Don't blame China - the US is reponsible for the American outbreak

After reading this post, I don't know how the fuck to respond. Blind faith in American exceptionalism is dangerous (and quite frankly, part of the reason why the US fucked up their Coronavirus response so badly) and it scares me that the majority of people have such a warped view of China that they would SB such a completely inane post. Blindly lashing out at China won't fix the flaming dumpster fire clusterfuck of American problems that caused the extent of the Coronavirus outbreak in the US.

China is not responsible for the United States being the current epicenter of the global outbreak. The gross fucking incompetence of our government's response to it is. Just because China downplayed it initially doesn't mean the United States intelligence community didn't know exactly what was going on in China - they did know exactly what was going on and the threats they posed. Do you really think the CIA can be fooled by a few fake numbers coming out of China? Trump and other government officials had many, many, many chances to shut this thing down and had the intelligence to back it up but didn't because they were too enamored with the impeachment circus and blindly assumed that the United States would deal with it competently of people's confirmation bias and blind, unwarranted, faith in American exceptionalism.

If a fucking normie like me with no intelligence briefings realized that this would be a major issue on
January 22nd, and the Texas grocery store chain H-E-B was more prepared than the US government, its pretty fucking obvious that the government dropped the ball.

Yes, the head of the WHO is a Chinese puppet clown, and yes China has benefited tremendously in the past from property transfer and IP theft. But that's neither here nor there.

The fact of the mattter is the US fucked up big time. The US had 2 months to prepare and the intelligence telling us why we needed to prepare, but did nothing except spread disinformation telling people not to wear masks (the only countries that have flattened the curve quickly are Asian countries where 100% of the population is wearing face masks) and that it's just the flu and as long as you wash your hands and sing the birthday song twice you'll be alright. If we didn't even set up temperature taking stations at the airport to measure people from China and Italy, it's completely fucking irrelevant that China didn't lock down properly. We didn't lock down properly, even though we had the playbook to do so. It's like America had the answers to the test they were taking in front of them, but instead chose to completely ignore them and make up our own answers, and now we're fucking surprised when we failed the test. American incompetence is not China's fault.

The spread of Coronavirus in the United States is due to complete and total failure of American institutions at every single level. Ranging from President Trump, who ignored months and months of intelligence briefings, to Congress, who took an excrutiangly long time to pass a joke of a stimulus bill, to the CDC who didn't have testing kits, to the states who waited weeks to institute shelter-in-place laws, to individuals who didn't take this seriously until it was too late and still went on their spring break trips. And I won't even touch how much our Kafkaseque nightmare of a healthcare system and lack of paid sick leave compounded the spread among our most vulnerable population.

China fucked up their initial response but got it under control using a very controlled and strict response. The United States had the intelligence to prevent the spread and could have learned from China's response, but instead choose to dilly dally around and wait two months until it was too late. Although the virus originated in China, the reason why the outbreak and recession in the US is so severe is because of the complete failure of our institutions at every, single, fucking level. Blaming China won't do shit, we need to fix the broken systems we have here in the United States. Wake the fuck up!

Early testing when we needed it (testing as of 3/17/20)

Current cases

 
Controversial

Aren't you the same guy who predicted in January that Bernie Sanders would be elected President in November? You don't know anything. You spit out analysis like everyone else, and sometimes you're right and sometimes you're laughably wrong. You didn't know jack in January--you made a prediction and it was right and you made another prediction and it was wrong.

Also, the U.S. is only the epicenter of the outbreak if you don't consider population size. The U.S. is something like 67th in deaths per capita. So if the U.S. fucked up its response then so did virtually the entire rest of the world.

Array
 

Predicting Bernie would likely win the nomination before South Carolina results came in was like predicting Hillary would win in 2016 - ultimately things turned out differently, but based on the evidence and polling you had in front of you, it was the smartest bet. Bernie had a commanding delegate lead and the strongest performance in the first three Democratic primaries out of any candidate in modern political history. Only a targeted, unified campaign by the Democratic establishment to clear the moderate lane would derail him, and they pulled it off just in the nick of time. Predicting the future of politics is really hard, but predicting exponential growth in the spread of a virus when a government doesn’t take any action is very, very, very fucking easy.

