Comments (39)

Jan 10, 2018

life is short. I don't see any positives about staying there

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Jan 10, 2018

Why don't you stand up to your boss? You shouldn't let anyone treat you that way regardless of how much they are paying you.

Jan 10, 2018

You need to respectfully tell your boss the situation and ask him to be more understanding and realize that you're having to cover 2-3 people's work as a relatively new hire. Tell him/her that you understand the pressure he/she may be feeling by needing to get work done and to live up to the MD's standards and that you want to work together but they need to realize what I mentioned in the first sentence. Give him/her some guidelines about how to interact with you in a more constructive, helpful and respectful way.

In the meantime, start looking for new work and interview elsewhere. Once you have another offer in hand, give your notice at your current position. Life is too short to put up with shit like this.

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Jan 10, 2018

I agree with what others have said. Try to get your boss to understand, seems like your MD does. But look for a job elsewhere, or ask MD if you could be moved elsewhere where you can be more productive. Your boss sounds like an asshole btw. Life is too short, you should enjoy working and learn new things. Not be hounded constantly by some ego inflated prick. Just my opinion though.

    • 3
Jan 10, 2018

Start looking for a job elsewhere. There is a possibility that they're looking to replace you.

    • 4
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Jan 11, 2018

If the MD knows then I doubt they would look to replace but supplement. Espically with the fact that two to three people used to be in that position.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Jan 10, 2018

I would also recommend that you look for another job, whilst gritting your teeth at your current one. From what you've written, it seems that you're hardworking and diligent and stuck in a toxic environment. I think you're being undervalued at your current employer and would have much more potential to prosper elsewhere.

Best Response
Jan 11, 2018

Echoing the others, find another employer. You do not want to be stuck in an organization where people like your current manager are allowed to come into positions of relative authority. To the people suggesting that you have some sort of heart to heart with your manager: You can't reason with malicious intent.

Make no mistake about this, any halfway competent manager would have understood your situation and given more support to you and would have cut you plenty of slack. If the MD sees it, you can assume that it's trivial. Your manager is just being a dick, and you should quit and leave him/her in the shit once you get an offer elsewhere. Good luck!

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Jan 11, 2018

It's easy to dismiss him as cruel, but you need to consider why he is acting this way. From the info provided, it seems like his boss (the MD i guess) has left him extremely short staffed, and has forced a hire onto him who is arguably unqualified. I expect the boss is trying to fast track you being let go, not for personal distaste for you, but simply to get a more competent workforce in the shortest space of time. This is really the only logical reason he would be setting you up to fail in those meetings, because it's obviously the MD's decision to walk you, so he is trying to sell that idea (and prove a point about the original hiring).

Again, this is just concluded from what you have said, and could be completely wrong. The point is though that you need to think critically about his motivations.

If the above is correct, your best bet is to:
a) Look elsewhere

b) Suck up to the MD and impress him as much as possible

c) Call your boss on it, and let him know that the MD is sticking to his guns with you, and that he is better to work through it then continue to cause damage getting rid of you.

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Jan 12, 2018

You brought up a very good viewpoint, thank you for it. I do admit that I'm not the best fit around. They hired me at the lowest level possible - even lower than previously hired analysts and at a lower pay. I'm not sure if this is a cost cutting thing - for all I know, the MD gave the budget only for a super junior person and maybe, like you've mentioned, he's trying to prove his point that he needs someone more senior - but his budget definitely won't have been enough to hire someone with experience.

But I do believe it's also a... protectionism thing. My boss comes from a country and his main language is a language I can't speak. The previous associate came from this country as well, and the senior associate who was let off previously is not. So between saving the both, the associate who left is preferred over the senior associate. The senior associate who was let off is in another team now and sits near me so I have worked with him. In fact, his skill sets are better suited than the associate who left (in terms of coding, sql, macros, etc, which seems to be dominant in this role - we really are not in an IT team, it amazes me how much we rely on coding for a front office role in capital markets or I wouldn't have taken this role up in the first place, coming from a totally non IT related background). I suppose he's now eating his own bitter pill by saving someone who was less qualified than the senior associate who was let off and the associate who was saved was the one who couldn't cope and left 6 months after that.

