Breaking into DACH IBD
Hello gentlemen,
I would like to find out a bit more about breaking into investment banking in Frankfurt & Zurich. I have read probably all WSO discussions related to DACH IBD scene, so I have a rough idea of how the selection process works there (technical interviews, fluent German etc.). It seems however that some people have been able to break into DACH IBD without speaking any German whatsoever. Can someone elaborate a bit more on the language situation there? Does speaking other Central/Eastern European languages help in the case of Frankfurt? As for Zurich, it seems Swiss German as well as having some deeper relation to the country would be quite beneficial. What are your thoughts/tips gentlemen (apart from substantially improving my German)? I would also be interested in how the UK-target schools are perceived in the region.
Background:
Central/Eastern European (EU citizen)
1st year LSE student (maths)
German A2/B1 (working on it)
I appreciate your 0.02$!
Interested as well
I’m also interested. If anyone has made the switch from the US to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, or Luxembourg I’d love to hear your experience. I just started at a MM and hoping to eventually end up in Europe.
At least for Switzerland, forget it without native-level German. Some places "accept" French/Italian speakers although to a much lesser extent.
UK Target schools are on par with other, local target Unis (HSG/UZH for Switzerland for example).
Your German would have to be massively better i.e. C1/C2. Easier to achieve for females in Frankfurt though!
Switzerland has really few positions and it rarely gives those to foreigners. Even Germans and Austrians with stellar academics, experience and connection to Switzerland have troubles landing a gig in Switzerland (only IB, not refering to sales or trading or other positions).
There is enough qualified personell in Germany that also speak German. Why should they employ non-germans who cannot speak German. The only reason to recruit non-germans is, if you have a real USP which is quite hard to get as a typical Investment Banker. But I think that your chances are good with a math major from LSE.
I broke into BB in NYC through Frankfurt and Zürich (NYC recruitment pool was full early that year and I was placed through their DE branch).
Good schools for D/A/CH are the known suspects Mannheim, Beisheim, St. Gallen, etc (the target EU schools are also fine, of course)
Frankfurt is a more interesting (and larger place) than other cities in Germany, but it lacks the charm of Munich or Hamburg IMO. Personally I found Zürich more interesting because of easier access to Italy, France,.. also prefer CH girls to German ones.
Technically, you can be in IBD and not be fluent in German, but they'll encourage you to learn the language anyway because it is useful to have. the interpersonal network develops better if you are very fluent in the local language, that goes without saying for any employment market.
Far more relevant is that German culture, work culture and the way things are done are not comparable to London or NYC. The culture is more similar to CH, but not the same (Swiss culture and German culture is not the same). Business is done differently in both locations and that will be the biggest challenge for someone who has adapted to a different way. This is less of a problem when you are young or very flexible.
I have two family members who went to LSE (in different years) and found really good jobs in Germany. One guy works at the Deutsche Börse and the other guy is at a fund. Both are in their 20s or early 30s and competition is lower outside of larger cities (yes, but there are also fewer jobs).
One of the challenges going forward would be Brexit and more applicants outside of London, potentially. But I wouldn't worry about it too much, honestly. If you are good, you will be placed.
Germany as a country is a good place. It is safe, clean, organized, structured, efficient, and you have the full legal framework in case something goes wrong.
Lastly, what Germany is not known for:
Whether you can make it at the workplace is highly depending on the area/skill set etc, it is correct to assume that the "regular management job" will go to the "regular German person". It may be reasoned through culture or language, but again, specialize in a high demand field and you should be fine.
sources
(25% of German residents are actually from abroad, but you'd never see it if you walk through a high street)
source https://de.statista.com/themen/27/bevoelkerung/
Splendid post! Would you be willing to share the intricacies of your journey across the Atlantic? I know its relatively common to make the transfer from London, but I would be very interested in how to approach this from the continental Europe. Thank for your time!