 

The US is definitely not 67th in the world. As of right now, there’s 1.9 million recorded cases, and 600,000 of those are in the US. We have 31% of the confirmed cases, that’s really fucking bad.

 

equal to Hillary winning in 2016? wtf? the polls and media were saying Hillary was a 95% + lock to win, Bernie was nowhere near close to that. and you say now that you were just predicting him to win the nomination, but looking back at your post, you were calling that bernie would win the Presidency. stop trying to downplay your terrible take. you had no clue what you were talking about then and you have no clue what you’re talking about now

 

I was wondering how you were gonna avoid the issue this time. Naive as I am, I thought the OP was so straight to the point that you'd have no chance but to actually address the point, but no, you went for the fucking Bernie prediction instead. Unbelievable (yet not really surprising, somehow)

Can you just, for once, stop focusing on who else is there to blame, or who also missed predictions, or whatever other argument you use to avoid commenting on the US response to the covid crisis and tell us your opinion on how things were handled?

 
ACP7:
I was wondering how you were gonna avoid the issue this time. Naive as I am, I thought the OP was so straight to the point that you'd have no chance but to actually address the point, but no, you went for the fucking Bernie prediction instead. Unbelievable (yet not really surprising, somehow)

Because the OP has a history of tooting his own horn about how intelligent he is. He has created at least 2 threads now celebrating his various accomplishments at prediction, so I thought it would at least be humbling to remind him that he isn't Nostradamus.

ACP7:
Can you just, for once, stop focusing on who else is there to blame, or who also missed predictions, or whatever other argument you use to avoid commenting on the US response to the covid crisis and tell us your opinion on how things were handled?

How well things are handled compared to what? The entire world is in meltdown mode. I'm not sure any one nation has had a demonstrably better response than any other. And why is that? Because we don't know the future. Sweden responded totally differently by doing social distancing measures but not shutting down their economy, thus they have a higher per capita death toll. What we don't know is what will happen in a few months when there is a second outbreak. If Sweden is hit much less badly than everyone else then it will prove that the Sweden model was better.

We don't have enough facts yet to say who responded well and who hasn't.

Array
 

real_skankhunt, you sometimes have valid points. But other times, I think you have this America-centric POV. That can be very dangerous because it makes you biased and possibly blind to certain facts. We should be facing what's wrong and fix them. There is no shame in admitting your country failed at something. If I were a patriotic person, I would argue that it is more patriotic to admit the failures and fix them than claiming that your country is still doing better (which is clearly not even close to being true because different metrics tell you different thigns and you have to look at why they happened). In a colder view: Facts don't give a shit about your feelings.

  • For COVID:

1) Spread of the Virus: The US did a horrible job handling it. The numbers and the reasons behind those numbers do show that.

Let's look at the facts. Places like Italy, Spain, and France have high mortality rate (10+%) because more older people were inflicted. In the US, the mortality rate is not as high (Still high at 5%) because the population distribution of those with COVID is more evened out. Now let's look at the population size and density. Overall, the US has a much lower population density compared to most European and Asian countries. Yet the number of confirmed cases in the US vs Italy is similar when you look at the percentage. When you put some East Asian countries in the mix like S.Korea, with such close proximity to China and huge influx of Chinese people, it's not even comparable. 10K cases in Korea vs. 800K in the US. But the US only has about 6~7 times more people than Korea. Sure you can say that majority of the cases in the US were from urban centers so comparing the population density isn't okay. Even if you discretely look at the urban population, the US still has one of the highest percentages in the world. Now there are other variables, which are hard to quantify, that were in play - ie) culturally acceptable distance among ppl (I'd hypothesize that in places like Italy, France, and Spain, the touchy-feely culture definitely had a role in the spread),

2) Supply chain at the time of the breakout.

