Burn your past

How many years of employment does it take until people don't really care what you did in college? How many promotions does it take? Aside from earning the company $100MM or some ridiculous number, when do your actions start to speak louder than a damn piece of paper?

I ask because after being a lifetime straight A+ student, athlete, and member of clubs/organizations, I wasn't focused on school AT ALL during college for a lot of personal reasons (not worth going into here, I can sell that already). After working for a couple of years, I'm embarassed about the fact that I could have done so much better. Sometimes I hear "how the fuck did you do any of this with your credentials?" or "after some experience, no one cares about college except that you went." Despite 'conventional wisdom', there's a LOT of people who suck at life for a period of time and then get back on track.

At what point does work performance/experience/knowledge/progression begin outweigh school pedigree/major/GPA? When do people just not care that much where you came from and only look at what you've done recently....and where you want to go? How do I bury the past on this very specific issue?

 

very interested in this, in an identical situation. If I hear another well your degree mark is holding you back i'll fucking scream.

on a note to the op though, going about doing your own thing is probably the best thing you could do. Find some friends and club together some ideas and a $ pool and just do it. That says more on your CV than anything.

 
trazer985:
If I hear another well your degree mark is holding you back i'll fucking scream.
Degree is preventing you from getting a job, lateral transfer, promotion, or bschool acceptance?
Get busy living
 

Honestly, i think it stops once you can get to a VP level. Even at an Associate level it still matters. I was/am getting crap for not having a stellar undergrad/grad background. I've missed promotions beyond Associate level because of the pedigree. I think once you break through that barrier, then you're good to go. Until then, you just need someone to look past it and recognize how much value add you bring to the table. Doesn't always matter if you can run circles around superiors because, depending on your industry, clients care where people went to school. I think GPA is irrelevant after a couple years, but name isn't until the exec range.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 
Something Creative:
I think GPA is irrelevant after a couple years, but name isn't until the exec range.
Ok, so basically just go MBA. It's not worth the effort to try and rise through the ranks on those terms? By the time I finish an MBA, it will have been 6 to 8 years since coming out of undergrad....at that point, do people frankly give a shit about college at that point?

The plan is: * Shit college credentials * 4/5 years decent work experience * MBA * ???

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
The plan is: * Shit college credentials * 4/5 years decent work experience * MBA * ??? * Profit

Fixed that for you.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
UFOinsider:
Something Creative:
I think GPA is irrelevant after a couple years, but name isn't until the exec range.
Ok, so basically just go MBA. It's not worth the effort to try and rise through the ranks on those terms? By the time I finish an MBA, it will have been 6 to 8 years since coming out of undergrad....at that point, do people frankly give a shit about college at that point?

The plan is: * Shit college credentials * 4/5 years decent work experience * MBA * ???

The MBA route would make undergrad obsolete, regardless of how long it's been IMO, and they wouldn't give a crap about where you went to undergrad.

I don't know if it's worth the effort or not as it's really an individual thing. I've seen people from weaker backgrounds make it ok up the ladder to exec level, but not often without having made a serious achievement or having gone for an MBA.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 
UFOinsider:
Something Creative:
I think GPA is irrelevant after a couple years, but name isn't until the exec range.
Ok, so basically just go MBA. It's not worth the effort to try and rise through the ranks on those terms? By the time I finish an MBA, it will have been 6 to 8 years since coming out of undergrad....at that point, do people frankly give a shit about college at that point?

The plan is: * Shit college credentials * 4/5 years decent work experience * MBA * ???

  • Shit college credentials
  • 4/5 years decent work experience
  • MBA
  • ??? =PROFIT

Corrected it for ya ;)

 
Something Creative:
Honestly, i think it stops once you can get to a VP level. Even at an Associate level it still matters. I was/am getting crap for not having a stellar undergrad/grad background. I've missed promotions beyond Associate level because of the pedigree. I think once you break through that barrier, then you're good to go. Until then, you just need someone to look past it and recognize how much value add you bring to the table. Doesn't always matter if you can run circles around superiors because, depending on your industry, clients care where people went to school. I think GPA is irrelevant after a couple years, but name isn't until the exec range.

I agree with this. GPA is irrelevant very quickly but in money management business, whether that's HF, PE, etc., the namebrand matters for a long time.

 
shorttheworld:
most of my interviews ive had for b school have easily brushed my GPA issue aside -- granted ive done things to mitigate and counter it as well -- but for the schools i dont get in it might have been a barrier :)

but i agree on the masters

Is MBA recruiting affected by what happened in college? I'm interested in AM/ER/IBD
Get busy living
 
shorttheworld:
most of my interviews ive had for b school have easily brushed my GPA issue aside -- granted ive done things to mitigate and counter it as well -- but for the schools i dont get in it might have been a barrier :)

but i agree on the masters

What sorts of things besides great work experience and a high GMAT do admissions people look favorably on that might help to offset some of the negatives of having a low undergraduate GPA? I know you're just supposed to do something you're passionate about when it comes to extra curricular activities, but I'm curious what are some examples of things that have worked well for people or that grad schools tend to favor more than other activities.

 
numnum:
shorttheworld:
most of my interviews ive had for b school have easily brushed my GPA issue aside -- granted ive done things to mitigate and counter it as well -- but for the schools i dont get in it might have been a barrier :)

but i agree on the masters

What sorts of things besides great work experience and a high GMAT do admissions people look favorably on that might help to offset some of the negatives of having a low undergraduate GPA? I know you're just supposed to do something you're passionate about when it comes to extra curricular activities, but I'm curious what are some examples of things that have worked well for people or that grad schools tend to favor more than other activities.

