Hey guys,
What are your opinions on business frats? Are they all that they claim to be concerning significant advantage in alumni network & job placement? Or is it just- a frat where people interested in business hang out. I hear pledging takes a lot of time. Is it worth it? I'm specifically thinking about joining Alpha Kappa Psi, but this applies to all business frats
thanks
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I personally do not think it does much, unless there is an alumni from your specific school who was in that frat, that can help you. However, anything positive you can add on your resume (i.e. extracurricular activities) helps and shows you can handle multiple responsibilities. A better avenue would be to join a "Workshop" that is created for the sole purpose for job /internship placement like Indiana, Iowa, and some other colleges offer (if your school does offer it).
I feel like if you were in that business frat (call it a fraternity please, from someone is in a real one...) or not an alumni from your school wont not talk to you because you were not in that business fraternity.
Yes it might make either a) finding them or b) starting conversation with them easier, but an alumni of your school would probably be willing to talk to you if you reach out in the correct way whether you were in that organization or not.
To be honest I think it's a waste of time, the type of people who I've seen that join these frats are in general complete morons. In fact I would advise doing exactly the opposite.
This.
I've actually met quite a few people on the Street who find business frats to be toolish.
I'm sure they would help out for people looking to less competitive jobs in accounting, corporations, etc. Pretty worthless for jobs on the street..
Would simply having it as a single line on the resume look bad? What about social fraternities/sororities?
Depends on college. I know UC Berkley has one of the most prestigious business frats on West Coast. My college has two and both are pretty useless for me.
It's not about the name of the frat, it's about the power of the chapter.
PussInBoots, what frat is that, and is it only prestigious on the west coast?
I think the fraternity you're talking about is Deltasig. I graduated from Cal in 2005 and at the time those kids were rockstars, they practically took every job offered at Cal. Not sure what the reputation is on the east coast, but they must still be doing well. They were the only kids from the west coast minus a few from Stanford that interviewed at my bank. However, I heard there were quite a few other organizations there that recruited well for banking.
How exactly does being in (just a member, not leadership or anything) a organization help with recruiting for SA or FT?
It's Delta Sigma Pi at Berkeley. Delta Sig = Delta Sigma Phi (social fraternity)
Here are their placements, it's pretty impressive since they actually list it.
http://www.dsp-rho.com/Brothers-CareersInternships.html
IMO, do it if it's of this caliber, which will be rare.
When I was in school, they were called Deltasigs or "DSP". Not sure what they do. They probably have connections, but they seem to know they're stuff. Didn't have anyone pull for them at my office (to my knowledge at least).
That list looks pretty monstrous. I had heard they were losing ground... guess I heard wrong.
Yeah, it's Deltasigs or DSP. Would it help if I were a part of another chapter, but want to work on the west coast instead? Or maybe they only help those who are in the Cal chapter of DSP...?
They sent 16 kids to Goldman?? I didn't even know the bulge brackets recruited so heavily at Berkeley.
aquamarinee, I would say it depends on the person. It's up to how nice they are and their capacity, but its worth a try.
And they might be on the decline? I am suspicious as to why they didn't post the 2009 summer internships, although I'm sure they're fairing better than others.
Small world. After looking at the website, I realized I met one of the brothers in NY. Really smart guy, and a hell of a drinker. Goes to show that the banking community is pretty small, even from coast to coast.
jack, small world indeed. pretty sure I know whom you're talking about (I was also in NY for training just a few weeks ago). do you work for pwp?
Considering all the business frats I've encountered didn't actually do the fun shit associated with frats and were filled with tools, I'd recommend staying away. I can't name a single person from any of those "frats" that did anything other than Big 4 accounting shit.
Here's how being a business frat helps:
1) Internships at middle-market banking companies and valuation firms are often passed down from brother to brother. When one of the brothers finishes the internship and is going to move on to BB, he will "recommend" someone to take that spot. This provides valuable starting experience your freshman and sophomore years.
2) Business fraternity brothers will often pass down past midterms and finals (which lazy professors often use similar questions) so they can get the GPA needed for successful recruiting.
