Going to Medical School at 30?
I was a trader at a famous boutique based in NYC - worked there for 6 years. I came to my desk this morning (literally 2hrs ago, its 9am here in NYC) to find an envelope telling me that my time is up. There is no severance package. Admittedly, our group underperformed last 2 years so I had seen this news coming, was only a matter of time - ive been able to keep relatively calm today after the news because of that.
Now, last 6 years my all-in annual comp ranged from $80k to $170k. I did not splurge or pop bottles with models so I have about $70k saved up, after undergrad loans completely paid off ($100k).
Now, a lot of you will prob tell me to go to business school then hit up private equity. But frankly, after having experienced the lack of job security in high finance first hand, I'm gonna say "pass" on that one.
I've been thinking -- should I apply to med school? Is 28 too late? After 4 years med school + 4 years residency, I won't be financially secure until 36, and at that time I'll have $200k in loans to pay off. But at least when I'm 60 i'll still have a comfortable job. What would you all do?
Is It Too Late To Go to Med School?
Our users generally feel that it is not too late for you to go to Med school - but they caution you to really know what you are getting yourself into. Many users cautioned the OP against going to Med School just for assumed financial security when you are older.
It's not too late at all, some medical schools accept people well into their 30's even. But make sure you have a genuine answer to "Why medicine?", because that is the (obvious) recurring theme in interviews and primary/secondary essays. Also, you might know this, but you are going to need at least some sort of patient contact volunteering, LORs, non-clinical volunteering, doctor shadowing, and having done bio research always helps. They want you to do all this to make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. A great GPA can usually let you get away with less healthcare EC's, and you have one so its going to come down to getting a 30 MCAT minimum (I would say for MD programs). Your finance background will definitely help you stand out a ton though.Maybe talk to some doctors. Ask them if they would do it all over again. A lot of them aren't as happy and comfortable as it may seem, especially with the whole ACA thing. If it has to be healthcare, I would do dentistry to be honest.
No insight to offer other than that going to med school (an 8 year commitment) solely because it will offer you job security in your 'golden years' sounds very unwise. You should go to med school because you want to work in medicine or medical research, or at least work there in the near future. Nothing else.
Should I Change Careers or Go to Med School?
Some users felt that it would be wise for the OP to consider different options in the financial services rather than going into medicine if you do not truly have a passionate for medical services.
I know you're turned off on high finance... but what about consulting or something in industry (like corporate strategy/development/management in a healthcare or bio tech sector)? That would require b-school (as I think going from trading --> industry/consulting to be a huge uphill climb) and it would also be $200K, but this would be something you do in 2-3 yrs as opposed to 8 yrs.Round 2s for b-school are coming up so my guess is you'll have to wait until the next year to apply for b-school (unless you are VERY efficient) or want to try your hand at Round 3. You could use the time to study for your mcat, but also clear the GMAT, then so you'll have two options to consider down the line.
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Well first off - sorry to hear about your job, but kudos on being prudent and saving up a lot of money.
I think if this is something that takes 8 years to complete, you damn well better make sure you are interested and committed to what you're doing. With med school I don't think it's just a matter of putting in the time and setting yourself up for a decent living, you have to have some personal drive outside of that. Especially when you're doing it as an older candidate and you're in school with people that are younger. It could be at times demoralizing...
I know you're turned off on high finance... but what about consulting or something in industry (like corporate strategy/development/management in a healthcare or bio tech sector)? That would require b-school (as I think going from trading --> industry/consulting to be a huge uphill climb) and it would also be $200K, but this would be something you do in 2-3 yrs as opposed to 8 yrs.
Round 2s for b-school are coming up so my guess is you'll have to wait until the next year to apply for b-school (unless you are VERY efficient) or want to try your hand at Round 3. You could use the time to study for your mcat, but also clear the GMAT, then so you'll have two options to consider down the line.
No insight to offer other than that going to med school (an 8 year commitment) solely because it will offer you job security in your 'golden years' sounds very unwise. You should go to med school because you want to work in medicine or medical research, or at least work there in the near future. Nothing else.
Going to med school to be a DR has about as much job security as finance. You think I am crazy? The ACA is forcing compensation for many medical procedures down to such a low level that things doctors did even 2 years ago are now being done by RNs. Medicine is a race to the bottom.