Having had time to think about it, I suppose it was extremely naive of me to think that if I work hard at it, if I keep my head low, if I am willing to learn that people will be willing to teach me and that I can excel. It is not. Politics will always play a part. Protectionism will always play a part. Favouritism will always play a part. Life is not fair, and that's fine. I can choose to be the person who goes around blaming luck, or I can suck it up and learn to play the game. It's actually a very good lesson and I'm glad I'm learning this now than when I have a mortgage under my name.

Jan 11, 2018

I doubt this is the case, because OP said that the team had one or two more senior associates leave recently. This means the current manager is likely sitting on 1-2 open headcount, meaning that OP is not an obstacle to getting another potentially better candidate hired. By not training and coaching OP, the manager is just making his own life more difficult as the time it will take to get a competent analyst is being prolonged.

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Jan 12, 2018

You're going to have to look elsewhere for employment.

I haven't had such a toxic environment like that, but one must make a decision about the value of taking the abuse at a position and take a sort of fight or flight response with their career.

Be sure to deflect everything, smile, take the shit from the boss, offer to work late, anything ... because your main priority here is finding another job ASAP, giving you the ability to resign and not get fired.

If you get fired and you don't have a job, you're in a rough spot even if you were not to blame. It's going to be so much easier applying with your current job active. Downplay how dire it is in interviews and forget bringing a shread of desperation into the room. A good interviewer will sniff out desperation like a 9.5 chick at the bar. It's all confidence, all professionalism, and the most likely thing I would say as to why you're leaving in interviews is that you've learned all you need to know there and you're looking for new challenge to provide a greater impact to X Y or Z etc.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Jan 12, 2018

[Comment has been deleted as I don't want to be identified, but thank you everyone for the advice!]

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Jan 12, 2018

let us know what he says when u throw your letter to him. (he probably will apologize since now he has to take on your long hours for the time being)

Jan 19, 2018

I am not in banking but here is my advice:

  1. some advices may be overlooking the part about needing a working visa. This leads me to believe that you are also a minority. What one person said above is correct. Double click on this. Most of the advice about talking to your boss, communicating better etc do NOT, in reality apply to you. The deck is already stacked for you (or more precisely, against you) so proceed with that in mind.
  2. I don't normally like visiting such forums while at work, let alone commenting on them, but I am doing that now because your post caught my attention and I sympathized as I have been or I am currently in a semi-similar situation.
  3. Simply forget about being able to work things out with your boss. Whatever his motivation, prejudices or whatever, is already set. Nothing you do will change that. He is invested in his position and probably has a long term behavior and mindset that you will not change.
  4. Take what the MD said or says to you with a huge grain of salt. Do not assume he sympathizes with you. I understand you are young so this may not be in your mind but I highly doubt what is going on in his mind when he talks to you is what you assume. He is interested in getting his role proceeding smoothly. Your situation in no way helps him with that. There is no way he is genuinely apologizing to you about your boss. More likely, he is assessing the situation by talking to you directly and seeing first hand 'what you are about'. I would caution you against complaining too freely or openly about your boss or other working conditions. Like the thing about the lady is completely irrelevant. That kind of thing is purely your problem, not theirs (either your boss or the MD).
  5. IMMEDIATELY start applying for other positions, wherever in the world. Don't assume you need to stay at the location/country where you are currently. Go wherever YOU, personally, might have a better quality of life daily. However I am not with the majority opinion that you should leave this job immediately. Do apply, experience what it takes to get the jobs that you want, but stick with the job for as long as you can. Just be ready to jump if things deteriorate. I think if you can make it to 9mos-1year, you are good.
  6. This won't be a pleasant advice to read but get a thick skin going forward. Learn when to brush things aside and when to push for respect. If people do not affect your day to day life but have an attitude about you, learn to brush them off and in some cases show them a stern face that says you don't tolerate their attitude. Most bully types back away when you meet them with a stern straight face. They won't like you but who cares. If they have an effect on your day to day life but don't directly sign your paycheck, tread carefully but still let them know that you are all business (this includes people who may be subordinates but can affect you in small petty ways like by stalling things etc). Just let those type of people know that you are very serious when it comes to work and won't hesitate to hold them accountable for work related things. If the person who is has an attitude about you also signs your paycheck, then follow the more complex advice. But the point is, know what type of people are a problem you should dwell on and what type are not a problem you should be dwelling on.

