp fin side or the transaction services (accounting due diligence on M&A deals) side ASAP.

I agree that an MBA from a top school will undoubtedly open up doors, but I also agree that you should try breaking in before that. Once you've moved to NY/CHI, you should network like crazy.

 

I'm an MSU alum and former BB IBer. Would agree with others, just network and try to move up. Deloite's IB in the D is hiring, did you try interviewing with them when they came to MSU? Shoot me a message if you need some contacts or would like to talk more. Best of luck!

Go Green! Go White!

 

Ok, so it looks like the best route is Big4 (1-2 yrs) -> Boutique (2-3 yrs?) -> MBA from top-20/Exit to industry/stay in banking

My question is, what cities besides Chicago have the types of firms that look for analyst candidates w/1-2 yrs work experience? I'm willing to move to any city as long as its big, but would prefer Chicago/NYC/anywhere in Cali.

 

I have the option to move internally into structured finance at the same Big4 where I started out of college (3 years ago).

Product Control is a middle office "controller" function, typical responsibilities may include producing daily P&L,risk attributions, month-end independent price verification(IPV)of open positions, and ad-hoc project involving front-office or risk management.

 

How regional is the boutique? Are we talking a boutique that has dealflow and pays close to street or a small 5 person run shop that does an occasional small-cap capital raise? If I were you I would go with PwC consulting. Lateraling from a small regional bank to a BB for full time recruiting is near impossible now. They barely even recruit for full time. PwC consulting is still a great gig and although you might not be able to transition into banking, you still have good exits

 

big 4 management consulting is looked upon as more "equal" to a mickey mouse IB boutique, at least in the eyes of those who work in BB, since many of them considered Big 4 Consulting when they were leaving college.

 
RodneyBro20:
big 4 management consulting is looked upon as more "equal" to a mickey mouse IB boutique, at least in the eyes of those who work in BB, since many of them considered Big 4 Consulting when they were leaving college.

What?

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

It's a REALLY long shot, at least in the US, and networking will be key. Audit is not very highly respected and the work is very different from what an analyst at a bank does. Your odds would be improved by moving into a specialty group that works with transactions and/or valuations; not sure how Big 4 offices are structured in Taiwan.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

Kenny is right. You are probably looking at a relatively long process of transitioning. Your best bet would get into an advisory role at your firm and spend at least a year there, so that you have substantial experiences to put on your resume. That will at least give you some support when people are looking at your resume, and may help alleviate the question of why IB? You could easily back it up by saying that you found audit to lack the analytical aspects that you were looking for, so moved into advisory to better prepare yourself for IB once you discovered that IB would better utilize your abilities.

 
Buyout King:
typically how does someone have to work in audit before transitioning to advisory services in the Big4? Can someone go into transaction advisory when they grad?

You can definitely go into advisory straight out of school. So long as you have a finance or accounting degree it should be relatively easy to do. Whichever degree you have, just try to get as much relevant coursework from the other as possible since they are both heavily utilized in advisory.

 

Depends on the service line and the firm/office, but most people I knew in advisory started in advisory, with the exception of a few really technical accounting advisory practices that brought in people from audit after a few years.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

^^ thanks guys. I didn't really know that - i was under the impression you have to start in audit first prior transitioning to advisory. do you have any ideas which firms do this and is this applicable in Canada? Or mostly geared toward the US?

 

It certainly happens, at least in Europe, and it's not rare to see a few Big 4 guys on the floor.

Most of the time it comes down to networking with a few taking the route of reaching out to recruiters depending on if they were involved in transactions in their last role.

I am guessing you are in Chile which might make things more difficult networking wise as well as attempting to relocate abroad. MBA might seem like a more realistic option.

 
Rumplesmoothspin:

It certainly happens, at least in Europe, and it's not rare to see a few Big 4 guys on the floor.

Most of the time it comes down to networking with a few taking the route of reaching out to recruiters depending on if they were involved in transactions in their last role.

I am guessing you are in Chile which might make things more difficult networking wise as well as attempting to relocate abroad. MBA might seem like a more realistic option.

Thanks for your response!

But being at a Big 4 corporate finance team, is it seen as a real investment banking job? we don't have the same hours though, so I'm worried they don't see that I can work too like an analyst/associate from a BB.

Money never sleeps.
 

Anything is possible in Chile, career paths aren't as clearly defined as in the U.S and some banks don't have pure M&A teams, the same team may do ECM as well given that the deal flow in Chile for both M&A and ECM is much much lower than let's say NYC.

Also, as the deal flow is much lower in Santiago you won't have to stay up late as you would in let's say NYC or London, given this, the hours in Big 4 Corp Fin in Chile may be lower but not much lower.

Remember not everything is about joining an Investment Bank but also gaining exposure to real M&A, many investment banks in Chile haven't seen a single deal in a long time.

