Breaking into Banking is NOT Like Applying to College
Mod Note (Andy): #TBT Throwback Thursday - this was originally posted on 1/14/13. To see all of our top content from the past, click here.
I have seen a ton threads like "Chance Me", "Can I get a job at GS with these credentials", and a ton of retarded stuff in the main SA thread.
Listen, getting an interview for investment banking is not like getting accepted into college.
Some people say college is a crap shoot but really, it is more of a sure thing than most people think, unless we're talking Harvard. Anyway, if you have top SAT scores, a high GPA, took a ton of APs and were the president of multiple clubs, you will likely get into a few IVY's or other top schools.
Banking is nothing like that. It doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 in Economics at Wharton, you may not even have a good chance to get an interview at Goldman Sachs. No one has a GOOD chance to get an interview at a top bank. In fact, you could possible have ZERO chance if you don't have the right attitude, resume writing skills, and networking skills.
You could have a 3.7+ GPA and a solid internship and still come away with no offers, and even worse, no interviews. Stop treating this like you're in high school and what you have accomplished academically matters. Finance is about relationships and people skills.
Also, stop the Bulge Bracket BULL SHIT. There are boutiques with better deal flow, exit opportunities and compensation while also providing a better work-life balance. Bulge Brackets are not like Ivy league schools where they are better than almost every other school.
Lazard is better than most of the BBs.
Evercore is better than some of them.
Blackstone, Greenhill, Qatalyst, Moelis. HLHZ, Centerview are all arguably better than most bulge brackets.
UBS, BAML, and Citi are not what they used to be. Many people who know what they are talking about would gladly take Qatalyst over almost any bank sans maybe Blackstone or GS - but even still, it wouldn't be crazy to take Qatalyst.
Then you have firms like Guggenheim, Cowen, Raymond James, Stifel and a ton of other firms which are just as good.
Anyway, what I'm saying is...most of you won't make it if you don't change your attitude and the way you are approaching recruiting. Nothing is certain and NO ONE CAN CHANCE YOU for a job. You could be a dipshit who is good in class, yet you are bad at holding a conversation and therefore, you will never ever get a job in IBD.
So network, study your technicals and practice your story. That's what matters.
Oh, and shut the fuck up about exit ops. If you don't have a job, WHO THE FUCK CARES. Get a job first and then worry about that shit. I know, first hand, that it doesn't matter what group you're in or bank you work at, you can still get into PE or a HF. And this doesn't matter because most of you who wank it to PE don't even know what it is or how a deal works etc. How do you even know you want to do it?
Right, it's because you have no motivation besides what you heard your other friends jerk off to.
End of rant.
+1
AfuckingMEN. I'd be surprised if over 33% of the people on WSO could meaningfully explain what both a PE firm and a HF are.
Post of the year so far.
Agreed. This post is on point!
yea, but then who's going to wipe my bottom for me without the BB support staff? and girls in clubs dont know who Lazard are....
sounds a lot like hard work....
seriously though, can we add all this fashion advice to this rant too? who the fuck can't buy themselves a navy blue suit without asking a forum?! seriously, sort it out kids.
And to whoever threw 2 monkey shits at me, GO FUCK YOURSELF, I hope you never get a job.
lol. I love this guy
I like this post. very blunt but true
This commentary, while aggressively written is accurate.
You can have a polished résumé great experience and somehow get goose egged at internship selection, full time selection, etc.
The best way to get a job, any job, not just Wall Street is to know someone there who will vouch for you. Some people hate on fraternities, hate on "cliques", however if it's the right clique to be in... Guess what you're ahead of the game.
Unlike your college application which is almost entirely innocuous and not personal (save for athletes and other similar prefered entrance) the job market has massive bias. There is no doubt about it, if a Vice President or director hands me a résumé and he is from "non-target" and has similar experience as "target" with no direct hand off. Will choose the direct reference 100% of the time.
"A man is as valuable as his options" as soon as you have one strong option, doors open.
This needs to be on the front page permanently
yes.
+1 WH
How do you like them apples!!
a little exaggerated. grades and school still matter...a lot
I can tell from your post history that you are an asshole so of course you would disagree with my post that everyone else has agreed with so far. Your stupid ass GS Accelerated thread is one of the most putrid pieces of garbage I have ever seen and you should feel bad.
