Dubai vs. Hong Kong

I find your geographic classifications rather problematic. The term 'Asiatic' would be inclusive of the Arab world. Thus that term has no modern relevance outside of academic anthropology. Stick with 'Chinese'.

I think that Hong Kong or even Tokyo would be a little more credible and probably has better exit opps. At the same time, Dubai is a fantastic place to live and might give you a more interesting story/opportunities.

Dubai is looking to diversify it's income base, so that's why they want tourists for their luxury real estate of which the land you will never own. that's why you hear deals of dubai PE like liverpool soccer etc. because they know the black gold will not from the tree for ever at these current prices...so for work experience go for HK, for sure

If you're working at an i-bank getting a Visa in America is not a problem. Tons of European friends of mine got jobs at banks in the US.

steady state, this is probably true in the case of a EU passport holder, starting off somewhere in Europe @ a top I Bank and relocating to NY. But when you apply to those firms in NY out of Europe or elsewhere (for me, Shanghai) for an entry-level job, some of them have you talk with the London office, saying the Visa stuff is too boring when they just hired someone, but still saying they're very interested in talkin to you. But being sent there later on definitely happens a lot.

Every try Canary Wharf in London?

Hong Kong is the hub to China. And Hong Kong has a better culture (for me anyway).

first, the i would imagine ib industry in hong kong to be much more advanced and developed than in dubai/middle east (actually, dubai is not yet the centre of middle east finnace the way london is for europe and new york is for the usa). think about the work that you will be doing. apart from a couple of acquisitions by istithmar and dubai international capital, who exactly is tearing up the world of private equity from dubai? sure there are a few local pe firms as well as in bahrain (who are actually more active in cross boarder PE than the dubai guys), but most of their acquisition teams are in london or new york. i'm pretty sure that most of the IBs advising on cross boarder deals are also doing so with support from NYC/London.

also, think about investing locally in the middle east. if you are based in dubai doing pe or advising on pe deals then your coverage will likely be the middle east as dubai's economy is small. how much deal flow do you think you will see? what kind of deals? will you be working for a firm that will lead on these deals?

re: skyscrapers, well, all i want to say is that have a look at thailand to see all fo the unfinsished skycrapers that were abandoned after the crash in the late 90s. i'm not saying it will re-occur but you need to have a better idea of the region before you decide to commit.

most people looking at dubai see it as a gateway to gaining access to the capital available in the middle east. however, firms in bahrain has always been active in this area and a lot of NYC/London based bankers fly into the region visiting Riyadh (saudi), dubai, bahrain, kuwait and qatar. they don't need to have a huge presence in the region to raise money.

there are opportunities in the middle east, but you need to dig deeper to find out what they are and how it might benefit your career in the long term. Read through this weeks and last weeks issues of the economist, there were quite a few good articles on dubai, finance and the middle east.

also, within most big investment banks, middle east coverage is from london and under EMEA (europe middle east and africa) or CEEMEA (CEntreal and easter europe, middle east and africa) and tends to be seperate from Asia Pacific.

if you want to play PE or IB the middle east, try to get in with a top group (carlyle, BB ibs, etc...) as opposed to going with smaller less well known firms.

Dubai - Strong regional players: Istithmaar, DIC, Abraaj Capital, SHUAA Capital. As relinquo said, their portfolios are largely comprised of Gulf country companies, and they landscape is drying up quite quickly. Now these firms are casting the net eastward and have more interest in Asian firms than Western. So a move to HK and then to Dubai would be ideal. Recently, a JPM banker told the NY Times their Middle East office has ONE banker who has experience in HK and speaks Arabic. He also joked that they keep him tied to his desk to keep headhunters and competitors from poaching him.