Good luck.

p.s. Also, follow through. If you say you will delete your comment, make sure you do so at some point if you have indeed included identifying information.

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Jan 19, 2018
chamma:

This won't be a pleasant advice to read but get a thick skin going forward. Learn when to brush things aside and when to push for respect. If people do not affect your day to day life but have an attitude about you, learn to brush them off and in some cases show them a stern face that says you don't tolerate their attitude. Most bully types back away when you meet them with a stern straight face. They won't like you but who cares. If they have an effect on your day to day life but don't directly sign your paycheck, tread carefully but still let them know that you are all business (this includes people who may be subordinates but can affect you in small petty ways like by stalling things etc). Just let those type of people know that you are very serious when it comes to work and won't hesitate to hold them accountable for work related things. If the person who is has an attitude about you also signs your paycheck, then follow the more complex advice. But the point is, know what type of people are a problem you should dwell on and what type are not a problem you should be dwelling on.

Echoing this and bold is my emphasis.

It sucks that you're caught in a position like this, but hope you are able to find new work ASAP and get out of there. The whole "have some compassion" is bullshit if you want to be around people who do good work and have a good attitude. I know plenty of people with chronic pain who aren't shitty, horrible human beings. That's a dumb excuse and frankly, not conducive to the kind of workplace you would like to be in anyway.

Jan 12, 2018

x

Jan 12, 2018

Replied this through my phone and it seems that I have double replied. Ignore the comment, I can't seem to delete it.

Jan 12, 2018

Either directly confront your boss and tell him to cool it down or look for a job elsewhere.
Most bullies are very weak when you confront them. Failing to do so will only make it worse.

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Jan 12, 2018

As someone who has been in a similar situation, not being treated as aggressively in your case but still felt neglected, I would suggest that you leave immediately. When you're working long hours and you don't feel valued at all, staying can cause enormous psychological damage that can take a lot of time to fix, and this will carry over into your personal life. I remember the day after I quit I thought that immediately I would feel better. I did for a little bit but it took a few months of trying to reset my life and make meaningful connections that slowly but surely brought me back to normal.

The bottom line: Fuck negative people. They are a cancer and the sooner you leave and regain the hope of finding a better situation, the better.

Jan 20, 2018

This x10. My first job and direct manager out of college were cancer. It was so disappointing considering it was the best office in the nation at our firm for the work we were doing, and our team of 10-15 people (7-8 brokers) pulled in $40mm in fees. The analysts were working ~80 hours a week and got paid ~$50k apiece all in at the end of year 1. Meanwhile, we were being told to increasingly work HARDER and that all of us should routinely be in the office past 12 AM each night. The MD I worked under has/had serious anger problems and was a raging alcoholic.

The end result was that they lost 6 people within 3 months (including me), and probably took sizable hit to P&L. I ended up seeing a wonderful talk therapist who helped me overcome the massive resulting depression/anxiety and realize that life is WAY too short to tolerate that type of work environment. Things are better now and life goes on.

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Jan 12, 2018

Wow, thank you for sharing that. I can't believe that your office was that successful in bringing in fees yet management was that awful. Where did you end up / what are you trying to do now?

Jan 12, 2018

I dealt with a similar situation so I feel for you. The fact that the MD is defending the behavior of the incompetent/inept superiors is extremely telling. In many ways, he's worse than the two direct superiors since he's been enabling this shitty culture. This has been documented/studied fairly well, but unless there's a documented, long track record of employee incompetence/attitude problems, any supervisor who throws their subordinates under the bus is not very intelligent for two reasons: 1) they don't realize that this makes them look incapable of teaching/mentoring/getting the most out of their team, 2) it makes them look childish since they not only failed to recognize a mistake/errors in your work product, but now won't take responsibility for it. It sounds like this supervisor has had to fire someone else before as well, so that could be the start of a trend that won't bode well for him in the long run.

