Hi everyone! I'm new to this board, so hello to all. I'm 23, study Physics in London and I've just received an offer to start on a 2008 graduate programme in an equity derivatives sales team in London. I have two summers of experience within m&a (at an engineering company and an investment bank in London). I received an offer from my team this past summer, but I decided to interview for sales/trading positions anyway, because the culture of working day and night (weekends included) in m&a was a bit too much for me; I could not enjoy life at work as well as life with my fiancee and family.
I was told that hours within equity derivatives sales would be more like 6am to 7pm Monday-Friday. I'm very willing to work hard (I think 65 hours per week is plenty of time to work hard), but I don't want to be in the office regularly past 9 and definitely not regularly on weekends. Can anyone confirm what kind of hours are standard for a first year analyst?
I also have an offer from one of the Big Four companies (audit). The lower pay at the Big Four doesn't bother me, but I am actually much more interested in equity derivatives than audit, and would love to take the investment banking offer. However, I'm not willing to sacrifice every hour of every day for the opportunity.
Any advice from those who have been through a graduate analyst programme would be very much appreciated!
Fandango
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
Email one of the guys you interviewed with, and ask them to meet you for a drink after work near the office. Ask whatever questions you wish...
word of warning... sales involves a lot of out of office activities so really your hours are way longer than that!
yea but sales time out of the office is in bars and restaurants. not a bad way to spend your time, running around with clients getting drunk and chasing chicks.
not to hijack but what do u guys think of EQD sales in general ie long term outlook, compensation, exit opps, etc.
not all of sales time out of the office is that, but a good amount. It's fun for a little bit but can get old after a while. A lot of the senior guys just wanted to spend some time alone or with family instead of being fake all through the week
Thanks for the responses. Although I'd love to be at home in the evenings, I'm sure I could deal with some time in bars and restaurants with clients. Are office hours generally about 13 hours per day, Monday to Friday?
Also, do analysts really spend much time out with clients at bars and restaurants? Wouldn't analysts be finishing off work in the office as the MDs and VPs go out with clients?
I've assumed that equity derivative sales is quite a decent area to go into (in terms of outlook, etc). But this is what I've been told by people working in the field. Anybody else have an opinion?
Fandango
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
The VP I know is generally in around 7-7:30AM and out around 5:30-6 but I'm sure it varies. I can't say much about out of office stuff.
X13 (or anyone else), do you know any analysts? Any idea about their normal office hours? Cheers.
Fandango
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
In around 7-745. Out by 6 usually. I love the hours, it's nice having the evenings during the week to actually have a hobby, time to go out, or just a chance to chill out. Waking up early took a little getting used to but you get into a routine and I find the morning relaxing. I get in, have a bowl of cereal and a coffee while preparing for the open and catching up on news. Oh yea, no weekends, ever.
To avoid starting another thread, I'll my question here:
Are equity derivatives going to be hit by the increasing lack of confidence in "complex" products, or will corporates flock to equity derivatives to hedge their market exposures in these volatile times?
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
One of the huge draws for the product going forward is the high level of transparency so complexity is less of an issue. Good article on the future of equity deriviatives here (registration required)
http://www.efinancialnews.com/archive/keyword/equity_derivatives/2/cont…
Eq Derivs had a great year last year. They do a lot of work with institutional investors like insurance companies and pension plans who want get some insurance on their portfolio. Also, hedge funds that are trying to make a volatility play or take a position will use OTC derivs as well.
How about corporates? What's the size of the corporate market compared to institutional investors (I'm assuming it's small)? Is corporate sales on the private side of the chinese wall? Do the corporate sales guys make less money because they're selling to less people?
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
X13, that's great hours. Are you in NYC? I'm assuming London hours would be similar. Coming from IBD, an 11-12 hour day (55-60 hour week) would be awesome!
Anybody else have similar experiences?
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
yea, NYC. Our London guys do similar hours. Ultimately it really comes down to what markets you are covering. Some guys in london will end up staying a lot later if they cover US products so it varies but at the end of the day, you're still much better off than IBD
Cheers.
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
eh no big deal just 55-60 hours a week. Its funny because i would say probably 80% of americans would be bitching and complaining forever about those hours. Europeans even more so since they in general work less than their american counterparts. But thats why front office finance makes ridiculous money, or atleast one of the reasons.
