WSO members,
I have been offered a summer analyst trading position at Citigroup in London. I understand that when it comes to desk allocation the needs of the bank are fulfilled first but I have been encouraged to state my desk preferences. I assume if my preferences coincide with Citi's desk needs then I have a better chance in getting my preferred desk. The problem is with my limited exposure to different desk and asset classes beyond my wider reading I am not in the best position to make an informed decision on my desk choice. I do trade a very small amount of money in equities but asides from that my knowledge of different asset classes and desk is very basic (We're talking ft, investor mags and the occasional chapters of a few investment books). So I was wondering what you advice would be as regards picking a desk as I really don't have much time to do my own research with exams coming up. I'm most concerned with the expected performance in the future of the desk and how interesting the desk is (I recognise this differs from person to person). The desk option are : Commodities, Credit Markets, Equities , Futures, CitiFX, Municipal Securities, Prime Finance, Private Investor Products, Rates, Securitized Markets and Capital Markets Origination. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Kind Regards,
Jack
My basic advice would be to go with something that you have the most knowledge on as well as something that sounds the most interesting to you also
I highly doubt they are expecting you to walk in there and be the next Warren Buffet and know the ins and outs of every desk
Judging from what you have said, if it was me, I would go with equities as you mention you trade at a personal level so that is probably what you have the most insight into :)
congrats by the way!
Yer I agree with you that I should go with what I have the most knowledge on and I am definitely stipulating equities as one of my preferences, however, a few of my cousins work in BBs in equities in London and are rather pessimistic about it's future. I hear that quite a few BB's have shut down their equity derivatives desk in the last 5-10 years. I know that people have mixed views about the future of equities both positive and negative but I would like to learn more about other asset classes and make an informed decision on my other class preferences.
fair enough then, I wasnt privy to that information!
Im sure if you performed well in equities though that you wouldnt have a problem being moved across to another desk if the equities desk was to close but I understand where youre coming from!
ive pm'd you by the way
edit: apologies, i think i sent an email, not a pm
I've pm'd you. Long message but I think it answers what you are asking.
i know rates and fx are good, and i know they're big in mbs along with bac not sure about credit products, but they're a monster in IG underwriting Muni's is biggest on the street
First of all if decide if you want to trade, because some of those desks are not trading. Then I would focus on what you like more, what you're most interested in. Are you more of a macro or a micro guy? When you read the FT what articles do you read in full, the ones about political elections, central banks, unemployment or company results? That will help you decide between FICC and Eq. If you go for FI, I would go for the broader products, Rates or FX, I think they will close fewer doors for the future in case you decide to change, however that's just a personal opinion.
Yerp I want to trade. I decided to go for FX as my first choice as I think is an exciting area and Credit as my 2nd with emphasis on distressed debt if possible. Third choice I went with rates. Time will tell, I doubt I'll even end up with rotations on any of those desks.
I just want to point out that credit trading is much less macro than Rates and FX, just so you know what to expect.
Whenever I hear of people choosing equities I automatically think of 'Equities in Dallas'..
Hence it not being one of my choices!
Do you know how the Citi grad program is structured? If not, find out ... then you'll realise why your question is a dumb one, brother.
I recognise that the grad program is rotational across most of the different desks. I assume that what you're implying is the desk in which you intern is irrelevant as you when you get a job offer onto the grad scheme you are not pigeon holed onto as desk for 18months. All I can say to your comment is I don't think it's a bad ideas to think about what desk I ultimately want to work on, network, make a good impression on that desk whilst on my internship. This will ultimately mean if I get a grad job, when I do my desk rotation on my preferred desk I will already have established relationships and be that much more likely to be hired onto that desk. Forward thinking - Benjamin Franklin knows where it's at, 'fail to prepare, prepare to fail'.
the irony in your "prepare to fail quote" is that you should've been networking with the desks you wanted to join for the summer to make sure you get placed on those. If you had networked with the FX/FI guys, you'd definitely be placed there this summer, and could do all that preparing that you wanted to...
there might still be time, but you should really think about reaching out to the desks you want to join and express your interest.
Maximus Decimus I'm aware the credit trading is much less macro. I'm interested in both so I'm thinking learn by experience which I'm enjoy most.
leveRAGE - you're right. Definitely would have been a great idea to network with the desk I want to be on during my internship. The thing is that of my 5 interviewers 3 were in equities and 2 in commodities. Any advice on how to network into FX having no contact with the FX guys?
