Equal representation in Banking. (Empirical Open Discussion).
Let me start off by saying, I am by no means an expert at the topic above, I just hold an interest in the thoughts of others. I do not want to diminish those who have entered the industry by using programmes as they are all qualified far beyond what I could ever hope to be.
I have studied this field in my final year of university, and having discussed this subject in my classes on gender biases and discrimination, It piqued my interest. That is when I turned to the thought of the banking industry and programmes dedicated to specific groups or people. And to be clear, I do not facilitate, keep personal biases or discriminate about anyone from any race, gender, ethnicity etc. However this field of discussion did peak my interest.
I believe the real fix to the solution of hiring from certain groups in order to fill quotas, is based upon allowing constant applications of "options" like those that are readily available to those who are more fortunate, throughout their education. Therefore after several years you will begin to see a lack of need for the programmes that are held by many BB's and other firms currently. Thusly allowing only to hire those who suit the roles most. and if it would work, you would see relativly reflective distribution of ; Race, Ethnicity, and Gender within fields due to the use of giving those generations options (Reflecting Country percentages on those figures and overall natural ability). Until that point, it is pertinent to keep programmes in place that allow for role models of all backgrounds in the sector.
Therein lies the question; How do we deal with personal 'hidden' bias when considering candidates until that point. I have been discussing this idea with my sister, who is a Junior consultant in Cybersecurity (a heavily male dominated field) and we consider it to be a thought provoking matter.
Any ideas are welcome.
Hope you all are keeping safe.
firstly, everyone has inherent biases whether you know it or not (Influence, Chialdini).
secondly, no ones gives a crap about diversity. it's a box ticking exercise to subdue bad press in the time of peak wokeness.
'minorities' are now overrepresented in finance. if you live in a country thats 97% white, how is it real diversity if 25% of your workforce is non-white?
additionally, finance is suited to male characteristics... increased testosterone? higher confidence? more competitive? aggression?
"finance is suited to male characteristics"
My guy, we created the world of finance as we know it. Of course "male characteristics" dominate, if 80% of us in this field are male. Definition of a circular and, frankly, stupid argument right there.
the point that you missed was that men are better athletes than females, you can literally check male vs female performance in sports and compare if you like.
now, because you cannot similiarly see how 10x testosterone in males brains affect them in business vs females full of oestrogen (sensitivity, apprehension etc) , its apparently a circular argument.
males dominating business is not a world wide male conspiracy as you allude to, and have been influenced by wokeness in the subversive press to believe. its just reality.
Yeah if we added female quotas to mining, construction and logging, they'll become more compassionate. Imagine being you. Jesus Christ.
according to the 2019 census bureau estimates, the u.s. is 60% white. are there 40% minorities in finance?
uh did you mean south africa my guy?
Are we considering Jewish people part of the minority? I dont think 60% of the people I meet in banking are WASPs.
It's pretty easy. Takes names off resumes and outsource the decision making to someone a step removed. Double blind the entire process.
The problem with hiring isn't "diversity". The problem is that to get a job, in finance especially, is 100% a game of who you know. Half the positions are being set aside because Managing Director John Smith has a golfing buddy whose kid is just dying to get into finance, and so he puts in a good word, and what do you know, that's one of your analysts right there. Rinse and repeat a few times and all of a sudden you're looking at a vastly narrowed field of opportunity. None of which would matter re: diversity, except for the fact that we socialize with people similar to us in career and education and upbringing, and since John Smith probably got his position in a manner similar to this new kid, it means that generationally you're self-selecting for a very socially inbred group of people. And given that we're within a couple generations of legal discrimination being a thing, it's no surprise that people of color have a lot of trouble getting these jobs without explicit help.
I agree with this to a certain extent. I also think that it brings up another interesting question. Is the exclusion and discrimination really based on race or is it that these social circles happen to be usually dominated by a certain race?
If you're a black kid from the Bronx, you're not in that social circle. But if you're a white trash kid from Wyoming, you're also not in that social circle.
The real test of purely racial discrimination would be to see whether the poor white kid from Wyoming had a better chance of landing a role than a poor black kid from the Bronx. Anecdotally from the many discussions on this website about target vs non-target, I would argue that kid from Wyoming has very very low chances unless he managed to jump into a certain social circle via entrance to a prestigious Northeast university.
True but that white kid does not have to deal with getting dinged because of his race. Both are disadvantaged but it adds a different dimension to the binary choice when considering the lack of representation of black people in finance.
Well are you certain that someone is getting ding because of race. That's what I'm trying to bring up here. As Oz notes, being in a certain social circle helps a lot with recruitment. That social circle happens to be mostly white. So are you getting dinged because of your race or because you aren't in that social circle? I don't think that it's completely clear. And if both have some truth, there is still the question of whether its 80% social circle or 20% race or 50/50? It's just not that clear cut.
It is very related to the socio-economic position. Poor minorities are getting screwed because rich minorities still prefer to be held to a different standard and isolate themselves despite being the same race. It is a mixture of both the social circle and race because the truth is that banking is still homogenous and it is easier to ding a person that would not fit the "culture" based on first impressions which are always going to favour the poor white student.
Well, that's half my point. A white trash kid from Wyoming does not "fit" in the same culture as elite prep school kids in NYC. In fact, it's kind of racist to assume all white people immediately share the same culture because of the color of their skin.