Browse your targeted school's website and look at the profile of the students. That will give you an idea of what set them apart.

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 
ke18sb:
I think it depends on the person. Some people will always judge you not matter what you have done post school. Other people don't give a shit as long as you produce.

I think this is pretty much the answer. Some people won't care after a few year's work experience, for others this will be a dealbreaker no matter what. Just depends on the person and their background.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.
 
IRSPB:
2.5 GPA. 2 years of workex. Laid off 8 months ago and doing unpaid work right now. Interviewed at one of Ross/Darden/Duke. If I can do it so can you (as far as getting an interview goes). I think you don't need 4-5 years of experience to get into b-school. Point is past doesn't matter if you can explain it away.
PM'd you

Also: is there a point where I can stop justifying my fucking existance? I'm so fucking over it.

Get busy living
 

James: you're an immigrant from a 3rd world country, a URM, have perfect grades, and love the opportunity that America is. Colleges, especially ivies, LOVE your kind: just tell them your life story (condensed of course). Also, go for a jog or something before interviews, you're an extremely high energy person and it comes across as jittery compared to the half asleep typical American.

And be positive. You represent the most accomplished segment of your home area. You've made it to America, now just be confident moving forward.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
James: you're an immigrant from a 3rd world country, a URM, have perfect grades, and love the opportunity that America is. Colleges, especially ivies, LOVE your kind: just tell them your life story (condensed of course). Also, go for a jog or something before interviews, you're an extremely high energy person and it comes across as jittery compared to the half asleep typical American.

And be positive. You represent the most accomplished segment of your home area. You've made it to America, now just be confident moving forward.

Yeah, I do come across as jittery. I need to work on staying calm. Colleges don't offer interviews in the case of transfer admissions.

 

If you think it's rough with shitty college creds, imagine going through it with no college at all. I had to work for free for most of my professional life and get paid 100% commission or on my P&L. You'd be amazed at how hesitant some people still are to hire you even though you can't cost them a penny and they'll only pay you if you make them money.

The flip side to that is that if you survive to my age and you rack up a CV like mine, you can look at HR and say, "Fuck you. I don't try out."

 
Edmundo Braverman:
imagine going through it with no college at all.
I give you a lot of credit, but at this point, even secretaries here have college degrees. I don't care why/how the world became like it is, I just need to get through the damn gatekeepers. How on EARTH did you manage to convince people to give you a shot?
Get busy living
 

If you are a standout performer at whatever company that you go to, it won't affect your ability to move up. The issue comes when you want to move to a new company that doesn't have as much insight into your on-job performance, and they have to go by whatever quantifiables that they can find, including GPA.

 
TechBanking:
If you are a standout performer at whatever company that you go to, it won't affect your ability to move up. The issue comes when you want to move to a new company that doesn't have as much insight into your on-job performance, and they have to go by whatever quantifiables that they can find, including GPA.

I disagree on moving up at your firm. It really does depend on the company. Some really care about your background depending on your industry. IB may be different, but in AM world, it really matters. They need to sell themselves to institutional investors and most want to see the top tier schools managing their funds. As dumb as it is, Duke will always trump Florida International for a client unless you have a proven track record. No disrespect to FIU as I simply picked a name out of the air.

I had a VP hiring manager at my last firm tell me to my face that I would never make PM there due to my background. Literally, said it just like that, and I went to a top 25 state school. They told me to look at the bios of the PMs and what their backgrounds were.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 
Best Response
Something Creative:
TechBanking:
If you are a standout performer at whatever company that you go to, it won't affect your ability to move up. The issue comes when you want to move to a new company that doesn't have as much insight into your on-job performance, and they have to go by whatever quantifiables that they can find, including GPA.

I disagree on moving up at your firm. It really does depend on the company. Some really care about your background depending on your industry. IB may be different, but in AM world, it really matters. They need to sell themselves to institutional investors and most want to see the top tier schools managing their funds. As dumb as it is, Duke will always trump Florida International for a client unless you have a proven track record. No disrespect to FIU as I simply picked a name out of the air.

I had a VP hiring manager at my last firm tell me to my face that I would never make PM there due to my background. Literally, said it just like that, and I went to a top 25 state school. They told me to look at the bios of the PMs and what their backgrounds were.

This is very true. The first place I worked out of college was staffed with all Ivy League pricks and they shit all over my resume constantly (top 10 state school). I'm not even sure why they hired me if they were just going to shit on me. Anyway, I got some experience, left for a hedge fund, and now have a higher position than any of them at a younger age. My ex boss went to HBS and just got fired from the firm and I currently have the same job he had, for more money, at a better firm. People can suck an egg if they think all that matters is where you went to school. My old firm was shit anyway. Forget 'em.

 
Something Creative:
unless you have a proven track record.

This is what I was talking about. After you get your foot in the door - just build a track record and out perform everyone else around you. I went to state school and as an analyst worked with exclusively H/Y/P analysts and HBS/Wharton MBAs as associates. I was the top performer and no one cared where I went to school. There are some pricks out there that would bring this up, but if you are clearly better, people will usually not care where you went to school in the long run.

I don't know much about AM (and it probably depends where you are in AM), but I'm guessing that if your investment ideas are outperforming both the broader market and your peers that will mean a lot more to clients than where you went to school.