You most certainly need to cut bait, but depending on how long you have to endure it (i.e., if you want to take the route of finding a new gig prior to leaving), there are certain things you can do to make your life livable and at least get some entertainment out of it. Such as: 1) every time you send anything to your boss or do something good, try to keep email traffic of it. Then when he takes credit, send it to the MD. I wouldn't recommend doing this to anyone looking to keep their job, since it will sow even more distrust with your superior once the shit hits the fan with this. 2) document everything that has been or is continuing to be said to you (emails, secret tape recorder, etc.), and give it to HR piece-meal (assuming that your shop has an HR department). Judging from how shitty the culture and people are there, not saying anything major will come of this, but at least it may give you some small entertainment on your way out.

If, as I write this, you've already given notice, then flip everyone the metaphorical bird and move on. The fact that you've tried to endure it for this long says a lot of good things about you, so hold your head high and try to learn as much stuff as you can before you leave and look forward to the next step of your career.

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Jan 12, 2018

You're worried about looking like a job hopper when you should be worried about looking unemployed. Get another job.

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Jan 12, 2018

I haven't read what other folks are saying, but I have to ask (not expecting an answer) - but what is your demographic? This behavior from your direct boss sounds very insidious...If you're a minority I would double click on that.

I know I'll get shit for writing such liberal-infused thoughts, but food for thought.

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Jan 12, 2018

Here's a quote from Power that really helped me in the past and is relevant to your situation.
*
There are two important implications of the durability and rapid creation of first impressions. First, if you find yourself in a place where you have an image problem and people don't think well of you, for whatever reason, it is often best to leave for greener pastures. This is tough advice to hear and heed--many people want to demonstrate how wonderful they are by working diligently to change others' minds and repair their image. But such efforts are seldom successful, for all the reasons just enumerated, and moreover, they take a lot of effort. Better to demonstrate your many positive qualities in a new setting where you don't have to overcome so much baggage. Second, because impressions are formed quickly and are based on many things, such as similarity and "chemistry" over which you have far from perfect control, you should try to put yourself in as many different situations as possible--to play the law of large numbers. If you are a talented individual, over time and in many contexts, that talent will appear to those evaluating you. But in any single instance, the evaluative judgment that forms the basis for your reputation will be much more random. This advice is consistent with that offered on network building, where again the best practice is to widely disperse your network building efforts and build many weak ties. Don't get hung up on making a favorable impression in any single place, but instead find an environment in which you can build a great reputation and keep trying different environments until this effort succeeds.*

I was also in a position where I felt increasingly underappreciated. My morale was at an all time low because, as I think you're feeling, if I can't make it here, then why would anyone else want to take a chance on me? Can I not make it anywhere?

I'll tell you there are so many factors out of your control that impact these things. I am in a place that's 100x better because I love the work, I love the people, and it's something that fits my personality better. Go find that, because it's out there. You sound very earnest and you want to make a difference. If this place isnt' for you, seriously, it's okay. There is a place for you and if it's not this one, it literally means nothing. Good luck.

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Jan 12, 2018

Just about every professional writing on WSO has had a bad boss (myself included), and I agree it makes life miserable. However, to provide a truncated yet thought provoking addition to this thread, I think you're response towards the situation (although understandable) is simply incorrect.

The apparent fact (as voiced by others) is that you cannot change your manager, or senior managements attitude. However I know for a fact that you can better control how you respond to these events. My own advice: Stop complaining and remaining stagnant, and take some decisive action here.

From a non-objective standpoint there are really two options:
1.) Make it work at your current place of employment and tough it out
2.) Find another job

I say this in a tough hearted way because I found myself in a similar situation and waited way to long to take this advice seriously. Right now I'm looking at a 1000 words (of your own) on why you should leave the company. Find a clear head, and think analytically about pros and cons of staying. Once you've made your decision, act decisively. Don't complain and wallow; by doing the latter you're simply wasting time and health.

