Hello all, I could do with some fashion advice here. I am male, in my late 20s, and starting as an IB associate in NY this year. I want some advice on whether you know of any good brands for work clothes, as well as clothes for casual wear/clubbing.
I guess I do want to appear fashionable, although I've read elsewhere on this board that it doesn't matter what you wear, as long as you don't stick out like a sore thumb.
Further, if there is one men's fashion magazine that I should read just to know the trends out there, what should I be reading?
Most important key to dressing well is buying clothes that fit (spend the money on getting your suits either made-to-measure or tailored when you buy them off the rack -- a $500 suit that fits well will always look better than a $3000 suit that fits poorly) and not looking like Christopher from The Sopranos -- no red or black shirts, solid white ties, etc...
As far as fit goes, I like to have my suit sleeves short enough to show a bit of shirt cuff (and my shirt shouldn't go past the beginning of my thumb) and very little break in my pants. When your pants start bagging at your shoes, or your suit sleeves are too long, it looks very sloppy.
As far as brands go, try to buy suits that are fully canvassed -- they drape better and are more durable.
But then again, I see a lot of people here dress like shit, and apparently it hasn't hurt their careers too much.
I believe Zara is a decently popular brand at entry/junior levels.
GQ is a well-known men's fashion magazine - so check it out.
It's nice to see fashion conscious bankers - from a female's persepective :)
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laxbanks, were you trying to say that one should or should not get button down shirts?
He means don't get shirts that have those weird button-downs on the collars.
Button down collars are fine for business casual, but should not be worn with a suit.
a highly similar topic for interns, which is equally relevant for a new associate such as yourself, can be found here:
http://wallstreetoasis.com/forums/for-all-those-fashionsummer-intern-at…
this very topic has been discussed extensively on these fora
I tailored five shirts yesterday and asked for:
(a) French cuff-linked shirts, and (b) my initials to be inscribed on the cuffs.
Are these acceptable fashion in New York, or are these mistakes? I can still change my instructions to the tailor if I get some replies soon ;)
Especially for (a), should I go for the usual button types or are cuff links acceptable for daily wear in the office?
Thanks!
I'm personally very against monograms, though I'm not sure what the consensus is; I'd assume generally against monograms. I've got several French cuffs, but I've been reading that it's less appropriate for entry level people. Not sure, so I certainly won't be wearing them on my first day.
I still don't get the whole "French Cuffs are inappropriate for analysts" thing.
I think french cuffs are fine but monograms seem a little over the top. I think its more about your attitude.
For example, if you come across as arrogant, people might then say "Oh, and he wears cuff links and has monogrammed shirts. He thinks he's a hot shot". So these things can reaffirm people's notions that you are being arrogant. Honestly though, I don't think people give a sh1t what you are wearing.
i don't think it is in the best taste to have monograms on french cuffs. first of all, placing the monogram in an area as prominent as the cuff is questionable, where conservative tastes suggest that there are better places to put it (see the following paragraph). secondly, monograms on the french cuffs cause a distraction not only to the cufflinks but to your timepiece as well, presuming that you wear it on your left hand. i can't decide whether placing a monogram on a french cuff shirt is inappropriate for junior ranks or simply in poor taste -- right now, i'm thinking it's more the latter, but perhaps both. better to keep it simple and stick to the basics.
additionally, my posting from 1/12/08 on the very topic of monograms offers the following advice (see http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/monogrammed-shirts-for-analysts):
"i believe that monograms are fine no matter your rank. however, i notice that the occasional distaste for people that have monogrammed shirts tends to stem from the fact that the monograms are located in a very prominent area so that it actually looks tacky or ostentatious (when in fact, dress shirts had long been considered underwear until the pre-world war II era, so the thought of a monogram as an apparent means to "show off" seems rather ridiculous if you think about it).
in my view, if you're going to have a monogram, keep it simple and discreet. usually people will have it centered on the welt of the pocket assuming there is one; otherwise, have it just a few inches from the shirt's placket or above the waistline. i guess the poinit of it all is that a monogram is a nice touch, but i don't think it is something that should be used to deliberately draw a viewer's attention. subtlety is the key."
