How bad are non-targets?
How impossible is it? There are always stories of kids from non-targets making it but is this a 1-in-1000 scenario?
Junior
Finance Major
3.8GPA (Most likely stay at a 3.8/3.9 GPA by the time I finish)
Does work experience hold enough leverage to offset being a non-target graduate?
why worry about the odds - it happens, so just put yourself in the best position possible to succeed and hope for the best
Bingo.
Making what? That's too general. If you're using where you go to school as a crutch you're destined to fail.
work experience likely won't give you the push that you need (unless it's like MM/BB IBD or something really prestigious like GE finance or something). networking and having senior and maybe junior folks at top firms refer you is the only way you'll get an interview. some firms like MS and DB tend to be less open to nontargets coming through, but firms like GS, JPM, Citi are extremely open and will give you the time of day if referred by someone senior within the firm.
Don't stop pushing for what you want and don't complain about how difficult it is for you coming from a nontarget; nontarget students break in everyday into top groups by doing exactly what i said above, and you can too.
Do non-target school kids get "more difficult" interview questions in general? (Originally Posted: 07/22/2014)
I've been hearing that the banks assume that kids who go to like Wharton are already so smart that they don't ask them difficult questions during the interviews.. like how do you calculate a bond's convexity.
It's all in how you shake the hand.
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/2MZOBleh0uk/hqdefault.jpg
I'm going to try this one and if it doesn't work out I'm blaming it on you.
You've been hearing wrong.
how so?
I don't think you can generalize about this stuff. Depends on the firm, position, and the interviewer. If you are from a non-target, you might need to show more of the basic level of competency that is already expected at Wharton. But on the flip side, targets with good work experience can get grilled on deals and more difficult/practical questions. I came from a semi-target with no work experience so most of my technicals were just checking the box and they acknowledged the tough ones I wouldn't be expected to know. On the flip side, some friends got EB interviews and were nonstop grilled on things you could only learn on the job.
I'd look at more difficult questions as a way to distinguish yourself b/c you are already coming in a step down. If they just give you softball questions, you can't separate yourself and you'll definitely miss out to the Wharton kid when you both have the Vault guide memorized.
Beyond that, most of this very technical stuff is usually just analysts having fun. Not sure what position is asking about convexity. If it is just general IB, they are just screwing with you. If it is a job that uses convexity/math a lot, then I imagine they'll be asking everyone that question.
can I PM you with some additional questions please?
You need to stop listening to the rumor mill at your school and stop looking for a set of information that you can regurgitate or follow step by step to guarantee you a job.
GPA from a Non-target to be considered competitive? (Originally Posted: 09/16/2009)
Is anything below a 3.75 or a 3.8 from a non-target considered noncompetitive? I really want to say at least a 3.9, but I hope these top companies are somewhat considerate.
Not all non-targets are created equal.
Your non-target GPA matters more than target GPA, but not by a whole lot. As long as it's above 3.5, w/ enough networking and persistence you'll get something. Without networking, even 4.0 won't open you doors.
Btw, some top non-target public schools have tougher grading than any Ivy League.
I agree with PussInBoots. The key thing here is persistence, if you really wanted to be in this field, then don't gave up. You can always find ways to get in: networking, get a graduate degree etc.
Your GPA is only 1 part of the story. Generally it needs to be a bit higher from a non-target school, but networking and the other things that would appear on your resume are crucial as well.
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Finance Career Prospectives from a non-Target (Originally Posted: 04/09/2014)
Hello All,
I am currently a student in the MAcc program at Penn State. I am also going to receive my BS in Finance. I already know that I have a job offer from PwC at my disposal if I so wish to pursue a career in the Big 4 post graduation. However my only gripe is that I feel that working at a Big 4 firm might be settling. I consistently see the phrase "work like a banker, get paid like an accountant". Being from a non-target school I understand that going into IB is a long shot, but what other exciting and rewarding career paths are open to me with my credentials? Or should I just stick with PwC and go from there? Also I have a high GPA for what its worth.
A lot of people will say that Big 4 may be a better option, but I would highly recommend looking into Fortune 500 finance programs. Generally pay better with much better hours, and if you do really well amongst your class you can get some great opportunities.
Thanks for the reply, what sort of positions/careers would be open to me in a fortune 500?
For Fortune 500 there are a lot of 2-year rotational programs for finance like Financial Management Program. GE Capital, P&G, J&J and Microsoft are some of the firms that have something like that.
My advice would be to compare all your offers, and then, if PwC is still the best/most prestigious offer, try to make your way over to the M&A department there.
graduated from a non target (Originally Posted: 06/08/2010)
ive been applying to a lot of entry level positions lately, particularly some prop trading firms in nyc and chicago, and i havent heard anything back. the funny thing is, i have a solid 3.9 summa cum laude bs in Finance minor in Statistics, student government, fraternity president, study abroad experience, and internship at a brokerage firm in boca raton this past summer. any thoughts ? graduated from a non target ...
Sounds like you lack adequte work experience. By the start of senior year you really should have atleast 2 relevant internships, I imagine others that applied had internships in S&T, prop trading firms etc - Brokerage doesn't really sound equitable. Thats what I was informed. Good luck anyhow.