 

This is for Short and UFO:

With a terrible H.S record and a SAT score, I have managed to maintain a perfect GPA in my 3 semesters of college. I am trying to transfer to better colleges, and the most important factor will be how I write my "Why do you want to transfer to XYZ college?" question. Especially Short, how do you think I should address my H.S record in my essays and what kind of reasons should I give for wanting to transfer?

 

say you lived in a hut in a third world fucking country and were distracted.. im sure itll work when you compare it to your 4.0 now

put in the same kind of enthusiasm you had about winning tthe opportunity to come to the US and having a chance to live a better life in your writing and youll do well, say you want to go to xyz school because you are interested in xyz industry which recruits at your target school and to take advantage of better extracurricular offerings in xyz. send me your xfer essay i can help u edit it

but honestly the most iomportant thing is not for OTHERS to get over your past, but for you to get over your past and make the moves. in my interviews when its been brought up, ive made sure that i explained my background prior and they always brushed it aside esp with everything ive done since... so my attitude is most ly 'yeah, so what? look what else ive done since'

 
shorttheworld:
for you to get over your past and make the moves.
LOL, yes, this is the hardest thing to do. I talk to people that don't know anything about me and they'll think "ok, this guy seems like he's doing ok". But in my head, I'm the dude that just fucked everything up.
go.with.the.flow:
It seems you are stuck on the thought of acing college. Get over it, its just your ego. No piece of paper can justify your self worth.
I just went for a walk after reading this ten times in a row. This does make sense.
Get busy living
 

Had a discussion today with my boss, at an internship. It got all personal and without going into detail he basically said: the problems you had in the past don't matter, don't let them influence you in your day-to-day activities in the present and PERFORM.

That's easier said than done since the past has an influence on current behaviors. It makes it even more difficult when the problems in your past still (partially) exist.

 

UFO, I feel your pain.

You will not be able to move on with your life if you keep looking at your past mistakes. Your concerns will freeze you in the past and you will miss lots of opportunities.

When I talk to my mom about getting over a past mistake, she said that what happened has been done. Now I should not worry about what people think or what I could have done. Look toward the future and turn every opportunities into a possibility. People will judge you no matter what, but remember that if you fucked it off again, they will not give you a hand. So instead of focusing on what these people think, focus on what you can do in the present and the future to outshine your past.

As some posters have suggested, get into a good master program. Perform well, get some fellowships and shit
then the rest won't matter. We are humans. We fail, we stumble , but what matters is that we learn from our mistakes and move on. If you still meet people who are giving you shit for your undergrad, get out of their way. You proved yourself at work, you proved yourself with a Masters, what else do they want? What else could you do? It is no longer about you or your mistake. It's them. Stay away from jerks who wants to bring your spirit down.

Move on and do it well this time.

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 

As someone with a subpar undergrad GPA, I can relate. It was a an obstacle when I was looking for jobs straight out of undergrad, no doubt about that. I addressed it with some clever networking and essentially training myself in preperation for the jobs I was interviewing for. Basically, I found a good mentor through my college network and the guy told me exactly what to know/expect in interviews and how to do the jobs I was targeting. Its rare in my industry (real estate investing) to find an entry-level candidate that can produce meaningful work with minimal training, and this was enough to overcome a weak GPA.

That was quite some time ago and my GPA is still holding me back. I know it cost me a job at a couple of great groups recently. Sometimes my track record alone isnt enough, but I figure that I dont want to work at a place that cant get over it. And I like where I work right now, the Ivy league dudes in my firm arent judgemental.

Man made money, money never made the man
 
RE Capital Markets:
I have a question for folks who are involved in recruiting - could a high GMAT (or LSAT) score (700/170+ clearly stated on resume) offset a low GPA for an experienced (2-5 yrs) candidate?

Since I have a very high LSAT, I asked the same question to dozens of people. They all told me not to include it since it is very out of the way, and unrelated to finance. But GMATs are good to go.

Full Disclosure: I'm in charge of SA and Analyst hires, not Associates.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.
 
RE Capital Markets:
I have a question for folks who are involved in recruiting - could a high GMAT (or LSAT) score (700/170+ clearly stated on resume) offset a low GPA for an experienced (2-5 yrs) candidate?

Anybody else want to take a crack at my question?

Man made money, money never made the man
 
RE Capital Markets:
RE Capital Markets:
I have a question for folks who are involved in recruiting - could a high GMAT (or LSAT) score (700/170+ clearly stated on resume) offset a low GPA for an experienced (2-5 yrs) candidate?

Anybody else want to take a crack at my question?

In a way. it would show that you're not stupid, but would indicate that the reason for your low grades were the result of being lazy and unmotivated (even if it's not the case, it's the easiest assumption to make for most).

It really just depends on what the person see's as the real issue with a low GPA. I have interviewed a lot of people, and I can honestly say that I don't care about GPA in the slightest. If you're entry level, then I wouldn't have seen you anyway since we were taking on experienced people only, so it wouldn't have been used as a weed out for me (although HR might use it to weed out people as I'm sure we got a lot more resumes for an opening than the 50 they would give us to narrow down). I cared a lot more about work experience than GPA.

I had a 3.4 and worked 70 hrs a week during UG running my own business, so I know that a low GPA can be due to variety of reasons and not just the assumption that you're dumb or lazy.