3) Fraternity alumni working in the banks as analysts are the ones pulling the resumes. They will obviously pull resumes from their frat. One of my friends at Berkeley told me that of the 20 people in DSP who submitted resumes for Goldman Sachs last year for SA, 19 received first round interviews. Not a coincidence...
4) Once you get the interview, the questions are pretty standard. Most questions will be in ibankingfaq.com. For the more esoteric topics, brothers who are working in banking or who have gone through the recruiting process will hold interview workshops. Banking interviews are not like consulting interviews -- it can easily be learned.
5) Most of the Berkeley offers appear to be west coast. The banks' SF, LA, and Tech (Menlo Park, Palo Alto) offices are filled primarily with candidates from California. Stanford does not have a business undergrad degree, so there are not that many candidates. This leaves Berkeley (and to a marginal extent, USC and UCLA) as schools to pull from.
Thus, it's not a mystery why DSP places well. In fact I'm told that other business organizations at Berkeley place extremely well too (M/B/B, Blackstone, Goldman, JPM, Lazard, etc.)
I'd be careful about giving the impression to those looking to join a business frat that it's smooth sailing after getting in, regardless of the reputation of the chapter or its members.
While connections help, I don't know anyone on the street that would ruin their credibility by recommending someone they didn't think was a good candidate. Even beyond that point, I can't imagine undergrads would have that amazing of connections beyond the analyst, maybe associate levels, positions that have very little (or no) say in who receives offers. I'm not surprised DSP got 19/20 for Goldman if that's true. While the number is high, there are tons of people who get first round interviews. I'm more impressed with the number of people who got offers. The sheer number of people that get cut from first rounds to offers is staggering, and it's not as easy to clinch an offer as you make it seem.
I also don't think the power student organizations have is as strong as you make it seem. Every organization has connections. There are always a few people from each group that make it into great places. But there aren't that many organizations that can boast such an impressive track record.
You seem to imply that Berkeley has an edge when it comes to recruiting due to a lack of applicants on the west coast, which is definitely not true. There are tons of kids from the east coast that interview for west coast offices and I would say Berkeley is not near the top of the list in terms of prestige. It's below Stanford, despite the lack of undergrad business.
Coming from Cal and recruiting for both banking and consulting, I know how tough it can be to recruit. Seeing an organization that consistently places into good firms is impressive. I can respect that.
And to those interested, don't feel pressure to join a frat for the sake of banking. It's not required.
I didn't meant to give the impression that being in a business frat will necessarily result in the job of your choice. However, given the reasons stated above, your likelihood of obtaining a banking job is better, especially if you weren't that knowledgeable about banking to begin with.
Having said that, joining a business frat promotes a herd mentality (especially looking at DSP's list). It seems that almost there everyone joins banking -- at Stanford and Berkeley, I think consulting is better regarded coming out of college, especially if you are on the business track.
Also, I didn't say Stanford is below Berkeley in the recruiting totem pole. Just that Stanford had less applicants. I went to Stanford myself, but saw a majority of Cal students at interviews during the recruiting cycle (simply given the number of students in their business program). However, I still assert that the west coast schools are the dominant presence in the California offices.
No shit, Stanford has 6,500 undergrads, while Cal has 25,000. Either way Stanford and Berkeley pretty much own Bay Area. Both are very close to investment banks, hence part-time 15 hour internships during school year are common. Those little gigs give a huge advantage in SA recruitment. I've seen few posts on Doostang from SF boutiques saying something along the lines "We'd like our interns to stay part time after SA."
P.S.: prestige-wise Stanford is much better than Cal.
mford, I don't work for perella, but the guy I met was interning there. we didn't talk about it much, but I was pretty impressed. they're analyst class was 9 this year and everyone had prior experience in banking, most at BBs.
Frats in IB (Originally Posted: 01/16/2007)
Just wanted to get an idea on which frats are represented most throughout I-banking, and whether or not it has helped you in your career thus far.
For the record, I'm a Pike (Pi Kappa Alpha)
i hate frats. they're all maatherchods.
having something in common with an interviewer is always good. frats are no exception. its useful
Yeah it would be the same if your interviewer went to your almer mater, goes along if they went to the same frat, hometown, highschool, etc.