Not only that, but you have already graduated.. which means OCR was wayyyy over for you.
youll b alright man...............just keep pumping that resume out to firms and success will follow in ur favor.
Like many have already said you have missed traditional recruiting by eight or nine months. You are now in competition for a relatively smaller number of positions against those from better schools, with better internships, or with more experience. Don't despair, as you still have a shot but you really need to network your butt off. You can't change your school or experience overnight but one good connection can make everything else meaningless. Work your alumni network, even if they can't get you into a position they can provide valuable advice as to how they did it.
Getting started from a small non-target school (Originally Posted: 03/13/2013)
Hey guys. I'm an economics major at a small state school with a very small economics program. I initially started out at a CC in general studies and graduated with a 3.5. Did a congressional internship and had a kid and took a year off studies. Had a chance to go to a few more bigger econ programs but opted to stay close to home.
Now I'm the Uni and things have not went as planned. My calc class the professor gave only one student higher than a D. I also had a C in a different class which means that because I haven't taken many classes my GPA is hovering around 3 for this Uni. I've been looking to get my foot in the door of some kind financial related job, but living in a small town there aren't many options nearby and I don't really have any connections in the nearest city. I met with resources department in the school but aside from helping with my resume, they didn't have much advice other than to keep an eye on their job board.
Hopefully lurking around here I can pick up some tips and any advice is welcome.
You're gonna have to do this the old fashioned way. Pick up the phone and start calling people you have something in contact with. Since you probably have few alumns (although of course you should reach out to them as well) try to find other people you share something in common with, such as nearby schools that may have more of a presence (i.e. like I am from X area) or go through friends of friends of friends, etc.
It'ls going to take a lot of work on you're end, but nothing good comes easy. It is an uphill battle from a non-target. I should know -- I went to one for UG as well (and it was a small state school).
BTW, only 1 grade higher than a D?!?! I'm not for grade inflation, but at some point the teacher needs to take a step back and be like, "maybe it's me."
Are you open to any type of job related to finance.... what city are you willing to work in?
To your 2nd question Indianapolis right now. It is a fairly long drive from where I'm finishing school at, but I think its manageable.
Non-target school chances (Originally Posted: 12/09/2012)
What are my chances for a good s&t internship even though I go to an average state school.
3.8 GPA Sophomore (graduating in 3.5 years, maybe 3)
Investment association (made a pitch that the board bought last year, stock selection committee this year, just elected to board position for next year)
Finance association head of alumni relations
Honors finance program (3 interviews to get in, minimum GPA, case study, demonstrated interest in capital markets, only sophomore in it, only 30 people in the entire program)
Taking a class next semester where students manage ~6 million in endowment funds (only sophomore to get into it, takes an interview with prof, 60+ person waiting list).
Member of hall government, RA this year, and member of all student union.
PWM internship after frosh year. Return offer (might not take it, idk) Internship at state capitol (capitol located near campus) working with a rep focused on campaign finance reform this semester.
I run a small brokerage account that has done pretty darn well recently.
Finally, I play contact sports and stay active.
So what are my chances of getting a good S&T internship either this summer or next summer?
How big is the endowment fund? If you play sports competitively and are a team captain, i.e. leaderships skills, F500s rotational programs love that.
The endowment of the university is about ~1.5 billion.
I am not a team captain but it is competitive.
Apply and find out. Nobody online can handicap this accurately.
S&T looks for very strong quant and so you might want to take classes at least until differential equations/probability to make your coursework seem more impressive.
You are the head of alumni relations for your finance association...have you tried reaching out to any alums?
Non-Target chances (Originally Posted: 08/10/2015)
I'm currently in the farmers school of business at Miami University, and I'm looking to get a IB job. I'm majoring in finance and doing a co-major in data analytics. I realize FSB is a non target but still a top 25 undergrad, so what are some tips that will help me stand out against target school applicants?
Network, Network, Network.
With whom? I attend the socials and seminars at my school and do the best I can. How shoild I reach out to people who could benefit me?
"I realize FSB is a non target but still a top 25 undergrad"
LOL
He probably meant top 25 undergraduate business schools, and guess what: it is.
http://www.bloomberg.com/bschools/rankings/#5
top 25? Which ranking is this?..
I did mean top 25 undergraduate business program
You need to be more resourceful if you want to succeed in breaking into IB. Had you spent even five minutes searching, you would have seen that there are dozens, probably hundreds, of these threads that spell out exactly what you need to do.
Networking is the only way that you will get interviews. Make a list of the reputable banks out there (should be 40 or so) and then find contacts on LinkedIn. Send them an email (you will have to lookup their bank's email address format) and ask for some time. There are templates on WSO for this too. Good luck.
Potential coming from a non-target (Originally Posted: 04/24/2013)
I'm currently double majoring in Chinese and Business Economics at a non-target school (Big 12 state university) and I am hoping to break into the consulting field. I just completed my first year, although by credit hours I just finished my sophomore year. I have already secured an internship this summer working in the Operations Process Improvement department (in-house consulting) at a large health insurance company. I understand being from a definite non-target certainly hurts my case, but I also have a 4.0 GPA and a 750 gmat score on my side. What can I really do to set myself apart and give myself the advantage that I need in my current situation? Recently had a partner from BCG give an info session and he mentioned they typically hire a few students out of undergrad from my school, which certainly surprised me. What are my chances for getting into the top tier and how can I prepare myself better to make that jump?