Thanks for the answer Asatar. I can't send you a PM since I don't have enough banana points or smthn. I'd rather not say the exact name of my employer but I don't think it really matters, they're all very similar.

So if I was going for a 1st year analyst position, would I stand a good chance of getting through since I'm obviously far more qualified than most other guys applying or does that not matter that much as say competency based interviews (or whatever it is that banks place an importance on in the recruitment process).

 

I was interested to see if I know you through work :)

Think of it this way - Big 4 each hire about 1,000 new people as S1's every year. A LOT of them want to leave after being qualified. When you are qualified, there's probably going to be several hundred others just from your firm looking for the same banking roles as you are. You might be preferable over a fresh university graduate, but what is going to make you stand out against your peers?

An ACA shows you are intelligent with basic accounting skills, but it doesn't show you have an interest in finance OR modelling skills. I would recommend doing at least Level 1 of the CFA while studying for your ACA, just so that headhunters / HR see you're not an audit drone. Spend the next 3 years networking your ass off and make sure you are top of your group and get fantastic recommendations from all your Managers / Senior Managers.

 

Hey

Alternative Investment Funds Department? Interesting...

I switched from Big 4 to IB - was in Consumer and Industrial Products in Audit so had a broad industry knowledge.

Only went for it off the back of a good contact in the bank who put my CV forward. 11 interviews! Technical (valuations and sector knowledge)

You need to be pretty sharp - first time ACA passes, impeccable academics and a solid reason why you want to do what you want to do. And prepare to lose a couple of years in terms of career progression - I went from qualification to third year analyst (lost a year).

Your key strengths - knowledge of accounting and financial statements and everything one needs to understand balance sheet, P&L and cash flow - this is one of the key skills someone from audit brings. Also play on your knowledge of GAAP (US/IFRS/UK).

Msg back if you want more advice.

From the ghetto....
 

I think it would be easiest to just go from Big 4 to MM IB to be honest. I know 2 people who have done this transition and gone to extremely reputable middle-market banks.

I've heard that CFA has very little Value Added to the entry level IB positions and a prestigious MBA could be difficult with have 1,000 other auditors applying with same background/experience.

I guess my only question would be do you not want to start at the Analyst Level? Because if that is the case then you will definitely want to work your ass off and get into a prestigious MBA to make it easy on yourself to land an Associate role.

 

Awesome, congrats man! Don't see that jump all too often.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

Fortunately I had a fairly strong resume (1 IB internship, high GPA), so that helped. I landed interviews in a variety of ways-- If I saw a job posting I wanted to apply for, I'd use LinkedIn to see if anyone I had some type of connection to worked there, and then I'd talk to them. I also had a friend send me job postings from his school's career site, and I would just directly email whoever the contact was. And of course, I submitted online apps to every posting I saw.

Hey, how's your art career going?
 

A handful of the BB's are on hiring freezes right now, and if you would be coming in as a first or second-year analyst, you have to fight with all the undergrads looking for jobs in banking as well.

Decide what area of banking you want to be in, i.e. research, S&T, banking, etc. and then try and leverage any contacts/friends you may have. That is usually the best way to go, as online apps. do not usually go anywherem except for HR's circular file.

 

The only people I know who have made the switch are people who have done a big 4 stint then gone into B-school and then moved into i-banking or made really good friends with some analyst and associates at a bank. It would be really difficult to make the switch by going through HR or company website

 

Dude, why didn't you go for it out of undergrad. How/why are you a better candidate with any more to offer with 6 months experience. Why don't you kick ass at your current job for 1.5 years, get your CPA, then use your solid undergrad degree to get into a good mba program and take it from there.

(again don't go all crazy about how you need to know to advice on)

My main question is,

  1. when would be the best(if any)time to initiate the contacts?
  2. any recruiter contacts in NY branch?

Thanks, and hope to hear much advice(or crap) from you all.

[/quote]

 

YES its worth it...

Think about framing yourself in a better light...

NYU BIG 4 Firm HIgh gMAT CPA Great recommendations NYC experience

A not so great GPA isn't going to hold you back unless you can't get into a good mba program, top 7 for ibanking.

 

actually i am, so i guess i'm on the right track? haha

another question is,

if i start contacts now, and let's say i don't get any, then is that gonna hurt me in the future? (in 2 years?)

if it does, i might as well wait, but if it doesn't, i might as well try, no?

thanks again for your inputs

 

I am in a similar boat with you. Big 4 looking to go into investment banking afterwards. However, the firms I have looked into generally want 3 years minimum experience in public accounting and an MBA from a top 20 school.

I would think that you would be able to get into a top program with big 4 experience (so I also assume you had a good undergrad GPA), a cpa (requires 2 years of audit experience in NY, so you might want to reconsider working longer than 1.5 years), and a good gmat score.

