Fun Question about working at Trillium Trading
Hi guys,
Jumping straight to the point (Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's why I'm here!)
First year stats at Trillium Trading. 25K beg salary. 30% of P/L. $400,000 to play with.
Let's say I hope to make 60K my first year, which means I must make 35K for myself.
35k = 30% of x. x is profit I must generate for trillium to get 35k.
x = $116666.67
116666.67/400000 = 29.2% return.
That means I must beat the market with star hedge fund returns my first year, and I must do it consistently?
Any help on this will be greatly appreciated! Especially *Trade4Size. Since I hear you've worked there before?
Thanks,
Is that 400K with or without leverage?
I've heard it's 400k buying power.
I've also heard that the rate is 40%, not 30%... but I'll wait for someone who has actually worked there to confirm
Stop wasting your time. I'll save you YEARS and YEARS of pain. Get a real job. That is a RIP OFF.
Churn and BURN. You are the churn and burn.
yes because the 700k+ ive taken home in 3 years out of school for working 9-4 is definitely churn and burn. without a dress code. would u like pictures of me in my sweats at work?
Here you go, enjoy
best post I've ever seen. my god, how do I become you?
LOL, genius ! Looks like you just had a delicious meal...or a delicious profit !
Let's say 40%
it is still at $87,500.
87500/400000 = still a hefty 21.875 %
what do you guys think? Am i wrong?
While Trillium may not pay well, it does indeed meet the criteria for a "real job" (and yes, I understand you meant this figuratively). They are also spending lots of $$$ on renovations and such, which leads me to believe that they aren't doing too shabby financially.
To refer to them as a "churn & burn" is blatantly incorrect and frankly irresponsible since you clearly do not know anything about Trillium, Radar. The "churn & burn* shops are the so-called "arcades." They will hire absolutely anyone (no college degree necessary) ... that is, so long as you have minimal $5000 "initial contribution" in order to trade using their platforms. They lure you in by leveraging your position by like 50x or somewhere around there, but as you probably know this adds a higher degree of risk. You ultimately lose your $5000 in capital within the first month at most and are unemployed. They're called "churn & burns" due to the fact that they make their money from charging (typically excessive) brokerage fees on the trades, and couldn't really care less about your performance and/or growth as a trader.
To connect these two points ... There is a fine red line between shady arcades and mediocre prop shops. The way to differentiate the two is simple: If the shop offers you even a small salary NOR does it ask for any monetary contributions or wacky fees to get started then in all likelihood it is 100% legit and worth applying to. And again about Trillium, I'm not sure I would even refer to them as mediocre. They' re obviously no where near the level of most other major shops (Jane Street, Optiver, FNYS, SIG, etc.) but there are worse ones that still meet the criteria for legitimacy. I like to categorize them as "The Worst of the Best."
While the 21.875% does seem difficult to attain in your first year if you break it down further it doesn't seem all that bad.
There are roughly about 250 trading days in a year. 87500 / 250 = 350.
This means that you would have to make $350 a day with 400k buying power.
Don't discuss comp publicly like this. It always comes back to bite you.
But to answer your question, yes they're a legit shop. And yes, if you're a trader, you have to make money. That's what traders do- that's what you signed up for when you took the job. (And that's part of the reason I chose the quant route.)
and you have to think about the returns as P&L, not a percentage like a hedge fund or mutual fund or anything like that-- its very different
andddd in terms of us and FNYS, from what i hear from friends who work there (who used to work at SMB that share a floor with us), things are generally the same although they tend to be much more long term focused vs our short term focus although we have bboxes, portfolio managers etc here as well
shorttheworld how long do you expect to stay there/ what are your options afterward? or would u just trade your own account..im afraid of a profession like that because what if it somehow becomes impossible to be successful in it in the future and then you have no real skills to make a living
im looking around @ B schools right now for next year.. nah wont trade my account, i get all the capital i need or want here (and a free perk of free country club membership ;) ) and no risk to my personal account... and yeah its a legit concern so thats why you have to hedge yourself and network and learn more than just what youre doing.. do CFA etc and lateral over into port management or something
Do not think about trading as "beating the market" as a money manager goes about it. It's a completely different game, and that is what academic economists who tout efficient markets don't understand.
yesman,
I agree. Can you elaborate a little more with an example?
I started with 500k in buying power.
Generated 13.5% gross return my first year equaling roughly 67.5k After expenses were paid and trillium takes it's rather large cut I was left with roughly 12% of that 67.5k or about 8k
Of that 8k paid directly to me the government charged about 45% in taxes. That equates to just over 4k payout in cash after taxes. I left in a year to work for myself.
You need to make ABOVE average market returns consistently. While that is doable, in this slow churning market the day traders on any given day DO NOT have the edge. They all sit their with their fingers on the button just waiting for a Flash Crash / Knight Capital Explosion / etc. If these type of events do not occur you will NOT be making enough money. Unless naturally talented as a top day trader, you will NOT survive. Most people at trillium sit still until a black swan event occurs.
The training is TERRIBLE! You are paired with a "random" trader regardless they are successful themselves or not. You are then forced to learn their day trading style. If you can not cope it's on you to reach out to other unfriendly traders that see you more as competition then team. The best traders are young guys who will not share any edge with you. Some will gladly show you the charts after the trade takes place, but don't count on them to help you find the right ones.