Grew up both in EU and the US. Wasn't sure what to do in life and also didn't have any internships. So I applied away and couldn't break into finance in NYC, of course. They liked me enough though to place me in Frankfurt and then London (rotation scheme) because they had spots open there (and not enough people applied in FfM).
Worked through various IB, consulting type and PE/VC jobs and ended up in a global PE. We had decent travel pre-Covid, that's gone for now.
What a great comment ! Would you know if there are any struct differences between recruiting in IB vs Sales/Trading in CH ?
I never worked in S&T, so I wouldn't know. But recruiting was the same for ME since I applied in the US and not EU. I was just placed in another market.
so do you think a B2 level Germans will be ok when fighting for IBD in Frankfurt?
At GS, the office language is English. But at HL and MS, they speak German on the floor. So it really depends on the bank whether B2 is sufficient.
I think it might be enough to break into IB, but you should have a plan forward to become more fluent. B2 isn't really fluent enough to hold a complex business meeting around IB or any management role.
B2 might be enough to get a start in Germany. With many native German speakers around you, some German friends, potentially a German partner (native in German) - you might be able to learn it quicker.
Here is a tip:
Go to the various DAX listed companies and read their reports (financial, management reports, ..) or even just the FT in Germany. Do you understand most of it without googling every other word? If not, your competition will understand this and will also be able to create complex documents that are at this level.
Now, I am not saying you have to be native or similar in fluency to work in any job in Germany. But the more fluent, the more opportunities.
I think the salary is quite low FYI
Average salaries are lower, but the gov services are better as well. If an expat would spend a decent amount of time in the country, they'd also use it.
If one only pays the taxed and leaves, might not be enough. But if you start planning for a family and need the huge amount of help and services with that... it is nicer than in other places.
Germany is on the lower side due to taxes, but Zurich, from what I have heard, with their relatively low taxes and high base salary is there right after NY in analyst compensation. Of course the CoL is steep and it will eventually add up…
If you look at nominal values your statement is correct. But in terms of purchase power this could not be more far away from the truth. In Switzerland everything is much more expensive than in Germany. You could factor the utilities and rent times 2 with German prices (not an exaggeration) to get the prices in Switzerland. Clubs even 2-3 times more expensive (drinks and entry). This also holds in comparison with London.
Salary might be lower but costs for utilities are substantially lower than in other cities. If you look at what you pocket in terms of purchase parity you probably earn the most in Frankfurt. BB and EB pay 90 - 120k all in for 1st year analyst. Although this is lower than NYC or Zurich, rent and essentials are cheaper so that one can save much more than in other cities.
Just to add to the CoL discussion, I grew up in the US, DE and CH.
CH is miles away when it comes to CoL. regardless of your salary or taxes, anyone moving there will be shocked how expensive everything is. If take-home pay or saving money is the objective, I'd seriously think twice before moving to Switzerland.
Also, places like Zürich don't have the "cheap working class neighborhoods" like other cities, at least not at the price points you'd expect from London or New York. I know a few bankers who have no problem living in a cheaper place in Essex and commute to Canary Wharf. They lose a few minutes on the train, but overall save a bundle each month they can use for a new car or save up for a bigger house. This won't really work in Switzerland like that.
The quality of life is much better in CH, IMO, but you'll pay for it.
CoL is higher in Switzerland but taxes are lower (especially if you commute from Zug to ZH), you can save some decent money living alone there.
Don't know much about Zurich but I can tell you that there are several opportunities in Frankfurt for non-german speakers if you are not set on M&A or PE. It's definitely possible to work in leveraged finance and structured finance and recently even GS opened some positions for French and Italian speakers in the Frankfurt office (I don't know if capital markets, M&A or else). I also know an intern in Zurich at CS in the structured financing & sponsor coverage team who doesn't speak any german
I have experience working in a BB in Germany and yes you can work there without being fluent in German as I met quite some of them. But keep one thing in mind, there are many German-speakers and you will compete with them. You need to show some interest or reason for working in Germany. If you don't know German, then I would question your motivation
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