how is an actuarial science degree viewed?
I was wondering how an actuarial science degree is viewed among recruiters and among the general finance public (ex. bankers, traders etc.)
Do they even know what actuarial science is? Do they view it as a quantitative major or as a "lesser" major? How does it stand against a major such as math? (Act sci basically is like 3/4 of a math major).
I was thinking of double majoring in finance and actuarial science but would finance and math be a more impressive looking combo?
PS. I am very strong in my math abilities so doing a math major over an act sci won't make much of a difference. However act sci does seem to lean more towards finance and investments, hence my hesitation here.
All opinions would be greatly appreciated!
I can't speak to the actuarial science degree per se, but the math major definitely gets serious respect. If you're doubling with finance, the finance/investment aspect of the actuarial science degree is pretty redundant (unless you actually want to be an actuary). If you think you can handle it, do the math-finance double. The finance degree will set you up well for business stuff, and the math major will prove your quantitative/analytical chops.
I respect actuaries quite a bit. Those tests are damned hard and if you can make Fellow in CAS or SOA I tip my hat to you because, again, those tests are damned hard.
^Aren't you a PhD? Wow. I'm writing the FM exam this fall.
^Yes I am. When I was a grad student I took stat mech, quantum, QFT, and more math/stats than I care to remember and even then the sampler of actuarial questions I took kicked my ass. Nothing in my education prepared me for exam 3 and beyond. I might have done better if I learned the jargon (what is "force of interest" anyways?) but putting that aside they were still tricky.
I was thinking of doing an actuarial science degree not for the exams, but for the sake of showing my quantitative abilities, and the potential extra level of respect it may receive, by it being a quantitative major. Furthermore I highly doubt that bankers/traders will recognize the actuarial exams and the degree of difficulty it holds.
So to current bankers / traders: if you see a kid that double majored in finance and actuarial science, how much respect would it get? Would a double major in finance and math far exceed that of finance + actuarial science?
If you want to highlight your Quant side just do Finance and Math/Stat/Physics etc.
I've heard of actuarial science. The only kid in my finance classes that provided some serious competition for grades who wasn't an engineering major was in actuarial science.
IMHO, it's as good as a stats degree. But if you're set up to be an actuary, why in the hell would you throw that all away to go into a dying industry like banking? It would be like an electrician 30 years ago deciding that he can make more money working for GM and that he should go work there because they're such a cool employer and all the rage in Detroit. You'd have to have a three inch hole in your head to trade in a stable career as an insurance executive working 9-5 for a banking career working 5-9 (5PM-9AM) in an unstable industry.
The world will always need actuaries- they've been around since the Scottish Widow's Fund. And in an age of financial uncertainty, death is still a pretty darned certain science when it comes to annuities and life insurance.
Stick to insurance. You can always trade viaticals if you change your mind.
Do you think a degree in act sci would be redundant if I were to be taking just for the sake of proving my quantitative abilities? Would a degree in statistics be preferable over act sci? (I'm asking this in terms of landing a job in both banking and in trading)
I think applied math would be a strong degree, but why banking or trading? Why not insurance? It's a nice, stable industry with not all that much competition. All things being equal, I think it is more likely that you'll become the CEO of a Fortune 500 firm if you become an actuary than if you become a trader or even an investment banker.
When everyone and their uncle wants a job in banking or trading, you know the industry is overbought. Going into trading right now is like buying a Hummer back in 2005. You don't want to be doing what everyone else is doing right now because the market will get more efficient, there will be fewer opportunities to make money, capital will be more scarce, and you've got all of these headwinds. Just like the fact that everyone got a hummer, it wasn't special anymore, and now gas prices are really high because people are getting 7 mpg in their cars.
Seriously think about becoming an actuary or a risk manager. Those are highly specialized roles that should have stable job prospects over the next forty years. Anybody can be a trader- it takes a great deal of intellect to be an actuary.
^^ Agree with the above on actuarial having job security, as it is specialized with hard exams as entrance barrier. But to answer your original question: if you are not planning to go into actuarial and take those exams then no point of doing that major. You will gain more respect as math major in trading.
I have a similar degree. It's viewed as "hard," i.e., on the same level as math. Not particularly helpful for banking though.