Trillium Trading Offer (Originally Posted: 11/27/2007)
Hi All,
I just received an offer from a small prop. shop, Trillium Trading. In my mind, it is the best prop. firm out there, since they provide you with 400k capital, and you do not need to bring your own. Also, their technology is constantly being improved. Yet, I am a litte hesitant on accepting. I have a 3.8 cum. from a non-ivy league, have had internships with UBS Research as well as Merrill Wealth Management.
S&T does not come to my school, only Trillium did. I was wondering if there are any exit opportunities? Is this a shady gig? It is hard to find info about this. Please help guyes! I am new to this forum.
one of my boys works there, he loves it and it is not shady at all. and from a prop shop, you're not going to have too much trouble moving into a HF or S&T prop trading. secondly, at a prop shop you can make obscene amounts of money. you directly control your compensation which is amazing. trillium and first new york are two of the most reputable prop shops in nyc.
Thanks a lot closer. I also have an interview next week with First New York. I am a little worried about compensation though. The markets move randomly, but I will remain confident. What I like about FNY over Trillium is that FNY trades options and does more position trading, where Trillium is more about day trading. If anyone else can give some helpful insight, anything would be greatly appreciated! Thanks all!
When you're trading you make very very very short term trades and it's based on volatility I don't think you'll be begging for cash during a recession don't worry
I just got an offer from Trillium as well, did you end up accepting Blatant?
If there is a choice... let's just say
trading position S&T in BB versus prop trading in Trillium/DRW/FNY. What would it be?
Flow trading in BB S&T or prop trading. I would take prop at a BB over those prop shops but the prop shops over flow trading at a BB.
"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"
I dont view DRW as being necessarily superior to trillium or FNYS its just options trading vs equity trading.
"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"
Trillium / DRW / FNY / Jane Street.... I know there are a lot of names out there. But what are the few non-shady names? Are these the only few names?
I had the impression that Jane St. was heads and shoulders above the rest. Are the interviews at all these firms very technical? I had a JSC interview, and round 3 I got absolutely murdered.
Hey, I'm a soon to be college undergrad from a basic state school. I've had the opportunity to intern with Morgan Stanley a couple times, as well as Citi. I'm going to be interviewing with Trillium and First New York Securities in the near future for an assistant trader/training position. Any advice, in terms of preparation for the interview?
Thanks,
MGD
Anyone work/worked for Trillium Trading? (Originally Posted: 12/21/2012)
I have some specific questions about this firm and was wondering if you have worked for them if you could send me a PM to speak with you. I would really appreciate it.
Thanks guys
never heard of them
I would love to talk to you about your experience with Trillium Trading! I am interested in their internship program and would like to learn more about how interns play a role in their day-to-day activities as well as how interns are compensated? PM me or let me know if you have time to talk later this week! Thanks
chop shop
I can't PM you, I guess I need more banana points. Anyways, I know Trillium well. They are reputable. From personal experience, and everything I still know and hear, it's a very good opportunity. Trading is certainly not easy for a career, but Trillium Trading is one of the wiser choices to work for when choosing the right place for Equity Trading. Hope that was helpful. PM me if you want. Happy Holidays.
Trillium - Any info or insight? (Originally Posted: 04/13/2007)
anyone on here heard of Trillium Trading? I've got a friend interviewing there, told him i would try and find some info
they are a prop trading firm, and give you capital to trade on their behalf. you make money by splitting the profits....almost everyone there looks like an 18 yr old wearing t-shirts and jeans....seemed very sketchy to me....yet, they are a legitimate firm.
the only guy i know from wharton who's at trillian now was in my fnce 205 class and i thought he was a dumbass
basically, a prop shop full of hungry, ambitious kids who like to use their appetite for risk as a sort of substitute for their academic/intellectual inadequacies
Trillium Question (Originally Posted: 02/15/2009)
I've read a bit about Trillium from the site and now know that the salary is 500/week plus profits. My family does not live in New York and I don't go to school in new york (im a few hours away). My question is does anyone know an average of how much people make there and the percentage of people that don't get fired? I'm more concerned about the former as I will barely be able to live on a 24K salary. If the first bonus/drawdown isn't for, lets say, six months, I won't even bother making the trip down for the first round interview (which is nonrefundable). Any info would be very helpful. Thanks
From what Ive heard they have already given out more offers than slots available.
hm interesting.... so what do you think .. worth the trip or no? fyi i have no other offers at the time but simply cannot afford to live in ny on this salary.
anyone have any input on this?
I have heard that the mean comp for Trillium first years is around 65k with a few people taking in 25k and a few people taking in 100k+.
Trillium Trading - Any insight? (Originally Posted: 12/18/2006)
Ever heard of it? what's the view? any insight much appreciated.
I just recently got an offer from Trillium. They're located in midtown Manhattan. Pay $26k for first year hires. Definitely a reputable prop shop. If you are given the opportunity, definitely apply for a position. The website has a good rundown http://www.trilliumtrading.com/insidetemplate.jsp?menuid=proprietarytra…
Also, they hire mostly from Ivys so if you're looking for prestige, you will definitely find it there.
How can anyone live on 26k in NYC?
To pay almost nothing in base salary and base it all on your P&L. That can be... challenging, to say the least, when you're living in NYC and have no money to start with.
$26K would be close to impossible unless you lived with family or something... on the upside, you wouldn't be paying much in the way of taxes with that kind of income. Maybe if you lived in the worst apartment you could find in Queens...
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