Feeling like my time is up.
I read this thread on the front page: Feels like I’m writing my own obituary…
And this really worried that I'm about to be the same as that guy in 2 months. Or even in a worse situation. I'm sure this is around the time of the year when rants like this pop up and some of you having a good time laughing at people like myself or the other guy but I really hit rock bottom. I am writing this up while I'm at my internship looking up metrics on Cap IQ for an fairness opinion too.
I, like many of you was an enthusiastic and eager young man, discovered Mergers & Inquisitions and WSO when I was a freshman at a total super duper non-target school in DC (not GW) and set on a path to get into banking. Over the past two years I managed to intern at a venture cap shop, then public finance, finally an SA gig at a large middle-market in New York, and currently at a M&A boutique. I'm a senior graduating in a month.
But then fall recruiting hit and everything flopped. My old group didn't have the headcount so I went into their superday for the other groups didn't get an offer. My interview with Rothschild bombed because I didn't expect restructuring technical questions I never heard of (and the freaking WSO technical guide did NOT cover) All the banks I reached out to and followed up said they were only hiring their intenrs/or they have to give preference to their target schools they recruit at. I thought I had a great R1 with William Blair but got a call from HR just 3 days later telling me I was too late and they were not considering me anymore. With Harris Williams I sent my resume to the HR lady who said they were recruiting gladly accepted my CV and CL a month ago, and then shocker got a call saying they filled all their spots. Repeat for Cowen, Stifel, Baird, etc.
Then starting mid October I started reaching out to every New York bank. Leerink Swan, PJ Solomon, Centerview, Perella Weinberg, Waller, Piper Jaffray, Wedbush, Mizuho, Nomura whatever using LinkedIn anything. Every bank had already given their offers or not hiring or were firing people (Nomura). I called banks everyday. I had 1 last R1 with a bank but they told me not to expect anything because the job was in San Fran and they prefer regional candidates. Hell the other SA in my group over the summer who went to Wharton and who I was great friends with got the offer from another group at the bank, got a better one at a BB (turned the previous offer down like a boss) even felt sorry for me. Also it turns out a TON of boutiques as in almost like the vast majority don't hire 1st year analysts. They hire experienced candidates from the BBs only.
Then this took the case: I cold-called an analyst at Cantor because he worked at the bank I interned at and was on LinkedIn and he was pretty pissed and upset at the cold call. I'm always very polite. He said me cold-calling was rude and I should not call people I didn't know personally and have no connection to and told me to forget getting a job where he was. Really demoralized me and I've stopped e-mailing/cold-calling worried I will piss people off. I've always heard the street is small and its easy to get a reputation so you'll never get hired anywhere. I've thought about applying to other non-banking jobs but I didn't realize the deadline for all of those expired too and considering my resume is almost all banking its not the best case. Finding a job has become my full-time job. I've stopped going to the gym gained like 5 lbs, stopped hanging out with friends, worry all the time, and pretty much checked out of school. Everyday I have a impending sense of doom and that I'll end up on the streets.
So basically I'm here. My current paid internship is up in December then I'm pretty much that guy in the other thread. I'm 23 unemployed demoralized with no prospects from a total non-target. I always expect the worst while hoping for the best but this time it looks like my time is finally up. The gig is up. Parents are telling me to come back home. (I'm from a backwaters state in the middle of the pacific with zero banking jobs) Its almost Thanksgiving which is the official end of the recruiting season for everything.
Wow. I thought I could make it.
Chin up mate. I'm in a much messier situation. Just try to make the best of it. Easy to fall into a sad state and think the world is against you but that isn't the truth. Recruiting is tough right now and the job market still isn't the best but trust me you'll find something. Like everyone says, a lot of boutiques recruit off cycle. Maybe you'll have to switch locations since you exhausted a lot where you are, but no doubt you'll find something.