When the virus broke out, different countries were at different status concerning the amount of masks, number of doctors per capita, avg number of patients each doctor can take care of effectively, ease of access to medical care, etc... The US started at a bad point - the US healthcare system, including the supply chain, was completely broken to start with. To me that shouldn't be attributed to any administration. But it should be attributed to the country as a whole: It's just laughable. Then there is another aspect to look at - how the supply chain after the virus. S. Korea was prepared. Virus breaks out, several confirmed cases, and boom thousands of tests are already available. Sure, the number of doctors per capital might be higher over there and it's one of the few countries that figured out universal healthcare without sacrificing quality. But does the US gets a break because it started at a bad point? NO FUCKING WAY. The US faced the swine flu pandemic 10 years ago. What happened to all the lessons learned? CDC is responsible for preparing for all possible scenarios (no matter how unlikely). They should've built up systems that allow the US to quickly have access to the necessary medical equipment, to produce reliable equipment at a very fast rate when pandemics and epidemics breakout, and much more. What did they but tinker around and suck on their thumbs hopelessly? I'm sure that there are many many talented individuals in the field of preventive medicine working in the US, but the current administration's ignorance completely fucked up the situation by deliberately ignoring the words of these talented individuals. WTF happened to meritocracy and listening to experts. When I look at this, I think the US is facing a crisis in the form of an egomaniac out for self-interest fooling people by claiming to be a populist. And of course all the people around to suck on the blood of this country like the leeches they are. But that's another story. Anyways, like Lloyd showed, the number of tests available per unit of people was laughably low. And Trump did BS about tests being available (Can't believe the fucking POTUS is so carefree about this shit).

  • Overall comments on how shitty the US government is at THINGS:

The US is amazing at many things but the government's administrative capabilities are laughable (with the exception of military and intelligence agencies). AND most of the times, the American excellence comes from individuals and private organizations, almost never the government. And if it does come from governments, they are most likely the state governments (like Texas with the creation of the UT system and promoting a business friendly environment). As far as I'm concerned, the US government rather has the tendency to screw things up - ie. making healthcare more expensive through regulations that it would've been cheaper in a completely free market (this is so backward), shitty status of most public schools.

How about the inefficiencies of the American government organizations at the very low level , that many people here would have experienced: Have you ever been to the DMV? Do you use the Post Office as your go-to mailing service? (They lose shit all the time).

Even more questions: Have you waited a whole year for simple immigration filings to get passed just to get a green card, especially when you have priority status and the waiting period of 3 years has been skipped? Have ever been stuck at Border Patrol office for half a day coming back from a trip to Canada after getting a green card, just because Border Patrol doesn't share data with USCIS (and it takes them half a fucking day to verify a green card status)? I have. And I'll let you know, that my immigration status then for the US government was "Top priority" as in the US gov't wanted me to live in the US and I still get treated like this, not because the US gov't intended to. But because they are so immensely horrible at their jobs. It's bearable in low-risk situations. But it's UNACCEPTABLE to have that kind of efficiency when it comes to the lives of millions of people.

 

I do think China is to blame for the situation overall, but once we figured it out it was on us to handle the situation properly which we did not. We suppressed testing to keep our numbers down since unlike China it's harder to fake numbers while testing. This caused many deaths that could have been avoided had we acted quickly. I heard NZ shut everything down when they had only 12 cases and now are apparently recovering better. NYC is not as easy to shutdown I get it, but had we just shut down for 2-4weeks back in January we could have reopened by now and rallied back in Q2. Cuomo is still hoping to open up in May which in my opinion is the dumbest thing to do considering there is no official treatment yet and we will be back where we are a few weeks later. After this is said and done we should absolutely not forget China's role in this and address it properly as the UK has stated they plan to do. But currently I agree with the OP we need to focus on the mess our governments (all levels) are creating.

 

China's initial suppression of the numbers and by proxy using the WHO to downplay it is definitely to blame for its initial global spread. But the deciding factor here in how serious the outbreak is the government and their policies.

 

Yes and now anti vaccine movement wants Fauci out and Trump's retweet of that is probably one of the dumbest moves considering what is going on. You have nurses saying their hospital is just fine.....well considering your county is 500 people I would assume so. The level of stupidity in humanity is really presenting its case right now.

