GETCO vs Citadel

I understand that working at a place like Citadel probably has a greater upside in the long run, since the most successful hedge fund managers/long-term traders in general make a lot more than the most successful high frequency traders, but Getco definitely pays more to start with and it's also definitely a safer career choice.

It also seems like high frequency trading would be a lot more fun—you get results within a day rather than having to wait months for your positions to move with or against you.

Does anyone have an opinion? Where would you rather work?

 
monkeysama:
Do you have offers from both companies? Because otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.

If you do then you're just making momnkeysama very jealous

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

Both are great places to work and both are quite prestigious. A couple things to think about:

Citadel's burnout rate is still pretty high. The environment is pretty intense. You'll be making more than you will at GETCO, assuming that you make it that long there.

Just wondering, why do you think GETCO is a safer career choice? For the reasons I just listed or something else?

 

i mean high frequency trading in general is fairly safe. as a hedge fund manager you can make a brilliant positive expected value decision and still end up bankrupt if you're unlucky. in high frequency market making if you know what you're doing you're basically going to make money with probability 1

 
trade4size:
LMAO. Another cocky little shit that thinks trading is about a math equation.

why are you being a fucking prick i have offers from getco and citadel i'm not an idiot. sorry that what i said was too complicated for you to understand

 
arden:
i don't want to be too specific but trading for both. and i think discussions of the pros/cons are useful for anyone looking at working at one or both firms in the future who's searching through the forums, even if i didn't have offers

If I were you I would go GETCO. Turnover at Citadel is supposed to be notoriously bad. Plus, if I were working at a HF I think that I wouldn't want to be a trader - they mostly work for the PMs who make most of the investment decisions which I think would be more interesting. Then again, since GETCO is HFT it might be similar.

But yeah, turnover at Citadel is so bad it's like they're not offering you a job so much as a 50/50 shot at the unemployment line in 6 months.

 

Monkeysama, I'm pretty sure Citadel has a HFT group.

Arden, I think this might be relevant to you.

Have you heard of how Teza Technologies was founded? Basically the head of the HFT group at Citadel quit his job and founded Teza Technologies, breaking a noncompete agreement. Citadel then proceeded to sue Teza for a lot of money, and this is a pretty hilarious court document describing how the head of Teza, Malyshev had a collection of hardcore porn on his computer which caused him to delete and use commercial scrubbing software to destroy a lot of evidence critical to the case.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCUQFjAD&url=http%3…

 

[quote=7toaster]Monkeysama, I'm pretty sure Citadel has a HFT group.

Arden, I think this might be relevant to you.

Have you heard of how Teza Technologies was founded? Basically the head of the HFT group at Citadel quit his job and founded Teza Technologies, breaking a noncompete agreement. Citadel then proceeded to sue Teza for a lot of money, and this is a pretty hilarious court document describing how the head of Teza, Malyshev had a collection of hardcore porn on his computer which caused him to delete and use commercial scrubbing software to destroy a lot of evidence critical to the case.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCUQFjAD&url=http%3…]

You missed my point. The fact that GETCO is HFT means it may have a top down decision hierarchy, which is a bad thing if you want some initiative of your own.

 
7toaster:
Didn't you say you believed that both Citadel and GETCO have top-down hierarchies? Both of these places are companies, which means you do what your boss tells you.

Unless you go into academia, entrepreneurship, or work for Google, you're always going to follow orders from your boss.

Yes and no. Depending on the role in trading you can have a lot of personal initiative. Say you're a trader and made the company buku cash the last quarter - obviously whatever you're doing worked and so you're boss leaves you to it. This may have become less true with the rise of HFT strategies that require multi-person teams, but that's another story.

 

monkeysama,

I don't know a great deal about GETCO but I have talked to a couple of their recruiters and interviewed with them. They left me the impression that there is a great deal of room for taking initiative, and real opportunity to do well extremely quickly if your work warrants it.

I haven't worked there, so again this was just my impression from ~1.5 hours of conversation + an hour of interview. In any case, I suspect that's more facetime than you have had with them. It's pretty hard to know what life is really like there from the outside in any case.. Maybe that one poster will come and drop the two names and some vague threats about how tightly info is held ^^

 
juked07:
monkeysama,

I don't know a great deal about GETCO but I have talked to a couple of their recruiters and interviewed with them. They left me the impression that there is a great deal of room for taking initiative, and real opportunity to do well extremely quickly if your work warrants it.

I haven't worked there, so again this was just my impression from ~1.5 hours of conversation + an hour of interview. In any case, I suspect that's more facetime than you have had with them. It's pretty hard to know what life is really like there from the outside in any case.. Maybe that one poster will come and drop the two names and some vague threats about how tightly info is held ^^

Oh yeah, I'm just pissing in the wind. I also suspect that the most salient point is the belief you have in the group interviewing you. I think there is probably a ton of variability in both firms, and at that level, the best bet would be to go with the section that is most likely to take care of you.

