Fun Question about working at Trillium Trading

Hi guys,

Jumping straight to the point (Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's why I'm here!)

First year stats at Trillium Trading. 25K beg salary. 30% of P/L. $400,000 to play with.

Let's say I hope to make 60K my first year, which means I must make 35K for myself.

35k = 30% of x. x is profit I must generate for trillium to get 35k.

x = $116666.67

116666.67/400000 = 29.2% return.

That means I must beat the market with star hedge fund returns my first year, and I must do it consistently?

Any help on this will be greatly appreciated! Especially *Trade4Size. Since I hear you've worked there before?

Thanks,

 

Is that 400K with or without leverage?

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."
 
RadarBanker:
Stop wasting your time. I'll save you YEARS and YEARS of pain. Get a real job. That is a RIP OFF.

Churn and BURN. You are the churn and burn.

yes because the 700k+ ive taken home in 3 years out of school for working 9-4 is definitely churn and burn. without a dress code. would u like pictures of me in my sweats at work?

Here you go, enjoy

 
shorttheworld:
RadarBanker:
Stop wasting your time. I'll save you YEARS and YEARS of pain. Get a real job. That is a RIP OFF.

Churn and BURN. You are the churn and burn.

yes because the 700k+ ive taken home in 3 years out of school for working 9-4 is definitely churn and burn. without a dress code. would u like pictures of me in my sweats at work?

Here you go, enjoy

best post I've ever seen. my god, how do I become you?

 
shorttheworld:
RadarBanker:
Stop wasting your time. I'll save you YEARS and YEARS of pain. Get a real job. That is a RIP OFF.

Churn and BURN. You are the churn and burn.

yes because the 700k+ ive taken home in 3 years out of school for working 9-4 is definitely churn and burn. without a dress code. would u like pictures of me in my sweats at work?

Here you go, enjoy

LOL, genius ! Looks like you just had a delicious meal...or a delicious profit !

 
Best Response

While Trillium may not pay well, it does indeed meet the criteria for a "real job" (and yes, I understand you meant this figuratively). They are also spending lots of $$$ on renovations and such, which leads me to believe that they aren't doing too shabby financially.

To refer to them as a "churn & burn" is blatantly incorrect and frankly irresponsible since you clearly do not know anything about Trillium, Radar. The "churn & burn* shops are the so-called "arcades." They will hire absolutely anyone (no college degree necessary) ... that is, so long as you have minimal $5000 "initial contribution" in order to trade using their platforms. They lure you in by leveraging your position by like 50x or somewhere around there, but as you probably know this adds a higher degree of risk. You ultimately lose your $5000 in capital within the first month at most and are unemployed. They're called "churn & burns" due to the fact that they make their money from charging (typically excessive) brokerage fees on the trades, and couldn't really care less about your performance and/or growth as a trader.

To connect these two points ... There is a fine red line between shady arcades and mediocre prop shops. The way to differentiate the two is simple: If the shop offers you even a small salary NOR does it ask for any monetary contributions or wacky fees to get started then in all likelihood it is 100% legit and worth applying to. And again about Trillium, I'm not sure I would even refer to them as mediocre. They' re obviously no where near the level of most other major shops (Jane Street, Optiver, FNYS, SIG, etc.) but there are worse ones that still meet the criteria for legitimacy. I like to categorize them as "The Worst of the Best."

 

While the 21.875% does seem difficult to attain in your first year if you break it down further it doesn't seem all that bad.

There are roughly about 250 trading days in a year. 87500 / 250 = 350.

This means that you would have to make $350 a day with 400k buying power.

 

im looking around @ B schools right now for next year.. nah wont trade my account, i get all the capital i need or want here (and a free perk of free country club membership ;) ) and no risk to my personal account... and yeah its a legit concern so thats why you have to hedge yourself and network and learn more than just what youre doing.. do CFA etc and lateral over into port management or something

 

I started with 500k in buying power.

Generated 13.5% gross return my first year equaling roughly 67.5k After expenses were paid and trillium takes it's rather large cut I was left with roughly 12% of that 67.5k or about 8k

Of that 8k paid directly to me the government charged about 45% in taxes. That equates to just over 4k payout in cash after taxes. I left in a year to work for myself.

You need to make ABOVE average market returns consistently. While that is doable, in this slow churning market the day traders on any given day DO NOT have the edge. They all sit their with their fingers on the button just waiting for a Flash Crash / Knight Capital Explosion / etc. If these type of events do not occur you will NOT be making enough money. Unless naturally talented as a top day trader, you will NOT survive. Most people at trillium sit still until a black swan event occurs.

The training is TERRIBLE! You are paired with a "random" trader regardless they are successful themselves or not. You are then forced to learn their day trading style. If you can not cope it's on you to reach out to other unfriendly traders that see you more as competition then team. The best traders are young guys who will not share any edge with you. Some will gladly show you the charts after the trade takes place, but don't count on them to help you find the right ones.

 

one of my boys works there, he loves it and it is not shady at all. and from a prop shop, you're not going to have too much trouble moving into a HF or S&T prop trading. secondly, at a prop shop you can make obscene amounts of money. you directly control your compensation which is amazing. trillium and first new york are two of the most reputable prop shops in nyc.

 

Thanks a lot closer. I also have an interview next week with First New York. I am a little worried about compensation though. The markets move randomly, but I will remain confident. What I like about FNY over Trillium is that FNY trades options and does more position trading, where Trillium is more about day trading. If anyone else can give some helpful insight, anything would be greatly appreciated! Thanks all!

 

Flow trading in BB S&T or prop trading. I would take prop at a BB over those prop shops but the prop shops over flow trading at a BB.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

I dont view DRW as being necessarily superior to trillium or FNYS its just options trading vs equity trading.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 
George Parr:
Trillium / DRW / FNY / Jane Street.... I know there are a lot of names out there. But what are the few non-shady names? Are these the only few names?

I had the impression that Jane St. was heads and shoulders above the rest. Are the interviews at all these firms very technical? I had a JSC interview, and round 3 I got absolutely murdered.

 

Hey, I'm a soon to be college undergrad from a basic state school. I've had the opportunity to intern with Morgan Stanley a couple times, as well as Citi. I'm going to be interviewing with Trillium and First New York Securities in the near future for an assistant trader/training position. Any advice, in terms of preparation for the interview?

Thanks,

MGD

 

I can't PM you, I guess I need more banana points. Anyways, I know Trillium well. They are reputable. From personal experience, and everything I still know and hear, it's a very good opportunity. Trading is certainly not easy for a career, but Trillium Trading is one of the wiser choices to work for when choosing the right place for Equity Trading. Hope that was helpful. PM me if you want. Happy Holidays.

traderguy
 

they are a prop trading firm, and give you capital to trade on their behalf. you make money by splitting the profits....almost everyone there looks like an 18 yr old wearing t-shirts and jeans....seemed very sketchy to me....yet, they are a legitimate firm.

 

the only guy i know from wharton who's at trillian now was in my fnce 205 class and i thought he was a dumbass

basically, a prop shop full of hungry, ambitious kids who like to use their appetite for risk as a sort of substitute for their academic/intellectual inadequacies

 

To pay almost nothing in base salary and base it all on your P&L. That can be... challenging, to say the least, when you're living in NYC and have no money to start with.

$26K would be close to impossible unless you lived with family or something... on the upside, you wouldn't be paying much in the way of taxes with that kind of income. Maybe if you lived in the worst apartment you could find in Queens...

 

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traderguy

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