 
Most Helpful

Those that want to put 100% of the blame on China for the spread in the U.S. have to admit that the Trump administration took the notoriously dishonest Xi administration at face value... The simple answer is that China is to blame for not tampering the outbreak, and the U.S. is to blame for not making better use of their multi-month warning..

However, from a U.S. perspective, I'm more worried about the next stages of our response than our first one. The American exceptionalism/individualism/libertarian mantra has benefited our country in many ways for 200 years, but is uniquely ill-suited for what will be required of our populace for the next two years. Asian and European countries are, in general, far smaller, denser, and submissive to government control/communal sacrifice than their American counterparts.

I'm worried many in urban America will heed the guidelines, but live in too dense of environments to return to normal life. (who is going to ride the subway anytime soon?). Rural america will largely ignore any government mandates, and their small hospital systems won't be able to support even a modest outbreak. And suburban america will fall somewhere in the middle, thinking they're cooperating but slowly laxxing their practices over time and inadvertently spreading the virus.

TLDR; an effective return to "regular life" will require far more personal sacrifice and government intervention than the average American will accept.

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."
 

I also worry if (when?) this spreads deeper into developing countries, who have poorer health care systems, and simply won't be able to take the extreme social distancing measures much of the first world has done.

I've been surprised to see them largely minimally affected so far (less initial seeding from international travel?) but doubt that will continue.

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."
 

Interesting post but I think you're asking us to believe a narrative that's very specific. Basically, US intelligence knew how bad it was going to be, and told the administration. Administration didn't care because of focus on staying in office (i.e. impeachment issue) but for some reason chose to ignore info that could cost them re-election. That seems inconsistent. And then US intelligence, being ignored by the administration about a serious matter, didn't leak it when leaking would be easy to do and would only save lives.

I am not an expert on the inner workings of government, in fact I'm weaker than most on that subject. So if others say that narrative is plausible, then fine. But from my vantage point it seems hard to believe.

 

Wouldn’t intelligence have leaked stories back then about how bad it really is? And let’s say the answer to that is no . . wouldn’t they leak stories now about how Trump didn’t listen to them? Both honest questions, I thought that’s how they operate. Hell maybe they even have leaked stuff that I missed.

 

I've never been one to tread with conspiracy theory rhetoric - I highly doubt US intelligence understood the full scope of the problem in China. We knew they were under reporting but not to the extent. However, I do believe, as do the majority of Americans, the administrations lack of precautionary measures is disgraceful and downright unethical. As you said, the virus has been headline news since mid-Jan. Christ, China built TWO hospitals by Feb 3. Meanwhile the US was bau - beaches filled, bars packed, no one cared.

So, I agree that this is a total failure of American institutions at every single level. Perhaps the worst collapse we'll experience in our lifetimes. The most memorable moment as of yet, which also exhibits corruption at all levels, is when Trump ignorantly assured Americans via twitter the US had everything under control and the stock market was looking "very good" to him. The s&p was at 2947.

 

And now the S&P is 2870 and we have fewer deaths per capita than nearly every single country in Western Europe. It sounds like the US did have things under control. God forbid the President try to not send people like OP into mass hysteria.

 

25,000 deaths and counting and you argue they had it under control? Nearly every major city is on lock down and still reporting thousands of NEW cases daily. You're delusional if you believe anything is under control.

I understand the fret of creating hysteria, but you do that in a honest, collective manner. You don't tell your people to buy the fucking dip on the brink of complete economic collapse.

 
thexfactor336:
4 Senators sold hundreds of thousands of dollars of personal stock after a January coronavirus briefing while the government itself sat on its hands for another 2 months. But sure, let's keep blaming China.

That does not change the fact that China deliberately lied and suppressed information and allowed its citizens to travel abroad even after its domestic lockdown of Hubei province.

 

I don't know why you see those stats as accurate. Most countries outside the west/europe/parts of asia can barely operate and run themselves, what makes you think they are even testing at all?

There are probably swaths of people dying in third world countries right now and you have no idea. If it's bad in the first world, I wonder how bad it is in the rest of it?