Honestly though, if you're experienced (2-5yrs), then don't even put it on there unless they require it. IF someone asks you during the interview process you can tell them what it is and also explain the reason for it. That's just my opinion though. I know some people that say you "HAVE" to put it on there. I don't cause I firmly believe it's irrelevant at this point.

Hope that helps and makes some sense.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 

Pre-MBA resume for general recruiting, not MBA apps.

Basically, you're a recuriter and you recieve a resume with a low GPA and 700+ GMAT. Would you chuck it anyway? Also, assume the candidate's experience is in-line with your expectations.

Man made money, money never made the man
 

I agree with Something Creative, Eddie B. and Revenous,

You need to perform well and stop it being an issue for you (it shouldn't be a chip on your shoulder)... at the same time, it might be worth it to get a good credential soon (don't wait 5 years) in order to make it easier to get access to more lucrative roles in the corporate / financial world. Think of it simply as a branding tool (that's my approach to my b-school/masters decision).

Ultimately, top school branding or not, you have to perform well and have a solid network of people know about it.

 

No one cares, until you try to do something different. Then you have to prove yourself again.

Goes for ugrad -> BB BB -> buyside buyside -> MBA and then the MBA prestige takes over, but doesn't rear its ugly head again until you try to make the move from VP -> Director/Principal/Partner, or Buyside firm -> Starting your own HF (matters a lot here!! Institutional backers like pedigree)

 

Just lost a PE offer during background check / refs / transcript portion of interview period because of low GPA transcript even after ~4 years WE.

I agree with whats been said about depends on person and add "depends on firm / industry." Some firms will have a few non target alma maters in their MD bios for flavor but in general, optics are bad if everyone did not come from HYPS land or very close. And if you are a non-target sprinkled in for flavor, you better start speaking latin when you talk about that degree...

bclan13
 

RE Capital Markets,

After a couple of years of experience I wouldn't put my GPA on my resume. That's just me though. I know not having a masters/school branding has cost me jobs at several top firms as well a potential director level post. This is less important than it was when I only had 0-4 years experience, but is still valid today as I try for VP level posts at top firms. I can relate.

There is marketing value to a good degree/programme when looking for jobs and when dealing with new clients (to some extent)... having said that, if you have a great idea / deal, you should be able to sell that on its own merits.

 
Relinquis:
RE Capital Markets,

After a couple of years of experience I wouldn't put my GPA on my resume. That's just me though. I know not having a masters/school branding has cost me jobs at several top firms as well a potential director level post. This is less important than it was when I only had 0-4 years experience, but is still valid today as I try for VP level posts at top firms. I can relate.

There is marketing value to a good degree/programme when looking for jobs and when dealing with new clients (to some extent)... having said that, if you have a great idea / deal, you should be able to sell that on its own merits.

I actually dont put my GPA on my resume, yet I still get asked. Mind you, this is usually late in the recruting process, and I get dinged pretty soon after. Fustrating.

Man made money, money never made the man
 
RE Capital Markets:
I actually dont put my GPA on my resume, yet I still get asked. Mind you, this is usually late in the recruting process, and I get dinged pretty soon after. Fustrating.
This is what I'm bracing myself for, and I know it's coming as I try to lateral out of here. Above poster is right that no one cares what GPA is until the breakpoints (promotion/lateral/MBA/partner). I get the impression that the most efficient option is to get an MBA and peace out.

Echo the sentiment above about chip on the shoulder, for a long time I thought "fuck you, you don't know me, you don't know what I can do, I'll show you" to everyone that wrote me off....and I did to an extent. But I'm really just trying to get back to a more constructive way of doing things like when I was younger. Ultimately, it's just talking to people, being smart, and working hard that fixed things, all this other stuff just clouded the issue.

Get busy living
 

bclan13, was the "background check / refs / transcript portion of interview period" after you had gotten a formal offer? Or did they conduct a background check before formally extending you one?

 

I have a great gpa at one school and a bad one (2.86) at another. I don't put either of them on my resume because I don't want to mislead anyone with the higher gpa nor get myself dinged right away because of the lower one. Not having my gpa's on my resume still gets me dinged. Got a boutique IB internship though.

 

It seems UFO and I are sort of polar opposites. I fucked around in High School, for various reasons. My Dad didn't go to college, so I wasn't encouraged to study (even though I'm Asian, lol). Subsequently, I got a 2.3 GPA in HS. As you would expect, I got into a dog-shit State University, and that too because of my very high SAT score. My Boutique IBD internship in my Freshman year was interesting. Every other kid was from a Target, and had never even heard of my school, lol. I decided to transfer out, but was forced to hear an ugly truth. Colleges want to see HS transcripts even for a transfer. It was pure hell, trying to reason my way out of a 2.3. But in the end, I managed to transfer to an Ivy. You hear a lot of bias against Ivy kids in this board, but (excluding a few assholes) they are pretty cool.

It's pretty surprising how long a single bad decision can haunt you.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.
 

To echo the sentiment above, I don't put GPA on my resume and haven't in awhile. I have around 6-7 years of experience though. My GPA isn't horrid, 3.4, but I figure my work exp should negate the relevance of it. Anyone asking for it is kinda dumb IMO since what I did in school really can't reflect what I bring to the table more so than what I've done professionally. That said, I still got told to my face I would never make PM at my top AM firm due to pedigree.