Keep the GPA up. Internship experience is helpful. Not sure how/why you already have a GMAT score but that's pretty impressive.
The key thing now is to network. Having a partner give you an info. session is a good place to start.
Keep in mind though that most internships are for juniors going into their senior year so don't over-do the networking portion (i.e. contacting them every month for the next two years)
Just keep doing what you're doing and network. If you keep your GPA up, your internship experience will keep getting better in terms of prestige, position, and what you want to do.
Don't forget to enjoy your life while you're doing all of this..
Keep the GPA high. Great job on GMAT. Practice case studies!
While the majority of hires come from target schools, MBB all take students from non-target schools as well. I would find alumni from your school who are one or two years in, and reach out to them to see how they got an interview.
As NanoStapler mentioned, there's no need to aggressively reach out now since internships are generally not available before junior year. Even if you are a junior in terms of credit hours, consulting firms care more about whether or not you are going to be able to return as part of their hiring class for the following year. Unless you're planning to graduate in 3 years, having more credit hours won't help you get around the juniors-only requirement. If you keep your grades up and keep doing internships, you'll definitely have a chance.
Good luck!
Try and get a fucking life while you're at it. Taking the GMAT as a freshman , whewwwwww..thug life bro..holy smokes
Non Target IB Chances? (Originally Posted: 07/30/2008)
So I'm wrapping up my summer activities and I'm getting ready to gear up for the fall recruiting season. I have a limited network due to location and alumni base.
My Background: Non-Target State school Double Major: Finance and Accounting GPA: 3.6 (3.88 past year) GMAT: 750 (98th percentile) Very Strong ECs Internships: Chesapeake Energy (F500 big nat gas firm), and state government
Obviously my selling point is my GMAT, but is that enough to get at least an interview with BBs or other banks?
Thanks!
Maximize your network. Be clear about what you're interested in.
One resource I would suggest is Linkedin: Find the few alumni you know, friend them, and proceed to look at their second degree connections. You'll find at least some people in IBD, at boutiques and BB too. Introduce yourseld and ask for phone calls/meetings for advice. Really push your alumni network from school though. You're bound to find at least one person who has taken the IBD route. Look them up, do whatever it takes to find out more from them and NEVER leave a contact without asking for more contacts. Basic matter of sales.
Also, don't limit yourself to where you apply. Get to the core of what you want: for instance, let's say your goal is to work in IBD because you want to work in private equity. You don't need to be at JPM or ML to do this (though of course the brand helps). Plenty of MM/Boutique analysts go on to greatness and prestige as well, so make sure you continue to do the right things as an analyst and the doors will open.
Which brings me back to my main point: don't rule out regional boutiques, MM focused firms, groups that work in London, and anywhere else. You've got to flexible from a non-target and willing to do anything. Your network and the numbers game (applying to as many places as possible) are your best bets for getting offers. Spend this month building that network and putting together a list of all the regional, BB, and everything in-between firms that you want to apply for. GL.
Hey man...agree with everything Alphaholic said. Definitely don't let the Non-Target factor bother you one bit. I just got an offer from a top MM bank and here's my background:
Very Non-Target State School (only 2 recent alums in IB that I know of) Major: Ex-Computer Science then Economics major GPA: 3.0 So-So Leadership
I do have full time experience but in a related field. My point is, just keep networking and do anything you could to get in. As long as you get the interview, it's time to impress and it doesn't matter what school you went to.
I have the EXACT same background as you, cept my career gpa was what you got last year. I had 5 IBD/PE interviews this week. I graduated in May. Keep knocking and don't stop!!!
Choosing a path from a non-target school (Originally Posted: 05/17/2015)
I'm a rising junior at a non-target state university and I've been trying to get every opinion that I can in regards to which path I should take to reach my goal of working in an IB firm in New York. I'm currently a finance major in the honors college with a high gpa but I have the ability to choose a second major and still graduate on time. I have narrowed down my options to the following two choices:
Pursue a second major in Accounting so that I can easily read through and understand financial statements (I have no idea how banks view this), and try to land a job out of undergrad.
Pursue a second major in Economics, do some Econ research to bolster my academic resume and hopefully be admitted to a Master in Finance program at a more prestigious school to help increase my chance of landing an IB job
Any and all opinions/suggestions are greatly appreciate.
Is there an option for just sticking to finance, maybe adding on Acct/Econ minor, and focusing more on networking, technicals, and EC's?
does rising junior mean you have two years left?
Yes I have two years left
I am a bit confused as to why the two options are so completely independent. Why do you think that if you choose an econ major you will not be trying to land a job out of undergrad?
Beyond my confusion though, taking accounting courses will definitely be valuable for IB. I do not think that you need to be an accounting major, but taking the major accounting courses is definitely beneficial. It will help you crush the accounting questions in interviews, and then it will help you have less of a learning curve once you are on the job. That being said, I do not think that an econ major is looked down upon. I firmly believe that econ is valuable, both in that it is applicable to the real world, and that it teaches a good way of thinking (also a lot of target school kids are coming out with econ degrees).
