GMAT needed for top MBA program?

Team WSO,

I have a fairly common question, but given my circumstances I was hoping to receive some personal advice... So my question- what gmat score do I need to be competitive at a Booth/Kellogg/Sloan/Columbia? I am going to go ahead and take myself out of contention of H/S/W just based off my general lack of pedigree.

Background info:
1) 3.85 GPA from non-target state school
2) 3-4 years WE in audit practice of Big Four firm
3) MAcc degree and CPA
4) 27ish years old at time of application

Other info:
I have decent softs from my undergrad time (president of student organization, general involvement in some others); and I am in the process of taking on additional leadership/firm development roles at my current firm. Also, I am a white male.

I pose this question because I am curious how my being a white male and having average to below-average work experience will affect the GMAT score I need in order to be competitive. I realize it will skew it upwards but I'm curious by how much? I can see the GMAT/GPA ranges at the given schools but those are obviously inclusive of URMs and other special cases.

So what score would it take to be competitive- 700? 720? 750?

Any input- serious or otherwise- is appreciated.

Cheers

 

Some schools have hard and fast rules, though they won't get published.

Mean and median numbers aren't going to help answer your question about the minimum GMAT you'll need to be have a shot.

What you need to look at are the ranges - schools will usually either publish a middle 50% or a middle 80%. That should tell you what the 25th or 10th percentile scores are in the student body... At that point you're getting pretty close to the school's cut-off point, based on results.

Given that you probably don't want to cut it too close (ie. you want to at least beat the 25th percentile, rather than just the 10th), and your GPA is comfortably above-average compared to most enrolled students, it sounds like you should be clearing a 700. Trust me the MBA business schools ">m7 have boatloads of white males in the 700-720 range. Yes, a 700 is not a 'strong' score, and yes, you will get a smidgin' more love if you have a 740 vs a 710, but once you have a 7-handle, the overall package is what really makes the difference. That said, get the highest score you can, of course.

The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
 
Best Response

I disagree with @"CorpFinanceGuy"

I just recently went through the application process and applied to a number of those schools.

I think you need to be 720+ and probably should aim for 740+ to have a good shot. You are a white male working at a big 4 in audit. I'm not putting down your career---just saying there are a lot of you.

IMO you need to knock the GMAT out of the park and add a very cool extra-curricular/leadership story to have a shot at one of those programs.

I think 700+ would put you in range for Ross/Fuqua/Darden/Yale SOM/Cornell Johnson---and no guarantees there either.

I know this isn't what you want to hear but this forum drastically over-sells the "just get over 700 and your good" the fact of the matter is each school on your list has an average closer to 720. You need to be above average on the GMAT to make up for being white and in accounting.

Good luck! Feel free to PM if you want any school specific anecdotes.

 

I agree with CornTrader above. I would even go as far to say that you will need 730+ if you're a white/asian male with banking/PE experience. People coming from that background generally score higher and you can't give schools a reason to not consider you when comped to your peers. If you're coming from Big 4, yes you will need to be a bit more exceptional on the GMAT for a top 7 MBA.

 

IDK I feel like people reading these forums too much become over-sensitive towards stats, especially regarding GMAT. Average GMAT at HSW is high 710's or mid 720's. I don't want my post above to be taken as out of context, because it was meant to say that a 700+ would get you considered. By no means did I mean that you'd be accepted automatically.

If you want a high percentage shot of getting into those schools, obviously a 730+ GMAT helps. Worst case though, get a 700ish and you'll probably squeeze into one of the ones you mentioned - assuming you get your EC shit together.

Like @CornTrader said though, it would be much easier for you to apply for the schools he mentioned. You'd have a much higher chance.

 

your gpa is above average. that is a plus for you relative to other similar applicants. i do agree with the previous posts regarding a high GMAT. from the research i have done over the past few years (also know some big 4 ppl who got into top schools), i would be surprised if you got admitted to the schools you listed with a 700-720 GMAT. if you have something unique going for you (i.e. extracurricular involvement, started a non-profit, first generation college student, recommendation from a powerful alum, etc.) that could help to put you over the top at those schools. excluding those unique extras, you would need to be in the 730+ range. most white big 4 dudes with your stats end up at schools in the 10-15 range. think ucla, nyu, cornell, michigan, UVA, Duke, etc (still, none of these are given). keep in mind, depending on your goals, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to those programs.

 

I would guess that you need around 720-740 to give yourself the best chance. As the other posters have mentioned, there are a lot of white males that have those scores especially with your background so I think you will need to at least be in that range to give yourself the best chance. I had a perfect GPA from a school that is a step below a target level school and I don't think that factored into my admittance to one of the top programs at all. No one throughout the process seemed to care about my GPA at all, they were only concerned about my GPA and work experience. I think the schools are extremely concerned about demographics and unfortunately you are in one of the larger buckets applying and will need a top score to apply.