 

ok, add columbia and mit, i knew i would forget some...but my point is more not which ones they are but that there are a select number of target ones to shoot for...

there are tons of posts about the school issue.

 

There seems to be this ill-conceived notion on this site (and several others) that it is impossible to make the switch from accounting to IB without a top business school to re-brand yourself. I know several people who have done it, and I am the process of doing it myself (from audit instead of tax). Going back to get your MBA helps, but it is not required. You likely won't end up BB, but you might be able to get into a good second tier bank. Asian Monkey was right about spinning a good story; make sure your resume and cover letter stress the aspects most related to what you want to do. For instance, I audited FS clients and recently recreated a valuation of an acquisition target as part of our audit procedures. I spent a few weeks on the project, but it gives me something relevant to talk about in my interviews. Obviously the other important thing is to network like hell. I went to a small (top rated) liberal arts school, so it was pretty easy to get alumni to go to bat for me e-mailing and calling HR directors etc. If that is not a possibility for you, track down the pages on this site about networking, and settle in for a long and tedious process.

 

It has been done. Like backonthis said, if you keep trying you will be able to find IBD, just a matter of the esize of bank and length of time it takes you. It really comes down to how bad you want it. Keep us updated and hopefully we can see the "success story" sometime in the WSO headline soon

 

I think the question is not whether you can enter These firms, but how good These firms are that you can enter. At what Kind of Level are you aiming at?

I was already so far beyond the point of no return that I couldn't remember what it had looked like when I had passed it.
 

...there are people who do make the switch, albeit rare. I know someone who did 1 year Audit then got into elite boutique banking

Also, I have spoken with people who went from Valuation at Big 4 to Hedge Funds, PE, and Banking at BB/MM.

It def happens "enough" that you can find one person on linkedin

 

i wouldn't downgrade big 4...

so many people make the switch. maybe not many from audit but advisory, valuation, corp finn. I've seen a lot make the switch to top IBD.

to the OP.... hes most likely doing Strategic Risk Management for a BB

 

I've seen the switch made at lower levels (i.e. after 1-2 years at a Big 4). All of the former Big 4 managers that I've seen eventually get into IBD have gone back to get their MBAs and are now associates. I've never seen one go back as an analyst in IBD.

FP, yes it usually takes 5+ years to make manager at a Big 4.

 

^ I've heard of one manager who went back to become a lateral IBD analyst. I think most do their MBAs and transition to associates like you said, but not everyone wants to take on the $100K debt for b-school, and these days b-school doesn't guarantee an IBD position.

It does seem like a huge cut - and it is, in some responsibilities and base pay, but all-in pay is better. I do agree though that as a manager, it probably makes more sense to do MBA --> IB, if debt isn't an issue.

 

If you want exit opps outside of public accounting, you need to go to a Big 4. I interviewed with Grant Thornton this fall, and they are a great company and growing quickly, but they don't have that name brand that is really what you need to make your accounting experience stand out, especially trying to transition into IB.

 

Does a Big4 look better than a regional firm (i.e. Grant Thornton) or does it not matter? - obviously, but both are pretty bad.

Do you think it would be easy for me to transition into i-banking given my situation? - no

What position would I likely start at? - if its a tier 3 or 4 MBA program, analyst

What would you guess my salary would be? - the same as a 21 year old kid from h/y/p.

Are there other alternatives to i-banking activities without working 75+ hours? - mcdonalds

 
WhoSteen:
Hello all.

I'll just get straight to the point, I go to a non target in which almost no one gets recruited by BB's but plenty by the Big 4. I'm planning to transfer into NYU, but even if I get accepted money will be a huge problem, but anyways this is in the case i dont get into NYU. For any of the I-Bankers out there and people that are experienced with this sort of stuff, is it a common path to get some big 4 experience and then go get an MBA (I live in NY, so I'd be aiming for either Columbia or NYU) and get onto the street in IB? Would you imagine it working? Or would I be better off just working at a boutique and working my way up?

MBA in Stern or Columbia will provide you with a really good chance to break into IB on the street at the associate position. Anyone who wants a career change into IB would usually do it through b-school. If you're set on IB and can manage working at a boutique then do the boutique. You save money and I'm sure there will be opportunities opening down the road 2-3 years assuming the economy gets back on track. If not, then b-school will still be an option. Best track Boutique --> possibly MBA as opposed to big 4 --> MBA, assuming you really want to do IB.

Best of luck

 

It all depends on where in Advisory you call. As many of the previous posts of the Big 4 will have indicated, the Advisory group can be really broad, and depending on where you fall within that group, it can have an impact on your chances and ease of transition to IBD.

if you're in one of the Transaction services advisory groups, your chances are better since its M&A focused, you're just on a different stage of the spectrum, but if you're in the Management Consulting track, you'll have to get a bit more creative in terms of how applicable your experience is. I've seen people make the switch from both groups, I don't think its easy by any means but definitely doable. Being in a more client-facing professional can always help position you better for IBD.