+1 good to see this; a lot of gay shit being posted lately from highschoolers and douchey undergrads
why are you so angry bro
Not angry. I just say the stuff that everyone wants to say.
Can we initiate a competence test for people who wish to make an account?
If they fail the test, make them pour through the FAQs, and don't allow them to post in threads until they pass a certain threshold.
It would be an attempt to shed some of the superfluous threads, and highlight the good ones. Also, it would probably reduce spam by 99%.
Just a thought here.
I'm sure you would be one of the failures. And judging from your post history, you seem to encourage the 'superfluous' threads so reign in your condemnation.
This.
While we are on the topic.
What are the chances of me getting a job at GS with this suit?
http://store.zegna.com/item/store/ermenegildozegna/tskay/B4ADC6EB/cod10…
Also what type of exit opps are possible with this suit?
Oh, the hilarity.
There's nothing wrong with asking someone in the industry, perhaps on this site, to provide some insight into their potential match to a job/firm. I mean, thats what this website is about. If people have issues with it, there is an option to not open that thread and post. Some people genuinely would want to help.
If you have top SAT scores, a high GPA, take a ton of finance related courses and are the president of multiple clubs at a target, you will likely get interviews at a few BB's or other top banks...
It sounds like getting an interview for investment banking is EXACTLY like getting accepted into college.
SAT scores are mostly irrelevant for IBD. A high GPA in high school is different from a high GPA in college due to major differences and school. Also, a high gpa does not guarantee you anything. I had plenty of friends with 3.8+ and internships from my target who were not able to land anything in banking. And clubs are a whole other story.
Being the president of the investment club means didly squat. At most schools it's a joke of a club so it should hold no weight. In fact, if the person screening your resume loves bowling, he will choose the kid with a 3.7 and on the bowling team over your 3.8 and investment club president credentials.
Like I said, it is not conventional. If you think it is, go ahead, I'll be waiting here when you end up with nothing.
+1 Sometimes I think people on this board live in an alternate universe.
Truth
I guess I picked a bad day to join WSO :'( (HS student)
Welcome. OP speaks the truth. Learn from this thread.
Thanks. Although I think the OP is a little too PO'd, I agree with most of it. I'm just a HS senior but I've seen a lot of stupid posts such as mentioned on websites like CollegeConfidential, but I generally don't consider myself to be so ignorant.
Nah man, it's always a good day to join WSO!
Thanks for the welcome
I agree that SAT's shouldn't matter as well as GPA and all of this extra academic bullshit. Its sad that academia has fused into finance but whatever. If you got balls and have taken the initiative to network your way in, you should be given a shot. However, this is not the case. You can get someone who can forward your resume to HR but HR will still be HR and not even consider you because you don't have a top SAT score, 4.0 gpa, etc. It is what it is. Its really about busting your ass and getting lucky.
.
I did read your entire post. I did not attack BTBanker so I'm not sure where you came up with that. As for whartonbetch, she deserves it. I've seen a number of her threads and the wreak of stupidity and not knowing anything about anything.
As for your post, it is way to long to answer everything. I will say that you are incredibly wrong about the wharton shit. No, if you have a 4.0 you will probably not have a good chance at getting an interview at Goldman. I don't know what your experiences are but I'm not talking from my ass. I got to a top target for wall street and like I previously said, know plenty of people who have 4.0 and did not get ANYTHING. Not even an INTERVIEW at all. It's harder than you think.
As for your centerview remark, that can go either way. They have good placement and if you want to get to a megafund or a HF, people will know Centerview and it will help you.
As for your post history, I use it to see who I am debating with. If I can call bull shit on things, I will. And you know what, it is perfectly valid. From yours I can see that you have an obsession with megafunds. Like I said, I don't know what you do or who you are but I do know that anyone who yanks it to megafunds will probably not ever get to one.
The people that end up there can figure stuff out on their own and don't need a message board. They would also realize that the arguments I posed are accurate and I am saying all of this to educate people and make them stop looking like fucking assholes to their peers and interviewers.
I can recall numerous interviews where I've shot the shit with the interviewer on how delusional some kids are and how ridiculous most are.
not offended at all. if a lot of my posts are "stupid" i sincerely apologize, but isnt that why people create accounts? to ask questions that other people can answer? derp
Getting an interview is not like getting into an Ivy because of how effective networking is. You can't network with admissions (well, generally).