I'm European, but I think 55-60 hours should be alright. I'm not sure when I went crazy, but it might have been during my IBD internship... =)
I did an internship a couple years ago at a place where the working week was strictly 37.5 hours. If you clocked up any extra minutes/hours, you were expected to use them to leave the office early on another day (or just not come in at all). That way it was made sure that nobody worked more than 37.5 hours per week on average over the year. And the money wasn't bad (banking base, no real bonus). So I've experienced two extremes, and 55-60 doesn't sound too bad.
"It is a fine thing to be out on the hills alone. A man can hardly be a beast or a fool alone on a great mountain." - Francis Kilvert (1840-1879)
"Ce serait bien plus beau si je pouvais le dire à quelqu'un." - Samivel
7-6 ny analyst hrs -sometimes you have to get in earlier though. typically analysts are going to have a bunch of morning responsibilities - sending out reports etc - so the hard and fast rule at my desk was always to just be in before your associate was.
Equity Derivatives Salestrading (Originally Posted: 01/20/2011)
I have the opportunity to join an equity derivatives salestrading desk and therefor i would be glad to get some insight into this exact role:
1.) What is an ED Salestrader exactly doing, and how does it differ from a classic ED sales guy?
2.) Do salestraders just do some additional trade execution or do they make markets as well? in which amount does the sales aspect itself differ between the two?
3.) Last but not least, would you recommend this position? thoughts about EDs and their potential in general? maybe any info on salary and bonuses relative to other desk categories
Any help would be greatly appreciated:
ED Salestrader are a mix between sales and trading, as in they are there for market color, execution but also idea pitching. They don't really make markets as they do not take on risk, thats the traders job, the salestraders generally work orders that can be easily executed in the market. The line between sales and salestrader is a bit more apparent in cash equities where the sales team is much more research oriented, with derivs its a bit more of a mixup to be honest and really depends on the specific desk.
Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable taking a straight salestrading gig (ie just there for market color and execution) because I think this is the first job that is going to be wiped out with automation imo. However, it also has some of the best hours on the floor and I have met a salestrader who pulled in 3 mil + because he basically brought all the clients with him wherever he went.
Eagle please PM me the name of the firm im curious if its the firm I did my SA with. If so that is a WILD desk.
I disagree with derivstrading about it disappearing with automation. Buyside guys will still want to use salestraders to work the orders they dont have time to babysit. Bank guys still want to be able to do crosses and having the networks that Inter Dealers provide works best.
What do you guys think of when i say "Equity Derivatives Sales"? (Originally Posted: 02/14/2010)
Im talking pretty interesting equity dervis...whacky and innovative, and the desk pretty much touches them all...options, equities, fx...ETF, close-end funds i have a knack with ppl, and know the markets fucking well...but i still have a nerdy part of me that knows can trade.. can i exit into trading down the line (dont expect to, but just-in-case)?
i just want opinions...all kinds
thanks
Moving from sales to trading is pretty rare, although the more involved the salesman is with the pricing (which can be the case with more exotic derivatives in my experience) the more prepared you'd likely be for the transition.
i would be pretty involved....but its not like i WANT to make the change...just in case.. any longterm pittfalls or pigeonholing? i know the money is sick
I think of one of my old roommates worked in sales on the Structured Products desk at Goldman Sachs. Bright kid; made the firm $10 million during his internship by coming up with the idea for a new product.
I'm not sure how easy it will be to become a market-maker (I haven't seen that happen before), but a salesperson gets to have contacts with a lot of people on the buy-side. If you're known for having a good feel for the markets, you can definitely land a gig in investment management.
I think a lot of college students who think they want to be "traders" really want to be portfolio managers- people who buy undervalued stocks, hold them for a few weeks or months, and then sell the stock. If that's something you'd enjoy doing, equity sales would be a great place to work.
I definitely want to be a portfolio manager. Are you saying equity sales is a good place to start? Can one fairly easily transfer from equity sales to buy-side investment management?
Being a math/computer geek on the trading side, I don't have as much first-hand knowledge as I'd like to give you this advice, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of exit opps from sales into portfolio management.
A sales guy's job is a heckuvalot more than just maintaining relationships with clients. He's got to drive deal flow by calling people up when their position changes, and sometimes when a stock looks really cheap. Make enough good calls on which stocks are going up and going down, and folks on the buy side tend to start respecting your thinking on the markets. If you can't get into portfolio management immediately, you can always go back for an MFin and have a whole bunch of friends on the buy-side who know how smart you are.
jimbo, you in the states right?
anyway, thanks jimbo...it dont matter anyway. Sales is what i want to do anyway...plus i would be creating and actually structuruing the derivs...so its damn interesting..
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