What part of banking interests you? M&A, industry coverage, securities, etc...Perhaps hone in on exactly what you want and focus on gaining that experience in alternative fields. i.e. M&A try calling up some law firms, industrials try getting a job in the industry you find interesting, etc. Just try to figure out a logical next step, it's a marathon not a sprint.
You have to stop feeling sorry for yourself. I'm certain it's reflecting in your interviews. And btw taking some time to refocus and collect yourself at home might not be the worst thing.
I'm in the exact, same, situation as you, word for word.
As the guy before said, make the best of it. You will eventually realize that the real winners in any field are the ones who DO NOT quit. Those kids who attend Harvard for econ undergrad and get picked up by GS in junior year will have a good run, but they won't be special.
What you need is not to work harder - you must work smarter than your competition. Be creative - find out why your methods thus far have been failing, improve your credentials, don't waste time brooding over the impending doom (TRUST me, I have the SAME sinking feeling from time to time), and most importantly, you CAN NOT quit.
My buddy was in this same situation as well at the end of last year, but over time he kept losing motivation. Now he quit the hunt altogether and is taking some random retail job just to say he's employed.
You CAN NOT quit - persistence is what will win out. If you have to live with your parents for a while, embarrassing as it may be, take it in stride like the adult you are, and use it as a retreat to improve yourself. Don't have to pay rent? Get a night time job, work an internship for free if you must, start the CFA, learn more financial modeling, join some case competitions (CFA societies host them, as do other finance communities), keep talking to people, go to the gym to keep your confidence and determination sharp, and don't stop applying anywhere.
The only people who can stroll in to finance with their degree and junior year internships are the privileged and the ivy-league kids; everyone else (and I mean everyone) has to bust their ass to make it, and suffer a bit of uncomfortable living in the meanwhile.
Remember this in anything you do: "Whether you think you can or can not, you're probably right."
I could write more. I have felt your pain once. But instead allow me to offer you two quotes from a guy that changed my outlook on a lot of things:
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
The brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something. Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough. They’re there to stop the other people.
Good luck.
Debby fucking downer.
Already making excuses and you aren't even out of school yet. GL.
Nothing wrong with ranting on an internet forum. All of you who are telling this guy to stop making excuses needs to chill the fuck out. Wait until you are in his position whether it be tomorrow or 10 years from now, and it WILL happen in this industry, and when it does, think back to this thread.
Only other comment was the Cantor analyst is a piece of shit. He's probably bitter because he's getting overworked and getting paid shit. Their firm does not pay well at all and deal flow is no good.
There is no point for you to try firms with structured recruiting programs as you've found out the hard way, recruiting is done.
There are many boutiques in any city you can think of and many will take a chance and take you on. In order for you to take that step, you better know the ins and outs of investment banking, basic accounting/valuation questions and WHY they should take you on as to someone with more experience.
Good luck!
Its just my call with the guy at Cantor Fitzgerald really shocked me with his response and froze me in my tracks.
I've exhausted my few connections (banks they are at are not recruiting) and in a perfect world I would have a hard connection at every bank I could leverage but I don't.
That guy at Cantor is, quite simply, a prick. Given his attitude, maybe you'll get the chance to fire him someday. Yes. Strive for that.
Keep your chin up, keep cold-calling, and you'll look back at your worries in a few months and laugh.
I did the same thing and couldn't be happier with where I am at now. If you want it enough, you'll get it...but only if you keep a positive attitude and persist.
Good luck man.
Dude you started looking in Mid-Oct at banks in NYC? What were you waiting for? It should not come as a surprise that you were late to the game and I find that hard to imagine seeing how you have been interning in the industry and whatnot for a few years. Where'd you miss the boat?
MSF anyone?
isn't the general reaction to unemployment to get more education (in your case MSF or something)? that's one of the many reasons unemployment stats are 'unreliable' - they don't account for these people. so maybe give a Masters a shot and come back to a (hopefully) somewhat improved market in 2 years with another degree and some more financial skills under you belt.
