Controversial Take

I've been thinking about this for some time and I want to share my thoughts on the corporation that is Black Lives Matter, the movement, and the division it's causing. I am already preparing for this thread to get de-bumped the minute I post it, so have fun while it lasts.

I am a mixed man. Half black, half white, white mom, black dad. If you don't believe me, DM me and I'll send you a picture of the brown hands I'm typing with right now. So, I believe I have a different POV for this topic compared to others who enjoy dog whistling and the like. Now hear me out...

1) BLM was created in 2013 - did racism/police brutality/shootings begin in 2013?

1a) Black and Latino people, men especially, have been killed/have been targets of the police for decades

2) (this argument is used by the "all lives" crowd, but it's true) The constant black on black crime. It's absolutely ridiculous and over what exactly? Beef, a woman, drugs, turf, looking at someone the wrong way? Retarded. I mean look at how many people were shot in NYC and CHI over the weekend, Where is BLM at? Sitting outside City Hall?

3) When have black lives not mattered? My life has always mattered, and so has my mom's, dad's, everyone else's. I've never thought otherwise.

4) BLM and the media are trying to make it seem that America is one big shit show with race as the biggest issue ever, and while it is an issue, it certainly is not to the degree to which they are covering it. Republicans are not racist. Democrats are not racist. Both parties have racists that serve them and support them - that is the biggest takeaway, there are turds on each side of the aisle.

5) Why isn't BLM going out in the inner city to educate the minorities on how to slowly build a better life? Small steps like career resources, volunteer pipeline, school tutors/mentors, positive neighborhood gatherings, bringing together people of different backgrounds to peacefully talk to one another? Instead of cancelling everything and silencing those who dare to disagree, especially a fellow POC

6) BLM is political as fuck, it's a corporation now. And if you can't see that, then congrats - you've been brainwashed. It is no longer about black lives, I would actually like to see the amount of black people who really support BLM. All I see is a bunch of white people I went to school with continually posting on social media about this and that, but exactly are you doing besides virtue signaling? Get your ass to the poverty stricken areas and change things at ground zero.

7) If you don't agree with BLM, you are a racist, Trump supporter (wtf?), a nazi, or in my case, an oreo. Like I'm sorry I was taught to see the whole picture and I can see past your bullshit. And when did I proclaim my political support? They love to literally fly to conclusions that justify whatever they are trying to prove that day. I agree that black lives matter and we have been through more than other minorities, but to shove that in everyone's face day in and day out does no good. What they should be doing is telling the black youth that their life DOES MATTER, regardless of circumstance. Poor or rich, smart or dumb, your life matters, little one.

8) Their end goal appears to be world domination. I mean what is the goal? To end racism forever? Because that is completely impossible. I don't know if they know that, but it's common sense. I want equality just as much as the next person, but how does forcing everyone to conform to your movement make sense? You are literally bound to push people away.

I just wanted to share my thoughts as an independently thinking man, who happens to be black. Skin color means nothing when addressing facts. I do not hate how I look, I actually am extremely proud to be a bi-racial man (shout out Saint Martin de Porres). I probably missed some things as I was casually writing this while drinking my coffee, so if anyone has other examples of how the BLM corporation is whack, let's hear them.

Also, there is no need to be disgustingly rude to each other, I already know the thread will be de-bumped, but let's not get it deleted. So save all shitty takes for other threads. If you disagree, don't throw MS, voice yourself in a civil discussion.

 
Prospect in IB - Gen:
No, to end white people. BLM is literally a black supremacist organization.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3og0INyCmHlNylks9O/giphy.gif" alt="face palm" />

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

Except BLM has loads and loads of sorry white people in its ranks

 
Prospect in IB - Gen:
No, to end white people. BLM is literally a black supremacist organization.

Buddy, you've NEVER met black supremacists.

I once got confronted by them for just walking around and let me tell you what, they're not your typical empty-minded liberals with good intentions but no brains.