Funny thing is, in a recent lateral I interviewed for at a top firm, I downplayed my shitty school, and I think I got dinged for insinuating that I didn't know better at the time and only went b/c it was close to home. They didn't care where I went and I think they sensed my problem with it and went another way. I killed the other 5hrs+ of interviews too. The PM's from the group went to Booth, MIT, and the other no grad but varied UG. It's hit or miss I guess on who cares and who doesn't and is really firm specific based on the people who work there.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 

People have a hard time assessing performance in deal/team based environments.

You can have great ability to execute deals, manage the process, understand the investment thesis (killing bad deals) and making sure the the deals you do are structured well... only your close colleagues will be able to see this. Outside of your team people can't assess your performance, so they rely on proxies (no. of years, school brand name, firm brand name, etc...). This is where a brand name school can give you an advantage / more options if you want, or need, to move.

 
Relinquis:
People have a hard time assessing performance in deal/team based environments.

You can have great ability to execute deals, manage the process, understand the investment thesis (killing bad deals) and making sure the the deals you do are structured well... only your close colleagues will be able to see this. Outside of your team people can't assess your performance, so they rely on proxies (no. of years, school brand name, firm brand name, etc...). This is where a brand name school can give you an advantage / more options if you want, or need, to move.

I'm realizing this now and also realizing that I'd basically need my current group to sign off / recommend me for a transfer...and they're not about to do that. So be it, I'll find another way. As an aside, I've never met so many people that (1) don't want to think for themselves and (2) push off as much decision making as POSSIBLE onto other people / do it by the book....I expected this dynamic from a bunch of bean counters, not investment professionals.

Is this the disillusionment phase of the job?

Get busy living
 

I'm in a similar situation - went to a party school for my first two years of undergrad, only thing I have to show for it is lots of pictures from Vail and "bong team" t-shirts (sure you can guess which school it was). Transferred for my final 2 years, got straight As, ultimately ended up at MBB through an unusual path.

Now, I find that this story is an asset - I just completed my bschool interviews, where I was totally upfront with people about my path / past. And every person I met with told me it was a great story, and completely differentitated me from the other MBB candidates - who went to a target / got a 3.9 / were student body prez / started a non-profit.

It's also served me well at MBB - the partners I work with get a kick out of my path to consultant from back office, and every one that I work with remembers me because of it.

Point is, don't hide from it - it's true that it takes a ton of work to achieve the target school / good GPA / strong extracurriculars that I described as "typical", but it's even harder to get to IBD / MBB / etc if you put yourself in a hole and have to pull yourself back up. People recognize that (at least the smart ones).

 

I don't know if I'd put the LSAT on there. A lot of people wouldn't know what a good LSAT score is and it could raise questions about why you sat the LSAT , e.g. "why do you want to become a lawyer? don't you like doing RE deals/investing?"

"GMAT 700", might be worth putting in "other / skills / whatver", but I don't think it would matter much. If they're going to be snobs about your undergrad school it isn't going to do much. I don't see it hurting though.

 
UFOinsider:
How many years of employment does it take until people don't really care what you did in college? How many promotions does it take? Aside from earning the company $100MM or some ridiculous number, when do your actions start to speak louder than a damn piece of paper?

I ask because after being a lifetime straight A+ student, athlete, and member of clubs/organizations, I wasn't focused on school AT ALL during college for a lot of personal reasons (not worth going into here, I can sell that already). After working for a couple of years, I'm embarassed about the fact that I could have done so much better. Sometimes I hear "how the fuck did you do any of this with your credentials?" or "after some experience, no one cares about college except that you went." Despite 'conventional wisdom', there's a LOT of people who suck at life for a period of time and then get back on track.

At what point does work performance/experience/knowledge/progression begin outweigh school pedigree/major/GPA? When do people just not care that much where you came from and only look at what you've done recently....and where you want to go? How do I bury the past on this very specific issue?

As others have posted, the brand name may always be a factor, or point of bias for some, but at some point, once you prove your worth, it doesn't matter how you got there.
 

after you get your first job, your GPA will not matter anymore. and don't put too much stock in this target thing. their advantage is mainly confidence. some have real confidence but a lot have a false confidence that comes from the fact that they have a fancy degree. at the end it doesn't matter. confidence is key. develop it any way you can and this "target" anxiety won't matter so much. especially after 2-3 years you will be judged much more on your experience and workplace achievements.

 

The problem, though, is that if you start your professional career at the age of, say, 27, it's just as tough to work at 65 as it is if you started it at 22. That's how they get the late bloomers.

You need an obsessive focus on savings. Your gf needs to be a good value, and when she becomes your missus, she needs to be a keeper. Starting later means you don't have the luxury of screwing this up.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
I think we could touch $2500, but gold is heading back to 600 in six or seven years. CC: 1982.

Haha I love it when people give investment advice on WSO. Really? Gold is in a bubble? If you look at a log graph of Gold in its last bull market you can see that most of the price of gold was the result of a 2 month doubling in price then it collapsed.

If you cannot tell the reason why gold has been going up for 10 years in both bull and bear markets then I dont think you should be giving investment advice on WSO.

And I dont mean this as an indictment of you illini, this goes for everyong giving advice even if it is asked for.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up
 
ProdigyOfZen:
IlliniProgrammer:
I think we could touch $2500, but gold is heading back to 600 in six or seven years. CC: 1982.

Haha I love it when people give investment advice on WSO. Really? Gold is in a bubble? If you look at a log graph of Gold in its last bull market you can see that most of the price of gold was the result of a 2 month doubling in price then it collapsed.