EDIT: Just a side note but perhaps interesting to discuss as well. There are not many minorities in IB, but guess how many white people I've worked with in IB from the following states: MT, SD, ND NE, NE, ID, WV, NM, and WY.....zero.....Most southern states might know 1 or 2 people. The target / non-target system alone basically shuts out 80% of the country from even having a shot.
No, I am mentioning culture as in banking and finance culture where the majority is white not elite prep school culture. The poor white student does not fit in to the prep school culture but can be invisible into the homogeneous workplace purely based off race while the black student can not.
The culture of banking is elite northeast culture...that is why I'm talking about it....it is not "white culture" whatever that is. That's the point I'm making.
EDIT: I don't know about you, but I don't immediately hit it off with any rando white person. Just because they're white doesn't mean that we have shit in common.
This, the statement that banking and finance culture is representative of white culture is very broad brushed and actually racist as you pointed out.
Think about how many different regions and cultures of white people there are around the world. It's about the same as saying Korean and Chinese culture are representative of Asian culture as a whole.
I think that finance as you said is representative of elitist northeastern culture and if you wanted to segment that culture I believe that WASP's would be the way to characterize a fair amount of those white people.
This is going to be a spicy take but it seems like if you're a minority these days you're impervious to being called or labeled a racist no matter how ignorant a statement you make or how ignorant your actions are.
I'll give an example my uncle married my aunt who happens to be black a year and a half ago (they live in Los Angeles). From the moment they started dating people in her family refused to speak to her (all of them live in CA). When they announced their engagement many in her family told her that she was dead to them and her parents refused to go to the wedding (they still haven't talked to her more than a year later). If the situations were reversed and a white family pulled the same things my aunts family did it would be on every news outlet in the country 24/7 for the next year.
This is just one example and I'm not trying to say there aren't examples in the other direction because there absolutely are. I just find it troubling that nobody is willing to challenge minority groups when they make racist/homophobic comments.
Do you actually think for a second a black kid is getting dinged due to race? Have you even one time sat in on these interviews? I have been explicitly asked to not ask kids from top targets technicals because we are worried they still won’t get them right. The kids of others within finance are almost always far stronger and more prepared.
I've never seen any data on it, but I suspect you're right that for a poor kid from Laramie, it's going to be an equally uphill climb as for the kid from Melrose in the Bronx. That being said, when we talk about "race" (a term I dislike), you can't escape the fact that the white kid from Wyoming is, well, white, and thus gets grouped in with a larger crowd of people who, on average, have a lot more opportunities. Yes, that really sucks for Laramie Larry. It's why any system which makes decisions based on any criteria is going to be unfair on an individual level. Someone will always complain, and rightly so, that they were more qualified for some reason than someone else. The underlying point is that pretty much any person of color is going to have an exceptionally difficult time getting a job on Wall Street, and you can directly trace that back to policies and attitudes put in place by Americans who are still living, no less! As a group, that is a situation more deserving of an active attempt at redress. I know there has been a great deal of historical scholarship on how to reconcile poor whites with policies that are aimed at disenfranchising black folks, who for a long time were pretty much universally poor.
But yes, I think the argument that economic barriers are more meaningful than ethnic ones when it comes to getting hired in finance is a compelling one.
I agree with this. Fully. Sad that it will never happen
Honestly finance isn't even the type of industry where this dynamic will really matter given structural headwinds. Sure, we can try to improve the diversity in a shrinking pie but it will be worth much less in 30yrs than it is today.
If you really wanted to make an impact, you'd focus on tech where the pie is massively growing & where the effects of increased diversity will really matter
oohh this is a very sensitive topic but I do have my own opinion on this
just to start, diversity is great like from a women perspective there should be opportunities for women to be in it. also for minority groups that are less prvielegd, they should be exposed to finance to help even the playing field.
HOWEVER, based on my previous experience seeing how diversity hiring is done, its kinda a joke how easy it is. I know some people might get offended by this or not agree but I think that banks just don't give a rats ass about diversity. they just do it to please shareholders and check a box.
Why is nobody complaining about the lack or representation among white and Asian people in the NBA!?! The people there are 90% black and they’re making millions every year! Why don’t they have some quotas there?
Or could it just be that different races or groups of people are better at and/or more interested in different careers?
LMAO this idea is just overt racism.
If white and asian people grew up playing basketball at the same rate that black Americans do, there probably would be a more equal representation. Sports is such an exception and a dumb argument.
Why would white people be innately better than black people at banking?
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Equal representation in terms of the way demographics of that country is a silly nonsense.
Equal representation in the applicant pool is actually a good goal.
I think the topic misses the point. Our elites are so obsessed with diversity, equity, and inclusion that they've either purposely or through blindness missed the forest through the trees. All of these DEI efforts ultimately help the racial minority elite. If you add a black person to your board of directors, that's helping an elite black person gain more access to money, power, and influence. But the entire premise is flawed--the premise is that the black board member, for example, will provide insight or something into the larger black community and will seek to influence the company toward their needs. But that premise assumes that elite white people have the interests of poor or middle class white people at heart, which we know isn't true (in finance hiring, for example, elite whites hire elite whites who are part of their network; they aren't hiring the smart kids out of West Virginia University). So why would we hold elite blacks, Latinos, women, etc. to a different standard and assume that they have the interest of the common person at heart?
In other words, the efforts of DEI serve little purpose other than ensuring even better jobs and positions for black, Latino, women, etc. elites (people who will do just fine regardless) but serve no real purpose in bettering the lives of the mass of people. Elite, corporate DEI is an exercise in religious hypocrisy and little more.
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