Did you have a hard day at work? I think you need to chill bro..
Great post. I admire the OP so much that I will pay for his anger management classes. (Seriously though, all heed the advice)
Agree very much with boutiques statement. Maybe I'm just saying this because I will (most likely) never work for a BB and boutiques are looking slim for me at the moment, however the deal flow (or perceived) and working closer with sr mgmt is more appealing to me.
LOL @ Will Hunting editing all his old threads asking about schools. Wow.
Are people not allowed to learn from experience. Maybe the OP used to be the type he is describing in this thread, and has since learned from his experience.
Idiot!
While I don't disagree with this post, I will say that in a contracting industry you need the best of all fronts: EQ, IQ, networking, undergrad / grad, GPA, resume, suit / tie etc. Feel free to disagree, just an observation from my classmates who are graduating, job searching, etc. In a pile of 200 resumes, how will you distinguish yourself from a H/S/W/P/Y etc 4.0 grad? Need to find ways to de-risk yourself in your employers' eyes. Do that and you are golden.
Regards.
The fact that the OP sounds like a whiny bitch detracts a bit from the fact that the content and advice is generally spot on although I would never have turned down a top 5 BB for any boutique.
haha I don't think I was whining, or at least, that wasn't my intention. And I think you're referring to my point on Qatalyst?
Spot on. It's insane how time flies. I'd completely forgotten until now that I first came across "ibankingoasis" while perusing collegeconfidential.
Do you remember that obnoxious mom who used to boast about her kids in Dartmouth and Brown, and tell poorer kids how they'd never get into any elite school. She used to spew BS about IB careers as well, and someone mentioned WSO, and that is how I discovered this great site.
Trying to remember what her ID was. Happymomof4 or something.
I know exactly who you're talking about. Awful. And there were so many others.
-1 didn't include anything on WSO search function -1 lol Lazard, depends on how much "most" is... -0.5 borderline tool language in a few parts
otherwise good. 7.5/10 ;))
I agree with the main sentiment of the thread, but shit like school, GPA, internships, etc. most definitely matter when it comes to getting the interview. Of course no one can tell you with 100% confidence whether or not you'll get an interview, but it's possible to give a general idea what to expect, especially if the candidate is shitty. Obviously networking can make up for anything.
Chill the fuck out.
Also as a side note, 4.0 HS GPA + top SAT scores + president of multiple clubs will get you into most semi-targets, but nowadays it's def not enough to guarantee admission to any Target schools.
Yeah, Alex and Jonathan Blankfeins would have no chance without their resume writing skills...
This is the most idiotic response I have ever fucking seen. Wow.
More idiotic than your post? How could that be?
You just dropped the "people's elbow" on them kids dude.
I would say at Harvard or Wharton a 4.0 will get an interview. Esp. at Harvard/Yale/Princeton where they're looking to convert non finance types.
At a Cornell or NYU this thread is very true.
Just as a note to the younger members here, I went on a networking trip a couple weeks ago with my banking club, and we visited both BBs and boutiques. While I met a lot of cool people at BBs, and they had great experience, they didn't enjoy banking all that much. They constantly talked about ending the two year grind.
We also visited a couple elite boutiques, and everyone there had a totally different attitude. yeah they were tired, but they were passionate about what they did, worked better hours, and earned pretty much the same (if not more).
Good post. The importance of networking is immeasurable. I mean shit, even if you do manage to get an interview without networking, the guy that knows someone there is going to have a leg up on you. Unless you are the Most Interesting Man in the World.
And to comment on the BBs not the best places to work. I've been meeting with several middle market and boutiques the past few weeks and a lot of the guys there were at the BBs. They left because they are sweat shops and said the prefer the place they're at because of the firm's enjoyable work place. They have solid deal flow, and with that solid deal flow they get bank because there is less people that get a piece of the pie.
O and most MM and boutiques aren't sweatshops??
WILL MAD WILL SMASH ARGGHH!!!! I JUST FINISHED BANKING RECRUITING NOW I KNOW HOW STUPID I WAS!!!!!!!
How so?