So basically, I think that both majors are valuable in their own respects. But I think you should be careful of picking a second major. I would not underestimate the side effects it could have. If you find that you do not like it, your finance classes become harder, etc. you could find yourself in a position where it is nullifying its value by dragging down your GPA. And coming from a non-target, having a high GPA is vital.
If I were you I would take a few acc classes and a few econ classes so that you have an idea of what they are about. After you have done that, if you particularly like one then have a minor in it. I do not think that having a 2nd major vs. a minor will make or break your chances.
I would also be trying to land a position even if I take the economics route. Sorry I did not clarify. I just feel that I would look better for msf programs with a double major in finance and econ (especially since I am considering doing research in econ), as well as to banks because I'll be able say that I managed to maintain a high gpa even with two majors. You are not the first person to suggest though focusing on just one major so I have been giving it some thought.
And to my point about the MSF, I would have that only as a last resort. You still have two years to get an internship and then a full-time job. That should be what your plan is, not to cop out and hope a MSF program can get you recognized. You are much better off trying to get in now, and only using the MSF as an absolute last ditch effort.
in general, math classes are more applicable than economics classes for an msf but, accounting classes are more applicable for banking
overall though, your major probably plays a much smaller role than your internships and extracurriculars
ex) joining finance club probably will pay more dividends than the time invested to take extra classes
ideally, you could take some extra classes, have strong ECs and bag a good internship
Generally the way it works for a non target is for a non target to have a high GPA and possess 3 or 4 relevant internships at well recognized shops. Try interning unpaid during your school year at a local boutique and possess a paid or unpaid PWM internship at a BB.
Firms make it very hard for non-targets to break in. (Originally Posted: 11/30/2011)
Usually they only allow an applicant to apply to two divisions within their firm. Generally a non-target will apply for IB and the Back office role that the company recruits at their campus for.
We all know applying online from a non-target is really pointless. Now, you are stuck with your Back office role as your last option. However, they see you applied to IB and back office - both completely different jobs. They realize you are only using the back office spot as your Plan B. They recognize you aren't really interested in that, so they do not even bother interviewing you. Now you are stuck with nothing.
well, think about it. Why would a BB bother looking at online apps when they could fill their Analyst class just through the schools they recruit from?
Chances are slim
I'm from a non-target (and a LAC in the Midwest at that) and my IB offer came from an online app. I think it just depends on the bank (and the resume too, of course).
Same here. It was for an SA gig in IBD at a BB, fortunate enough to get an offer after the summer. Don't count out the online app. I viewed it as a necessity so my first email to HR could say I already completed the online application.
I'm sure I'm the exception to the rule, but not filling out the application online can only serve to hurt you.
Cheer up bro. It's not the end of the world. An alternative can be a F500 company where you can get great exposure experience and leadership skills. A lot of people tend to disregard them for completely because IB carries such prestige. If working at a BB is a dream, try again after you complete an MBA. Complaining wont do anything. Accept your situation, network, strive for a decent gig, rock it, butt rape the GMAT and get into a top MBA. Heck, apply to an MSF if you're solely set on IB. Just realize that the sooner you accept your current situation, the more time you'll have to find an alternate route to achieve your goals.
Well, honestly man network harder?
Do you have relevant alumni at your disposal? I know somebody that wanted his shot soooooo badly he got a job in one of the best GYMs in NYC for the summer sophomore year so he could have a shot at "bumping into" a PM/Banker/Stockbroker really any Wall Streeter. He spoke with many many people that summer and 1 offered him a PWM internship at the BB in NYC, and he was a baller salesman so he convinced that MD to speak with the MD in the IBD. Junior year rolls around and he went IBD at the BB. He now is a MD in S&T ( he like the markets more so he made the switch)
But moral of the story is that its all about desire. Go out there speak with people I went a Finance conference in SF and got hooked up with a VC gig ( I am interested in ER, but VC wont look that bad).
The WSO Conference also seems like it will be a great opportunity for everybody. You have to pay your dues one way or another the ivy kids worked their asses of in high school, so they dont have to work THAT hard to get an IBD job. Us non-targets fucked off off (atleast I did, didnt even go to class have the days senior year), so we need to work hard in college to get our name out there.
I respect the difficulty of breaking W.S., because that is what makes it attractive for me.
Lets be serious here. Few people want it as bad as this guy you know. Because if they did they wouldn't come on here and complain about it. They would do whatever it takes.
By any means.
It's called breaking in for a reason.
Moral of Ambition's post: Don't network harder. Network smarter.
Really depends on your experience and the economy. I come from a complete non-target with a 3.3 and had some decent IB internship experience, and had a ton of interviews last year at MM firms for IB and two BBs. Luck plays a role as well as networking your ass off.
All you really need is good slob technique and no gag reflex.
I prefer if you have a gag reflex, after disposing of a few hookers you appreciate it more...
What about the term non-target confuses you? It is, by its very definition, not ideal so of course its going to be more difficult.
I don't think it's going to be much harder from a non-target though for a qualified candidate.
