Do these "Fuck Banking" posts refer to S&T or CM as well?

Obviously a hot topic on WSO has been all of the banking posts we've seen where people basically emphasize their hatred toward the profession or state that it's not for them in some way. This often has to do with the work involved, the hours, and the feeling that one isn't really learning much.

My question is: are there any posts like this that are directed toward S&T and Capital Markets? I know that especially for CM the exit opps are supposedly non-existant but my question isn't about that as much as it is wondering if it's rarer for people to hate their existance in S&T and CM than pure IBD. This most likely all comes down to the hours if it's the case, as there's a big difference between working 60-70 hours a week and working 80+. That and the fact that people in S&T and CM could be in it for the long-run and aren't trying to lateral after a few years. I've searched for posts of people who hate their lives in S&T/CM but can't find any.

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Comments (17)

Best Response
May 11, 2012 - 10:59am

These aren't the FO notes of the pre-2008 era. These are largely "Goodbye, good luck, we had fun, and we wish you well!" notes.

I don't think anybody is saying F banking. I think we're just saying that we had a great five year run, the next five years don't look quite as great as the five years that we had, and now it's time to reconsider the marginal value of the 20 hours/week extra that we put in on top of F500 employees and commercial bankers with similar credentials and qualifications. Because the pay gap has shrunk a bit. I can take a 30% (pre-tax) pay cut, a 35% hour cut, a 50% stress from work cut, and be at a firm like Northern Trust in Chicago or US Bancorp in Minneapolis, where my dollars stretch about twice as far as they do in NYC. The calculus didn't make as much sense when it was a 50% pay cut, but now it does.

I still think this a great industry to spend two years in, maybe still even five years in. Two years of experience on Wall Street is four years in the fortune 500; five years is like eight or nine. But it's not a great industry to get stuck in. That's why I've been warning you guys to avoid student loans and save, save, save.

May 11, 2012 - 11:16am
IlliniProgrammer:
These aren't the FO notes of the pre-2008 era. These are largely "Goodbye, good luck, we had fun, and we wish you well!" notes.

I don't think anybody is saying F banking. I think we're just saying that we had a great five year run, the next five years don't look quite as great as the five years that we had, and now it's time to reconsider the marginal value of the 20 hours/week extra that we put in on top of F500 employees and commercial bankers with similar credentials and qualifications. Because the pay gap has shrunk a bit. I can take a 30% (pre-tax) pay cut, a 35% hour cut, a 50% stress from work cut, and be at a firm like Northern Trust in Chicago or US Bancorp in Minneapolis, where my dollars stretch about twice as far as they do in NYC. The calculus didn't make as much sense when it was a 50% pay cut, but now it does.

I still think this a great industry to spend two years in, maybe still even five years in. Two years of experience on Wall Street is four years in the fortune 500; five years is like eight or nine. But it's not a great industry to get stuck in. That's why I've been warning you guys to avoid student loans and save, save, save.

Yes but many of the posts have actually complained about the overall quality of life, the fact that you're an "office drone," the advice that "it's not worth it, I was becoming a shell," etc. I'm just trying to see if those in CM or S&T have had similar experiences on WSO or if it's mostly just banking that these experiences have been written about.

May 11, 2012 - 2:51pm
IlliniProgrammer:
I think we're just saying that we had a great five year run, the next five years don't look quite as great as the five years that we had, and now it's time to reconsider the marginal value of the 20 hours/week extra that we put in on top of F500 employees and commercial bankers with similar credentials and qualifications.

20 lol
lolll
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May 11, 2012 - 11:26am
Yes but many of the posts have actually complained about the overall quality of life, the fact that you're an "office drone," the advice that "it's not worth it, I was becoming a shell," etc. I'm just trying to see if those in CM or S&T have had similar experiences on WSO or if it's mostly just banking that these experiences have been written about.

I haven't seen any of those. We knew this going in.

When you have $0 debt and $0 in the bank and an engineering degree but no experience, banking makes A LOT of sense. When you have $X in the bank, Y years of experience, only Z years left before you hit 40, and losing 1/Wth of your life expectancy every year, it tends to change your focus about life's trade-offs.