People care more about what school you went to.
It can help a lot, actually, if one of the resume readers was in your frat at your school. I found out I got interviews at several places early thanks to this, and my school's branch of my frat is well represented at one bank so pretty much everyone with a decent GPA gets an interview.
I'm not sure how much it helps (in terms of getting the interview) if the person reading your resume was in the same frat as you but at a different school.
Interestingly enough, I think sorority involvement can actually be a detriment, if you're in the "wrong one" but I don't think the same goes for frats. People who are in not so cool frats but are decent, smart people seemed to do fine in terms of getting interviews and jobs at my school.
yeah right on mark.
Business Fraternities (Originally Posted: 02/08/2007)
Do business fraternities do much to help undergraduates get placed for top internships? Is it true that recruiters who come to campus look to them first for quality candidates etc? Have you ever bumped anyone ahead of someone else just because they were in an organization like this?
Had an interview with a VP of a firm that was a former president of the business fraternity I was president of at the time. Needless to say, he turned off the bad cop persona real quick, tossed the technical questions, and I ended up with an offer 3 hours after I left the superday.
erm... Whats a business fraternity?
Most Common Frats? (Originally Posted: 03/01/2007)
What frats are best represented at the BBs?
I hope your not picking which fraternity to pledge based on how many alumni work at BBs...
I wonder if those are your true intentions. I've met a few ZETA PSI alums who got in from NYU.
Join Sigma chi just to be on the safe side. They are everywhere.
I heard Phi Beta Sigma is well represented at GS
You're aware that PBS is a black frat, right. GS has that much diversity? But anyways, i heard that PIKE (Pi Kappa Alpha) is huge on The Street as well.
PBK
true.
Frats are all dependent on schools...
I'm sure Phi Beta Sigma and Zeta Phi are good up North, but down South, or at least at UT-Austin, it's FIJI, SAE, and Sig Ep.
It's wierd though, thinking about all the frat connections in terms of getting hooked up with jobs and such. I have friends here at UT in my fraternity who will barely graduate in May with a 2.0, and they are all going to make tons more money than all of us future analysts. PE to some people down here means buying a ranch, stocking it up with wild game, and turning around and selling it a few years later for a huge profit.
total frat move.
Try to go out and make your own friends, rather than audition for some and then pay them a few grand so you can hang with them. The personal skills you develop having to go out yourself and meet new people will help you get ibanking rather than some frat connection.
faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag
I have met a few ATO's(Alpha Tau Omega) on the Street.
Every bank will have at least two - three large frat footprints that will cover every frat out there. So whoever you end up pledging with, chances are they'll have people everywhere on Wall Street.
that's not necessarily true. most times it's the bigger frats that will have SIGNIFICANT footprints everywhere (Pike, SigEp, SAE, Beta, etc).
However, as was said before, the choice should be more about you fitting in with the people there than how big your network will be afterwards.
just out of curiousity, what does anybody know about akpsi, the so called business frat? Not necessarily in terms of banking, but just business/finance/whatever in general? I always wondered about the legitimacy of it all and if its business nature really had any difference over your "normal" frats
West Coast banks have a lot of Kappa Epsilon Gamma's, especially in LA.
i'm in one of the akpsi chapters and it's helped me A LOT in terms of getting jobs. my friend who's also in akpsi with me recently interviewed at Morgan Stanley SF, and the MD told him that these business frat kids "just seem more prepared". so there you go.
Sigma Chi
I second that notion.
,
Any Delta Sigma Pi's (business frat) around here? While AKPSI is our sworn rival, I agree affiliation with a business frat helps, as it's a little easier in interviews to talk about the career fair you planned instead of the 5-kegger you planned (while equally impressive).
I didn't know business frats had such blood-crips rivarly while planning attacks on each other via computer viruses.
sig ep here.
Should one put frat membership on the resume? (not a business frat)
yes
How well is ZBT represented at top BBs?