Step 1) Save $150K and do in-state STEM. Step 2) Get 3.8 GPA and a 2350 SAT. Step 3) Apply everywhere. Step 4) Make it through computer filters, land on someone's desk. Step 5) Only get interviewed by the smart managers. Step 6) Get an offer.
It's honestly not that difficult. Getting a paper published in IEEE- now THAT's difficult.
This is so much bullshit...
Moral of the story is this kids, DO EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN TO GO TO GAIN ADMISSION INTO A TARGET SCHOOL. It will make your life so much easier. Anyone who tells you that "it's not that difficult" from a non target is straight up lying to you. It's very difficult and you should do everything you possibly can to avoid it.
Everyone doesn't get these jobs. They are very highly sought after and the probability of anyone getting a BB/MM FO job would start at probably 5% freshman year and only decreased after that. We are in a very bad hiring environment and there are a lot of extremely qualified Ivy League/Top tire university grads that are still looking, despite having all the neccessary boxes checked. It was hard in the bull markets, and its even harder in a bear market. Not everyone can play for the varsity team, but anyone can make a lot of money, you just have to be innovative, creative, and lucky
This thread is fuckin stupid.. I hate this shit so I am going to try to railroad it with a rant to non targets.
First, if you can't beat targets at the UG-level (for the 8,000x reasons you come up with to console yourself) do something else and go to a target MBA or MSF program.
Level the playing field and beat them at their own game (should be easy right? since you think the process was rigged and unfair and you're a stud, but just couldn't get noticed). If you can't 'break-in' from there you just wasted a shitload of money and time b/c you couldn't be critical about yourself and see that it might just be a "you" problem and settle on something other than IB.
Second, I'm in the same boat as all the other non-targets, I interned on the buyside this summer and thought I was pretty well-connected, but I got blown the fuck up during this recruiting season. MD's that loved to talk in August and September didn't seem to be returning calls or emails in October. I still piss and moan about being a non target b/c my stats rival every target and then some, but no one fucking cares.
So if you think you're good and you know it's not a "you" issue holding you back, be patient work that "shitty job" till your MBA or go do an MSF. When you "break in" tell everyone to fuck off... but until then non targets, stop posting these gay ass threads. Life's not fair wah wah.
IP: shouldn't step one be to invite Jesus into your heart to gain some righteous perspective?
Seriously, it is not that difficult. Was talking with a friend and he was lamenting how many mediocre resumes he's seen that have the same pablum. He's looking for a some ambition and intellectual curiosity with a basic level of aptitude and work ethic, for which target schools help provide--but don't determine--screening. If you're interested in poker do you play in WSOP events or just 1/2 games? If you like to run, go run an ultra marathon. Do something interesting and you'll get a look, even if you have to barnstorm MD's at their barbershop.
But, pray tell me, what would compel anyone to slave away for so little in such a hellish city? Even most MD's in the city have mediocre 2-3 bedroom apartments.
So little? A nice 2-3BR in the city is 2-3 bucks.
I don't expect people to have all of that figured out right away. In fact, I really respect that in someone just straight out of school if I can figure out that he's got the intellectual goods to clearly not be mediocre.
2-3 bucks in most places gets you your own private island with a 5 bedroom mansion. Or at the very least, 2500 square feet and half an acre on Malibu beach. IMHO, 1/2-2/3 of folks in finance work in NYC because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to.^^^^ good point SB +1
There are other interesting careers in finance outside of IB.
Most recent grads on wall street are Ivy League English/Art History/Arts&Crafts major with mediocre SAT scores who went to prestigious private high schools. If you do not match that description, you will not fit in and will soon be clawing for a way out.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. A lot of business that used to go to the banks is moving to the Chicago prop shops and electronic transactions. Still, if you want to spend a few years on Wall Street before the fiscal conservatives in Washington take over and stop the bailouts, I think that's the path of least resistance and least cost for someone who can get into a target anyways.
There's still a lot of anti-prestige pragmatists left on the street, although they're quietly slipping away to Connecticut, California, and Chicago.
mono,
hardwork can be in many forms..... it doesnt have to mean that they spent more time in the books. speaking with people, going to meetings, paying money and going to conferences can easily wear you down.....networking is also a lot of work
i applied to a bb via monster
Haha well Croato,
The world is getting more global as we speak and this means that, even on Wall Street, they are looking into hiring people of many backgrounds, because clients can be anywhere and anyone. Wall Street is not some USA happy-go-round. I hate using this reference but it seems applicable; in Wall Street 2 when they have those asian clients, shia labeouf uses his knowledge of the traditions they followed to win them over, he was smart and capable, but dont you think it would be handy to have a asian employee at that time?.
Also the people who make it to MD ARE NOT prestige whores. My family friend was a Department Head at a BB and he went to UPenn both Undergrad and MBA, and he is a complete clown! He is energetic enjoys life, jokes about stupid things (we were talking about how much ass size correlates with beautiful faces).
Also most clients (in the USA) want guys who ARE NOT cookie cutter Ivy WASPS, they want to speak with someone who can relate to them. Since lots of clients work on main street, do you honestly believe that they want to deal with someone who is a prestige whore/ "cookie cutter" Ivy kid? No. I have met some MD's and lots of them are chill guys who just love simple things like family life, watching basketball, football ( there are some douche bag MD's, but nobody talks to them much they are good at what they do and that is why they are MD's).