So I've already stated my distaste for them, but does anyone know what the "authority" (whoever that may be) has to say about monograms? Is there an authoritative guide to how analysts should dress (well)?
To be sure, I've seen pretty poorly-dressed analysts, more girls than guys in fact (though this topic is far more difficult for girls than it is for guys). Can anyone say if there are concrete ramifications of dressing poorly - wrinkled shirts and pants, slept-in looking clothes, for instance?
the topic of fashion has been covered extensively in these fora -- essentially more than is even warranted as evidenced by the frequent repetition of information (both correct and incorrect). the most important thing is for analysts to look presentable -- other than that, analysts should be focused on keeping their head down and doing a good job -- and that's it. no need to obsess over little details in terms of clothing -- as a general rule of thumb, if in doubt, the person is simply better off NOT going for the item in question.
however, since you are curious about "authoritative" sources, i offer these suggestions:
(1) alan flusser - "dressing the man" (2) josh karlen - "the indispensible guide to men's clothing" (3) numi (...j/k)
there are no concrete or codified ramifications (although there really should be) -- people are more likely to make a mental note of someone's insulting appearance than to call them out on it, unless it is truly disgraceful
Here's some guidelines (at least in my opinion):
Two suits is good enough to start with -- one navy, one charcoal gray. Stick to single breasted, two- or three-button suits. In terms of patterns, solid is the safest choice, but if you're fashion forward you can try some pinstripes or chalkstripes. Key with a suit is fit more than anything else. An ill fitted $3,000 suit looks WAY worse than a $800 suit that fits you like a glove - ironically, an ill fitted suit makes it look cheaper than it may be.
Pant suits: avoid single- or double-pleats as they're very '90s and '80s, plus they are unflattering. Flat front trousers are more flattering and slimming.
Suit jacket: as said before, 2- or 3-single button is fine (just always leave the bottom button unbuttoned). In the back, you have the option of a single- or double-vent (double-vent is more Euro). Traditionally, American suits tend to be boxy -- the jacket falls straight down from the shoulder, whereas Euro suits tend to be cut closer towards the waist, giving it a more tailored and "V" shaped look (which is more flattering for a man). This is now changing as American suit styles are becoming more Euro anyhow (but again, beware the boxy look). Again, fit is so important.
The key to varying your wardrobe is in your shirts and ties through the week. Shirts don't have to be french cuffs (i.e. shirts with cufflinks) but if you can wear them with confidence they look great (it's all about subtlety -- cloth cufflinks are a good start). The key with shirts is not just the colors, but in the patterns -- think subtle checks, stripes, waffles, faint ribs, etc. - or even bolder patterns on light blue or white background. And if you're bold, try pink - seriously. It won't make you look gay - it will make you look good (and yes, especially in IB, where guys do put extra effort into their attire). As for ties, Hermes is certainly great (but overpriced in my view) - hard to write anything succinct here with ties other than this -- ties that are distinctive yet traditional are usually solid colors, or bold stripes.
Also, shoes are VERY important. With suits, go with black lace-up oxfords (obviously w/ leather soles). Avoid rubber soled shoes like Rockport -- get leather soled if you can (they are more expensive, but they are classic and frankly make you look more like an adult than an college intern). The rubber soled shoes like Rockport are the "mullets" of the shoe world -- it's decidedly business on top, and casual (clunky, chunky or runner's type soles) on the bottom (i.e. they look like "dressy runners"). It's a subtle thing, but it's noticeable enough by those who care (and more people care and will judge you than you think). If not oxfords, wingtips are fine too. In the old days, I would've said they MUST be black, but it's common now to see folks wearing dark brown oxfords with their gray or blue suits -- just make sure your belt is also brown too if that's the case.
Whatever you do, don't scrimp on shoes. Buy the best shoes you can. Oxfords or wingtips. A nice, classic pair of Oxfords or wingtips will make everything you wear above it look more expensive than it really is (and likewise, wearing crappy shoes will make everything look cheaper than it is). You can have a bespoke suit (i.e. custom made) from Savile Row, custom shirts, Hermes ties - but if your shoes are cheap, it'll make everything look cheap and a bit "off". Also, they never go out of style (not like the square toes shoes that are very 1990s, or the loafers/slip ons that go in and out of style).