[that awkward moment when you shake hands with your new MD and then realize he probably also had to do the elephant walk down state street]
Aepi = very well represented
ΖΨ
coming from non fratstar
tons of sig eps on the street, and I know a bunch of sig eps that got jobs on the street after grad in the past few years
only issue, sig ep at my uni was a complete joke
Alpha Kappa Psi/ Business Frat (Originally Posted: 09/16/2008)
Has anybody gotten a full-time/summer analyst position because they were in a business frat and connected with other brothers? If so, how did u reach out to other brothers in other chapters?!?!
i always thought business frats were kind of a joke...
So what do you do? -I work for an investment banking firm. Oh okay; you are like my brother, he works for Edward Jones. -No, a college degree is required in my profession
At my school it helps a lot. You meet directly with recruiters (they hold sessions just for AKPsi and DSP--separately of course) and banks ask you for resumes from interested juniors/seniors.
Wow so fucking impressed at your school aloki Do u think a recruiter would look at your resume and not throw it out if your in the same frat regardless of alma matter?
Meh,
Good group to find people with similar interests. Not too much else here.
Business frats are a joke. Join a real one.
lol ok so i guess ill drop out of it then LOLOLOL
I guess you could meet someone interested in your field and get some sort of network, so I'd stay in it.
123123
the douchier the frats, the better the connections.
Couldn't hurt. Generally, business fraternities require less time (re: opportunity cost) than "social" fraternities. At worst, you increase your network by at least 25 like minded business students.
I was in AKPsi in college. Waste of time in terms of developing real professional contacts. But it's a good way to get a leadership position, and depending on your school, there could be some (relatively) hot girls in it.
Waste of time anywhere except, of all places (I shit you not), UCBerkeley. For some reason, the DSP chapter operating out of that bankrupt internment commune / "Rainbow Gathering" continues to populate the Analyst classes of some pretty fucking incredible firms and their ultra-selective groups (e.g. GS TMT, MS Menlo, Qatalyst, Moelis, JPMorgan TMT, etc.).
I know a lot of them, and am actually great friends with them, but my theory is that they have the "obsequious manservant" persona down cold--that is, they know how to really sell their submission. It's important for the rank-and-file "grinders" layer (Analyst classes of BBs and Elite Boutiques), but their being absent from more prestigious exit opportunities (sure, there are a few that manage to graduate to Silver Lake or TPG, or even HBS) lends credence to my theory.
Long story short--don't bother. If you go to Stanford or an Ivy, you won't need a Business Fraternity. If you go Cal Berkeley, then definitely go for DSP (AKPsi there sucks; only a few people actually manage to secure a GS internship, and one of those listings just says "Investment Management").
plus you get a sweet dsp fleece to rock with the haas backpack
my school also has prominent business fraternities. and it's not UCBerkeley
obsequious manservant... that might be spot-on. I have run into a few of them and they are all similarly robotic; something about that pledge process destroys their individuality.
AKPsi at Stanford is also no joke - they know their shit and seem to place well.
I'm part of AKPsi at Northwestern. It's only helpful because they hold interview workshops for both consulting and banking. and share a dropbox link for class resources.. haven't gotten much out of it besides that..
professional fraternities (Originally Posted: 09/17/2010)
i wasn't sure where to put this. What's your take on professional business fraternities compared with strictly social fraternities? are they worth it? do they look good on your resume?
.
Do you want a cookie now?
"Professional" business fraternities (like Delta Sigma Pi or Alpha Kappa Psi) help your career goals tremendously. They grow your leadership, social, and networking skills while giving you access to a dense alumni network. I was involved in one of those fraternities in college and I cannot begin to describe the types of opportunities it gave me as far as jobs/internships--and let's not forget social events.
Strictly social fraternities I cannot speak for, but I can't imagine that you'd be able to leverage the same kinds of networking connections by joining these, especially if you have your eyes on Wall Street, IMHO.
this is very dependent on how strong the organization itself is. We had Alpha Kappa Psi at my school and it wasn't even a sustainable group, it was nearly disbanded prior to the student government stepping in and providing additional financial backing. I say evaluate it on a case by case basis. If you will be networking with yourself, i'd pass. if it's a 2500 student power organization, sign right up.
the social events eh, i bet the professional fraternities throw it down like no one else
If it helps you get an interview via networking its worth it, but it's not impressive on a resume.