You want to hear a really funny story that is just bound to piss this guy off?
I went to a total non-target. Im talking like not even a top 350 school, well might be top 350 I never looked. I got medicore grades. Had one internship, for like 4 weeks in PWM. Landed a IBD job at a regional bank on their M&A desk. Did that for a year and a half then I jumped to a HF and I am a distressed debt analyst. This industry is not that hard to break into. Its only hard if you make it hard.
Let's make a list!
GS MS Barclay's UBS Citi Jefferies DB Citadel MF Global
Lehman Bear DLJ
Try getting into those firms, those are near IMPOSSIBLE
mad respect for those who get an offer from these firms
Us non-targets are doomed :(( :(( :((
the trick to getting in from a non-target (form my experience) is to be as well prepared for IB interviews as you target counterparts (this is extremely rare, as non-target foks tend to be extremely clueless) and to constantly look for opportunties.
the officers at my non-target school's undergraduate finance organization, (the ones who went on WSO, M&I, and made friends with target kids) ended up at front office roles at the following banks:
Houlihan UBS Barcs Goldman
i was a little less prepared than my buddies and landed an interview from Citi Tech M&A through a connection and didn't get the gig (but then again, not all target kids get IBD offers).
BE SMART, BE PREPARED and BE PERSISTENT. if you follow these rules, the odds will be in your favor.
Why don't you bitch about the status quo some more? That sure seemed to work wonders for the OWS crowd.
hey asshole, go and get laid. you need to release a lot of shit in you.
It's really hard going to a non-target... (Originally Posted: 09/14/2011)
I knew it was hard but now I'm really seeing it.
Companies come to recruit, they give presentations and mainly talk about their front office positions and their accomplishments. How prestigious they are... Then they say....
Well today we are here to recruit for back office positions.
Why do they tease us :(
went to a non-target myself. you don't HAVE to work for a BB. wasn't interested in IBD, but i work for an ER shop now covering special situations/distressed. after a few years, experience/work ethic trumps it.
don't get me wrong, the prestige of a BB helps, but i feel as though plenty of people who aren't at BB's still are doing what they want to do and getting exit opportunities as well.
just keep plugging something will come along that's worthwhile
yeaa man its hard..... A friend of mine got his FT offer at GS today and we go to OSU, so its hard but possible
Pretty soon all these Ivy league schmucks will suck your kneecaps.
Stop being a fucking vagina. Life is hard.
what a whiny bitch. And you call yourself a "futureGekko"?
It does suck OP, but what can you do? Just gotta keep plugging at it and understand that there are plenty of others in the same shoes as you (me included).
Getting a BB IBD analyst job isn't the end all be all of life. It's tough to see as an undergrad, but you can literally do anything and then jump to an BB IBD later.
After all, if you're just chasing it because everyone else is chasing it, you'll never be happy in life. And if you really do want it, just bust your balls with a boutique job until you get the referrals, contacts, or experience to lateral in. It's not a race to get there first. It's a journey and you just want to reach the end. If you explore other things along the way, it never hurts.
I'm noticing that there seems to be an inverse correlation between the audaciousness in a poster's name and where they actually are / are headed.
lol ... now theres a million dollar analysis!
If only weaponized_cum was in here...
Went to a non target, who cares. I had a great time in college and I'm having a good time now. I don't work for a BB IBD cause I don't really work anywhere FT right now. Looking for a job, enjoying each day, staying productive, meeting new people, its cool.
TBH I could care less if I work at GS/MS/JPM/XYZ or not though. I'm going for the highest pay and shortest hours I can find, don't care what name is providing it.
high pay and short hours in IBD don't compute...
Yes, students at target schools get stuff handed to them. But one day those people will actually have a job and daddy won't be able to help them advance anymore.
Also, this is a pretty shitty way to go through life too. Imagine if these people actually worked hard to get into an Ivy! what the fuck would we do then, with no straw man to throw shit at? Whatever, some people are born into wealth and connections and all that, and some work hard and get it themselves. Do the second one.
Lol you can't be serious. We all worked hard to get where we are. People at targets just worked harder in high school while you slacked off. Now we target kids can take a little break since we worked so hard in the past, while you non target kids must work harder NOW.
^ just like the other poster said, most of them probably just worked a lot harder in high school while you were playing warcraft
Dude, you sound crazy butthurt. Seriously things will turn around, whatever's going on in your life.
Actually to get into an ivy league based on dad's money- you'd have to donate in the 7 figures- very few parents (even the wealthy ones) do that. Second, SAT ranges and GPAs for legacies are actually HIGHER than the average- no doubt this is because wealthy/educated parents demand that their kids succeed - but the academic achievements are still there. I'm at a "lower-tier" ivy, but I know for a fact that HYP has so much money they really do not care about whether you are poor (in fact you're more likely to get in if you show that you've overcome obstacles). I personally know a princeton student right now who has homeless with his single mother during his middle school years - he has a full-ride- tuition, living expenses, everything paid. And that's not uncommon.
