Comments (66)

May 17, 2011

"Hi Jeff,
Everyone was very impressed with your interviews today. We are excited
to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria
Merrill Lynch as an analyst next summer."

Comes to mind.

May 17, 2011

Yes, it is an at will employment. They can pull your offer at any time and you can leave at anytime.

May 17, 2011

Even if You signed it?

May 17, 2011

They can "pull the offer" or "terminate you" for whatever reason or no reason at all. They can even fire you on your first day, doesn't matter. Nothing you can do about it.

May 24, 2011
CompBanker:

They can "pull the offer" or "terminate you" for whatever reason or no reason at all. They can even fire you on your first day, doesn't matter. Nothing you can do about it.

It depends on the country you are working in. Employment is not "at will" in many jurisdictions with regards to the employer, and in quite a lot of countries a formally extended offer would be legally binding, so it would be against the law to "pull the offer" for no reason.

May 17, 2011
May 24, 2011

Unlikely, although some BBs in the crisis shifted some new hires to capital markets. The cuts now are not that serious though. And analysts are cheap. They are rarely the subject of layoffs (except at UBS).

May 24, 2011

It does happen, depending on circumstance. It's true to say that analysts are cheap, but I've had friends who've had their start dates pushed back indefinitely and people who've had offers withdrawn (that was more in Big 4 accounting though).

May 24, 2011

I haven't heard of anything like that happening, but wait until you are working there for sure.

May 24, 2011

UBS already did.

May 24, 2011

link?

May 24, 2011

This definitely happened during the downturn. There were very qualified people who were told not to show up on day 1, particularly at some of the big NYC banks. Not much you can do about it though -- you're at the mercy of the market.

May 17, 2011

It's highly unlikely unless you do something incredibly stupid or there is an financial exigency for the firm. But yes, it theoretically can happen, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you are an underrepresented minority.

At-will means at-will. However, if they fire you without cause after three months of work, you do get to collect unemployment insurance. Typically your signing bonus contractually vests after a year.

May 24, 2011

They could pull a JPM and "temporarily reassign" you to private wealth or commercial banking. Probably better than the alternatives. You have a valid concern though...

May 24, 2011

re '01-'03, some boutiques did rescind offers in '01 but i don't believe any of the bulge brackets did, at least in significant numbers (possibly for west coast offers given the tech bust - i don't recall). however, some of the banks did begin laying off right out of training or shortly thereafter. the downturn was already obvious for the '02 and '03 recruiting years so those classes were much smaller.

May 24, 2011

I haven't heard about it happening to anyone i know, but honestly, I constantly wonder about the strength of my offer and whether I'll really have the opportunity to join in July.

May 24, 2011

Do you guys think hiring has been reduced to the point (for summer 09 analysts) that the analyst class is bare bones enough to survive reasonably intact?

May 24, 2011

I think it partially depends on how well your bank, as well as your specific group is doing. A better capitalized bank has a bit of a cushion to ride out the storm with less layoffs, aiming to capture more deals and league table cred when the market finally turns.

Although the downturn was factored into the # of offers given out for the upcoming analyst class, most banks made decisions before the crisis turned into an absolute circus. I think there will be some rescinded offers here and there, but as there is nothing you can do about it, try to enjoy your senior year and hope for the best.

Does anyone have more details on how this was handled during the previous downturn?

May 17, 2011

For instance, you have bachelor degree, studying m.s. and received an offer for 1st tear analyst at bb before m.s. graduation and starting date on summer. But, suddenly, you don't receive m.s. Will they cancek offer, if you tell them about your problems?

May 24, 2011

Swiss Re is not anywhere near the bad positions of bs, leh, merrill, etc. I know friends whose offers were rescinded for BS and LEH, but Swiss Re is not going to fail. And besides that, the new economic reality and their new expectations was probably already factored in by the time they made you the offer last nov.

Plus they are unlikely to axe recent graduates from a newly started "like FIG" division. (e.g. then why start it now?)

I am a betting man, and I would say the chance of your FT offer being rescinded this late is 2-3%.

p.s.- will you work in that easter egg building in london or are you at armonk?

May 24, 2011

Thanks for the good news.
I'm in Armonk, which kinda sucks just because its outside NYC.

Thanks for the response, hope you aren't still at work

May 24, 2011

Definitely agree with Philosopher

May 17, 2011

as in, you won't be receiving it at all? umm...pretty sure they hired you with the expectation of finishing that whole degree thing.

is this real life.