Came from a non-target as well and had a similar experience. You gotta realize things rarely work out the way you plan. You have the right attitude, keep on your hustle and you'll end up in a good place come graduation.
^if you're gonna keep on your hustle, might as well keep your flow on too
Do not get demoralized by that guy. Part of being good at cold calls is taking rough rejections from random assholes. Realize that people like that are a tiny minority. Most people are neutral or positive on cold calls.
If this happened to me, I'd hang up, and then cold called/cold e-mailed the VP/MD of that group. Because if an MD likes you, some analysts opinion won't matter shit.
I know a guy that started off at AXA advisors as an FA and then turned that into an internal wholesaler gig at Goldman. After 2 years in that position he was able to lateral to a job that he really wanted out of college but wasn't yet qualified for.
The point is that there are a lot of people at MS/JPM/GS who went to non-targets but got in the door by proving somewhere else that were very good at what they do.
Dude. Apply to every job you can find. Seriously. Don't set your sight on only banking. You can't afford to be that selective about your job search now.
I graduated from college 2 years ago with no job. I felt like a failure, went through mild depression, and felt completely hopeless. Believe me, when you end up with no job, the last thing on your mind is whether you can get a banking job offer or not. You just want to get a respectable corporate track job, and put a roof over your head.
I just applied for everything and began to utilize all the alumni, friends, other network I could remotely find. I barely landed a job, but it came 4 months after graduation.
You can do it. Broaden your job search. Good luck.
I graduated from a top Ivy with degree in Econ. I graduated unemployed. Many of my classmates graduated with nothing lined up. Landing a top finance or consulting gig is no joke, even at HYP.
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Not sure how helpful this will, but thought I would add some perspective. It's easy to get down like you are when you think the grass is so much greener inside the proverbial banking walls. But I promise you it's not. I hear people say the things you're saying and my first thought is generally that they are really, really misguided about what they want in life - you really have to be to want this job. I'm your age, did the nontarget hussle, got into one of the firms you mentioned above, and half a year in I am the least happy I've been in my entire life. And this has been persistent for months. Every day I wake up and realize that on a daily basis I have literally nothing to look forward to. And I am very very far from alone in thinking this way among the many, many current IB analysts I know.
There are a lot of misperceptions about the benefits of the whole banking thing:
Prestige? Tough to call it a prestigious job if 99% of the people in the world have no idea what you do. Money? Not that great. At the analyst level, especially these days, you will be sorely undercompensated for the hours and stress. You are essentially working for potential future earnings you might make later on in life from opportunities you get from doing the analyst thing, but given that so few analysts stay in banking and so few actually get those dream buyside gigs, on a probability adjusted basis your expected (potential) future compensation probably doesn't make it worth it either. Potential to get smart really quickly? Not really - you'll learn a lot about Microsoft office, you'll learn a lot about how to use your company's IT systems, etc. But investment banking is hardly intellectually - its really vocational school for being a salesperson of high-priced assets (kind of like working at Tiffany & Co.). Modeling is about 5% of your job and even then what you're really doing is pulling numbers from 10-ks and plugging into a pre-made template. A challenge? This job is only hard in the same sense that fabricating T-shirts in a Bangkok sweatshop is hard. It's a ridiculous amount of hours doing mind-numbingly boring tasks.
All considered, the job is so commoditized it really is difficult to find any redeemable quality about it. You're probably thinking "Well, this guy doesn't know how bad I actually want this - sure, a lot of kids think they do and have no idea, but I REALLY do." But once you're in the bullpen staring down two years of your life - not just an intern with an upcoming end date (when things are still exciting) - it's a whole new ballgame and it really makes you start to question what you value in life vis-a-vis the trajectory of your career.
tl;dr, take some time to think about if this is how you really want to spend 20%+ percent of the best years of your life - go watch Office Space and ask yourself if human beings were meant to sit in cubicles all day writing "TPS reports," and really take mind of the fact that life is short.