What's the scoop on professional fraternities? (Originally Posted: 12/03/2010)
-freshman in college nearing end of fall semester.
Benefits/disadvantages? Suggested to join one?
Available: Alpha Kappa Psi Phi Chi Theta Delta Sigma Pi
thanks.
This something that never really gets any mention on WSO. It really comes down to what you make of it. Joining one won't be your ticket to wall street, but if you take the time to network they can be beneficial.
You get out of them what you put in.
Join a regular fraternity.
+1
Most Wall Streeters in fraternities are in social ones. Having been in a professional fraternity for 2 years, I can say it was pretty much useless.
hows NYU Stern? haha another sternie tool looking for a frat to help them get an internship. Not surprised
akpsi is hit or miss depending on the college. uc berkeley's chapter is a machine focused on building out its network while other chapters brand themselves more as a co-ed social fraternity. i'd say that unless the professional fraternity actually has somewhat of a network built out for you to tap into while recruiting, you're probably better off in the social scene. hell, at my school i know social fraternities with better placement on wall street than the professional fraternities.
Very true at my school as well.
edit: I'm not a very strong IB candidate, but was able to get an offer because of coaching/recommendations from alumni of my (social) fraternity.
+1 for social fraternities. Being in charge of anything in a social fraternity is a ton of fun and, I think, very underrated as a source of good preparation for life post-graduation.
I'd say that something like 90% of my ability to do my job is due to the time I put into my fraternity. IB is absolutely about number crunching, but to really thrive and not want to kill yourself, you have to be able to make friends, manage your time, manage expectations, and put up with temper tantrums. Running a social fraternity is exactly like this.
+1. It can be a really incredible leadership experience.
I am in both a social and DSP...
I think they are both worth it, and things you should definitely consider.
DSP is great because I have made a lot of great professional contacts. It and AKpsi have huge networks... just talked with a kid last week from a completely different chapter and helped him get contacts at the BB where I worked this past summer. Also it has girls! Can't stress the last point enough... coed-fraternities are great!
My social is worth it too but for different reasons.... others have stressed them enough here
Role of Fraternities in Recruiting (Originally Posted: 01/31/2011)
So, recently I have been talking to a few people on campus about their upcoming interviews and people that they know who were given interviews. They told me that out of the 15 people who received interviews at J.P Morgan, 13 were in akp and the other 2 were in dsp. Then for Barclays, there were 20 people accepted for interviews and 13 people were in AKP.
They also went into detail about the special recruiting/networking sessions that banks hold with these select business fraternities. One guy even said that the banks only take from the business frats because the frats have already done the recruiting work and have the best people available for interviews.
Personally, I despise frats and do not want to join one. However, it seems that they have a significant advantage and I feel left out. It seems unfair to the people who are involved in other campus activities and have other interests but still want to do banking. And by that I mean, people who are in finance related clubs or sports and not in these frats.
How big of a role do these frats play? Also, I go to an IVY and find the selectivity of the recruitment to frats shocking because there are plenty of qualified candidates who are not a part of business frats.
Business fraternities aren't "frats" they are clubs full of minorities.
On the other hand, banks love recruiting kids in actual fraternities where they get social white men with a good work ethic.
You should be hazed for posting this.
I'm in a social fraternity, and it has barely helped me out in terms of SA recruiting
We don't have frats in Canada at least in my university ;)
.
You go to Cornell, don't you? That's the only school I know of where being in a business frat really matters
People recruit people like them so that the new analysts/interns fit in with the desk as a whole. If the guy who's going through resumes was in one of those Frats then he's more likely to pick guys who are also in it. Everyone does that. Makes sense really in a way because you have a little more familiarity with those candidates than another one sometimes. Also a lot of times students can more easily contact people in finance that were in their frat, so chances are there are a lot of kids who just networked their way to an interview. Not surprising really.
A lot of schools don't have big Greek life though, so I think it would really depend on what your own school is like.