This is just speculation, but at least I have first hand experience- out of every 1,000 students at an ivy league, about 950 completely deserved it. And 50 were partially helped by non-academic factors. So if you want to really bitch about unfair advantages- you should complain about the people who get into BBs with bad grades solely through family connections. But I wouldn't recommend that- because that'll just make you a sour whiney bitch :(
gets popcorn
Ivy League students are obsessed with money. In fact for most of them money IS the end goal. That's why they set up the investment banking and management consulting industries. They offer services that add nothing to the economy to leech money from companies. It works pretty well. Once daddy hires a private tutor for you, you can be assured of straight A's at your private school. Then he'll hire a private SAT tutor so you can get 2200 and he'll call up his buddies and get you a nice spot at Harvard (he'll pay the $50k/year for that of course). Once at Harvard you can major in philosophy, get a 3.9 taking mostly intro classes. Around your junior year Goldman Sachs will come recruit on campus. Now mind you interviews are competitive but fuck it, your buddy from the dinner club's daddy will give you a nice spot filling out spreadsheets for 100 hours a week. Once you graduate you'll spend another 2 years filling out spreadsheets for $20/hr. Then it's time to go to buyside! Luckily for you you have a buddy from the yacht club whose daddy works at big PE fund. No problem getting a job filling out spreadsheets there! Now maybe you'll get paid $25/hour! See how your career takes off after Harvard?? You go from filling out spreadsheets for $20/hour to filling out spreadsheets for $25/hour and who knows what's next? Maybe this time next year you'll be changing fonts on Powerpoints for $30/hour. Gotta save up for that BMW M3!
yea fuck you state schoolers
you are undoubtedly the whiniest fucking bitch on this site. Seriously, you need to shut the fuck up and take ownership of your lifes fuckups. Sorry some people are just smarter than you, bro. Not everyone gets things handed to them, just because you think they do. oh, i went to a nontarget as well, but you don't see me bitching like you, cause i went out and fucking did something about it rather than sitting on this site bitching about the entitled ivy league kids. most of them aren't entitled whatsoever, but hey...keep bitching. whatever helps you go to sleep at night.
You do realize that you are describing less than 5% of target students right? Mind you there are plenty of people in targets who have affluent parents who can afford to pay for their schools (not me I took out all loans), but all that means is that maybe the parents make 300-400k a year as a lawyers ,accountants, small business owners, consultants, doctors, etc. None of these parents have "buddies" that can get their child into Harvard, and none of them have "buddies" from dinner clubs who are MD's at GS or in PE firms. There simply aren't that many "well connected" people out their in the world that can pave such a road for their children, and if they can their children are usually so spoiled by then that they have no chance of having the dedication to even survive banking. Even on a proportion basis, how many MD's are there in GS/MS/BX banking, and how many close friends do you think they have who's children they just get into a job easily? Maybe let's say 300 MD's who have 3 close friends each with let's even say 2 children. So that's 1800 people who get the easy road that you described, now compare that to how many target students there are per year, and then multiply that by 10 because people don't just keep popping out future banker kids, they stop at 1-3.
Being angry because life isn't as easy as it is for very, very few is just not practical. If every kid in Harvard or Stanford had everything so easy as you described, then I would understand. Or if this was the 1940's and you were a woman trying to get into finance but couldn't because you neglected your housewifing duties, then I would understand. But the world simply does not exist for 99% of people as you project it, and thats a fact.
Look, keep bitching and refuse to take ownership of your shortcomings- see where that leads you. Good News: In life, the best always rise to the top, even if they fucked up early on (in high school, college, etc). I still believe that. Life is a very very very long race, and you can make up for early stumbles if you run fast for the rest of it. But that won't happen if you spend all your time crying and asking why you're not already on top of the food chain. Either that, or go bomb GS and Harvard out of jealousy :)
Wish I had a SB. Shut the fuck up and curb your jealousy. I'm smart, but not smart enough to go to an Ivy, and I'm okay with that; I think that once I can get my foot in the door, regardless of where I am, I'll be able to prove my worth and be successful.
If you don't have connections getting into an Ivy League school is a complete crapshoot. It's like saying that flipping a coin takes hard work.
Once again, what the fuck are you talking about? I didn't go to an Ivy but I went to a strong target and friends of mine/coworkers who went to Ivys had absolutely no connections. It's a crapshoot in the sense that there might be 3 applicants with the exact same gpa/sats and they'll pick 1 based on 1 person playing tennis vs. the other two playing baseball, but if your a stronger applicant on paper they'll pick you.
Nobody has these bloody "connections" that you are so fascinated by.
my wife came from a lower middle class family in the midwest, with zero connections anywhere. she got in to harvard, dartmouth, and princeton.
Lol my girlfriend came from a poor immigrant family and got in to all 4 ivy league schools she applied to and she didn't have connections. But then, shes underrepresented (is asian underrepresented?) and from the poor fam. It takes hard work for sure.