Back to suits. Again, fit is far more important than price (which is a function of "brand", material, and stitching). An inexpensive suit that fits you well will make it hard for anyone to know how expensive or inexpensive it is -- what they will see is a man that is well dressed. The only way someone can tell is if they are knowledgeable about fabrics and they spend time fondling your suit for thread quality and stitching, which is just creepy anyhow.
There are basically 4 things to look for when seeing whether a suit jacket fits you:
(a) Shoulders - the tip where the shoulder meets the sleeve should protrude as little as possible from your own shoulder with your hands at your sides - they don't have to fit totally snug, but there shouldn't be more than an inch protruding otherwise it's too big. Also, know that shoulders are NOT alterable without having to take apart the entire suit. So make sure the shoulders fit before anything else
(b) Torso -- standing up, button up your jacket (but not the bottom button). If you can put more than a clenched fist under either of your lapels with ease, it's too big. The ideal fit is where you can comfortably slide a flat hand underneath the lapels with a little slack
(c) Bottom -- the jacket should cover your entire rear end, but not beyond that. Or, roughly end where your thumbs are with your hands at your sides
(d) Sleeve -- with your hands at your sides, you should be able to see approx 1/2 inch of shirt sleeve. The jacket sleeve is a very common and easy alteration.
In sum, go for the "classic" style with shoes and suits, which gives you the option to go for the "fashionable" style with ties and shirts. It's a good mix that gives you the most versatility (and longevity for your shoes and suit, especially if your suit is an expensive one). In just about most business situations, being flamboyant and fashion-forward with your shirts and ties is acceptable custom even in banking (or especially in banking) so long as your suits and shoes are classic. Where it doesn't work is if it's the other way around - you will definitely stick out if your suits are a little too fashion forward (i.e. zoot suits, linen suits, etc.).
Hope this helps!
French cuffed shirts are for losers. So are monogrammed shirts. Get a normal dress shirt, and if you want to be special get it tailored so it fits properly. Those stupid frills will just get you made fun of. That is, unless, you're over 50.
+1 for Zara.
Very stylish and affordable.
Zara is nice but their clothes are generally too tightly fitted for a conservative environment. Better suited for a night on the town.
Looks like Alex up there hit the nail on its head.
alex your post was awesome
quick question for all, not sure if its a big deal but, for a classic look should suit pants be cuffed or not? im am 6 ft tall
Differing opinions on this -- the conventional advice is that if you're tall (6ft or more), then pant cuffs can help avoid the "beanstalk" look because it provides a base, and that if you're shorter than 6ft, to avoid pant cuffs or else it will make you look stalkier than you really are.
In my opinion, I don't think it really matters to a great degree either way -- the most important thing is that if you do get pant cuffs, keep them as subtle and small as possible (i.e. no more than 1 inch high).
I used to see this kid come to work everyday with a Blue-shirt/white-collar and cuffs, gold cuff-links, suspenders, and red/maroon tie, hair slicked back. He looked like he intentionally dressing in a pretty ridiculous Gorden Gecko costume, unfortunately he just must not have known any betetr. I (as I'm sure was everyone else) was completely mortified for him.
Moral of the story--- Don't be 'that guy'... don't even remind anyone of 'that guy'
The most important (and often overlooked) thing to remember is to never wear short-sleeved dress shirts. Dear god. Even for casual wear, you're much better off with a polo.
In general, I would go with cuffs on trousers with pleats and no cuffs on flat front trousers.
Cuffs that are less than 1 inch are going to look ridiculous, depending on the suit. I think the standard is 1.25", and I personally opt for a thicker 1.75" cuff on my Italian suits.
SLIM is in!!!
Go find suits at Prada, Dolce&Gabbana and Tom Ford.
Schedule a fitting at Tom Ford.
As far as fashion magazines, read Arena Homme, Vogue Hommes International, V Man and GQStyle.
...if you worked in fashion, and/or your daily job involves prepping male models for the runway.
(sorry, I just didn't want newbie_banker to take you seriously by accident.)
Bespoke suits are the way to go. Wear anything else other than m-to-m and you'll feel like a clown. As far as shoes go, wait for sales at Salvatore Ferragamo and cop yourself a pair of Pavia's for under $300.
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