Agreed with kbluearmor7. Also, if you want to have some plan B in case your finance career doesn't work out as you expected it to be, having taken some actuarial tests can be a signal for insurance companies.
As an applied math major who had considered (not quite seriously though) being an actuary, it is a legit career and tests are not that easy. Ok the first few tests might be easy but it gets harder and harder..... Yet the job can be boring if you are not that type of person who like to sit down and calculate the probability of your company's clients dying earlier than the normal life expectancy and how much profit that will bring to your company. Having talked with some industry professionals I'd say that it is a very static and risk-averse job, too, which is the reason why I chose to go to trading instead.
what the heck is actuarial science? Is that another joke degree?
Are you serious? Actuarial science is one of the most difficult white collard professions out there. When my father was CFO of Kansas City Life his right-hand man was an actuary.
To the OP's questions, any employer who doesn't respect an actuarial science degree or a professional actuary is probably a dumb ass and has no business working in finance.
Spoke with a buddy of mine for you OP who actually passed the first (an possibly second) level of the Actuarial exams. He said that just having passed the level one exam on his resume actually turned a few heads and got him some looks. He wasn't an actuarial science major though he was a math-finance-econ triple major at a semi-target. So if you're interested in it, you can major in Math and still take at least the first level and, at least in some ways, get the best of both worlds.
But the OP is talking about an actuarial science DEGREE not the profession itself. I think OP if you're talking about getting an act sci DEGREE you might as well just get math or stats, I'm pretty sure people will view act sci and stats in exactly the same level. Only Math will get you viewed upon more highly.
When all is said and done: those who know, respect actuaries. But yes, the actuarial DEGREE is seen as something on par with agronomy or oenology or something like that -- too practical to have the snob appeal of a liberal arts major like math, physics or even stats.
what the heck? you say that Actaries are very well respected but then the Act Sci degree is viewed as a complete joke? Do you guys realize you are contradicting yourselves?
I guess based on your logic that Doctors are very well respected but the medical degree itself is a complete joke akin to that of agronomy or oenology. Yea?
chubbybunny and ivoteforthatguy you are both complete idiots. Someone other then petty college freshmen have insight on Act Sci degrees?
Well I have to say coming from a person who is working, and having friends in actuarial jobs. The degree itself is just a degree...(I think this is what the other two post is trying to say)... people on the street won't give you high marks for getting the degree, it's not like you got a PhD in math. However, once you passed all the test and become a real actuary, then people give you lot of respect for going through all that. You can't compare it to a MD for doctor, as they go through 4 more years + residency, while you are just UG even with an Actuarial science degree.
With that said, more people on the street give higher respect to a hardcore math major (doubling with something else) at UG level then that of act sci.
^We are trying to give you honest advice. Would you prefer that we lie to you?
You're going to have three views of actuaries on the street:
Category 3 is a tiny, tiny minority.
You are obviously very young and have yet to deal with the fact that there is snobbery in the world. Go to a Goldman happy hour and talk about your actuarial degree. Tell me how many brownie points that wins you.
Calm down, or at least wait for the hordes of guys on this thing to start posting and telling me that I am totally wrong.
There is not a person in finance who doesnt have a base knowledge of what actuarial science is. Whoever says otherwise is either wrong or their boss or firm is totally unsuccesful or run by morons, respectively.
its a little too quant / nerdy for bankers honestly. better off with either finance or economics.
(1) Finance/economics
how is an Actuarial Science degree viewed? (Originally Posted: 11/10/2010)
I know that traders love to see quantitative majors and I was wondering how an actuarial science degree would be viewed in terms of landing a job/internship in trading?
Do firms know what an actuarial science degree entails, or would I have to spend considerable time explaining what it is? Would having a double major in actuarial science and finance be advantageous to me in finding an internship/job in trading or would it be viewed in the same way as a stats degree? Would a double major in finance and math be much better?
I think math and finance is a better idea. Why try to brand yourself as an actuary if you have no intention on entering the field? Not to mention, almost all actuaries I know were math majors so you would have no problem becoming an actuary with the math/finance background.
Any particular reason you want to major in actuarial science? Easier workload?