 

Some third world countries have handled this better than the US, that's straight up embarrassing. As this goes on, we will see third world countries with it completely out of control and mass death, but that's the expected outcome. What's not expected is the country that was supposedly "the #1 most prepared for a pandemic" fumbling this and having a response worse than any other developed nation in the world.

 

When school shooting happens, weapon manufacturers are not at fault. They marketed that the weapons are lethal and user beware.

Same idea, when China creates yet another virus and delay response, they are responsible for the thousands died in China but not in other countries. But in case you haven't graduated from at least a semi-target, here's a fact: virus freely transmits from one person to another. China did their part by destroying its economy and stopped the transmission internally. China is not responsible for what's up in the US whatsoever. The US is. They just made the weapon and it got into the US. Federal government and state governments are responsible for the death. Cuomo is also responsible for the death of so many New Yorkers. He should have acted much sooner.

 
Intern in :
When school shooting happens, weapon manufacturers are not at fault. They marketed that the weapons are lethal and user beware.

Same idea, when China creates yet another virus and delay response, they are responsible for the thousands died in China but not in other countries. But in case you haven't graduated from at least a semi-target, here's a fact: virus freely transmits from one person to another. China did their part by destroying its economy and stopped the transmission internally. China is not responsible for what's up in the US whatsoever. The US is. They just made the weapon and it got into the US. Federal government and state governments are responsible for the death. Cuomo is also responsible for the death of so many New Yorkers. He should have acted much sooner.

Nope. First, if you really think China "stopped" its internal transmission, then you are simply believing their data. Second, the Chinese government knowingly let its citizens travel abroad even when aware of the virus and its contagious nature. So yes, it is China's fault that the virus made its way into the U.S. and other countries.

 

Man, stop 1.5 billion people from traveling abroad when you are not sure how deadly this is (it's not deadly according to you) and how rapidly it spreads yet is not realistic. I mean, let's forget all the propaganda, just be honest, do you think it's realistic, and do you think any other country would stop its people from traveling abroad?

Also, China did not "stop" its internal transmission, you are right, but it for sure limited it. The data from China can lie, but the people in China going back to work don't lie.

 

My suggestion for you, don't over do it. Don't say stuff like China should stop people from traveling abroad. Instead, say stuff like China tried to cover it up in the first couple weeks, China downplayed the human to human transmission for 2 weeks. This will make you sound more credible.

Overplaying your rhetoric doesn't help, just look at that Chinese foreign ministry guy. This is propaganda 101 bro.

 

Not in the US but i think my country could be following the steps of the USA response to the pandemic as similar actions were taken by both government (severly downplaying the effects, underprepared, etc)

At times like this it is easy to "blame X because now were Y, if we did Z sooner it won't be this bad". Dang guys, lets just both acknowledge the fuckups and now lets find the best solution to contain, manage, and limit the spread of the virus while a vaccine/cure is in the works. I know people are upset since some of you feel like the government did not follow your beliefs and you became the victim of their incompetence.

But please, enough with the blaming and start to collectively be the part of the solutions not collaboratively add to the problem

Let's save people's live by staying at home and help our healthcare professional flattening the curve first. Then after all of this you could just create a battleground on the upcoming election and argue, blame, debate anything you want. Save lives and deal with the socioeconomic political ramifications later.

 

Hey Lloyid, so, do you think Fauci should be fired? Because up to the 3rd week of February, he was dismissing it as a non-issue.

I don't blame him, he had incomplete information and part of it was intentionally misleading. Hard to do your job when someone is lying to you.

The intelligence should have known better? Than what? A virus they didn't know?

Some other flaws in your reasoning: -Trump should have listenened to the intelligence briefing.... when you just admit intelligence was busy trying to removing him from office. How do you work like this? - You seem to accept that Chinese numbers are cooked, yet claim the US has the worst numbers (it really doesn't, see per capita as Skankhunt say, but that's not even the point).