May 24, 2011

Wow, this is a flashback to 2008!

I'd be skeptical of banks cutting jobs on the same scale as before but some cuts are a possibility. Can you post the article you were referring to?

May 24, 2011

Yes banks can rescind offers (see all those poor Bear-turned JPM-but-thrown-elsewhere-not-banking-or-s&t, or Lehman analysts to be).

Is it common? Well if it does happen, it won't be of the same magnitude of 2008.

I do remember reading job cut articles too - but it was for specific groups (like commodities and prop trading) or back office.

May 24, 2011

Here is the article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487035...
Hard to say whether they're making a mountain out of a molehill, or if they even know what they're talking about. It's still nerve-wracking though.

My offer is in investment banking, not sales and trading, so hopefully that makes a bit of a positive difference.

May 24, 2011

Congrats on the offer, I am a little envious of your position. But what are you going to do if you don't accept, apply to other places? Even if you do, won't you face the same problems again?

May 24, 2011

good point.

I was thinking of applying to consulting positions, but who's to say that those jobs won't have the same issues.

That would actually be interesting to know: does banking or consulting offer more job security?

May 24, 2011

I would say consulting. Even if the economy tanks, you can just "consult" on how to get companies out of trouble. Then again, that's a pure guess, but I'd imagine they'd have an easier time, just like lawyers.

May 24, 2011

Yes, banks can rescind offers. That phone call in March '09 was really fun...

May 24, 2011
MikeMoney:

Yes, banks can rescind offers. That phone call in March '09 was really fun...

Did this actually happen to you?

May 24, 2011

You can get fired at any time, but look at it this way: if a bank's looking to cut overhead, firing 1st year analysts is not the efficient way to do it. Contrary to what we all love to believe, analysts and associates are relatively cheap labor. My bank took the sword to the director levels mostly. The only times I saw analysts get laid off were when the group they were working in blew up. Which to be fair did happen a lot, but nobody blamed the analyst for that.

May 24, 2011

Also, relax. Your aren't going to get fired. Enjoy senior year~

May 17, 2011

I can receive m.s. it next year.

May 24, 2011

I haven't heard personally of anyone I know in b-school getting that call since the summer ended.

However, if I had to speculate I'd say MER offers are worthless and will be called back and maybe some MS offers. GS offers are probably safe since they didn't make them until October (had more information about how bad the market is before they made offers).

For the commercial banks, I'd say BofA people are safe, JPM people are safe, Citi may not be safe but I'd highly doubt they rescind. Wachovia....a buddy still in b-school got a call saying his bonus wouldbe paid at first pay check and he should be on the lookout for another job but he hasn't been officially rescinded yet.

The europeans.... CS and UBS should be fine and won't rescind. The folks are Barclays/LEH will probably be fine as well.

Just my thoughts. Anyone else think differently?

May 24, 2011

Distressed,

I have heard nothing about offers being rescinded; I honestly don't think we will hear about such outside of Wachovia, Merrill, and maybe Citi.

IBnutz,

I agree with some stuff:

I'm pretty sure MER offers will not be honored, and I believe some other people said they had talked to MER senior bankers who felt the same way.

The Euro bank offers are probably safe.

The Wachovia offers, I am fairly certain, are useless as I don't think Wells expressed a serious interest in investment banking.

BofA and JPM: I would imagine are probably safe right now. I still don't understand why BofA recruited and actually hired during fall FT recruiting when there was a MER summer analyst class, but w/e.

Citi: I would be uncomfortable with the firm, but who knows.

I'm not quite sure why you think Morgan Stanley is a possibility though; it had its bout with death, but any particular reason?

May 24, 2011

no particular reason with MS other than a lack of knowledge about their process and I don't know anyone I trust with good insight over there.

i just figured since they were a pure play and they are switching over to bank holding company and they made their offers long before that happened or even before the market took a real turn downward. whereas GS waited (as usual) to make their offers until after the market started tanking.

just a thought... good discussion here.... anyone else have an opinion?

May 24, 2011

I am a first year at a top 10 b-school and none of the 2nd years I know have had their offers pulled. This includes 3 people that interned at Lehman. All three of their offers were honored by Barclays. I did hear about a 1st year post-mba associate that was layed off 3 months after starting.