Getting into Life Settlements?
Trading longevity risk?
Actuarial Science major is pointless, even if you want to be an actuary. Much better off with Math+Econ or Math+Finance.
I'm actually not planning to go into an actuarial career at all, I'm taking it to prove my quantitative abilities to future employers, so I was wondering how an actuarial science degree is perceived? Is it viewed as "just another complement" (ex. Accounting) or does it prove to the employer that the applicant is quantitative (like a math/engineering degree does).
As a sidenote, I'm planning to enter trading so this question specifically applies to trader recruiting, where quantitative abilities are valued.
Also would you perceive a double major in finance and actuarial science better than a double major in finance and statistics? Or would you view them as the same?
I'm really having trouble understanding how you were coherent and with it enough to write this and not realize you answered your own question. " Prove that the applicant is quantitative (like math/engineering degree does)." Why not just do the math degree and remove all possible doubt about perception or whatever? It just makes sense. If you want to prove your quantiness just do math....don't over think things.
I know this is extremely late but I came across this thread and I am just wondering what you mean by "does it prove you are quantitative (math/engineering)?" The reason I ask is because I am considering a major in Actuarial Science, Computer Engineering, or Computer Science, however, I am not too sure if I would like to be an actuary. I would like to get into the tech side of finance though.
thank you.
Like I have said, for trading go with math.
finance + statistics > finance + actuarial.
Actuarial isn't highly viewed upon in trading, it's not like you have an MFE. If you are serious about trading, and have high quant abilities math is the may to go, and minor in comp sci or double major it. And get yourself into a MFE program. I wouldn't even think about actuarial.
I'm sure that actuarial sci. is a challenging major, but it still doesn't seem any impressive to me... =/ Go with finance/math/statistics.
Wow finance/statistics is viewed better than finance/act sci?
Act sci is pretty much a stats/math major - i'd have thought that at the most, finance/stats would be viewed the same as finance/act sci but i didn't know finance/stats would be looked better upon...
Is statistics even considered a quantitative major?
Why do you want to do actuarial science over math or stats?
Because Actuarial Science is much more intensive than a stats major but lesser intensive than a math major. Plus I can graduate half a semester early...
To get straight to the point, in terms of judging a resume for trading, how do you guys view it:
Math>Act Sci> Stats or Math > Stats > Act Sci or Math > Act Sci = Stats ?
Math>Act Sci> Stats
I'd go Math > act sci = stats
I would certainly think that an Act sci degree would prove your quantitative abilities, so if act sci is what you want, definitely go for it. I also have a ton of respect for guys that can pass a couple of those actuarial exams. My brother (super smart guy, much smarter than me) was studying for it a while back... shit ain't easy. Not that I recommend anyone take the exams if you don't actually want to be an actuary though (it is a solid back-up however).
If I took the first actsci exam, can I use it as leverage to help show my quantitative ability in an interview?
Did you pass it or just take it? If you passed it then I would include it somewhere
First off most ppl do not 100% understand what an actuary is or what they do. Anyone in trading will look at you as changing your career path.
Actuaries have a very defined career path with exams, years experience and pay level. Actuaries do not get huge bonus' each year.
A.S is much harder than just plain statistics.
I think the OP is talking about getting a DEGREE in act sci, not about becoming an actuary. I guess in that sense Act Sci would be viewed as challenging? I don't think it'll be too difficult spinning how one's act sci degree (dealing with risks/probability) is related to some of the aspects of trading...
I have an undergrad degree in act sci/stat/econ. I didn't realize till late in school that I wanted to get into trading. On about the 15 interviews I had in chicago at the various prop shops the first question I was asked why am I not doing insurance. The SOA exams are very difficult, harder than CFA, FRM etc..So when ppl see you passed a few exams and now doing trading they think you cannot continue passing exams..
Stick with stat, math and finance and your set.
Finance and Stat...I was about to go as a Finance and Act Sci into OCR, but you'd be surprised how many brokers and traders dont know what it is...the point of the interview is to sell yourself, not spend 15-20 min explaining how the major is more quant.
At my b-school we are offered stat as a major...the only difference between stat and act sci is that for stat you dont have to take calc I & II or linear algebra..everything else is the same..