If you cannot tell the reason why gold has been going up for 10 years in both bull and bear markets then I dont think you should be giving investment advice on WSO.

And I dont mean this as an indictment of you illini, this goes for everyong giving advice even if it is asked for.

So basically you are saying "this guy obviously doesn't understand gold since I have a different opinion on it so I'm qualified to give investment advice and he clearly is not". OK, I'll just take you on your word...

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
ProdigyOfZen:
Haha I love it when people give investment advice on WSO. Really? Gold is in a bubble? If you look at a log graph of Gold in its last bull market you can see that most of the price of gold was the result of a 2 month doubling in price then it collapsed.

If you cannot tell the reason why gold has been going up for 10 years in both bull and bear markets then I dont think you should be giving investment advice on WSO.

And I dont mean this as an indictment of you illini, this goes for everyong giving advice even if it is asked for.

Fair enough. Folks said the same thing in the '70s when the fed was printing even more money back then to pay for Vietnam. Ever since the 1930s, gold has largely kept pace with inflation and that's about it. Gold was definitely undervalued at $300/oz back in 2000, but between then and now ($1700), we've projected nearly 20 years of 10% inflation into the price.

I follow the guys at Zeal LLC, for my technicals. They called the dot-com bust and the crash of 2008. They also called the correction last year, though they were two months early. They believe in 17-year commodities and equities cycles, and we are starting to near the end of our current commodities cycle and need to be paying attention. IMHO, gold does not make a great 5-10 year investment at $1700/oz.

 
ProdigyOfZen:
Group think within the Ivy's is also systemic.
This is the part that makes me laugh: alums from those school oversaw the crash. I'd think people would kind of think "Geez, that didn't work out, let's try something different." That's just me.
Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
ProdigyOfZen:
Group think within the Ivy's is also systemic.
This is the part that makes me laugh: alums from those school oversaw the crash. I'd think people would kind of think "Geez, that didn't work out, let's try something different." That's just me.

I hear you. But the people who have to decide to change the way are from the Ivies. We should have a list of infamous Ivy graduates.

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 

This is a great post. im in a unique situation, ive been self employed for the last 12 years in the financial industry and lately have been running a one man bucket shop ibank, dealing mostly in project finance and bond issuance. Recently i made a decision to try and apply at any all ibanks, and by recently i mean this week. so far ive learned no one in my age group is going to be looked at for their education but what theyve done in the past. but this is a great topic since im sure theres many people out there in the same boat. fyi im 30 going to 31 next month.

and gold isnt in a bubble. expect a pullback and then parabolic move up. also focus on the poor mans gold, silver, thats a much better cheaper and over all intelligent bet to make due to scarcity. Remember gold measures fiat currencies value not the other way around, hence oil at $109. stay safe out there.

 

I read a book on this topic recently and thought it had an interesting argument.

Basically, his thesis was that it didn't matter what people studied, going to (inset top school here) is indicative of general intelligence levels and is simply a way of saying that you have achieved a general benchmark of intelligence. That is why the Yale english grad is taken over the state school engineering grad, not because of the course of study, but because the school you attended is in general indicative of your broader intelligence level, which is valuable since most training is on the job anyway.

Not saying that's right but I think his argument has some merit.

 
blackrainn:
I read a book on this topic recently and thought it had an interesting argument.

Basically, his thesis was that it didn't matter what people studied, going to (inset top school here) is indicative of general intelligence levels and is simply a way of saying that you have achieved a general benchmark of intelligence. That is why the Yale english grad is taken over the state school engineering grad, not because of the course of study, but because the school you attended is in general indicative of your broader intelligence level, which is valuable since most training is on the job anyway.

Not saying that's right but I think his argument has some merit.

His argument is totally correct. This is why Goldman Sachs IB recruiting will take most of its grads from the "top tier schools" no matter what their course of study was.

It could be art history they dont care. At least they know you can do the heavy work loads, have done better than average to get into college and have brand name behind you.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up
 
ProdigyOfZen:
blackrainn:
I read a book on this topic recently and thought it had an interesting argument.

Basically, his thesis was that it didn't matter what people studied, going to (inset top school here) is indicative of general intelligence levels and is simply a way of saying that you have achieved a general benchmark of intelligence. That is why the Yale english grad is taken over the state school engineering grad, not because of the course of study, but because the school you attended is in general indicative of your broader intelligence level, which is valuable since most training is on the job anyway.

Not saying that's right but I think his argument has some merit.

His argument is totally correct. This is why Goldman Sachs IB recruiting will take most of its grads from the "top tier schools" no matter what their course of study was.

It could be art history they dont care. At least they know you can do the heavy work loads, have done better than average to get into college and have brand name behind you.

LOL this topic has been beaten to death over and over. FWIW I had ins at several ivy/targe at the end of high school and stayed local not really understanding the difference. fucking OOPS!

But the question/topic still remains: putting that behind and just moving forward. Speaking for myself, it's basically a function of grad school at this point. Another year or two and SEEE YA bye

Get busy living
 

I went to a state school to save money. It worked out beautifully in the end.

Smart money doesn't need brand names to see talent. It's the dumb money that you need to worry about.

UFO is going to be a bit more limited in his grad school choices given his age. A lot of US schools look for students under 28, although Booth and Wharton apply a bit less scrutiny and you can get an MBA from Oxford at 45 if you want. Also, I am not sure an MBA is a great investment right now when we are likely to face 30 years of contracting GINIs. A much better investment is retirement savings.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
I went to a state school to save money. It worked out beautifully in the end.