I wouldn't say asians are under-represented...sooo many asians everywhere
This guy is simply an idiot.
i got to a non target however I do not hold ANY resentment towards kid who do go to targets. I have many friends at targets and 98% of there because they BUSTED THEIR ASS in HS to get there. im talking 10+ AP classes, 4.0+ gpas, 2100+ sats (so what if some of them had tutors? it still takes a shit of work and practice to get ur score up) and a ton of random clubs and whatnot. They are there for a reason, its because they are relatively smart and they worked hard in HS. so more power to em
I know damn well why im not at a target...cuz i was a lazy shit in HS. I had high SATS and a terrible gpa with 0 extracurriculars.
In the end though, if you work hard enough, it wont matter where you went. just my .02c
noke2012 .....right on. "In the end though, if you work hard enough, it wont matter where you went."
Gotta be hungry and you can't stop eating....With time.....everything....
lets be honest here the target kids are getting there asses handed to them
face it target kids america is starting to realize you are not the brightest of the bright as a few presidents have shown
I wouldn't be surprised if IB start passing up the target schools all together and just go with state schools who weren't spoon fed since birth
doesn't matter if the target kids are not the brightest of the bright, they are still likely to outsmart state kids, which is what matters. would you rather hire from a pool where 50% of kids are dumb fucks with rich daddy, or from a pool where 95% of kids are...you know state kids.
and for the record i go to a target
Rutgers
Going to a non-target does indeed suck, but I can't blame anyone but myself but where I'm at. Hopefully a solid graduate program will help me get things turned around. (along with networking)
I go to a non-target and it was because I didnt try my hardest, but I dont regret it at all......... i was busy banging my way through other things ( if you know what I mean). But I just need to work hard now and I realize that.
Its a part of growing up I guess. And yes if you go to a non-target and you do something outstanding you still have a shot at IBD my non-target is almost a semi ( you can say 2-3 peps go to goldman for FO every year).
I totally sympathize with the OP it certainly doesn't feel 'fair' that no banks come and do OCR at my school; I think its fine to have those feelings, I definitely do at times. And in my case going to a target / non-target was not remotely based on how 'hard' I worked in H.S.
That being said, realize (I have) that no one else gives a fuck about your feelings and what you think is fair / why it is or isn't and instead get some traction somewhere boutique to BB through sheer brute force or dumb luck. Otherwise you'll be stuck feeling that way for a long time which IMO doesn't feel great.
I come from a small town that probably has close to as many cows and apple farms as it does people. I still ended up getting into a target (Chicago), but I didn't know what the fuck an investment banker was in high school (was interested in other fields), they didn't offer me one cent of aid and I couldn't afford it, and it was 10+ hours away from home. Do I regret not picking Chicago? In hindsight, obviously. You can't keep dwelling on your past forever though, it'll kill you. I'm probably going to do an MSF, and once I break into the career I want, I'll appreciate it that much more. So maybe it'll all be for the better in the long run.
Sure, there are people at Ivies and other targets that come from the silver spoon background. But, like a lot of the previous posters have said, most of those people worked their asses off in high school to get into the target in the first place. They deserve to have it easier. We all have to put the work in to get into banking at some point, they just did it earlier than we did.
Thurnis, I believe you are on the wrong site. Let me redirect you. http://www.acorn.org/about
No patience for your shit here. Most posters are probably non core here, including myself. You are a whining piece of shit who thinks something should be handed to him because some kid at Yale got handed something and you are therefore entitled as well. That logic is retarded and I am glad I will never have to work with you because you are definitely too much of a retard to even be the janitor at UBS. Life ain't fair, no one ever said it was, hopefully I wont miss the urinal next time you are on day shift.
Op, unless you went to a high school where the average SAT is below 1400, where there pregnant teenagers, and gang problems, you have no room to be complaining.
well, going to a target is difficult too. i have two top-tier bb internships but didn't get a FT interview with one of the 2nd-tier BBs... wtf
Thurnis, Speaking from personal experience of going to a state school to a school that is decently recruited from, let me tell you, the grass is DEFINITELY greener on the other side. But the point is not even just getting in, its surviving and rising to the top there and moving on. I do not hate on the targets because I now realize getting in..yea thats nice...but you got to MAKE it most of the time. I just found out this morning that Blackstone recruits at my school. I almost got emotional because looking back a year ago where I was, i could have never dreamed i would even have the opportunity for my application to even get read. However, just cause you are at a Target DOES NOT guarantee you a job on the Street. You got to work hard and make a way there, and having a target (or semi-taget) name on your resume helps, but you still have to perform.
Its like getting drafted to the NBA, you signed a contract...yay...but you got to perform if you want to get to the big time (Lakers, Celtics, Heat, etc.). So just keep trying.
Lol, the butthurt is strong in this thread.
Target kids - quit whining, it is way easier for you guys to get banking jobs
Non-target kids - suck it up, hit the street, make some calls, go meet people, and find a frickin job
Lol, the butthurt is strong in this thread.
Target kids - quit whining, it is way easier for you guys to get banking jobs
Non-target kids - suck it up, hit the street, make some calls, go meet people, and find a frickin job
Going to a non-target doesn't suck at all. If your like me there is top 5 football program, real frat life, hot girls and you use your social skills to network in.
This thread = why I opted to not go IB and I'm still making bank working 45-55 hours a week and I LOVE my job.
Keep on keepin' on, kids...
wht do you do? VC i am guessing?
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