 
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A few things here. -- I hate to say it but based on what I'm reading in your post it looks like you haven't done as much research as you're giving yourself credit for. -- Tying support of "BLM" to the organization itself rather than the sentiment around progressive justice in itself shows how little work you've done.

1 Trayvon Martin's shooting and the concurrent popularity of social media is what gave rise to BLM. -- Rodney King's beating sparked a movement but there was no social media or organization leader to define it in the way BLM currently has. the stain of racism in American policing has existed since the end of slavery and the the beginnings of the modern police system. -- This a core part of BLM's argument and any basic research into the movement and the issues being discussed reveals that.

1A I'm confused here -- you're admitting there's a problem. Are you saying folks should just accept injustice because it's been around for decades?

2 You have to remember BLM is about fighting what many perceive as racially motivated injustice and violence - not necessarily about crime. Black on black crime is never racially motivated -- its simply crime. (driven by poverty, desperation, other social factors, etc.)

3 The messaging is clearly aimed at a justice system that many perceive to not value black lives lost at the hands of police as highly of others. Not really sure what you thought you were getting at here.

4 Many BLM activists are actively anti-Biden and understand the racism that exists in the mainstream democratic party.

5 Much of BLM's recent focus has been on conversations around defunding police budgets in favor of education/social services in an effort to actually reduce the root causes of crime rather than spend more to only police it.

6-8 Is just you giving opinion on what you've perceived, nothing to say there

 

I have a big issue with your points about number 2 and number 5. It is the same reason that I think BLM will not be as effective as other people think/hope.

The point about number 2 being irrelevant to the purpose of the movement is not taking a holistic perspective. As you mentioned, BLM wants to remove the racial and prejudice thinking in the policing and justice system. Great! I support that. I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t support that.

Here’s the problem. The organization fails to look at it from the other shoes. The police are well aware that the black population make up almost 50% of all violent crime (whatever the exact statistic it’s close to that). Even if a majority of that comes from non-racial, black on black crime, the police are inherently going to be more cautious and nervous around those who can be apart of that statistic. Therefore, the OP is right in the sense that it has to start at ground zero and the high statistic of violent crime has to decrease and then the police won’t perceive every POC as a “threat” or whatever they claim now.

In terms of number 5, I think it’s a great idea to use some resources to educate the minority communities to advance their culture and opportunities for success. However, defunding the police is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. By defunding the police, you’re taking away their budgets for things like training so that they can learn from their mistakes and learn how to appropriately handle various situations without using lethal force which seems to be a bit of an issue. They need more training and knowledge not less of it.

 

Some of your points indicate to me in a way that your perception/understanding of the BLM movement isn't actually aligned with the core principles of the movement. Here are my responses to your points below as a black man entering the work force (not that it matters). Ofc feel free to respond.

Your first points (1 & 1a) both signal to me, from the most rational perspective, that something needs to change. "did racism/police brutality start in '13? No, but if those things are still prevalent, should not that change? "black & latino ppl have been targets of police for decades" should that not change as well? Part of the BLM movement is recognizing these social factors that are severely affecting black & hispanic men & women and driving that change. There is nothing inherently malice about wanting to change this.

2) To me, the idea of black on black crime is some what of a diversion, while you may not have meant it in that way. like of course in a predominately black community, where there is crime, the majority of it will be against other black people. The same goes for white communities where there is crime..,. yet no one says white on white crime... there is crime in nearly every single community. Lastly the BLM movement is not about individual level civilian crimes at the local level.

3) When have black lives not mattered? My friend this country has a history of showing in many ways that black lives have not mattered, especially not at the same level of white lives. *Not even including slavery", Jim Crow, Segregation, Redlining in real estate, discrimination in personal banking, access to capital, diverting funding from black communities/education, much of this within the last 60 yrs to present day. There are really so many examples, I don't think I need to go much further, we both know history.

4) Don't totally have a response. I think race is an issue, but I don't disagree w/ anything else here.