?? This is my Will Hunting impression
One thing I see often posted on WSO is endless mental masturbation about how to break into finance without any actual substance. It has been discussed endlessly, but it's fun apparently to keep asking about how to break into finance while not actually doing much IRL. This is similar to college confidential "chance" threads which are completely retarded. Also the entire non target chip on the shoulder thing gets extremely old, though most employers don't give a chit about what school you go to as long as you seem like a good candidate. Most people on WSO are middle class white/asian males looking to get into a career that can make one a millionaire or top 1%er. Lets put things into perspective there are worse things than not breaking into IB, like poverty, being stigmatized as a minority or lgbt or not being able to even afford to go to college. Most people on here can break into IB through a masters program anyway (or end up at a boutique) and should stfu with the complaining about not making it to BB M&A from undergrad. However, I will admit that college confidential is the worst site on the internet and wso is 10000000000000000xxxxxx more substantive and helpful and so that comparison is a bit harsh.
Love it
Interesting post and I think you've made a point that is not made often enough:
What others have pointed out correctly - an aspect of the industry that is overwhelmingly underappreciated for it's impact - is that global finance is contracting. From where I'm sitting, this is not a trend that's likely to stop in the near future. So, unlike a decade ago where future graduates were competing against other future graduates, now they're competing against future graduates and former BB/boutique employees with experience and contacts who got laid off by no fault of their own.
In short, while I think this is good advice:
Oftentimes, that won't be enough without a heavy dose of persistence.
Just my $0.02.
+1
While I agree with the general idea...BB names really do matter and have better exit ops to larger hedgefunds/PE firms. I'm afraid it matters much more than you make it out to be. And FYI those elites you mentioned are arguably harder to get into vs BB programs as well.
But back to the point, yes, networking is the god damn key.
BB names are important, but hopefully people understand that BB isn't the only group of banks with a good name. I'd interview an Evercore/GHL guy before any BB guy outside of the elite groups at certain banks, and in lots of circumstances I'd imagine the HLHZ guy gets more attention than someone in a lower BB like a Citi.
Can you explain why some banks get called "lower" BBs? It's something I really don't get, yet it's applied to various firms. Maybe with the exception of UBS who seem to be the bottom of the pack, all the firms except GS/MS/JPM seem to do pretty much the same. Is it just observed prestige that separates the bunch? I especially don't get it when firms like Citi and Barclays seem to have done quite well this year across a number of products.
And maybe it's just my own experience, but in London nobody seems as bothered about boutiques like Evercore or Greenhill (few class-mates turned them down for non-GS/MS BBs), is that accurate?
BH, we'll be in touch.
Didn't get the chance to read responses, but you're right in that these kids put way too much stock in GPA and school name rather than intangibles like networking, writing and interview skills.
I actually do agree with you about elite boutiques giving you as strong of an experience (and would rather work at a top boutique than the bulge brackets), but I've talked to numerous alumni and there seem to be a couple things that the BB's do have going for them that the top boutiques can't give you. 1. BB's have usually more brand name internationally and also have more layman's recognition, which would be a + for you if you ever decide to leave finance. 2. BB's have a larger analyst class, which in turn would give you a wider network in finance over the years. 3. You get to work on a wider variety of deals vs. mostly M&A and restructuring at boutiques.
OP is a bit too radical. The difference between college apps and banking interviews is that in the former GPA, ECs, pedigree etc are requirements, while in the latter they are a plus.
This thread is so good it scared people off WSO. (down by about 500 in the last 3 days.) That or Morgan Stanley.
What's with all this HLHZ stroking?
It's a top bank.
The supposed underrating of MM Investment banks was really not worth a tantrum. If someone above you at work is being an asshole I'm sorry, but don't take it out on college students. Or at least be a dick in person like your Associate/VP was instead of some internet bad ass.
You mad?
kudos. well said.
This is contrary to my experience. Granted, I came out of college in 2005, so things could have changed in the intervening years.
If you were at a target, had a GPA >=3.5, had good extra-curriculars, good test scores (and test scores did matter), and a few "finance" related internships or "jobs" on your resume you would have a pretty solid chance of getting selected for first round (on-campus) recruiting. Of course, networking helps, but I'd say it was more icing on the cake (the cake being your school, GPA, internships, test scores, etc.)
Pre-2008, this was 100% false. A BB experience was far superior to a boutique experience and the exit ops for a BB analyst were infinitely better. Things are a little more wide open now, but I would say BB banks are still better as a general rule, with the exception of Moelis and a couple other boutiques (I certainly would NOT include HLHZ, Stifel, Cowen, Raymond James, etc. in that list). As a related aside, I think the entire industry has lost a lot of its swagger, but if we are trying to pick the best of a dejected bunch, I think BBs are still the choice.