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Jan 19, 2018

I have been in a similar situation before - not as bad with the overt hostility, but with constantly being setup for failure, overlooked etc. Like many have said - there's no other way but to find another job. I've had very compassionate/understanding superbosses. But most banks suck at dealing with situations like this. Your health is more important than a damn job - find another one.

Jan 19, 2018

Unfortunately, if you're coming to this board seeking advice regarding a toxic work environment/relationship, you've probably unknowingly answered your own question regarding what you should do (find a new job). The good fortune you do have going for you currently is a very robust job market. If you have marketable skills, even if they do not mesh well with your current position, you should be able to find something more suitable.

Speaking from the other side of the table, as one who has been in management roles throughout my career, I can honestly say that once a subordinate has lost my trust, it is nearly impossible to recover. We humans are fickle creatures, and if you have someone who is in a supervisory position over you who berates you, does not appreciate your contribution to the cause, and treats you poorly; as others have said: life is too short. Get out!

That said, obviously, leave on amicable terms by giving adequate notice, have another job in the pipeline before turning in your walking papers, and do not allow yourself to be drawn into a confrontation with the individual who has caused you so much difficulty. Too many opportunities out there, with too many good companies who are looking for good people to allow yourself to stay in a job that makes you miserable. Best wishes.

Jan 19, 2018

I was in your shoes before - tough working environment but need a working visa. Totally can feel your pain!

My suggestion : ( not the best, but worked for me.)

  1. Immediately start looking for jobs. If you boss does not like you and you need a working visa , the consequences is either you got fired w/o visa and you go back to your country, or you got rotten and eaten in this position with the big possibility to be over used without appreciation. So , no matter how hard, start job hunting right away. This is a plan B for you when you got faired tomorrow ( although i said that, it is less likely to happen since it looks like they need more human to do more work instead of firing people. ) however, you will never know.
  2. I agree one of the commenter's notes - you are a little bit too open about your issues and concerns. How much do you know your MD and how much do you know your boss?
  3. So to deal with No.2, please stand up for yourself - learn to say NO to your boss and create your boundaries. You may be worried about that what if the NO will return you a negative notice, so it goes back to No.1 - start finding a job immediately. You are just on board for a few months. It's gonna take quite a while for your find another good one, especially under the situation Trump has tightened the immigration rules and it needs time to transfer your visa. It is very likely to take you another 4 - 6 months to say bye bye to your lovely boss. By then, this working experience is almost a year... Not bad on your resume

So take action and good luck!

Jan 19, 2018

First, let me say sorry that you are going through this. It seems your boss is terrorizing you and it must be devastating to feel you may lose your job. He sounds mentally ill to be honest. No manager in their right mind throws their reporting employee under the boss during a presentation. My advice, get out as quickly as possible because I can feel the desperation in your post which can lead to a mental breakdown if you hang around much longer. Don't stay and put up with this kind of shit from this dick. Best of luck.

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Jan 20, 2018

Another vote here for find another job. Your boss and group are unprofessional and toxic on a whole other level. This is not a battle you can win or is worth fighting, because there is nothing to be gained.

It's always easier to find something while employed - so starting today, devote some time to: updating your resume, looking at postings (LinkedIn and etc), crafting your story & prepping, and networking. I'm not suggesting you completely neglecting work (you don't want them to get suspicious), but it sounds like your efforts aren't being appreciated - if your boss isn't taking credit or giving you his share, he's debasing and straight up harassing you in front of everyone. So it's clear that whether you're leaving at 3am or 9-10pm, the outcome is the same - he's out to get you. What's he going to do, yell at you more? So you might as well claw back some time for you to regain your sanity, get perspective, and get out.

While the MD sounds like he understands and is sympathetic, it also sounds like he's allowing for this shit to happen, but saying it's wrong to cover his ass. If I were in this position, I'd ask him if there's anything he can do for you (transfer, discussion with director, etc), not just merely advice. If he's not willing - then he's just as much as part of the problem. I would talk to HR in this case given it's so toxic. I would also try and get documentation and proof of the abuse. The reason is not because I think it will help "fix" the problem (I think this is a lost cause), but it's to protect yourself in case the employer wants to dismiss you on the grounds of incompetence. You want to protect your reputation, and be able to have proof (for outside of this firm, or anything else) that this is a toxic wasteland.