5) I don't know every single aspect of how BLM gets involved in communities at the local level, but there are plenty of smaller separate organizations that support the BLM movement who get involved at the local level to help their communities in the ways you've mentioned. Everyone has a role to play and BLM as a movement at the broader level has its own.

6) Is BLM political? to a degree yes, I don't think its wrong to say it can be politicized, but I think the fundamental principles of BLM isn't very political. In the most literal sense, BLM is looking to ensure that black lives matter in every social aspect of life, especially in regards to how they are treated by police, by politicians, by institutions, at school, at work, etc. I don't see how wanting full equal opportunities and treatment in the eyes of the law and institutions is so political ? ( no one is asking for superiority here)

7) I don't really have a response. You said yourself that you agree black lives matter and that we should be telling our youth that their lives matter, which they do. but unfortunately in many ways society still shows that they don't. To me personally if you don't support BLM do I think you're a racist? If one of my white friends told me to my face he doesn't agree with/support BLM, what that tells me is that he doesn't support and agree with the core wants and demands of the BLM movement, which is fair and equal social, legal and institutional treatment for black lives.. if you told me you dont agree with that then I would have to presume you have other more innate motives/reservations about black people. If you don't think there ANY types of unfair social/legal/institutional treatment against black people at all therefore BLM is a sham, then unfortunately I don't think we're in a position to have a conversation at all.

8) No, surprisingly, the end goal isn't world domination gasp. Black lives matter doesn't mean that white lives don't matter. It doesn't mean that only black lives matter. I think many people conflate these ideas because historically, when (typically white) people made statements about their own treatment/race/ethnicity it also came with the connotation/sentiment against equality. Unlike phrases such as "white power" etc, BLM isn't about superiority and dividing groups of people, but it's about equality.

As mentioned, hoping to keep this discussion civil.

 

Your opinion is not at all controversial. In fact, it is pretty boilerplate - various iterations of this same post have been written on this website for weeks if not months. You are parroting conservative talking points tailor-made to devalue the fight against racism within policing/the justice system.

If you are indeed half black, I feel sorry for you that your black parent didn't do a better job at raising you. But then again, this isn't a surprising take. Many half black/white mixed kids identify with their white side. Skin folk ain't kinfolk, as they say.

Array
 

They are not all boilerplate conservative talking points. The original BLM people were well-intentioned people with somewhat radical ideas. Now that it's mainstream, it's a mix of well-intentioned people with terrible ideas and well-intentioned people with good ideas. But the media loves to portray the well-intentioned but terrible ideas and people seem to think such ideas are actually good. Hence the proliferation of the "Cancel culture" and some weird nonsense about "white male patriarchy: or whatever it's called nowadays.

Is systematic racism real? Yes. Is it problematic? Yes. Is it what people think it is? No. It's true that there is no major legal system that deliberately promotes racism. But there were and still are programs that aggravate racial inequality, most of which were actually intended to decrease racial inequality.

It upsets me that people forget that the most fundamental ways to get rid of racial injustice in our modern times is through better education and career related resources. People living in poor areas aren't even aware of the life choices they can make or what kinds of jobs are even out there. Way too much focus on the symptoms and almost non on the root causes. Typical politics.

 
Milton Friedchickenman:
They are not all boilerplate conservative talking points. The original BLM people were well-intentioned people with somewhat radical ideas. Now that it's mainstream, it's a mix of well-intentioned people with terrible ideas and well-intentioned people with good ideas. But the media loves to portray the well-intentioned but terrible ideas and people seem to think such ideas are actually good. Hence the proliferation of the "Cancel culture" and some weird nonsense about "white male patriarchy: or whatever it's called nowadays.

Is systematic racism real? Yes. Is it problematic? Yes. Is it what people think it is? No. It's true that there is no major legal system that deliberately promotes racism. But there were and still are programs that aggravate racial inequality, most of which were actually intended to decrease racial inequality.

It upsets me that people forget that the most fundamental ways to get rid of racial injustice in our modern times is through better education and career related resources. People living in poor areas aren't even aware of the life choices they can make or what kinds of jobs are even out there. Way too much focus on the symptoms and almost non on the root causes. Typical politics.