This is nonsense. They are just trying to delude themselves as much as they are you. They work the same hours at boutiques and put up with the same bullshit. The difference is at a boutique the deals are smaller and more likely than not, your life will solely consist of sellside mandates.
Great post. A few clarifications: I don't put those Cowen/Stifel etc in the same category I am just saying they are very good banks and should not be looked down upon. Someone shouldn't be BB or bust even if they have good grades/school etc because it is still a crap shoot.
That's all I'm saying. I never meant that grades/school don't matter. They do, but they do not == a good job or interviews. All I'm saying is don't be surprised if you have a 3.75 from an ivy with a finance internship and end up at a MM firm or a boutique.
Spot on Will Hunting.... I totally agree. I'd work at a reputable MM or boutique shop over a BB right now. Base pay is comparable, bonuses generally paid 100% cash with no installment payments or clawbacks, most are privately owned so out of the public and govt microscope, people/culture is better, work-life balance is better, and I'd even go as far to say that office amenities are better. I've heard of Associates getting offices during their first year. Don't think that's going to happen at a typical BB sweatshop.
Times are changing indeed....
Excellent post Will. If these youngins spent as much time on the phone calling alums/banks/knocking down doors as they do asking randos whether they're good enough for BB/MBB/IB/HJ/ZJ/BBBJ/OWO/CIM, they'd be much better off. Was from a non-target myself and landed at one of the 'good' firms Will mentioned out of UG but I had to call every alum we had in banking and fly to NYC on my own dime and make a few hundred phone calls/meetings/emails to make that a possibility.
OP I think at the end of all this you should leave it all behind and follow Skylar to California.
You're absolutely correct.
Just would like to say hey hey to all my Princeton Alumni class of 2012!
only 5 more posts till 4000 :O
The primary difference between a bulge bracket investment banking experience, as an analyst, and a boutique investment banking experience is working with various products, most notably leveraged debt products and equity and equity-linked products. This may sound like a overly simple difference, but I would argue that coming out of banking without experience in anything besides M&A leaves you without as strong of a foundation.
Sure, sell-side M&A is great and you do get to learn a lot about a company by selling them (writing the teaser, CIM, interacting with management, reaching out to buyers, etc.). However, by only focusing on this product, you lose out on learning about the more markets-related products that ultimately giving you a more complete investment banking experience.
On the debt side, I have learned more about investment banking and a particular company by going through a credit process, in which we had to put together an internal memorandum (standard in the industry) to make our credit officer comfortable with the idea of the bank extending a term loan or bookrunning senior notes. Helping companies evaluate their capital structure, I would argue, is a crucial part of the investment banking experience. Knowing what the market can get done right now (whether L+375 or L+400 for a 1L term loan B or 8.0% or 8.25% for senior notes on a LBO) is a great skill to have. Knowing whether a 1L/2L term loan or a bank/bond structure makes the most sense is also important, especially in PE recruiting (if you decide to go that route). Essentially, a BB analyst should be able to talk to these products at a high level.
On the equity side, I am on a IPO process and in no other situation do you learn more about a company than you do by attending drafting sessions when your bank is bookrunning an IPO. You have direct access to management and have to put together materials that investors will rely on in the roadshow process. The products themselves are interesting and definitely contribute to an analyst's understanding of how companies operate and what makes sense for them given their share performance and the market. Does a convert-funded share repurchase make sense for a company whose stock is depressed? Should a company do a follow-on offering before the lockup and after their first earnings release?
Ultimately, I have an enormous amount of respect for anyone that does my job. Frankly, it's a pretty shitty way to live for two years after college ("soul-crushing" is an accurate way to put it). That being said, I think a bulge bracket investment banking experience, at the very least, gives you a greater knowledge base of the financial markets and how companies think about their financing needs.
“Finance is about relationships and people skills.” -So true! I strongly agree with that from my own internship experience with a wealth management company.
Also I can understand why people want a BB offer, they are always a part of a renowned organization since they were 6, they just cannot afford the comment from peers:"Oh what is that I never heard about it"
Thanks for the posting, I love Lazard also:)
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