Yeah-I would email any contacts you have and see if they know anyone who is in FX/could find someone in FX for you. a lot of times many people will have gone through SA/Analyst programs together and have friends who ended up in FX or some other group and they could either introduce you or you could just get their name, email them, introduce yourself, express interest, and ask for a couple minutes of their time to chat. might still be worth it...who knows when desk placements are actually made.
Just because he trades equities doesn't mean he should do equities. Everyone trades equities that likes finance FFS. I also doubt it would provide you with a great chance to rotate into other products compared to other desks. I would go for what you enjoy, but not at a desk that's dying a slow death from automation.
boggles my mind how all people who hear "equity trading" automatically just assume its all cash equity trading, not understanding how many more desks there are on the equity trading floor. Oh well, I guess liar's poker kinda ruined that.
Exactly. There are many desks in equities besides trading stocks. And some of them are actually pretty cool.
I'm not assuming cash equity trading at all so don't assume that. I know a lot of people who have been getting laid off in all areas of equity, including but not limited to Cash, Derivatives, LatAm, RiskArb, etc. The only area with growth right now that I've seen is on the electronic side.
Just because I'm trying to warn the OP with a hard truth doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. In my opinion in 10 years you'll see a lot of these guys in the products mentioned sitting together in one consolidated equity trading floor. No disrespect and I'm not sure whether you work in it now or not, but the OP should know what he's getting into as this is what I've experienced first hand at a BB.
Thanx for all the advice. All taken on bard.
Anyone care to mention the best desks at citi??
Citi S&T -- Strongest Desks (Originally Posted: 02/05/2015)
I would appreciate any information regarding what products Citi is well known for, and what desks are relatively smaller compared with other places.
Best FX desk on the street
thanks..any other strong desks/desks to avoid? i know program is rotational and heard about solid FI and great FX as you said. heard they also picked up CS and DB commodity/energy desks respectively....can anyone speak to the potential there?
-
FX spot, options, short term interest rate trading, municipal bonds, structured credit (CLO, sales, etc.)
Is Citi munis really a strong desk? any chance to move to the buy side with that experience?
avoid equities
FX and structured credit.
anybody know much about the cit s&t quant track? like how the day to for a general trader vs quant trader vs quant analyst is?
Emerging Markets.
For your assistance: http://www.coalition.com/ext/assets/investment/CoalitionLeagueTableFY14…
There are not many muni hedge funds.
If you're interested in Macro Citi Swaps is probably the best on the street. Other good desks are: STIRT (like someone above mentioned), EM (Credit and FX), FX Options.
Citi energy trading recruits separately from the rest of Citi s&t in nyc.
FX and rates in general focusing on FX options and STIRT. There may be a few others as well but I'm not too sure. A few yeras ago I would have avoided their commodities desk in London but I'm not sure how things are now.
Regarding top desks be careful of the best ones out there such as FX options, you have a higher chance of not making it through. From my knowledge their junior most recruits come with 1-2 years relevant experience so if you are joining straight out of uni it's going to be super high expectations and hence more chance of a screw up.
FX is good as is em. Avoid their HY desk at all costs
Rank trading desks in Citigroup (Originally Posted: 11/01/2009)
I accepted the offer for Citi S&T FT. And I am very sure I want to do trading. Can someone share some understanding of what are the best trading desks in Citi for a beginner? I do not have preference for Equity or FI. Thanks!
x
What about FX and Commodities desks in Citi?
Aren't they getting rid of their commodities trading arm?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e2c2bd02-b29e-11de-b7d2-00144feab49a.html
They are a big flow shop, most outstanding desk is probably fx.
I rank FX best amongst there desks
they sold Phibro. still have an in-house group that isn't the hedge fund Hall ran.
their raided my shop in 2008 and hired a lot away
they still have the normal Citigroup shop that does mostly customer hedging.
Bump - now that we are 4 years later, are there any updates to this specific topic? Anybody that can comment on changes that have transpired on the desks. Obviously the industry is in major flux.
i think they are still very strong in FX (behind DB) and Commods. Pretty good in rates and credits as well, but 2nd to JPM and GS in terms of FI. (IMO)
FYI much of their commodities trading has been relocated to Houston - doesn't mean they aren't very skillful, but that is representative of broader industry trends (and/ or getting out of the business of commods other than futures exposure altogether)
fx and commodities
I thought Citi was a fairly solid Top 5 player across the board for S&T.