 

Similar background to OP and at a Top 5 MBA program now, and I'd say to be competitive at any top 10 program, you'll have to be in the top quartile of its class on the GMAT. For MBA business schools ">M7, that means around a 750. I'd also say that showing a history of outstanding performance will also be essential - i.e. early promotions and epic performance ratings. Simply putting in your time isn't enough coming from Big 4 Audit.

That said, I met a sizable number of Big 4 auditors at our school's most recent admit weekend, so don't get me wrong. It's very competitive, but also very doable. Good luck.

"Just go to the prom and get your promotion. That's the way the business world works. Come on, Keith!" - The Boss
 

I appreciate all the responses. And this pretty much affirmed what I was thinking: coming from a saturated background I will have to be at the upper end of the GMAT range to be competitive at these top schools. I am still on the fence on whether I need to aim for one of these schools or if a strong regional school in my city would suffice. Thanks again for all the responses!

 

I would say that if anything, WSO tends to be way too stats oriented (as in, need to get a 740+) versus was too easy on stats (700 will suffice). Same goes for GPA, school attended, and work experience. WSO tends to be too tough on profiles compared to the results I’ve seen from people.

That being said, White, male, Big 4 auditors aren’t exactly McKinsey consultants when it comes to MBA admissions. However, it’s not because they’re saturated in the applicant pool (they’re not, very few Big 4 Auditors apply to top b-schools), but because it’s just not seen as a great profile. I believe Sandy from P&Q says that Adcoms basically don’t see auditors as adventurous enough. I don’t really understand what that means, but I think it mostly has to do with them questioning whjy you didn’t make a job transition prior to b-school.

For example, if you say your goal is strategy consulting after b-school and you’ve been an auditor for four years, I would wonder why you didn’t transition into an advisory role of some sort that is more of a value-add role than audit. You might not be doing high-level strategy work, but at least finance transformations or compliance redesigns are consulting work. Same goes for banking – why wouldn’t you get into TAS or similar prior to school? Don’t want to make you nervous, I think these are just good things to think about and to possibly address in your essays. Big 4 white males absolutely get into top-10 schools, and the GPA will not hurt. My opinion is that as long as you’re near the average GMAT (~710-730), your story and your extras will be far more important.

Source: I’m a former Big 4 Auditor turned consultant that is matriculating to Top-10 next year.

 
Source: I’m a former Big 4 Auditor turned consultant that is matriculating to Top-10 next year.
this is precisely why I like reading your stuff -- although you are a statistical survey of 1, you have lived to tell the tale.

May I add here that everyone is all focused on overall numbers? Let me say that quant/verbal split is really the big deal here. They publish overall numbers, but the reality is that the breakdown --- in raw numbers, less percentiles, since they are getting all skewed these days. Reason I say this? I worked with a candidate who had a 760, yes, a wonderful score, but his verbal was 99%. This guy was incredibly smart, but his quant score was in the mid-40s. He made up for it by taking a hard stats class and getting something like an A+, and then going on to TA the class, but remember, not all 760s are alike.

But back to overall numbers, be careful of statistical assumptions. Harvard and Stanford can afford to take students with lower scores because they aren't worried about that number to stay at the top of the rankings. (I know the OP isn't considering those schools) Any school fighting to elbow into the top 10. or to stay there, is more concerned. (This was told to me more than one adcom at borderline schools.)

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

I agree with the folks suggesting a higher GMAT. I'm a white male, with similar level quality of work experience as you, and just went through the cycle and got into a MBA business schools ">M7. One important thing to keep in mind when you looks at the 80% ranges and such, the bottom 25% or so of GMAT's is almost all URM/Women/non-traditional candidates. White male with average work experience you really need above average GMAT. I'd say 720 minimum, but shoot for 740-750. Your GPA is great, but its from a non-target, so it will be discounted a bit.

Remember, you're not competing against the average, you're competing against people with similar demographics as you.

 

GMAT scores are well within the range of top MBA schools. With those scores he's obviously focused/worried about the wrong thing and is getting dinged because of something besides the GMAT score.

I hope he/they are applying to more than just HBS (which is often just a crap shoot when it comes to admissions). Try Stanford/Wharton which are academically better business schools in my opinion.

With a 3.5 and a 710 GMAT youre friend has a chance at any school provided he come up with a good story and know how to sell himself.

Keep in mind, it also doesnt matter if you've come from a "solid" company if your in positions where you can't show any leadership.

 

It probably is the essays in the application that are screwing them up. The AWAs are not hard. One of the essays is graded by a computer. Spell check, grammar check, and follow the essay formula and you've got a 6. With friend A, the lower 4.5 score might indicate that his essay isn't polished enough. This time, suggest that he gets it proofread and really focus on it. Build a story.

Friend B should take a GMAT class. His AWA is low, but extra help on that section should improve it. Also, I would think his verbal section is dragging his score down. If friend B can sharpen out his/her writing skills, they would have a higher GMAT score, a higher AWA and would have the tools needed to write a better essay for the application.