Wow. Well said.
If you're interested in medicine have you ever considered completing the requirements for pharmacy school? It'll probably only take 2 years to complete assuming your biology degree took care of the majority of the prereqs. I live close to one of the largest pharmacy schools in the US and have a few friends that graduated from the program and are in various roles due to the doctorate degree. A retail pharmicist at a drug store starts out around 120k/year but there are other options beyond that. One buddy completed a couple years as a retail at Walgreens then was asked to move to a corporate role at the Walgreens headquarters in Chicago. He said his salary is ~150k and he is completing a part time MBA while working. He is planning on staying there for a while so they're paying for his school.
To be a pharmacist you have to go to the same amount of post grad school as doctors do. They changed the regulations.
I assume that was extremely recent that they changed the regs because I know these guys only went for 2 or 3 years more of school than I did and we're all only 27.
Sorry about the job.
Starting med school at 28 isn't too big of a deal - in fact, my sister did exactly that. After a a few years abroad, a few years at non-profits, she decided she wanted to go. She actually had to take undergrad classes as she was an English major, but got accepted into a great med school and is now looking at top residencies all over the country.
If you aren't passionate about finance, don't stick it out. You might have to take on some debt, but if you really want to practice medicine go for it.
As a heads-up consider your specialty carefully: For instance, surgeons have a longevity of 7-10 years, so if you wait too much longer you may be passed up for younger candidates... although that is certainly not a hard and fast rule.
Good luck
If you just want a secure job, become an accountant. A friend who made partner was making seven digits within ten years of starting, it's rock solid stable. If you actually LIKE medicine and actually want to be a doctor then do it. Medicine takes people of all ages and walks of life.
Also, don't be so sure that a recruiter won't take you. Go talk to them. You have the skill set and had a rough couple of years, so what. Some other company may give you a shot. At least this way you make a few bucks before going to med school.
Seven digits in accounting in early 30s? Is this a Big 4 firm?
EDIT - career path of said individual: finance experience -> MaCC -> big4 audit -> MM Consulting -> big4 consulting -> base+bonus>$1MM by eleventh year (is in late 30's). Another family friend is big4 audit partner and yes, he's a millionaire and has a ton of free time at this point, all before the age of 40.
I tell myself I want an MBA -> banking/consulting but I keep hearing senior finance people tell me "DON'T GO INTO FINANCE" the way so many lawyers used to tell me not to do law. Now, I look at law as a profession and it's fucked. I'm wondering if I should read the writing on the wall and accept that era of very fast money in finance is gone for good. Christ, every decent entry level job has hundreds or even thousands of applicants...employers are going to drive the salaries down given the huge supply of labor. I seems just a matter of time.
Basically, this.
Also someone told you that 28 is old. Who? Would you rather do it now, or when you're 40 and probably have more family commitments?
you haven't mentioned your familiarity with medicine professions, so I'm gonna advise that you do some shadowing first. Lots of med school applicants and students interested in medicine ask doctors for shadowing, so it shouldn't be hard to find a doctor who'd be willing to let you follow him/her around the office for a day or two. Even a day or two of shadowing can provide lots of insights.
It's also important to think about why exactly you want to go into medicine. The majority of med school probably go into practicing, but you can stay in academia or even go for MD/PhD routes, though this path is longer and more competitive.
I once pursued medicine as well, a long time ago. I gave up because of:
1) Huge school debt that takes a lot longer to pay off 2) Opportunities decreasing and good fields getting more competitive to get into 3) Salary is not what it used to be, compared to a few decades ago 4) Hours and physical labor still very demanding, though this is field-specific
Of course, being a doctor is still a lot more stable and has the potential to earn a lot in the long term, comparatively. But i've learned that first and foremost, you must love medicine and love dealing with patients, before thinking about money, job stability, etc.
I've seen some MDs discussing other career pathways in these forums, hopefully someone with real experience can chime in.
As a fellow trader, I feel bad for you. Times have been tough.
Regarding your plan on going back to school; a couple of friends from school went to med.school in Poland and did rotational programs and residency in the US (agreements with UPenn, UCLA, Case Western, etc.) Shouldn't cost a fortune, and you'll be done in the same amount of years.
Edit: Jagiellonian University was the name of the school.