May 24, 2011

i know ms waited a bit of time before giving out their offers (for analysts, i know nothing about associates), so they probably had a decent idea of what kind of business environment they were looking at. they also severely pared back recruiting for non-summers fall fulltime and didn't even come to campus at my target.

so hopefully they won't be rescinding. but it'll all depend on how bad it gets obviously.

May 24, 2011

i'm thinking MS will probably be fine then if what you're saying is true (which I have no reason to believe it isn't).

I would say those people with offers from MER should be looking for other work after b-school. I know those people think that MER will be in charge of the IB transformation, but the thing is, those people weren't apart of what made MER great prior to the transition so they will probably get axed before starting. Although, I do know one person who is going to MER and that person got their signing bonus in full so thats a good sign for them.

Can anyone else think of a reason why any other bank would rescind MBA offers? I can't. My bank hasn't even laid off any first years yet and they would let us go before jacking with an incoming guy.

May 17, 2011

I would get really excited about your job this summer and offer to cancel your MS to start a year early. This, of course, is assuming that you were accepted in the first place. If you lied about something as big as that on your resume, you are done for. If the school made the offer but pulled it for some non-egregious reason, that makes some mild fudge factor understandable.

May 17, 2011

I''m getting the feeling you lied about getting into a MSF program.

May 17, 2011

In my country m.s. takes 2 years.i had problems in the end of year 2, so I will graduate ms next year.
It's not MSF, it is just master degree in economics.
My offer suggests to start 1st year analyst this summer.

May 17, 2011

If he lied about an acceptance, I'm really glad I'm not in OP's shoes right now. There's no saving him- or at least no FT offer from that firm or any other firm he lied to on his resume for that matter.

May 17, 2011

So you are doing a two-year MS but lied about the fact you are graduating this summer to get hired full-time???

Another black-balling situation. Then again, if this hasn't already been caught with your background check, my Cal Tech Math PhD replete with my 4.7 GPA makes me a perfect fit for your firm.

    • 1
May 17, 2011

Did you lie to them or not? You just screwed up 2nd semester and can't graduate now? If that is the case, you need to go running to HR and explain the situation, so they can hire you on a Bachelor's pay scale. It will be embarassing- and give them an excuse to pull the offer, but it will probably be salvaged if you act now- assuming you didn't lie to them about anything or knew you wouldn't be graduating in advance of your final round interview. They will want to see transcripts and speak with a dean or two.

May 17, 2011

he lied lmao. Tell them you fucked up and won't be able to graduate....its the only thing you can do.

May 17, 2011

JPM pulled the offer they extended to a poor guy because they couldnt check his background just because they were lazy. There was a huge discussion on WSO on his situation - I looked for it, but it has been removed it was a couple of years back.

May 17, 2011

I had to graduate this summer and start full-time further.
But I had some promblems at the university and will graduate next summer.
So, my question was should I tell the bank about my problems or start working without saying anything?

May 18, 2011

Usually contract states that they can fire you at their will... (It's in your contract!)

May 18, 2011

Head-slap. Tell them the truth. Especially if there is a pay differential for your MS. Technically, lying about a graduate degree to get a pay raise constitutes criminal fraud. They may not prosecute you for it, but it is a good way to get fired.

They hired you for your work, not your degree. You need to call HR, explain the situation, say you still want to work for them, but will have to finish your graduate degree part time. 80% chance they'll mull it over for a few days and decide to keep you- just with a pay rate for undergrads rather than guys with MSs. It will be a huge weight off your shoulders; the truth- when you have nothing serious to hide- is healthy and a huge relief.

May 18, 2011

There is no difference in pay between degrees

May 18, 2011

You still need to let them know. This information will show up in your background check and FINRA application. The sooner you do all of this, the better.

May 18, 2011

They checked me before signing an offer.
Shoukd I tell it Director or HR?

May 18, 2011

Well, you will have to state, under penalty of perjury for your securities license, that you graduated from that school. So unless you want to perjure yourself- and you will eventually be found out- you need to tell the truth.

Start with your existing HR contact on this- the lady who called or emailed you about your hire. I think you do have to let them know. Downplay downplay downplay, but don't make this look like it was expected. Worst comes to worst, you will spend one more semester at school and line up a job with a different but likely similar firm. 70-80% chance, however, that they allow you to start work and finish your last course part-time.

May 18, 2011

Person from the bank advises me to start worjing, show my self and then say about it(((

May 18, 2011
pizhon:

Person from the bank advises me to start worjing, show my self and then say about it(((

that would be a dumb idea

May 18, 2011
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May 18, 2011
May 24, 2011