I suggested all the above because you also need to prepare yourself for the very realistic possibility that you'll get let go (or fired under a pretense of incompetence). Because your boss is trying to kick you out to make a case for getting more experienced juniors, because he's a psycho asshole, both, or whatever. But keep proof that it's a toxic place and that you've done everything you can. Also, if it happens, don't get too down on yourself and know that this is not normal office behavior.

Being in a place like this can seriously fuck up someone's psyche. And depression and being in a toxic place can really mess you up (creating a lot of self doubt, cause you to lose confidence, cause you to make mistakes, leave you in a dark and lonely place). Make sure you're taking to family and friends. Networking outside of the firm (with peers, or ppl a bit further along in their careers) can also give you perspective on what healthier environments look like. It makes it easier to leave your workplace which has normalized bad behavior.

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Feb 17, 2018

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Jan 21, 2018

It looks like you've made your decision, which is a good one.

The MD's comments to you are very assuring. In most of these large organizations, it is the low-level and mid-level managers that are trying to protect their own job security that is hindering sensible work practices. The MD being understanding tells me you do not need to worry about your job security as long as you are trying your best.

However, I believe you need to step up your ability to not let this abuse affect you negatively. If you know you are not in the wrong, then all this crap should have a minimal impact on your integrity as a person. Taking shit is part of every job. You don't need to let it affect you. Let the boss scream and rant and your facial expression can be blank. You can be completely unaffected.

This may be a weird thing to recommend, but having taken martial arts classes that have given me enough of a foundation on how to handle myself, I've found that if you're armed with the knowledge that you can take on 90% of random people on the street in a fist fight, then anyone at work becomes a lot less scary no matter how senior they are and how much they're ripping you to shreds.

Good luck.

Jan 22, 2018

Was in a similar situation a 4 years ago. I have a consulting background (MBB) for 2 years before going to a firm that was terrible. I too have an unconventional background, military right out of high school, then target UG, top tier MSF.
Left consulting due to travel, I had just gotten married, and I wanted to do my MBA part time. Got hired by a 3rd tier PE shop and it was miserable from day 1. Told them during the interview process I was going to do my EMBA part time and that I was already accepted and committed to doing my MBA and that it was weekends. They said it would not be a problem since it was a weekend program. There were numerous red flags prior to joining and joining.
1 - prior to my first day I asked about work attire as consulting is normally business casual. During my interviews everyone was in slacks and a button down. I was told prior to my first day numerous times attire was business casual and I showed up my first day and got a lecture from two idiot associates about how we all need to be in suits and ties. I let them know that a VP and a MD told me business casual after that I was labeled as a back talker with a bad attitude.
2 - first day one of those associates goes off at lunch about how he put in his two weeks and how much the firm sucks. Huge red flag but this same associate made my life miserable for 6 months
3 - I had class my third weekend at the firm. I sent numerous emails stating I had class those weekends. I am in class and during my lunch break I have 20 missed calls from my office from both associates asking where I was. They even went to apartment to look for me. Huge red flag! Keep in mind we had no actual work to do that weekend these associates liked to pretend that they did work at the office on weeks aka "grinding" as they put it. In reality they goofed off and watched sports.
At this point I started passively looking for a new job. I know you have had two jobs right out of UG but if someone has a target for you they will get you fired. This is an abridged version of the story but the partner who hired me started harassing me after the associates said my work had a ton of errors. Issue is these guys never checked my work. Also these guys were politicking to get me fired from day 1 sometimes coworkers have issues with people for no reason and I could hear them in our conference room finding ways to get me fired with that partner. At that point the partner starts calling me after 10 pm telling me I better be running models and that he needs XYZ done by 5 am.
Looking back I was actually incredibly nice to these guys but for whatever reason they did not like me. Some of it was jealously and some of it was the guys are just POS. Eventually I did get another offer at a mega fund and left. I gave two weeks but the situation was so hostile that I left immediately and said I thought staying here another two weeks would not be a good idea.
What goes around comes around the industry is too small especially in NYC. I get asked by my LPs what I think of their firm because even though I do not have it on my linkedin or resume people still knew I worked there for a few months because the guys I worked with there still say they know me.
What happened to those guys?
The partner who was a complete douche emailed me a dozen times after I left and I never responded. Mainly asking for favors and introductions. I ran into him once at lunch and didn't give him the time of day but he suggested we grab coffee and catch up. After that I got a bunch of texts and never responded. Not really interested in having coffee with a complete POS.
One of the associates who was a complete prick got fired a year later went to another firm and got fired after 6 months for being a total douche. He's currently at another firm we are in a JV with and recently got fired. He recently called and asked me if I would refer him to my firm since we are hiring. I said no.
Moral of the story
You can't please everybody and some people just will never like you. Training new employees and existing employees is part of being a great leader. If I have a new analyst who has questions I thoroughly go over with them how to do it and why it does done that way how it affects numbers. Something I have seen in finance is there is an "ugh" from someone when they have to train people. Those individuals will have rough careers. I have had sr analyst/associates who work for me who have an attitude about training people and I tell them if you cannot train the next group of analyst you are in the wrong line of work. By training them it frees you up to more high level tasks.