Personally, I don't like most frats because of the asshats I've had experience with, but there are some decent ones out there for sure. Being in a frat is just another way to network. One of my friends got his dream job after spending a year at a BB IB in NY when one of his older frat brothers called him up saying they were looking for someone to fill a position quick and he thought of him. It's just another way to expand your network and potentially meet lifelong friends.
I found being in a frat (i got tricked into joining one that was really a sinking ship and hated it) only had one thing to offer....fall rush... All the young guys are trying to make a good impression and will do anything to get a bid, they bring all their hot new freshman girl classmates to your house party and it is the most glorious thing ever. Fuck this makes me miss rush so much...
Let me put this out there up front: "business fraternities" like AKPsi are NOT the same thing as "social fraternities" (aka real fraternities, with alcohol, girls, parties, and fun). Business fraternities are just finance clubs that people join to pad their resumes. Does AKPsi help you get interviews? Absolutely not. I couldn't give a shit if somebody is in a business fraternity. Good for them I guess, but it's not like they're getting an interview over somebody with a higher GPA or more relevant major. As mentioned above, it is probably selection bias - the people that are in AKPsi are probably the ones that are interested in finance, had relevant internships, etc. It's not that people that are in AKPsi get interviews, it's that people that get interviews are in AKPsi.
On the flip side of the coin, I've definitely given a kid a second look because he was in the same social fraternity that I was in. Often times social fraternities help balance you out, teach you to talk with people, have a good time, and be normal. Not saying it's always the rule, but as a generality, if a kid has a strong resume and is also in a social fraternity, it's a pretty good bet that he's more personable than the kid that is independent.
I was/am in a business fraternity that you mentioned. The real deal is this: it's going to be COMPLETELY different from chapter to chapter. Some chapters are very well connected, and others are a joke--basically just a club trying to act cool. Ours was pretty good.
For finance specifically, you'll probably be able to make better connections if you have a well run investment club at your school. That said, AKPsi/DSP stuff can be fun for social/non-career related stuff, again of course depending on what kind of chapter that your school has. Ours was fun, but I've seen others who range from just straight up nerds to try-hards (i.e.: nobody gives a shit if you're a personal banker at Chase, quit bragging).
I completely agree wtih JulianRoberston. My school has a student managed mutual fund of over $4 million in real assets. I am in AKPsi and our Chapter is very well connected with alumni on Wall Street including Chase, GS, BofA and we use those contacts whenever we can.
As JR said, it varies from school to school but can you blame a monkey who is applying to a company for trying to leverage the shit out of the fraternity to get the job/internship?
I've definitely selected people if they were in my social fraternity, and it helped me quite a bit. My fraternity has a pretty solid banking alumni base and we would typically pull resumes for the guys the classes below us. I do not usually pay attention to the business fraternities because at my school I found these kids to be "try-hards" in general. I think it really depends on the fraternity and the school. I have heard friends dinging interview candidates because they had a bad impression of a candidates fraternity, but I do not think that is too common.
I actively discriminate against kids in social frats. I have really found that most kids who talk about their fraternity experience or had leadership roles in frats tend to not have the hunger and drive that those socially on the margins do. Not to say they aren't hard working, but I really look for the kids that are driven to the point that they almost carry a nasty edge that borders on anti-social. Not the types you'll find in a frat house. Business frats I just disregard and dont care about.
Take what i say with a grain of salt because I know some people prefer to hire frat guys, but it's just not my cup of tea.
Will you guys stop talking about the business "frats"...they are not fraternities. In a fraternity guys do stuff like go hunting, boating, etc... together, slay trim, and drink until they are on the point of death. A business "frat" is nothing like this and is just a business club.
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I completely agree with you about the business frats not being real but the thing about hunting and boating is not true in the northeast of the US. In my frat there were prob 2 guys who hunted and they were considered hicks.
Desk I am on does not look too kindly at social frats. I am not saying everyone in a frat is an arrogant douche bag, but it does attract them in droves. It got to the point where it became so blazingly obvious in interview that we just gave up on them. This is a generalisation of course, but knowing what allot of frat guys are really like does not make us want to hire them. Again, this is a broad brush stroke, but this is just what we have found.