And if you still want to do it, don't say you weren't warned - every single analyst I know wishes he/she had seriously thought more about if he/she really wanted to do this beforehand and the vast majority would trade spots with you.
I can't say that you're wrong -- but it seems like a lot of careers are like that. Unless you're in a position on the cutting edge, things are bound to get repetitive.
Not sure what you do at work... I work in banking and yes, the work can be sometimes mind numbing but it's not as bad as you make it to be..
Modeling teaches you about how to look at a business from a financial perspective and how different scenarios/input in a company can impact its capital structure, margins, growth, returns, etc. If you're really thinking about what you're doing and how everything flows together, it's a great way to learn corporate finance and get a skill set that is valued. Because I know how each piece of the model fits together, all I need is 3 sheets of paper, pen and a calculator to put together a model. That's the level of knowledge you should get to and that is only achieved through thinking, observing and repetition.
I also speak to management teams everyday, talking about their business and how our transaction can help them achieve their goal. I think about how to position companies for sale, or how to organize a vast amount of information into a concise, intelligible manner that an investor can use to make a decision about a company. I also think about how companies fit together in a merger or acquisition scenario, and examine the impact the combination will have on the business.
You also get to think about qualities in a deal/company that make investors interested in certain companies, industries, and ultimately get to learn how investors think about businesses and industries.
Yes, the job is boring at times and a lot of grunt work is needed. But you do learn quality skills if you put your mind to it and pick up on the things that you are doing.
I really appreciate the support. Some of you messaged me to help put. Thank you. I'll hit the phones again today and keep reaching out.
I also applied for a random Syndicate Analyst position at Mizuho though I'm not even sure if that's banking. I'll keep trying for something.
Don't let the Cantor guy dissuade you from cold-calling. I've received cold e-mails from people I have no connection to and sometimes I respond, sometimes I don't. I would never shit on someone for trying to reach out. Going out of your way to scold someone who wrote to you is pretty bizarre in my opinion. You're right that the street is small, but you're not going to get black balled for trying.
I've seen some unconventional methods of inbound "cold calling" where I worked. A good example I can think of was someone in my group who was contacted because he had the same first and last name as the prospective... He laughed, forwarded the e-mail around to the group and everyone snickered, but the consensus was that it took balls to do something like that. They brought him into the office to talk with people. We didn't hire him, but he did stay in touch w/ contact in our group and eventually did land a FT job in IBD. The same thing goes for resumes. Its wasn't uncommon to see a resume with some weird job or interest listed that would be passed around and joked about, but it didn't mean their CV was tossed in the garbage. A lot of the time it would get you noticed and remembered.
What seem like acts of desperation from your point of view won't necessarily be viewed negatively by those on the receiving end. Like I said, sometimes they will have a laugh about it if you're using bold tactics, but I think most people can relate to the difficulty of getting your foot in the door. It's bizarre that your interaction w/ the Cantor guy elicited a vitriolic response. Usually the worst thing that can happen when cold e-mailing is that you receive no response.
In fact, (although I don't recommend this) I bet if you went over the head of the Cantor guy and e-mailed someone higher up in his group to say you were snubbed but are interested in hearing more about the company, he would get shit on by his superiors for the lack of decorum.
Don't do this. E-mail the higher-up with your pitch, but don't ever mention you talked to the analyst. If you want to, you can make that analyst suffer later, when you get hired there.
Why would you cold call an analyst in the first place?
Anyways, these type of situtations that you are in will only make you stronger. It's cliche but true. If you can take this with your chin up, even more motivated, you will get there.
A persons true character shows through when facing adversity. Don't falter, you gotta have thick skin. And whatever you do, when you get a job, call the guy at Cantor back and tell him to fuck himself.
Maybe don't tell him to fuck himself - I think that is the kind of thing that can come bike and bite you in the ass, especially if you're not in the industry yet. Perhaps something a little friendlier like, "blow me dicklips"?
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