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Jan 20, 2018

Thanks for sharing. Definitely a good story on 'what goes around comes around'.

One thing I'm curious about (and only if you're willing to share), you mentioned you were able to move over to a mega fund after a few months at the 3rd tier PE shop. Wouldn't you wanting to leave only after a few months be a big question mark for them? How did you successfully socialize that the first PE shop was a complete shitshow culture and professionalism wise without it coming off as you being a whiner/liar from the MF's perspective?

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Feb 19, 2018

Well, it was a complicated situation but I was doing my EMBA (think target full time mba) and was able to have a professor of mine network me to a MD at a mega fund. Your professors are your biggest ally. They know everybody! On a side not I actually do not recommend an EMBA unless you are over 35 I did mine quite young 30.

Eventually I sat down with a MD explained to him how the role was not deal focused and how the team was already built and there didn't seem to be long term growth. He kind of already knew the group and knew they had a poor reputation. The initial meeting was just on general career advice. I wanted to work for his firm but I didn't come out and say "hey give me a job". His firm was at OCR and I had handed my resume.

I had coffee with the MD 3 times in a short period and we connected over growing up in the same area and having unconventional backgrounds. Over a few coffees I let him know my career goals, more about my background, and my current employment situation. He did give me some advice on how to handle the situation I was in and acted more as mentor.

After a few coffees he asked if I submitted my resume through OCR. He followed up with HR and got me an interview within a few days. He had told the guys I was interviewing about my background and had given then some good feedback. Gave me a good nod because the role was more senior than my current role and was post MBA. During the interview I had a modeling assessment and then a super day. Was given a call the next day and offered a job.

Your question of on did anybody care that I wanted leave my current firm after only a few months? No, because as I told then in the interview that this was a better opportunity and my dream job.

Although the MD got me an interview I had to sell the team on me. I had my 1 minute elevator pitch down and my resume and experience memorized. Everyone is smart, everyone went to a great school but the real thing is do I want to be around you all day. The best advice I give is network network and network.

Also when you network and someone goes to bat for you, you better be the first one in and the last one out. Better quadruple check your work and write a huge thank you letter.

Once a year year I go and I speak to my alma matter and I tell everyone it's about networking. If you are in this room you are smart and beat out many people to get into this school with a low acceptance rate and it's even harder to transfer but there are 50 other schools with guys just as smart as you if not smarter. The key is the be relatable and ask the team questions about themselves and try to relate on some level.

I do not ask technical questions in interviews. Technical questions are irrelvant and a false indicator of knowledge. That's why we have a modeling assessment. I ask questions on social behavior, hobbies, why someone chose what college they went to, what they know about our firm, what they know about our team (we send bios out before interviews), and what questions they ask me.

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Jan 10, 2018
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Jan 23, 2018
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