Unless you're going to MS or maybe GS, I would avoid equities anywhere. That is if you want to maximize your pay and job security that's out of your control.
Citi has an exceptional FX service. Their in house trading platform is simple to use and I believe it gives really competitive rates. I would rate Citi better than DB for FX. On the equities and FI division instead it is not a major leader like the other banks.
I am also starting Citi FT S&T and know I want to do trading as well. I would like to know what the best desks are coming into the summer this year. I am mostly interested in FI and have an interest in Mortgage desk, FX, and Municipals. I want to combine what I really want and what the best opportunities will be for me at Citi.
^ You sound weird
Citi S&T SA Desk Recommendation (Originally Posted: 03/24/2014)
Situation: - I was looking for the oppts. for IBD SA. but didn't get it. (I was too naive and arrogant, thinking that I know IBD based on previous IBD internship at one of top 3 firms (GS/JPM/MS). turned out I knew nothing.) - Instead, I got other offers from other firms and finally chose the one from Citi S&T. (Great people / no knowledge of products or desks though)
Q1. Heard 3 chances will be given to SAs (rotation). Any desk recommendation with a couple of reasons? - Econ/Social Science background, not sure about trading (cuz I don't know a thing) but definitely not Sales.
Q2. Thinking to re-apply for IBD FT positions in late Summer or in Fall. Let's assume that I get a FT offer from Citi and don't get the offer from IBD. As a contingency plan, among those you recommended for Q1, which desk would be (relatively) relevant to IBD? (Heard anything related to structured.. FI like CB would give some relevant skill sets)
Any thoughts will be appreciated.
--Additional information--
FYI, product areas that I can choose for the rotation. - Credit Markets - Citi Emerging Markets - Equities - Futures - CitiFX - Municipal Securities - Prime Finance - Private Investor Products - Rates - Relationship Management - Securitized Markets - Citi Velocity
Which location?
But i suggest spend at least 1 rotation on a sales desk
@Dawg-nuts NY office - 390 GW Mind if ask why you suggested it?
Go for structuring desks as you'll be doing a bit more excel work; I'd imagine that might be more relevant for ibd (and you can claim this when trying to switch; the reason why you chose structuring, to keep fresh on excel work). Cash equities will help you with stock pitches and whatnot which may be relevant for IBD; you can also build up a legit model during your stock pitch project and use that as an example during future ibd interviews. Otherwise, the important part will be knowing the bigwigs who want to keep you at the firm (given you've impressed them) and letting them know of your interests so they can go knock on IBD's door for ft
Thanks! That was helpful.
Given that you want to go into IBD try to gun for equity rotations, and if not credit. Like chapelthriller said, structuring/strategy desks would be ideal, Desks I would be more useful go for off the top of my head would be equity strategy, equity structuring, equity research sales (a lot of interaction with research and access to their models and the ability to put valuations etc into practise), structured credit and CSS (similair to structured credit but sit witht he traders).
@"IMFUTURE" But, there's one concern, as Citi's equity desk is not particularly strong among other desks (at least based on previous postings). Any thoughts?
It doesn't matter that Citi isn't a top 5 player in equities. You want to go into I-banking so the equity division within S&T makes the most sense & will be the most relevant and useful when applying for I-banking. Put it this way : fx is Citi's strongest asset class but how is that going to get you any closer to i-banking. It's too far removed from companies and the skills you will learn there won't be as transferable to I-banking!
Do equity sector specialists, HY credit desk analyst (formerly CSS), and one more choice. Last year the newly formed HY credit publishing research group was spun out from S&T (majority but not all of the former CSS group) and still used S&T SA program for people. See if that's still the case. Otherwise just pick a 3rd.
Go with credit or equity.
If you're open to considering a macro oriented desk then you can't go with FX, Rates or Emerging Markets.
You have recommendations for credit, equity, rates, FX, and EM.... Wtf is left to do in reality???
I'd avoid Citi Equities....
And why is that?
Ive been reading these posts for years and its funny how people come in thinking how they will be able to lateral to something else what often ends up happening is they learn to like the job and stay with it or they hate the job and get out of the industry entirely.