Some of my friends also did that. It's popular for people from the western world to come to med schools in Poland because the tuition is really low. Jagiellonian Uni has the best med school in Poland, Medical University of Warsaw is a close second. It's a 5 year commitment and classes are all in English, so no need to be fluent in Polish.
Become a dentist (actually, an oral surgeon.) Those bastards make bank.
Also, I hear it's the best path to being a Hollywood producer...
Amazing lifestyle too. They usually have enough free time to run other businesses on the side.
Dermatology. Know a guy who worked for a MF until about the same age and then went into medicine and loves it infinitely more.
Doesn't Derm require 4+3/4 like most other Dr. professions? Pay per hours are definitely better though.
That's like saying "just get a job at KKR."
Exactly. You don't just graduate medical school and pick your specialty. Some are HIGHLY competitive, where your board exam scores, transcript, prior rotations, and research are all considered.
Sorry about that.
It's not too late at all, some medical schools accept people well into their 30's even. But make sure you have a genuine answer to "Why medicine?", because that is the (obvious) recurring theme in interviews and primary/secondary essays. Also, you might know this, but you are going to need at least some sort of patient contact volunteering, LORs, non-clinical volunteering, doctor shadowing, and having done bio research always helps. They want you to do all this to make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. A great GPA can usually let you get away with less healthcare EC's, and you have one so its going to come down to getting a 30 MCAT minimum (I would say for MD programs). Your finance background will definitely help you stand out a ton though.
Maybe talk to some doctors. Ask them if they would do it all over again. A lot of them aren't as happy and comfortable as it may seem, especially with the whole ACA thing. If it has to be healthcare, I would do dentistry to be honest.
Why not apply for an MBA somewhere and try to change careers?
I agree with this idea. Given your background the transition to another area of finance would be much easier than changing gears into medicine. There must have been something to drew you into trading to begin with so if you still have that financial passion, you should explore it. If you're thinking about giving up on the finance world because of the "lack of job security" to me you need to take a little time off and figure out if you only feel this way because it's fresh and you're frustrated. I was laid off before and I can say it was one of the most angering experiences of my life and I definitely needed a few days to settle down and come up with a game plan.
Worth considering, even with physician pay decreasing...if you don't live in the North East or some places on the West Coast...you can live like a pharaoh with amazing work/life balance.
ER docs pull in $250k-300k, imagine living like that in Chicago or Texas?
With an Ivy League degree and 6 years of experience at an elite boutique means you will definitely get hired on to a good position at a good firm. If that's your issue then don't worry at all about it.
My best friend went back to medical school at the age of 28 after getting laid off from his job in the financial services sector. He's starting his rotations next month. He's a rare breed--he's both passionate about the field and is greedy. haha. So his performance has been phenomenal in medical school. By the time we are elderly I wouldn't be surprised at all if life expectancy in the Western world had risen to something like 88. I personally don't plan on retiring ever (I love my career), so getting started again at 36 doesn't seem prohibitive. You'll probably have 35-40 good years in you. So long as you're passionate about the field--you were a biology major so it should give you some pretty decent background about what to expect.
Because most people have dumb ideas or thoughts.
My response to your question - should I apply to med school - depends on what your ultimate career objective is.
If you truly have a passion for medicine, and you are absolutely sure that this is what you want to do for a living, then I say go for it. However, if you are solely interested in pursuing medicine in order to have a high-paying (relatively) job with good (relatively) job security, you should think twice before taking the plunge.
I remember back in the dark ages (a.k.a. my freshman year of college) when I briefly considered the premed track. A professor told me (it was a group of people, not just "me") that the most successful and happiest doctors are ones who see medicine as their "calling" in life, as opposed to just a "career." That is, these people cannot imagine doing anything else in life and would still choose to become doctors even without the money and prestige.
On the other hand, the doctors who pursue medicine as a "career" (e.g. they were motivated primarily by money and prestige) tended to make the worst doctors and were usually unhappy and unsatisfied with their lives.
For all I know, this could be total BS, but I think this professor had a legitimate point. Before going further, you should ask yourself, "Is medicine my calling in life or simply just a career?"
Really sucks about the job.
I think you should really think about becoming a Dr. especially with all the changes in healthcare taking place.. As @"nyboarder" said, Dentist have the life from what I can tell.