Finally, it's easy to be that guy ex post. It's also worthless. Point me where you called this out in January, you'll have a point. Until then, stop being a cunt. You were as clueless as eveyone else.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
 
neink:
Hey Lloyid, so, do you think Fauci should be fired? Because up to the 3rd week of February, he was dismissing it as a non-issue.

I don't blame him, he had incomplete information and part of it was intentionally misleading. Hard to do your job when someone is lying to you.

The intelligence should have known better? Than what? A virus they didn't know?

Some other flaws in your reasoning: -Trump should have listenened to the intelligence briefing.... when you just admit intelligence was busy trying to removing him from office. How do you work like this?

What the hell are you smoking? "Intelligence was trying to remove him from office". No they weren't. The US intelligence community did their job and reported on a massive abuse of power by the President. Trump appointees are briefing him - and it doesn't matter what the hell else is going on, Mr Trump is the President and is not supposed to be a petulant child. Dealing with political opposition is part of the job. If Hillary had won, should she have refused to listen to intelligence briefings because the intelligence community had tried to "remove her from office" during the endlessly repetitive and unnecessary Benghazi hearings?

- You seem to accept that Chinese numbers are cooked, yet claim the US has the worst numbers (it really doesn't, see per capita as Skankhunt say, but that's not even the point).

This is true, but also ignores the larger issue. Which to be fair, @Lloyd Blankfein" misses as well. The Chinese can be in the wrong here, and Mr Trump as well. This is very obviously not a scenario where only one player is the cause of the whole thing. Hard to blame the Chinese for a pandemic spreading, that's the nature of it. They should be roundly criticized for the obvious fact that they mislead the international community about it and suppressed accurate info from escaping.

But Mr Trump's "travel ban" was obviously for the sole purpose of scoring political points, since one-point-of-origin bans don't actually do anything, which anyone or common sense could have told him. His campaign to downplay or ignore the entire thing, even when it was obviously on our shores, is frankly criminal in my book, and his cronies at Fox News seem to agree, if the reports about their concerns over lawsuits are any indication. Just because "China started it" (in playground parlance), doesn't excuse the fact that Mr Trump was incompetent, callous, or mendacious at every subsequent step of the way. He's the President, this is his job, he doesn't get to fob off responsibility when times get tough. How there is a single person in the entire country defending him after he told the world on national television that none of this is his responsibility, is beyond me.

Finally, it's easy to be that guy ex post. It's also worthless. Point me where you called this out in January, you'll have a point. Until then, stop being a cunt. You were as clueless as eveyone else.

Not as clueless as Mr Trump, who very much had this info in January. Criticizing and evaluating our leaders on their performance and merits is very much allowed. I wouldn't expect any random citizen to know about how bad this could have been in January. We know the Trump Administration was informed of what this could have been on multiple occasions, and the President still used it as a platform to score political points with his base. Unlike what conservative news media would have you believe, debating oversight over a stimulus package isn't "playing politics" in a time of emergency. You know what is? Using the time that could have been spent preparing for a pandemic outbreak to declare that a fucking virus was a hoax cooked up by political opponents. Though even that isn't as deplorable as crowing about how the Nielsen ratings for your press conferences, in which you deliberately lie or mislead, are through the roof, all while Americans are dying as a result of your own incompetence.

 
Ozymandia:

Using the time that could have been spent preparing for a pandemic outbreak to declare that a fucking virus was a hoax cooked up by political opponents. T

In before all the usual Trump lackeys scream "he didn't call the virus hoax, he called the Democratic alarm to the virus a hoax!" (which actually further undermines the narrative they've been trying to create that the two parties treated the initial outbreak the same)

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."
 

If Fauci was really dismissing it February, that means he's part of the issue.

Trump had multiple intelligence briefings, starting in January, which clearly outlined that this was an issue. He ignored them for weeks until it was too late in mid-March. That's on him.

Chinese numbers are cooked, we don't know the extent. American numbers are cooked too because we haven't tested enough people. Who the hell knows which is higher, but compared to other nations the US response is a disgrace.

I DID post about this, on January 22nd here

 

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Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
 

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6
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dosk17
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GameTheory
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CompBanker
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DrApeman
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10
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Jamoldo
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success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”