Corporate Lawyer to MBA

Hi all,

I'm a corporate (BigLaw) lawyer practicing in the field of M&A and start-ups. I work at one of the top three tech law firms in the country and I'm based in the Bay Area. I'm considering applying to MBA programs next year and, in particular, I'm interested in Stanford GSB (though also Booth, HBS and Wharton).

My plan post B-school would likely be to enter one of the large tech companies (many of whom are clients) in a corporate development role. I would also consider working in development/impact investing/microfinance focusing on technology in an emerging market, or even forming/joining a start-up.

Thanks in advance,
S

Law to MBA

Going from law to industry is possible. Consider the fact that many working professionals use an MBA as a rebranding opportunity.

You may face some questions about why you want to make a career change while looking for admissions into business schools. It will be critical to have a good answer to this.

Review your resume. Many applicants to business schools already have several years of experience under their belts. Having work experience is a double-edged sword in this scenario. It will probably help with admissions but you will also have to have a very convincing story for the career switch.

Key Takeaways

  • Making the switch is possible especially for a lawyer who is accepted into a good business school.

from certified user @Betsy Massar"

It's quite possible that you can get from here to there by working your way through deals and hobnobbing with people in investment banks. But on the other hand, it might take a long time and your network may never include hiring managers in the tech industry.

So I agree that your chosen path may make sense. I've seen lawyers try and succeed to get into business school, and it works. For example: a biglaw-lawyer specializing in bankruptcy who now, after her MBA at Sloan, is going to work in a startup in Israel. She had no connections there before, none. Without business school, and the opportunities it offered her, she would not have been able to connect the dots.

Recommended Reading

 
LiamNeeson:

Why would you need an MBA? I advise to reach out to your clients and try to make the switch. It'll save you around $ 500,000 in opportunity cost.

There has been a topic on TLS about this.

I'm actually not particularly bothered about money with this. My undergrad was free and I had scholarships from law school so I've pretty much cleared all debt. In general, I'm not hugely money motivated, though, I concede, I enjoy a large salary as much as anyone else. I should also mention I'm quite young (I was hoping MBA adcoms would be impressed with this, though maybe not) - I became a lawyer at 24 and I'm now only 25.

Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen that thread. I'm not sure if Sandy Kreisberg has a whole lot of experience with lawyers applying, but it seems really counter intuitive that an applicant who attended one of the best schools for their profession and went on to work at one of the best firms in their chosen industry wouldn't be a good candidate? I'm not saying this isn't the case - I just don't know why it would be!

I do admit that the opportunity cost should not be totally disregarded - this is why I've limited my choices to the schools above. Honestly, I'd really like to go to b-school because I think it would be an incredible experience and I'm genuinely interested in the curriculum, as well as the opportunity to study under leading academics with an exceptional peer group.

 

I also really don't understand how an MBA from anywhere, particularly a place like Booth or Wharton, is really going to help you that much. Especially given the hefty opportunity cost noted above. Seems like you can do much better by networking toward a new job that's either in a role you like better or at company you like better. Talk to some people who have exited your law firm to industry and get some tips.

If there's one place you get by without an MBA, it's Silicon Valley.

 
Best Response

It's quite possible that you can get from here to there by working your way through deals and hobnobbing with people in investment banks. But on the other hand, it might take a long time and your network may never include hiring managers in the tech industry.

So I agree that your chosen path may make sense. I've seen lawyers try and succeed to get into business school, and it works. For example: a big law-lawyer specializing in bankruptcy who now, after her MBA at Sloan, is going to work in a startup in Israel. She had no connections there before, none. Without business school, and the opportunities it offered her, she would not have been able to connect the dots.

However, as you go through the admissions journey, you are likely to be asked the very same questions you are being challenged with here -- could you do the same thing without the MBA? As long as you are clear on your purpose you will be a credible candidate.

Also, being international and knowing 2 legal/corporate systems is a plus. Could certainly add to your marketability. Go for it.

PS: but not just GSB. Too much effort for too few open seats.

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 
Betsy Massar:

It's quite possible that you can get from here to there by working your way through deals and hobnobbing with people in investment banks. But on the other hand, it might take a long time and your network may never include hiring managers in the tech industry.

So I agree that your chosen path may make sense. I've seen lawyers try and succeed to get into business school, and it works. For example: a big law lawyer specializing in bankruptcy who now, after her MBA at Sloan, is going to work in a startup in Israel. She had no connections there before, none. Without business school, and the opportunities it offered her, she would not have been able to connect the dots.

However, as you go through the admissions journey, you are likely to be asked the very same questions you are being challenged with here -- could you do the same thing without the MBA? As long as you are clear on your purpose you will be a credible candidate.

Also, being international and knowing 2 legal/corporate systems is a plus. Could certainly add to your marketability. Go for it.

PS: but not just GSB. Too much effort for too few open seats.

Thanks for the response, Betsy.