Besides, stat is clearly a more natural transition into trading when you're analyzing data as opposed to math...at least my math courses were more physics focused
any former actuaries/actuarial science students? (Originally Posted: 07/03/2007)
Post here how you were able to make the transition to working as an analyst/associate at an IB.
by transferring to another school + program ... math grads do make it into finance ... but won't be handed to you like it is to guys at targets in target programs (especially true for ibd positions). build connections through co-op/friends at other schools/profs/alumni/the career center and you stand a good shot! (my experience with this is canada-centric)
Beyond just networking with friends and going through recruiters, I think one of the more important things to keep in mind as you try to break into IBD/finance from other fields is starting small. If you target boutiques or smaller banks in your job search, they tend to be more willing to take a chance on people from other fields and career changers.
My friend who did this did pretty much this exact path - started out as an actuary, switched in by networking, talking to friends at banks, and ended up going to a boutique. Then he lateraled into a BB and is working at one of the top groups on the street now.
thats exactly what i am doing and i have had success with it...
although, long term I want to make associate at the boutique.
hardest part: fit. technicals are easy to master, fit is a bitch.
Actuarial Science to IBanking (Originally Posted: 11/17/2012)
Hi. I'm thinking of actuarial science as a backup if ibanking recruitment from my school doesn't work out. Has anybody heard of people going from actuary to ibanker and being successful at it? Provided that I have the technical knowledge to succeed on the job and can nail the interviews, what barriers could prevent me from going to actuarial work to ibanking?
worst backup plan ever. better off doing f500 finance and getting experience in a particular industry. imagine having to take all those exams and doing boring work for insurance companies, or even worse working at an insurance company. your best bet would be working at an insurance focused FIG group if you were going to lateral. imagine working at FBR's FIG group.
get actual finance experience at a f500 in healthcare, technology, power, energy, consumer, industrials, etc. Your chances of lateraling into banking are much higher, and the work you will be doing would be somewhat more interesting. Needless to say you, will also be getting industry specific experience, which industry groups at investment banks (especially MM) love.
Seconded. Stick to CF is you can't land IB.
Would I have to go in as an entry-level analyst, even with a few years of f500 finance experience?
I wouldn't try to lateral into banking if i was more than 25 years old. cant stand the thought of having to work with a bunch of recent grad dick wads (like myself). if you have more than 4 years of experience at a f500 if would be a better idea just to do an MBA or better yet transfer to a corporate development M&A team within the same company (or even a different f500) after a few years and work there for a couple more years and then do an MBA (have your company pay for it). it would set you up very well for post-mba associate or even PE or VC and you probably won't ever have to work the hours of the analysts.
I would lateral anywhere from 6 months to 2 years into banking from CF at a f500. Anything more than 2 years I'm pulling out my gmat prep book and will start writing my essays for MBA apps.
And yes, most people who lateral into banking start as a 1st year unless they have legit experience in IB/capital markets prior to that, in which case you might be promoted to a 2nd year a lot faster (as early as a few months). but it is safe to assume that you will come in as a 1st year analyst. It also really depends on the firm.
It takes forever to pass the exams, by the time you are done you will be too old and/or have too narrow work experience
Actuarial Science Degrees and Actuaries are highly respected. Those who say they are not, clearly have not done enough research on the field to make that assessment. It should also be pointed out that there is a Corporate Finance/Enterprise Risk Management Track as well as a Quantitative/Investment Track for those seeking their FSA designation. So, the idea that becoming an Actuary means you are limited to the insurance industry is outdated and ignorant.
Hey WSO! Actuarial Science Major Here! (Originally Posted: 07/09/2014)
Hey WSO!
I made my account a while ago, but just recently started browsing the website, and I gotta say, I'm hooked! I'm currently going into my sophomore year, majoring in Actuarial Science at the University of Waterloo, but I want to transfer to Western University's Ivey Business Program for next year.
The dream is to go in to IB, and (hopefully) create a startup after a few years of that. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
What do you want to know?
Make sure that you position yourself into some strong extra curricular activities. Ivey puts just as much weight on them as your academics (50/50).
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