His post is boilerplate.

We can discuss your rationale regarding certain programs actually aggravating racism but not on this thread.

I also think such analysis ignores the deleterious effects that certain policies (redlining, loan discrimination etc.) have on the current economic state of black America. And in a country that basically punishes the poor, you have a system that disproportionately punishes black people.

I am not against ending AA and certain social programs etc. - just go ahead and give black people the reparations they've been asking for for generations.

Array
 

You are correct. I don't affiliate that much with my black side because my "grandfather" beat my dad, his siblings, and his (ex) wife (my grandmother). He also got high and drunk often (former Navy sailor) which lead to beatings, and eventually just left his family. I don't even call that guy my grandfather, he's just my dad's dad. He's no man to me. My cousin at 17 has two kids and is married to a 40 year old man. I have aunts who have been drug addicts. I also had an aunt who was shot in the head and killed on my second birthday for having gang affiliations. Do you want proof? There is an article written about it. I love my black family, but what good is coming out of domestic abuse, drug addiction/abuse, teenage pregnancy, and gang affiliations that lead to murder?

I have no time for that and if you want me to have some sort of grief for them because we share the same skin tone, then you are sorrily mistaken. It's quite unfortunate that you, a fellow black brother, feels the need to tear down another. I'm proud of who I am. I'm proud of what both my mother and father look like. If you have a problem with a free-thinking black man sharing his thoughts, then I don't know what to tell you sir. I am not your negro.

God bless.

 

Oh okay, thanks for your honesty. Please don't claim to be informed by your black side whatsoever. You're a white guy who happens to have some black lineage. That you chose to call that lineage out for some "omg he's half black and spewing anti-BLM conservative talking points" credit says a lot. Nothing about your OP is "free-thinking", it's Fox News drivel. You aren't a brother - I mean that wholeheartedly.

Have a good one.

Array
 

Your post shows a lack of understanding about history, the Black Lives Matter movement, and how political movements and politics alike work on a very basic level. At the same time, you present common knowledge as revelations, give sweeping generalizations, and make bad faith arguments to try to push what is otherwise a generic "all lives matter" viewpoint. You know this is trash too because you specifically titled it "Controversial Take."

I'm not sure why we needed another thread about this, much less by someone so obviously uninformed, but as usual I'm going to reiterate that people of various conflicting viewpoints can have intelligent disagreements on political matters. This is not that. This just sucks.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

You make some good points - 4), 5), 6), and 7) . I'd say that the original BLM people are well intentioned people with terrible ideas. Unfortunately, these well-intentioned empty headed people seem to dominate mainstream social movements nowadays. It seems like trying to talk about facts get you labeled a "racist" or a "heartless psycho" in these trying times ...

The truth is, majority of people out there protesting don't know the truth about racial injustice nor what caused it. And most of their ideas about fixing racial injustice will actually worsen it.

I wrote a more holistic analysis on this (all I've done was simply gather facts and what generally seems to be true and connected the dots)

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/systematic-racism-exists-just-no…

I believe the book Segregation by Design by Jessica Trounstine provides much more detailed and data-driven analysis of my post. The summary is, programs like public housing, intended to help minorities, ended up causing Segregation 2.0 and tremendous amount of racial injustice in the form of economic inequality and inequality of opportunity. They want toe government to fix things, when the government has been screwing things up for the past 100 years.

People ignore that there is a very clear and feasible solution - better education and career resources. Point 5) seems like a no-brainer to people who actually bother to think. But I guess most people don't like thinking...

 

You seem to be stuck in some chicken & egg argument. Public housing was necessary because of economic inequality stemming from inequality of opportunity, it didn't cause such a condition.

Education is key but I believe right now the income gap between college-educated black and white men is larger than the income gap between college-educated black men and white men who only graduated HS. Clearly, education isn't the end all be all that many conservatives claim it is. Nor would it solve hundreds of years that blacks weren't allowed to accumulate wealth.