 

AWA scores are irrelevant for US citizens assuming you have demonstrated your analytical writing ability in your essays. AWA scores are important for international students along with TOEFL scores.

Your buddy B does not need a prep class and should be satisfied with his 710 assuming his split is fairly even. If he is 95% quant and 60% verbal then he would be flagged (in combination with is weak AWA) as a weak English communicator.

 

yeah, would not put it on your resume...

if you've killed every math related subject you've taken I wouldnt worry too much, but i would argue there is no reason you can't get in the mid 700s with a 97% verbal score. If you can keep your verbal in the high 90s% and just get 85% for math I think that will bump you to ~750...and if you are decent with numbers a mid 80th % score does not take that much studying.

I think it would be best just to suck it up for a few weeks this summer, get a 730-750 with a better math score and then you won't have to worry.

Whether you can get into a top 10 will depend on way more than your GMAT - ie what you do over the next few years and how successful you are...and how well you craft your "story" in your essays.

Good Luck, Patrick

 

Thanks for the reply. Regarding crafting my "story," I had some trouble with this on the 2+2 app... frankly, I'm a white male from a decent middle class background. There's nothing really interesting there. I work my ass off, I'm smart, but so are a million other guys. I've had no personal tragedy or real challenge to say I've overcome. I've done my internships and done well (very, very well, actually), I get good recommendations and am given more responsibility than normal interns. But again, so are a ton of other guys, who have better "brand name" schools as well.

How do people overcome this? (it sounds funny saying "how do I overcome being white and relatively privileged?"). I know people do it, so what are they saying on their apps that so impresses the adcom?

 

i dont have much experience..but i'd be worried that such a bad math score is going to raise a red flag when you are supposed to be good at math (i.e. make people question the strength/difficulty of your program) I have had a lot of people tell me that the GMAT is a good equilizer because they dont really know how to compare a 3.4 at harvard to a 3.8 at north eastern, etc.

if you really are good at math improving your score shouldnt be hard. my bet would be practice a lot and watch your time and check your work.

 

I would get several more years of work experience before worrying about b-school/GMAT but you probably already knew that.

I had a similar split, though higher verbal and slightly higher math. It is kind of strange that you have done so well in math classes but contrary to breakininnew, most would tell you that your performance in these classes serves to bolster the impression of your GMAT. Adcom's don't care if you can do GMAT math, they care if you can handle the math in an MBA program...and the GMAT is their best guage of that. If however, you can show that you have handled difficult math in another capacity, then you should be ok. I trade risk arbitrage so that was my "alternative" transcript of sorts.

Since you have a few years ahead of you, I might study up, take some practice tests, and retake. I only took the GMAT once but I think I did better at 26 than I would have in college, so don't think that youll automatically degrade.

 

I know a guy who got into one of those with a 680 GMAT. I guess his essays were just really really good. Because everything else was not even worse than his GMAT.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 
CreditAnalyst85:

So fuking what? So if we confirm that many people we know got in with < 700 are you going to be content with a lower score you'd otherwise not be ok with? Just study and get a great score and stop wasting time figuring out where to draw the line of mediocrity.

Church

 
PanAfricanBanker:

I am not incentivising mediocrity, I am merely curious as to how this is possible.

It happens whether we talk about it or not.

Clearly there is something amazing or extremely unique about the candidate. For example, if a pro athlete applied, he might be let in with lower scores because he could donate a LOT to the school and has connections that Harvard would want in it's alumni pool. Or perhaps someone has such a story of adversity that scoring 600 given their circumstances is a testament to the amazing things they could do given even mediocre opportunities. Generally speaking, the same thoughts you had crossed my mind before I went to business school. Then I realized the simple fact that I'm trying to figure it all out shows Imm not one of those people. Those people are most likely working their ass off. So it's waste of time.

Unless you're trying to do research to script a feel good movie about overcoming.... Then I can see why you want to know those stories.

 

The only non-victim people who I know who made it with a low score did so because they took only one GMAT right before the R2 or R3 deadline and explained that they couldn't devote more time to the GMAT because the decision to apply was a last second decision. The other aspects of their applications were solid.

 
wannabeaballer:

The only non-victim people who I know who made it with a low score did so because they took only one GMAT right before the R2 or R3 deadline and explained that they couldn't devote more time to the GMAT because the decision to apply was a last second decision. The other aspects of their applications were solid.

Not sure what "non-victim" means but I'd like to know what schools accepted people that didnt have time to get a good GMAT and winged applying at the last minute. Even if the rest was solid, what does it say about someone that openly admits they decided last minute and felt confident giving subpar scores....

 

When you say professional athlete what do you mean? NBA/NFL/MLB or underwater basket weaving? If you were in a major sport that would significantly help your application. I'm not criticizing "lesser" sports - I was a collegiate and pro cyclist, but those don't move the needle like football or basketball.

 

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