 

If you're part of a multi-person team, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a top-down structure. In the HFT world, it's all about the strength of ideas. If your idea is a good one, your team will listen to it. Also, each team member has a say in the direction of the team, obviously, since they make money or lose money together.

I'm going to be a developer, Arden's gonna be a trader. In the past traders were the bosses, and told devs what to do and when it needs to be done by, but now it's basically flat between traders and devs (because they need us pretty bad).

Additionally, Citadel does HFT as well.

Although it sounds like OP is being hired at Citadel for hedge fund related stuff, only at Citadel will he have the opportunity to give both a try if he's not too sure which he will like better.

 

Citadel pays the incoming analysts very well. Base salary is $100K, $20K signing, $5K for moving costs, and a discretionary bonus at year's end. No idea how much GETCO pays.

Unless you're a hardcore programming quant, I'd go with citadel. You learn a lot more, and you'll have better exit options with citadel on your resume. The guys I know who worked there were able to write their own tickets.

 

"No idea how much GETCO pays."

Well then why are you trying to compare? One of my close friends is considering an offer from GETCO, and he told me what typical discretionary bonuses are for 1st and 2nd years. When I heard the average numbers my jaws literally dropped.

JJC, I don't doubt that Citadel pays well since it sounds like you have an intimate friend / offer from there, but trust me that Arden's done his research when he says "GETCO definitely pays more to start with."

Also, wtf is a "Programming quant"? Those words don't even make sense. It's an oxymoron, like calling someone a "virgin whore." Programmers write code. We do computer stuff. Quants do intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D for new models. These are complete opposites lol.

 
7toaster:
"No idea how much GETCO pays."

Well then why are you trying to compare? One of my close friends is considering an offer from GETCO, and he told me what typical discretionary bonuses are for 1st and 2nd years. When I heard the average numbers my jaws literally dropped.

JJC, I don't doubt that Citadel pays well since it sounds like you have an intimate friend / offer from there, but trust me that Arden's done his research when he says "GETCO definitely pays more to start with."

Also, wtf is a "Programming quant"? Those words don't even make sense. It's an oxymoron, like calling someone a "virgin whore." Programmers write code. We do computer stuff. Quants do intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D for new models. These are complete opposites lol.

I know several second-year analysts at citadel who were making roughly 350-400K including bonus. If the number at GETCO is larger than that, then i stand corrected.

I meant to say "programmer/quant." Whatever. You can't get hired as a quant unless you know programming.

 
jjc1122:
7toaster:
"No idea how much GETCO pays."

Well then why are you trying to compare? One of my close friends is considering an offer from GETCO, and he told me what typical discretionary bonuses are for 1st and 2nd years. When I heard the average numbers my jaws literally dropped.

JJC, I don't doubt that Citadel pays well since it sounds like you have an intimate friend / offer from there, but trust me that Arden's done his research when he says "GETCO definitely pays more to start with."

Also, wtf is a "Programming quant"? Those words don't even make sense. It's an oxymoron, like calling someone a "virgin whore." Programmers write code. We do computer stuff. Quants do intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D for new models. These are complete opposites lol.

I know several second-year analysts at citadel who were making roughly 350-400K including bonus. If the number at GETCO is larger than that, then i stand corrected.

I meant to say "programmer/quant." Whatever. You can't get hired as a quant unless you know programming.

There's actually a very, very high probability that some people at GETCO are making that much or more second year. I have this on good faith.

 
jjc1122:
7toaster:
"No idea how much GETCO pays."

Well then why are you trying to compare? One of my close friends is considering an offer from GETCO, and he told me what typical discretionary bonuses are for 1st and 2nd years. When I heard the average numbers my jaws literally dropped.

JJC, I don't doubt that Citadel pays well since it sounds like you have an intimate friend / offer from there, but trust me that Arden's done his research when he says "GETCO definitely pays more to start with."

Also, wtf is a "Programming quant"? Those words don't even make sense. It's an oxymoron, like calling someone a "virgin whore." Programmers write code. We do computer stuff. Quants do intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D for new models. These are complete opposites lol.

I know several second-year analysts at citadel who were making roughly 350-400K including bonus. If the number at GETCO is larger than that, then i stand corrected.

significantly larger

 
Best Response
7toaster:
"No idea how much GETCO pays."

Well then why are you trying to compare? One of my close friends is considering an offer from GETCO, and he told me what typical discretionary bonuses are for 1st and 2nd years. When I heard the average numbers my jaws literally dropped.

JJC, I don't doubt that Citadel pays well since it sounds like you have an intimate friend / offer from there, but trust me that Arden's done his research when he says "GETCO definitely pays more to start with."

Also, wtf is a "Programming quant"? Those words don't even make sense. It's an oxymoron, like calling someone a "virgin whore." Programmers write code. We do computer stuff. Quants do intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D for new models. These are complete opposites lol.

Although I don't know that this is the case for either of the two firms in the OP (and probably it's not) the words "programming quant" actually do make sense. There are at least a few well regarded firms in which the people who do "intense academic-quality market-analysis and R&D..." and "write code...do computer stuff" are the same exact people, and are generally referred to as just "quants." Just a quick fyi..