Smart money doesn't need brand names to see talent. It's the dumb money that you need to worry about.

UFO is going to be a bit more limited in his grad school choices given his age. A lot of US schools look for students under 28, although Booth, Wharton, and the European schools apply a bit less scrutiny. Also, I am not sure an MBA is a great investment right now when we are likely to face 30 years of contracting GINIs. A much better investment is retirement savings.

So his only concern is the fact that he did not go the high way and attended a state school? Waw! I really thought that he had issues such as a terrible transcript etc

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 
IlliniProgrammer:
Smart money doesn't need brand names to see talent. It's the dumb money that you need to worry about.

Write this down kids. This might be one of the 10 best quotes in the history of WSO. I actually sat up in my chair when I read this. Thank god someone else gets it. For a minute there I was starting to think most of the people on this site are retarded.

It's the same reason that back in the day people used to say, "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." If you hire someone out of a top target, and they fuck up, you can write it up mentally and emotionally as just a fuck up -- coulda happened to anyone. If you hire the kid out of State U and he fucks up, then HE is the fuck up, and YOU fucked up by hiring him.

That said, the best managers in this business know good talent when they see it. Anyone needs to be smart and academically accomplished to succeed in this business, but that isn't even close to enough. The best analysts and PMs are gritty hustlers. Of course there are people like this out of top targets, but there are many that went to less prestigious schools that can kill it. You can teach investing, but you can't teach the qualities that make someone successful in this business.

 
Ravenous:
IlliniProgrammer:
Smart money doesn't need brand names to see talent. It's the dumb money that you need to worry about.

Write this down kids. This might be one of the 10 best quotes in the history of WSO. I actually sat up in my chair when I read this. Thank god someone else gets it. For a minute there I was starting to think most of the people on this site are retarded.

It's the same reason that back in the day people used to say, "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." If you hire someone out of a top target, and they fuck up, you can write it up mentally and emotionally as just a fuck up -- coulda happened to anyone. If you hire the kid out of State U and he fucks up, then HE is the fuck up, and YOU fucked up by hiring him.

That said, the best managers in this business know good talent when they see it. Anyone needs to be smart and academically accomplished to succeed in this business, but that isn't even close to enough. The best analysts and PMs are gritty hustlers. Of course there are people like this out of top targets, but there are many that went to less prestigious schools that can kill it. You can teach investing, but you can't teach the qualities that make someone successful in this business.

I agree with this, but you have to recognise three points of how recruiting/marketing work in the business: - People use brand names to market their team to outsiders. - It's harder for most people to asses performance in deal terms / longer term investments - Even at "smart" money firms, there are gatekeeper who can't tell the difference between someone who can "kill it" and someone who can't.

Ultimately, its your job to break through this and / or play the game. I'm doing both, putting my track record in front of people who "get it" and applying to b-school to "look" the part credential wise...

 

UFO, I'm confused. If you were accepted at top schools, you would need to have had a 3.8+ High School GPA and 1500+ SAT at the very least (assuming you're White). I realize that you can't use your HS GPA, but if you list your SAT score, and have a good story about why your College GPA sucked, I'm sure you could make some headway with some hustle.

We've actually hired a SA, who has a similar profile (non-target, 2.8 GPA, and 2370 SAT). He wouldn't have even made it past HR under normal circumstances. But he made the effort to network with us, and he had a solid story to make up for his GPA (had a very specific family problem).

GPA demonstrates work ethic, and SAT demonstrates raw intellectual horsepower. You have solid SAT scores, so just have a good "why I fucked up and graduated from a non-target" story and you'll be fine.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.
 
Leonidas:
UFO, I'm confused. If you were accepted at top schools, you would need to have had a 3.8+ High School GPA and 1500+ SAT at the very least (assuming you're White). I realize that you can't use your HS GPA, but if you list your SAT score, and have a good story about why your College GPA sucked, I'm sure you could make some headway with some hustle.

We've actually hired a SA, who has a similar profile (non-target, 2.8 GPA, and 2370 SAT). He wouldn't have even made it past HR under normal circumstances. But he made the effort to network with us, and he had a solid story to make up for his GPA (had a very specific family problem).

GPA demonstrates work ethic, and SAT demonstrates raw intellectual horsepower. You have solid SAT scores, so just have a good "why I fucked up and graduated from a non-target" story and you'll be fine.

Couple of things: I / family knew adcoms personally, but I didn't take advantage of it or even apply, despite them saying I was meh good enough......and they knew me. A very close friend with basically the same stats DID apply to those schools and then went to the same local school I did. It just wasn't on anyone's radar where I'm from? I don't know.

I did get accepted to top engineering schools but didn't want to be an engineer, and SAT scores were very good. The only interviewer that ever asked my GPA also asked for SAT and combined with a personal history basically understood and looked over it. Funny part is that I fell asleep during the SAT, I just didn't understand how important it was. All fine and well, I've got that part of the system beat.

Thing is, I'm trying to get to the point where I don't have to keep (1) ninja dodging the GPA/school issue or (2) walking people through my damn life. This feels like having a felony offence on my record when it was really just a few very bad years. NO ONE in their right mind asks a post MBA IBD MD how they did in high school, when are college scores going to just not matter? The whole "I went to blah blah blah and got a blah blah blah" thing just looks like the same loser crowd that talks about high school at the age of 40. It's the past, who cares?