For me, anyone who took difficult positions, like president, would be at an advantage because he can handle the high stress level of being accountable for his decisions/actions. I interviewed someone, who was a rush chair, and I remember seeing that in a favorable way because he was able to articulate how he handled the challenges he faced. He later got the job (obviously not for the reason of being a rush chair though). On the other hand, being in a frat without taking positions is a red flag for me because I assume that he's not willing to take responsibilities or that no one trusts him enough to elect him for a position. Usually, the more stereotypical, arrogant frat boys are in the latter category.
I've never interviewed anyone in a business frat but if I were to interview one, I'd probably instantly label him as a boring person, who joined for purely practical purposes like networking, unless he's either genuinely passionate about business or he convinces me otherwise through his personality/interests. Boring or not though, if he was the president of a bus. frat, I'd consider it a plus.
I think this is the real takeaway from this discussion. Obviously, having leadership stuff on your resume will never hurt you, but fraternities are an especially good way of showing your dedication and leadership because of the amount of dedication it takes to assume those leadership roles. Simply put, there's a lot more that goes into being president of a fraternity than being president of some other random club. Knowing this, I personally think that being in a fraternity and holding a leadership role is a great way to help make your resume stand out. It's certainly not enough to salvage an otherwise lackluster resume (esp. poor grades, non-target school) but it would add a LOT to an otherwise solid resume.
Full disclosure: I held leadership positions in my social fraternity (not president) and was president of the IFC. phi phi.
I entirely agree with the selection bias argument. I was a member of one of the big 2 business fraternities at a non-target and only the overachievers amongst us got into IB/Consulting.
In terms of a business fraternity not being a "real fraternity" and nothing more than a finance club... this varies GREATLY from chapter to chapter. My fraternity had a pledge period compete with obscene amounts of drinking, and both mental and physical hazing. Like real physical shit... I played varsity sports in HS, and I'd never been so physically exhausted in my life. It wasn't uncommon for 50% of a pledge class to quit before it was over, but after crossing it was one big party. And unlike the social fraternities, bringing girls to our parties wasn't an issue since we were co-ed.
'fraternity', more like 'crapternity' amirite?
At my school, business frats were simply a collection of non-URM minorities, i.e DSP >90% Asian, BAP is >80% Asian, AKPsi 75%+ ... it's a collection of kids who are super-interested in finance and all get together for events. They do seem have a bit of a networking advantage that I can see at least, multiple times a week hosting professional development events, topical seminars, and networking events. I don't think it's an automatic feed for recruiting, but if you're a standout I can see it helping with networking.
I agree with the comment that it's more like the superstars who get interviews tend to be in the business frat, not that the business frat creates and fosters superstars.
Social frats are a completely different scenario altogether.
i was in akp at my school. fucking waste of time.
Any form of connection can give you an advantage. If you and a competing student go to the same university, and the interviewer, a graduate, was in the same frat as the other kid, he obviously will have an advantage. Why you are concerned and getting caught up with this kinda bull shit is beyond me, its nothing you can control, just worry about what you can control. If your qualified and nail your interview, eventually you will get something, frat or not.
on another note, one advantage that i can attest to is the alumni network. a friend of mine at a target who had some weaknesses on his resume got into BB after one of his older business fraternity "bros" at the VP level fought to get him final round interviews. this, however, was not AKP or DSP, but a much tighter-knit fraternity that they started themselves.
When I was interning I found out that my being in a business frat was a strike against me when I interviewed. My bosses were all in social frats and came to look at people in DSP as uptight drones.
Based on my experience, it was true and i got the hell out as soon as I could.
There's a fine line between a "frat" and a fraternity. It only takes one guy and one bad experience to taint your views of the greek system.