Do you think my profile would preclude me from admission to GSB? Do you think my chances would be higher at HBS? I'm actually quite good at networking so could transition to banking/consulting and even corp dev* for a year before applying to b-school if you think it would help me applying to HBS or GSB? As mentioned, I'm only 25 so I've got plenty of time. For opportunity cost reasons combined with what I want out of the MBA (top profs, peers, industry speakers etc) and the fact I already attended a highly selective law school, I would only push ahead for HBS/GSB and maybe Wharton/Booth. This isn't to say that I don't think the other top 10 B-schools aren't excellent institutions, but I don't think it would be as good, or as justifiable, a move for me.

*(I should mention that even though I said I would potentially like to do corp dev after b-school, it would just be for a while before moving to a start-up, VC or tech PE - MBA is a long term investment for me).

 

I don't like to offer your "odds" -- that's Sandy's thing -- but everyone's chances are better if they apply to 2 schools, or 4 schools rather than 1. GSB can be really random. So that's why it's good to have a backup. [Having said that, calling HBS a backup might be getting ahead of ourselves]

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 
Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen that thread. I'm not sure if Sandy Kreisberg has a whole lot of experience with lawyers applying, but it seems really counter intuitive that an applicant who attended one of the best schools for their profession and went on to work at one of the best firms in their chosen industry wouldn't be a good candidate? I'm not saying this isn't the case - I just don't know why it would be!

I would take Sandy's advice with a grain of salt here.

 

Know someone that did this from a similar law school - T14 but not T3/6 - and that Worked at a firm like yours as well, a good firm but not V5, etc. (said admissions only knows the big corp law firms). said law transcript was strangely important, and the rest was just articulating why he wanted to go back to school after all the time he spent in. Ended up at M7 but not H/S.

"They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."
 

Could be wrong, but I don't think the "highly selective" top 8 (is that a thing?) law school is going to really impress adcoms like you think it will. The admit rate at Stanford GSB is lower than the admit rate at Yale Law, and mba applicants apply to much fewer business schools than applicants to law schools. I don't know if it's harder to get into one or the other, just saying that it's mostly superstars who get into those places. I'd imagine that M7 business schools are roughly as competitive as top 8 law schools so I guess you'd be in the hunt there. If you were a law review editor and did a federal clerkship or something like that then it obviously would change things.

 

For law schools there's the YHS like we have H/S for b school and our M7 equivalent is the T6 which also includes columbia, chicago, and NYU. Won't address the admit rate BC not trying to get into pissing match. And you may misinterpret the usefulness of law review or clerking apart from prestige (especially if you go corp - more useful for lit).

"They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."
 
consultant798:

Could be wrong, but I don't think the "highly selective" top 8 (is that a thing?) law school is going to really impress adcoms like you think it will. The admit rate at Stanford GSB is lower than the admit rate at Yale Law, and mba applicants apply to much fewer business schools than applicants to law schools. I don't know if it's harder to get into one or the other, just saying that it's mostly superstars who get into those places. I'd imagine that M7 business schools are roughly as competitive as top 8 law schools so I guess you'd be in the hunt there. If you were a law review editor and did a federal clerkship or something like that then it obviously would change things.

Just for the benefit of people who care about the subject matter, I'd like to clear a few things up.

I think acceptance rates are a poor metric for comparison purposes across different disciplines. Even within business schools, acceptance rates are not even almost perfectly correlated with rankings. For instance, Stern's acceptance rate is 16%, whereas Wharton's is 18% and Booth's is 21%, both of which are also higher than the rate of 13% at Haas. If you'd like to attempt another cross comparison with a traditional graduate school, medical school, we see that the acceptance rate at University of Minnesota, which is ranked in the 20-40 range, is 5% - lower than GSB's acceptance rate. The top medical schools have acceptance rates of around 2-3%.

A more useful metric (though still not a fantastic one) would be something like median GPA, which is approximately 3.9 at Yale Law, and 3.7 at GSB. In fact, the median GPA for my law school is approximately 3.8.

We could also do a comparison of median LSAT and gmat scores. While the two are not comparable, we could look at the percentile results. A 99th percentile score is the median LSAT for Yale Law, while a 96th percentile gmat score is the median for GSB.

I would like to emphasize that I do not believe these are great comparisons, though, nonetheless, certainly superior to looking at admission rates.

As for "applicants applyING to much fewer business schools than applicants to law schools" - I would welcome a citation or any data to back this up.

CountryUnderdog:

For law schools there's the YHS like we have H/S for b school and our M7 equivalent is the T6 which also includes columbia, chicago, and NYU. Won't address the admit rate BC not trying to get into pissing match. And you may misinterpret the usefulness of law review or clerking apart from prestige (especially if you go corp - more useful for lit).

Completely agree with you regarding clerking - very prestigious accolade, though much more applicable for litigation lawyers. Same goes for law review. I think transactional practices would put more value in a stint at GS/MS/JPM.

However, regarding M7 being equivalent to T6 - I couldn't disagree more. I would say that M7 would be broadly equivalent to the T14 law schools (in fact, this is probably why they are each regarded as the top tier). I'll avoid reeling off excessive figures, lest I bore you to death, but Georgetown Law - typically ranked 14th, has a median GPA of 3.7 and an LSAT in the 95th percentile. Columbia/Kellogg are both around 3.5 GPA, 92nd/93rd percentile GMAT. Of course, work experience is a major factor for b-school applications, just as it is for law school applications, but that would be an extremely difficult subject on which to gather data.