It annoys me when people like the OP get opportunities when they clearly have no desire for the position offered. Figure 60-75 hours your first 2 years if its something you dont want to do its going to be a very miserable experience.
Instead of focusing on which desk will allow you to lateral to IBD think about which desks you would LIKE to work on for the next 2 years.
Great advice! Thanks -
Strongest desks at Citi London (Originally Posted: 03/16/2012)
Hi everybody..
Was wondering if I could get some opinions on the stronger desks at Citi London. I am not asking for best desks etc. I am just trying to find the desks where the most talented people are that would be good mentors. I have a list of interests and want to try and match those to possible strongest desks.
I have heard fixed name is the stronger side. How is rates?
Thanks guys.
Brazilian Walnut is pretty strong…3684 Janka hardness rating. Not sure if Citi London has that desk though.
Rich Mahogany is pretty prestigious…for best effect, pair with many leather bound books.
Whichever one is making money.
You should try to get a taste for all products.
Basically this is what I am trying to figure out...
FX and Rates desks are very good
Thanks for the input. Anybody have a comment on Citi London's mortgage desk?
.
Rates and FX are really really good, I second that wholeheartedly (all thanks to Andy Morton). And no, don't even think about mtges in London, that's just a waste...
How come?
Are there any other desks you would stick high on your list there?
'Cause it's, generally, a much smaller, much less liquid mkt. It has certainly recovered a lot since the crisis, especially UK RMBS, but the whole mkt is rather puny, especially vs the US.
As to the other desks, I don't really know of anything worthwhile. Generally, if it's a desk that eventually reports to Andy, it's bound to be a good place to be.
Thanks Martin. This Andy obviously has a very good reputation.
Best Desks at Citi (Originally Posted: 06/04/2009)
What is Citi S&T known for? What desks are considered to be the strongest?
Bump
Citi quant is strong, as is the options market making platform.
bump
Citi & UBS S&T - strongest desks? (Originally Posted: 09/23/2010)
As per the title - was wondering if anybody had any insight into the S&T businesses of these two firms. Thank you.
UBS- FX and equities (weak in commodities, mortgages, and I think fixed income in general)
Citi-Equities, FX, not sure about other fixed income products, but assume that they are average/above average in those as well.
prime brokerage FTW.
Thanks for the info. Any additional commentary would be welcomed.
Citi has a strong Municipals desk.
UBS - Equity Derivatves desk
Citi is generally good for fixed income, esp rates, fx, emerging markets. (top 3). 2nd highest earner in fixed income after goldman. not so strong for equities, but is in top 6 i think. UBS is good for fx and equity (cash and derivatives)
Great, thanks all.
Citi Trading Desks (Originally Posted: 04/07/2009)
I'm doing a summer internship at NY Citi in S&T and was wondering which desks are good (FT offers / cool people / substantial tasks).
equities or fixed income
Anyone have any opinions about their S&T in Houston?
How does Citi's S&T rank relative to S&T at other firms like GS, JPM, Barcap etc.
They always have openings in Houston because they hire people from the East Coast who work there for about a year and quit. It's just too damn hot & humid!!
But what a great way to get experience. It is easier to land a job there, plain & simple. I am a non-target everything and had interviews with DB, Merrill, Citgo etc. for Associate level Trading positions. I was offered DB and decided not to take it because I accepted a Trading position elsewhere.
Citi FX Desk (Originally Posted: 03/06/2010)
Anyone have info or opinion on what an Asociate level trading position is like on the FX desk at Citi? What is the reputation?
bump!
Depends on the area of FX
-FX Research -FX Sales -FX Spot Trading -FX Vanilla Options Trading -FX Exotic Options Trading -FX Structured Derivatives
Spot Trading info would be great!
bump
In general, if you'll never have sales people who cover just "spot" FX, it makes zero sense to have one person trying to sell EUR/USD to hedge fund clients. So typically a sales person will sell all kinds of things: FX structured notes,FX options, FX swaps, etc.
So I assume your referring to a trading position. If the role is pigeon-holed to spot FX trading, you are dispensable because there are a million guys who can make markets in something as liquid and simple as spot FX.
Not much more I can say on the matter. Is the role really just spot fx trading?...
Prop Spot FX, no real market making.
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