Bahrain: Investcorp and Arcapita. Investcorp: leading PE firm, formerly owned Gucci (claim to fame), Tiffany's, Saks 5th Avenue, American Tire, Ebel, Chaumet. Excellent track-record and a focus on America/Europe (although they recently launched a Gulf Initiative). That said, Bahrain is where they do their investment placement (amongst oil magnates and merchant families). Real work goes on in London and NY. Same goes for Arcapita (Islamic PE), impressive recent growth, but dealflow goes through Atlanta and London, with Bahrain as the placement hub.

If you're looking to do IB in the middle east, I'd again agree with relinquo - go for a BB - MS and DB have particularly robust operations in that region.

Middle East formula looks like this: Raise capital? go to Qatar/Saudi/Kuwait. Need a financial intermediary? Go to Bahrain (although they're very, very, quickly losing ground to Dubai). Want to invest? Go to Dubai. Hope this helps.

good points overall sexonwax.

hah relinquo, I'm just as averse to investing in dubai as you are. Its a sustained bubble at most, and Dubai's experience with the equity markets last year reminds us that the risk of contagion to the real estate sector is ever-present. I have little faith in Dubai's resilience over the medium term and even less over the long.

The formula I alluded to is what the words of wisdom are on the street and it is admittedly replete with misinformation).

You're right about Abraaj as well, as I said the ME market is running dry - paucity of potential acquisitions, and an abundance of lemons that need restructuring. Don't know how this will fare for ME PE firms looking forward, but my guess is a greater focus on the east and perhaps a few stabs at clubbing & flipping.

re: IB's in Dubai. Most M&A/Capital raising has to this date been done by local (rather more inexperienced IB's), but MS is gaining momentum having opened up shop in the DIFC. They've been advising bids for Premier Oil in the UK ($1.9B) and last i heard they had 5 IPO's in the pipeline to be listed on the DIFX. They've also doubled revenue in less than 6 months. Rothschild, Goldman, Lehman have all got licenses for the DIFC too. As much as I think Dubai is a shitty place to invest right now, IPO's are hotter than ever before and the 'big is back' mentality has hit the Arab world - so M&A is very much on the list. But more than anything else, financing is where these IB's are looking to make all their money - particularly in infrastructure finance: about 55% of the GCC loan market is in project finance, and the BB's have arrived to add liquidity to and capitalize on Islamic debt offerings.

Are the comps done in Dubai or in London? What I hear, and this is entirely anecdotal, is that they're starting to take on a more active role in Dubai (bankers being staffed in Dubai usually have western experience and the office tries to hold its own). The exception, i hear, is when the deal is cross-border, in which case London takes charge.

Relinquo - just as an aside, you seem to be quite privy to whats going on in the GCC - have you had any experience in the region?

even though i haven't invested in the middle east, i have been asked to look at some deals there. i have travelled throughout the region and have friends who cover the middle east (in the GCC & from london). also, i tend to read up on what's going on in the region. MEED, etc...

if i were to cover the middle east i would like to focus on cross boarder work (principal investing & advisory) or on local work with a BB firm doing advisory work or a group like carlyle/investcorp to do principal investing/PE, i.e. a firm connected enough to get deals. this would narrow one's options significantly, but it kind of fits in with the work that i would like to do. for more options, project finance & DCM opportunities are good places to look at as well.

you made some good points about project finance. it seems to me that the debt side of the ME market is what really needs to develop further and perhaps is where the BBs can grow a sustainable business. there is also talk about large scale CMBS issuance in the near future (whether there is enough spread and whether investors will buy into this remains to be seen).

good points about the equity markets as well. did you read the Nomura article over a year ago when people were still pouring into the equity market? it was pretty good and it is interesting to see how the markets have performed in the past year or so.

we'll have to wait and see if DIFX really develops into a proper capital market. one where companies want to issue securities that investors want to invest in and trade. this isn't something that can be entirely dictated by the ruling authorities.

i wonder how committed the BBs are to the region. MS seems to be serious, as is DB, but i wonder about some of the others. time will tell, i suppose.

Long China