I took business school classes in law school (at the similarly ranked business school) and sat in on other M7 classes while visiting friends and, at least in my opinion, the caliber of students at law schools appears to be firmly above those at similarly ranked business schools. I concede, this is only my opinion, but the statistical picture I've painted does correlate. The fact that many UPenn JD (top 8 law school) students apply and are accepted to the joint JD/MBA program with Wharton (top 3 b school) is further testament to this comparison.

 

Enjoyed reading the comparisons, and appreciate the research you've done, but I'm not sure they're very useful.

Law schools place much more emphasis on the LSAT than b-schools place on the GMAT. As such, an extra point or two on the LSAT means much more than it does on the GMAT. Someone applying to GSB might take the test and score a 720 and then be done with it, knowing I'm that their score is good enough to be considered. Someone with a 168 has a huge incentive to score a 170.

Second, there is a much smaller barrier to entry for law school vs. business school. Prospective law students need a good GPA and test score, and not much else. This attracts a lot more applicants- do well on the LSAT and you hit the lottery so to speak. You could be a 40-year old high school teacher or a 21-year old college senior and you still have a chance at admission if your stats are right.

Business schools are much more structured in who they admit- a guy with great stats but no or weak work experience has essentially 0 chance at admission. This isn't to suggest that law students all come from some random background; just that the window for someone wanting to go to a top law school is much larger than it is for someone wanting to go to a top business school. I think this drives up application numbers at law schools quite a bit.

Lastly, I think it's a bit meaningless to compare academic caliber of students at law and business students based off of a few classes. MBA programs aren't meant to be as rigorous, 99% of the students already have business experience. The only law students with legal experience are former paralegals, congressional staffers, etc. which is a very small portion of the class.

 

I'm very interested in the business and financial aspects of the work I do, so I would like to move more in that direction.

It is very difficult to find a good work situation in corporate law - even at small firms, the hours are typically very long and unpredictable, a large part of what you do is grunt work, and abusive partners and senior associates are common. At large firms those things are as bad or worse.

 

Not an answer to your question but I saw on the Princeton Msc of Finance (Check Princeton's website) a guy who had a Harvard JD and some other ivy league undergrad.

You fit that profile. Although, its definately MATH focused, so I hope you are well schooled in that. It typically denies otherwise outstanding candidates for their 'inability to benefit' from the program due to their limited math background.

 

I did some math (calc, linear, diff eq, stats) and computer science as an undergrad, although I haven't used any of it in ten years. I technically fit the minimum prerequisites. I see they have a math refresher course which would help a lot.

 

I graduated from Williams, top 10 law school, and am at a top 10 b-school. I never practiced law. I entered b-school at 32. Forget the masters in finance and go for the MBA. You will make better contacts, and that's half the reason for getting the degree. Make sure you go to the best school you can get into and try to go to a "quant" school like Chicago or Wharton if possible.

 

cylack,

With undergrad degree, law degree, and MBA, how do you deal with the debt? I'm looking to get a graduate degree sometime down the road but I'm sort of worried about the expense (I have much debt from undergrad degree).

 

My folks paid for college, I worked for a few years as a trader after college and was able to pay for law school. As for b-school, I will have loans to pay off...hopefully I can land a banking position to pay them off!

 

Your law school grades will probably factor in, but it's not like law school admissions where your application lives and dies by your GPA/LSAT combo. Work experience is way more important. You need to provide more context to gain any specific advice, but let's say you're the average business school age of roughly 27. Let's also say you're a K-JD, which means you're starting work as a lawyer at around 25. With just 1-2 years at an associate attorney position, even at a Cravath, Sully, Skadden, you have relatively little work experience in a non-business/management position. Compared to the average four years of a typical finance/consulting applicant, you're not as far down a career path to effectively sell yourself. You will also have to explain why you want to change paths, as I've heard lawyers looking to switch over can sometimes be perceived as flaky. In other words, it's at best a tough sell. Again, this is all assuming you're around the average business school applicant's age. If you're significantly older, you have to make an even more compelling case.

All that being said, if you have monster stats, I'd bet you have a good shot at some M7s. I know there are a few JDs in most entering classes, although I'm not sure if their most recent work experience was practicing the law. If I were in your position, I'd try to reach out to contacts in the industry you're looking to transition towards. Hopefully you've built enough connections to land yourself a gig without having to go to b-school.

Gimme the loot
 

For what it's worth, I've heard HBS and GSB are pretty skeptical of lawyers.

That being said I've spoken to T-15 adcomms (MBA Fair) and they say they like to have some lawyers in their class to mix up the profile. They also told me they care about UGPA more than law GPA (factors into stats/rankings which is main reason I'd assume). A few of them told me that the law GPA will only make a difference if on the extreme ends (incredibly low or incredibly high).

I've seen a lot of Canadian BigLaw alum go to top 15 schools including Berkeley, Columbia (more than a few went here), UCLA... I'm hoping to get more input here too as I'm in Canadian BigLaw and may apply to B-school in 3-5 years.

 

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