 

Haha, ok my bad then. In the firm I just got hired for, quants are as far from software engineering as you get. At that firm, there's the hardcore software developers, which handle all practical things, there's traders, and there's the hardcore theoretical Ph. D quants. I guess what I meant isn't that it's an oxymoron, but it's the phrase "programming quant" runs the whole gamut and is pretty unspecialized. It's like saying you're a "front office back office person" or a "software developer specializing in everything from javascript to SQL."

 

There are people are many trading firms (prob at least a dozen in that old thread) making >$300 in their 2nd year trading and some even 7 figures by 3rd-4th year (at which point they can/will be essentially a senior trader/account manager at most of these places). Not everyone, obviously, but rockstars at pretty much all firms can swing those on good runs. Survivorship bias is also strong....

It is going to depend a lot on what desk/division you're going to end up on at Citadel... and please people, Citadel is one of the biggest market-makers out there. They have a lot more than just their hedge funds.

 

What happens to non-survivors? Where do they go? I don't know about you, but I really wouldn't mind a constant intake of $200-$300k a year for the rest of my life... who says people either make 1 mill/year by year 4 or they quit/get fired?

 
7toaster:
What happens to non-survivors? Where do they go? I don't know about you, but I really wouldn't mind a constant intake of $200-$300k a year for the rest of my life... who says people either make 1 mill/year by year 4 or they quit/get fired?

"Go develop quant models you risk averse pussy." - Shorttheworld.

In all seriousness, lots of market makers stay around 200-500k for a long time. Not everyone needs to make mills.

 
7toaster:
What happens to non-survivors? Where do they go? I don't know about you, but I really wouldn't mind a constant intake of $200-$300k a year for the rest of my life... who says people either make 1 mill/year by year 4 or they quit/get fired?

When did I say or suggest that it is either $1mill by year 4 or fired? They don't start you right off the bat managing a large group that may include multiple traders. It takes time to develop a track record and experience to be able to trade significant size, have on risk, etc. to generate those kinds of PnLs as a MM (in options at least). The other poster is right too that there are a ton of guys in the mid 6 figure range that hang around there for a while (perhaps forever). I mean there are guys who still trade out of their own personal account as locals on the floor, putting up their own capital... Those are definitely older guys who continue to grind it out. If you're still in college (ie can get during the day), check out the grain pits sometime at the CME the day of a big number if only for entertainment purposes.

Non-survivors are people who didn't enjoy/couldn't handle the work for whatever reason.... which led to either them getting fired or simply quitting. I know of people at various firms, gone within 1-2 years, who have ended up doing all sorts of things. IBanking, law school, random-TFA-type-job, medical school, electrical engineering, backpack across Europe while smoking lots of pot, etc.

 

When you said "survivorship bias is strong" for the year 4+'s I assumed you meant that there is some kind of "culling of the weak" going on...

If you ask me, it sounds like it's not "survivorship bias" but the "spotlight bias" going on in this forum. Just like when you do really well in gambling or poker you brag about it to people and they spread the word around, but when you kinda suck and lose a little money you don't tell a soul. Or like how among Asian parent circles, everyone always talks about the genius kid who went to Harvard or MIT and shames and guilt trips their own kids endlessly about it, but no one ever talks about the kid who did average and went to community college.

People like talking about the exceptions, so the exceptional cases are overrepresented in conversations.

 

There is a culling of the weak and those that are able to stick with it successfully tend to make large sums of money (substantially more than you would likely believe). It is survivorship bias because the majority of people that start in trading do not end their careers as traders, while those that stick with it tends to be good at what they do, tend to end up on a sick product, manage a group, have more flexibility to take on risk, etc. all of which can significantly increase how much money you can make outside of even pure trading 'skill' (I purposely put that in quotes). Get on a product with tons of two sided trade and lots of edge and you can significantly outperform a 'better' trader on a shit product.... this is referring specifically to option MM at least, which Citadel is a massive player in and I presume is one area that the OP may be considered for should he end up there.

Go to any one of these firms and have people raise their hands.... who has been here for more than 5 years.... who has been here for more than 3 years..... more than 2 years.... etc. The turnover is tremendous and those that make it are rewarded. And if you're the type of person that just wants to grind $200k a year for the rest of your life.... you probably aren't the same type of person that sticks out at one of these places (not that you can't be a good trader, it just isn't the personality type that tends to be common amongst the most successful).

 

Question -

Citadel appears to hire people with a quant background (math, quantitative economics, physics, etc), but from these forums it appears as if GETCO relies primarily on people with strong programming skills. Am I correct? (I'm transitioning from academic research @ top-tier school with background in the former not the later).

 

These $400K+ numbers are fairly absurd, but I don't doubt them. Anyone know of places outside these two firms where that kind of dough flies around for 2nd/3rd year guys? Shaw/AQR? Jane St/SIG/DRW/etc.? Obviously not the norm, but interesting to see which places throw around the big bucks early, since as far as I can tell, most (not all) BB analyst jobs are too firmly structured for a pay-day like that.

 

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