It seems an MBA from a decent school + a few years of experience after that and it will be a dead issue.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider][quote=Leonidas:
Thing is, I'm trying to get to the point where I don't have to keep (1) ninja dodging the GPA/school issue or (2) walking people through my damn life. This feels like having a felony offence on my record when it was really just a few very bad years. NO ONE in their right mind asks a post MBA IBD MD how they did in high school, when are college scores going to just not matter? The whole "I went to blah blah blah and got a blah blah blah" thing just looks like the same loser crowd that talks about high school at the age of 40. It's the past, who cares?

In other words, you are tired of having to always apologize for your undergrad performance even though your career path speaks louder than your GPA.

What type of family problem would a good excuse be?

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 

Hmm, I dont know about listing my SAT score, I took it when it was still on a 1600 scale. But I could see how this might work for recent grads.

I think I am going to start lying about my GPA (family problems boo-hoo). Of course, that's a slap in the face to people who got better grades than me in college and people who actually had family problems...

Man made money, money never made the man
 
RE Capital Markets:
Hmm, I dont know about listing my SAT score, I took it when it was still on a 1600 scale. But I could see how this might work for recent grads.

I think I am going to start lying about my GPA (family problems boo-hoo). Of course, that's a slap in the face to people who got better grades than me in college and people who actually had family problems...

I'm almost 2 years into my Analyst stint, and I still list my SAT score (I also took the old SAT). And I've even seen a few non-MBA Associates list it. But if you don't want to for some reason, you could always list your GMAT. Like I said, the only issue people have with non-targets, is that they're not as smart as targets. If your stats are "Ivy caliber", I don't think it matters too much.

If you have a high LSAT score though, do NOT list it. I learned that the hard way.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.
 

I did the MSF path, and literally nobody questions the fact that I have a 2.3 from an unknown school(because I leave the GPA off). Its the best way to go in the near-term, and still leaves you open for a solid MBA in the future.

I also list my near-perfect GRE score

Array
 

You'll usually have a short 3-line bio on each of the main guys at the back of a fund's OM, which includes where they went to school. At smaller funds it would be the whole team (say 4-6 people). If you want to raise you own fund, people will ask about your background in detail (experience trumps all though).

As to the guys you linked to: - Pike & Heady were at MSREF. Blackstone has hired quite a few MSREF people over the years (at different levels)... Also their experience was probably great prior to BXP. Could someone let me know if they ever did a team hire from MSREF? - McDonagh is financial control, not on the "deal team".

Not to go on an REPE tangent,

I have a feeling Blackstone Real Estate would fall into the "smart money" bucket that Ravenous mentioned. They do tend to focus on experience and hired the MSREF analyst that all of the Opp funds wanted when I was recruiting junior guys for our team. I can see them turning down the GS TMT / HBS MBA guys that WSO drools over at the associate level because they haven't done real estate and haven't been investors (horses for courses).

I've never heard people from Blackstone's RE group say anything about their academic backgrounds (I've met a few of their senior folks). I did have one of their Senior MDs tell me once that Whitehall couldn't afford to pay enough to have the kind of people that BXP have... Maybe it was just bravado, but it seemed that he thought their team was unique and not just cookie cutter BBIB/BSchool types.

Anyway, Blackstone have an established track record and is constantly raising new funds through their Park Hill group. The fund raising process for them is pretty institutional. Its not the same as an independent REPE firm that fund raises once every 3-5 years.

Check out the backgrounds of people at Westbrook, Northwood (John Z. Kukral; ex-Blackstone), etc... You'll see quite a few none Ivy league/Oxbridge backgrounds, but those guys will have decent experience and/or solid prior firms. Keep in mind that there are fewer REPE roles out there than there was in the past.

A few years ago, I personally ran into the Masters issue with potential Investment Banking roles at GS & Perella even though I knew MDs/PMDs there. I went to a no name school for undergrad though, to the extent that it cost me a few entry level opportunities (one at a start up REPE fund, the other at one of the "universal" investment banks). I'm glad that I didn't end up taking those later two roles as I definitely ended up at a better REPE firm to start my career with. On the other hand, my education never comes up during the normal course of business and it wasn't even mentioned in any of my interviews when I went from my first REPE firm to another firm which was much larger (able to do multi-billion dollar deals).

I'm going to have a discussion with another REPE firm about joining their team in the next couple of weeks. I'll let you guys know if they bring up the Masters/Brand name issue... Its still a tough world out there in real estate, so use any advantage you can get.

 

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Pariatur enim nesciunt reiciendis omnis est dolor dolorum. Quo voluptate suscipit nam nesciunt ratione illo cumque. Quod quae voluptatem est autem error.

 

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Sit placeat veritatis unde at magnam non saepe itaque. Rerum fugiat similique non. Aliquid sunt quo officia ipsam autem ut molestias quo. Est esse et nulla dolore animi earum repellat.

If you expect a dog to bite you you'll be happy when al they do is pee on your shoes.
 

Ullam eos dolorum maiores hic quia blanditiis et in. Corporis esse laboriosam illo. Hic ea voluptatibus incidunt non. Explicabo dicta expedita ut repellendus. Qui voluptatum occaecati esse iure aperiam. Unde quo voluptas quia animi totam cumque.

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"Rage, rage against the dying of the light." - DT
 

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