There is no work-life balance. Just work-life trade-offs. Lots of work and advancement is an obvious choice at 22, but it's a much trickier decision five years later. One thing that is clear, however, is that the trade-offs tend to be much higher-quality problems if you live well within your means, avoid student debt, and save lots of money. If you're getting 15% of your living expenses from interest and dividends, your choices are a lot easier than if you're working in banking and living hand to mouth.

May 11, 2012 - 11:31am
IlliniProgrammer:
Yes but many of the posts have actually complained about the overall quality of life, the fact that you're an "office drone," the advice that "it's not worth it, I was becoming a shell," etc. I'm just trying to see if those in CM or S&T have had similar experiences on WSO or if it's mostly just banking that these experiences have been written about.

I haven't seen any of those. We knew this going in.

When you have $0 debt and $0 in the bank and an engineering degree but no experience, banking makes A LOT of sense. When you have $X in the bank, Y years of experience, only Z years left before you hit 40, and losing 1/Wth of your life expectancy every year, it tends to change your focus about life's trade-offs.

There is no work-life balance. Just work-life choices. Lots of work and advancement is an obvious choice at 22, but it's a trickier decision five years later. People who in this industry who avoid debt and live on less than 60% of their take-home pay tend to be a lot happier in the long run than those who don't.

you'll make an ideal dutch uncle one day. literally.

May 11, 2012 - 1:48pm
Connor:
I think people should do at least 2 years in IBD, 2 years in B-School, and 2 years in PE/HF... THEN decide if you want to carry on with your career in high finance. 28-years-old is definitely a young enough age to completely start over and settle down.

B-school costs a lot of money. These days, you are lucky to save enough money to pay for an MBA from two years in banking.

Rule #1 is don't get into debt.
Rule #2 is that it's easier to save large amounts of money in Manhattan and spend it elsewhere than it is to spend money in Manhattan and save it elsewhere.

May 11, 2012 - 2:31pm
IlliniProgrammer:
Connor:
I think people should do at least 2 years in IBD, 2 years in B-School, and 2 years in PE/HF... THEN decide if you want to carry on with your career in high finance. 28-years-old is definitely a young enough age to completely start over and settle down.

B-school costs a lot of money. These days, you are lucky to save enough money to pay for an MBA from two years in banking.

Rule #1 is don't get into debt.
Rule #2 is that it's easier to save large amounts of money in Manhattan and spend it elsewhere than it is to spend money in Manhattan and save it elsewhere.


I'm not saying it would be easy, but you could be a Summer Associate during B-School, and that might leave you with a bit of debt, but it would be well worth the MBA.
May 11, 2012 - 2:10pm
Connor:
I think people should do at least 2 years in IBD, 2 years in B-School, and 2 years in PE/HF... THEN decide if you want to carry on with your career in high finance. 28-years-old is definitely a young enough age to completely start over and settle down.

Aren't you a freshman in college? What qualifies you to give definitive career advice?

May 11, 2012 - 1:42pm

I think what you are missing is the perspective that the opportunity cost has changed. When you were guaranteed to make a bunch of money, you were much more willing to put up with the quality of life issues.

Banking has always been difficult and a drain on your life. We had kids in my analyst class bail within a couple of months of training because they couldn't hack it (in an era when bonuses were great). At a high enough compensation level you are much more willing to put up with the more BS aspects of this career path. As IP mentioned above, when the difference in comp between banking and other fields diminishes then it changes the game. You can much more easily move to a job with fewer hours and less stress because you aren't giving up anywhere near as much money.

S&T is going through a similar crisis as banking. Traders are no longer allowed to take risk in the same way that they were in the past; this impacts their P&L. Additionally, they aren't able to get paid out on exceptional performance so they have less incentive to take risk. This make the job less fun (and less profitable).

We are witnessing a structural shift in the broader financial service industry, and it is causing people to reevaluate whether or not this career path is the best fit.

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May 11, 2012 - 3:30pm

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