I probably wouldnt hunt or fish either if i went to school in the NE, just doesn't make sense. But in the south everyone hunts, why not? If it's nice out, you have a shitload of land, awesome guns, and a sweet ranch why not go kill animals.... Personally i am way more of a lake person but don't hate cause the weather is so shitty up north that your fratting consists of prepping for ib interviews, while drinking your pop and tailgaiting for your shitty d3 football team. I know live in Chicago and think it is 1000x more fun of a city than anywhere in the south (NYC is also way more fun), but I can't pretend to not be jealous when i see weather reports of what's going on in Texas and then I have to walk a mile in a foot of snow...
Personally I am very involved in my social fraternity at my school. The networking opportunities I gained from this organization has played a large role in my success getting small internships to build my resume. In addition, being an active leader in my fraternity has given me experience in a number of situations working with people that I will be able to apply throughout business and life.
Hmm that is weird, Sarah Palin hick bullshit (taking place in Alaska) and the southernmonkey's post (taking place in the south) only occur in one region?? You making fun of southerners hunting is equal to southerners making fun of you and your friends for skiing... Two completely different climates, landscapes, and game in the NE and south region, who are you to say hunting/fishing is hickish. Hicks are all over the country, upstate NY, Indiana, Montana, and yes even in Texas. Please elaborate on how going to a multi-millione dollar ranch or lakehouse and getting drunk with your friends (after or before shooting guns, obviously not during) is hickish? Adapt or Die, please don't comment on scenarios you know absolutely nothing about.
Its more the fact that killing animals for fun is not the same as skiing down a mountain.
"Please elaborate" "don't comment" ... you're making loads of sense
Relax internet muscles, I'm just pointing out that in metropolitan areas of the northeast fraternities do not organize hunting/shooting day trips. It's more about drinking, partying, big houses etc. I'm personally not into hunting but it's fine for others, to each their own.
I do not kill animals for PURELY fun, i eat them too....unless it's a hog, then it's just fun.
I actually dont have a problem with hunting at all as long as the animals are consumed for food.
Business frats = useless at our university
It's the real frats that get you your network here, and yes I think it helps tons
Does Skull and bones count as a fraternity? what about Iluminati or freemasons?
Bohemian Grove Club or bust.
bows and toes for all y'all
I'm filling up some trash cans with freezing water now
My social fraternity didn't really help me with recruiting, per se (I never really reached out to alumni for help/guidance), but I did grow more interested in finance because thats what the older guys in the fraternity were doing. As an analyst I have been proactive about helping current brothers with the recruitment process (at least those who reach out to me). It's what you make of it. But you should join a fraternity because it's fun, not because it will land you a job.
Are business fraternities worth it? (Originally Posted: 07/18/2011)
So, fellow monkeys, I go to a rather large, heavily greek, state school. I will be a sophomore this coming fall and most of my friends are rushing social fraternities, however, I consider myself more career-based and their more of the party-every-night type. I have a professional business fraternity on campus that is well-respected.
Are these types of fraternities worth it if I want to go into IBD or high-finance? Would this help me towards my career compared to a social frat? I'd rather not get answers like "find your best fit" blah blah blah because I know people in both and I would get along fine with either.
Don't want to be that guy but try searching for this before posting.
^^word.
there have been several posts about this and the topic has been discussed to exhaustion.
in case you're too lazy to search, i believe the general consensus was "no".
Like all social fraternities/sororities, business fraternity reputation varies completely by school. Don't necessarily take advice at face value from random people on WSO since at the poster's school the business fraternities might have just been a bunch of nerdy business students while at another poster's school one or two of the business fraternities might have been highly competitive and with driven, successful people in it. Neither poster is more right than the other.
Though in answer to your last paragraph, having been active in a social fraternity and a business fraternity, I will say that probably neither will help you in terms of being on your resume. The only way fraternities, social or business, will help is if there are alumni from those organizations that are in banking now and are willing to help.
I'll sum up all the other posts on the topic you would have found if you'd searched:
1.) Business fraternities vary greatly from campus to campus - some are totally worthless, some are full of go-getters that will make a great network post-graduation. 2.) Definitely worth it if the alternative is no fraternity at all. You'll be glad for the network you'll build and the friends you'll make. 3.) Don't go boasting around campus that you're "in a fraternity" when you're really only in the business frat. You'll look like a tool.
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