Array
 
BobTheBaker:
Public housing was necessary because of economic inequality stemming from inequality of opportunity, it didn't cause such a condition.
Sorry to be so blunt. But you're absolutely wrong.

It did cause such a condition. Do you know where all the "ghettos" are? Do you know why there's this notion of "inner-city black people"? Most such areas were, once upon a time, public housing areas. From Harlem and Camden, NJ to Compton, CA.

Also, why was "Public housing" specifically necessary? The answer is it wasn't. Why couldn't it just be housing subsidies? Why didn't people get more choices in where they live? If you think about it, public housing programs restricted where people could live and eventually "forced" people of the same color to live in the same community. It didn't happen by choice. Sounds like Segregation to me...

Let's dive deep into what actually went down in public housing areas. Local governments hires construction companies to build houses. Construction companies build crappy houses with shitty living conditions to save money. Various interest groups lobby and bunch of arbitrary regulations go into place. Next thing you know, there's not enough money to build good schools. People's education level fall behind, and the vicious cycle starts. Eventually, crime rates go up, as it naturally does when living conditions decline. All of a sudden, the federal government gets concerned with crime rates and increases police presence. Simultaneously, police unions become strong enough that bad practices go unchecked. Now we have police brutality that damages the African-American community the most.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're blinded by feel-good nonsense. There's no way out of economic inequality when you don't give people education and other career resources. I know it's frustrating to be told "You just have to wait", but that's the truth. Truth doesn't always sound so pretty, does it?. Other "solutions" are nothing but temporary measures that treat the symptoms, not the disease. And who knows what long-term harms that some of these temporary measures might have?

Only real way to end inequality - racial and economic (Nowadays, racial inequality is now purely an economic one) - for good is to give everyone access to education and career choices. This is an economic and sociological fact that civilizations continued seeing through out history. More education to more people = More equal and thriving societies. There's a reason why philanthropists and local governments in Africa focus so much on building schools. How could anyone ever stand up on their two feet with broken legs (legs being education and choices)?

 

Who cares.

More importantly, why hasn't there been any news on the humanitarian crisis in Yemen? They have been and are in real danger with COVID-19 and their state of affairs and no one is doing or saying anything.

 

Why is it that almost every time these killings go viral (which makes them seem like they're a lot more common than they actually are), it always comes out a few weeks later after the initial media blitz that there was more to the situation than first realized.

For example, how many people know that Rodney King was high on PCP and recklessly driving in a high speed pursuit before he was pulled over? How many people know that Trayvon Martin jumped and attacked George Zimmerman? How many people know that it looks like Ahmaud Arbery likely was carrying out a crime when the McMichaels encountered him?

Now you might say that these actions don't merit death, and that's probably true. But almost every time these cases have gone to trial, the suspect was either found to have rationally acted in self-defense or there was enough of a plausible misunderstanding that the jury could not convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Now people might say to this that our justice system is a massive conspiracy run by evil whites who conspire behind closed doors to just wantonly give every black person the legal shaft. But is that really true? These involve trials with multi-racial juries, where evidence (increasingly inclusive of body-cam footage now) is clearing the suspects of wrongdoing more often than not.

So what does this say, that all the people randomly selected for jury duty are just hell-bent racists or that when presented the entirety of evidence, the black men killed in these situations usually behaved recklessly and criminally and essentially provoked their deaths? Do people actually believe that police officers like these situations, that they want to become the next Derek Chauvin and have their identities plastered all over the news and have to deal with the racial mob? Of course they don't. In fact evidence shows that police officers tend to act much more cautious and hesitant around black suspects because they are scared about the situation will be interpreted. So in the instances when lethal force was actually used, you have to ask yourself, "maybe there's a reason?"

 
Analyst 1 in IB-M&A:
How many people know that it looks like Ahmaud Arbery likely was carrying out a crime when the McMichaels encountered him!

He was jogging, you ignorant dumbass.

He was out for a jog and three rednecks lynched him.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

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