And to address your concern about complex accounting questions, I wouldn't expect any during your interview - I'd imagine the accounting you do have and the experience you have should be enough, but others can feel free to keep me honest if im wrong here. But again, it really depends on the group, and also your interviewer, some are known to be more dick-ish than others.

Hugo
 

Well I think he might be talking about an audit role at the big 4. (you do have to know some accounting to do THAT job :D). From there you could try to get into a Big 4 transaction team and from there to IBD. If your chances are better than breaking in from your current job, I don't know... Big 4 Transactions is often talked about as being a pretty decent stepping stone, but the way over audit might just be a litte too long in Terms of years. Do you still have your MBA card to play? Because Transactions -> MBA -> IBD should be a pretty doable path.

 

I've seen one or two people lateral to IB as a Senior in Big 4 (must more common with only 1 or 2 years of Big 4 though), but personally I think you're better off getting an MBA and then joining as an Associate, any top 15 MBA will get you into a decent investment bank if you network and aren't socially awkward (or at least can BS through interviews enough to make people believe you're not socially awkward).

If you join now as an analyst, you'll most likely have to think about MBA 3 years down the line anyway in order to get promoted if you choose to stay in banking. That said, it's much easier to burn out after 3 years of analyst than associate, especially when you're older. When you start as an associate, you're thinking you just have to put up with shit for 3 years before making VP where life gets much better. But when you start as an analyst, you'll just get shitted on for another 3 years as an associate. If you get sick of the work (which most do), then what do you do after? MBA (which is basically what you could do now)? PE may be an option, but you likely won't get into a very big bank coming from a lateral position with 3 years if Big 4 experience which means limited PE exit opps (obviously not impossible I've seen it done too). You could go into Corp Dev/Corp Strat, but realize you'll be taking a considerable pay cut when you're older and less willing to do so. Or the other option is to join your Big 4 firm's TS/TAS group doing M&A DD (not the Valuations group), and hope to lateral directly into a buyside role at a small fund which I've also seen or move into some kind of Corp Dev/Strat role. You could also look into your Big 4's corporate finance arm that does MM IB (to be clear, all Big 4 have MM IB, this is distinct from the TS/TAS group). I've heard that their lives are pretty sweet, less pay than traditional investment banks but better hours and lifestyle.

I think you definitely have options as a Senior in Big 4 (despite what some people here may say), but I don't know if an Analyst is the best move in the long run, for your career, health and happiness. I've seen a lot of people burn out and begin to hate their job, and it's much easier falling down that path when you're an older analyst.

Edit: This is only applicable to IB, can't speak for asset management/investment firms.

 

I had a friend who did an internship with one of the big four and then tried to into banking full time. He got interviews with like 16 firms because of his GPA, but he also got grilled on technicals a hell of a lot more than those with banking experince. I mean to the point where they were asking him stuff some people in currently in banking wouldn't know, like industry specific valuation methods. Needless to say he works full time with one of the big four now.

So I guess the answer is going to be tough. Sorry.

 

As canadian said, it'll get you an interview most likely. It's up to you to ace the interview, just like everybody else. And yes, your technicals will probably be harder, though it should be more accouting based than industry specific valuation methods (don't think they would ask that even if you had top bb experience, unless you lie to them and say you're interested in X industry when in fact you don't know shit).

 

It is still tough coming from the Big 4 because i-banks know how much easier it is to get into the big 4 as opposed to a lot of the other investment banks. So they are going to be skeptical about whether you can do this work initially

 

get in to corporate finance....pwc and other big 4 are strong in the mid market sector here in europe..

if u cant get in to that...try transaction services/transaction support as they do due dilligence work and u get some exposure on deals

 

Stick with Transaction Services (would also have said their Structured Finance practice but given the market...well you know).  The thing with most of the Big 4 who don't have Corp Fin practices is that you're not going to learn any relevant skills, but it's an easy thing to spin to show your interest in finance.  Personally, I know for a fact the jump from Big 4 internship to IB is doable.  The biggest problem is overcoming the "accountant" stereotype and knowing your finance extremely well.  Be able to speak well about your story and why you thought accounting would give you a great foundation for IB.

 

I have a possible internship lined up with PwC's auditing dept. I go to a non-target and not a single IB, MM or anything of the sort recruit at my campus. The Big4 do, however, recruit for Auditing and Tax. I'm in a similar position as the original poster. How would you suggest I pitch myself to a recruiter of an IB?

 

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Best, SoulSearching
 

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Fear is the greatest motivator. Motivation is what it takes to find profit.
 

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success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”