Good luck!
Wow typical analyst in investment banking giving career advice - changes in healthcare are taking place, so definitely get into it! durrrrrrrrrrrrr
I'm cautioning against it.
A good friend of mine started med school at age 28. Yes, it's a later start, but that's ok. If it's a dream, go after it.
....if it's not a dream, do NOT. Someone I live went to med school and hated medicine, now they do research. They could have just gotten a doctorate and saved themselves the better part of a decade. Medicine has enough people there just to collect a paycheck, don't add to the problem. It's a huge amount of work with miserable hours, miserable egos, and huge amounts of BS....if a stable paycheck is the primary motivator, it's not for you. If you simply want to make a decent income with some stability, and went to an ivy league school, you could probably get a consulting job.
The first question you really need to ask is. What do I want to do with my life.
Hell you could always move in with your parents and flip houses. Nothing wrong with that, except your dating life would prob suck for a while.
Go to dental school. You will finish up by 32 or 33. My cousin is a dentist and only works 9-5 three days a week and pulls in 150 a year.
If you specialize in root canals or something... you will become a millionaire within 5 years of opening your own practice. Guaranteed.
It's a trade. Like being a barber, you just churn and burn and make money. My uncle is a dentist, he's not even good - he's actually a butcher - the guy hires hot broads as assistants and takes off whenever he wants...
average age of entering first year med school students is 25. there are over 5 people in my class that are older than 30, and my class has less than 100 people.
The lady friend went to H/Y/P undergrad and trained at a top hospital. If you have that kind of talent, Id highly advise you to seek life elsewhere after watching her claw her way the past few years. After med school, you will likely get paid in the neighborhood of 40-50k during residency and fellowship, if you so choose to complete a fellowship.
Post fellowship jobs are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain, even in major markets, (including NYC), and the great paying ones are in remote areas like upstate Maine or Iowa or something, but require you to take excessive call (ie no work life balance). If you decide to pursue research vs clinical, then you may have to 1. return for a masters degree and/or 2. find/network your way into the good graces of an established MD in your respective field who can lend credibility/drive revenue/gain publications. FYI research roles pay signficantly less than clinical, though do offer better worklife balance. On top of easily working 80-100 hrs for the aforementioned 45k/yr, you will also likely work 12 hr moonlighting shifts (overnight) to supplement your income.
This has been my experience with the medical field from her experiences, as well as discussions with her colleagues, and their spouses. Not saying it applies to all, but I think I have a somewhat decent idea of how it works at this point.
Condolences. That sucks. My first question: have you been toying around with med school in your head for the past few years? Or is this a "I just got laid off. Holy shit. What am I going to do with my life?" kind of reaction? If it's the former, maybe losing your job is exactly the push you need to take the MCATs and apply. But if you've never given med school a thought until now, maybe this isn't such a great idea.
Regardless, I'd take a few days to breathe and relax. You've earned it, and getting fired blows.
@peinvestor2012 no idea
@holla_back He's obviously pretty intelligent and driven though from what he told us.
@DBCooper well I didn't go to medical school so I don't know, that may be the case
FWIW, I have a really good friend starting residency now, and she said if she had to do it all over again she would have either done nursing to nurse practitioner, pharmacy school, or physicians assistant.
None of these will have the comp a doctor will have, but the biggest issue she mentioned to me was the ability to transfer specialties. For example, if you do your residency or med school program in something like pediatrics, and then want to move to labor/deliver or something, it is impossible.
Given your background in biology, and since medical school was the first thing that you mentioned, it seems you have this in the back of your mind. It will be a very long and very hard process, and current policies would make me hesitant to go the doctor route.
I would also second bschool to biotech consulting.
Sorry to hear the news -- that sucks.
That being said, you JUST got this news this morning. You need to take some time off and process and be upset at the world.
Then you can figure out what you want to do with your life. Going to med school at 28 is not the end of the world, but it's not the beginning of it either. Your entire post stated zero reasons for wanting to be a doctor except that you couldn't get fired again. That's like saying you're going to be marry somebody you hate so that somebody you actually care about can never break your heart again.
Med school is tough. That's not to say that if it's really a dream, that you can't pursue it. You can -- but you will sacrifice a lot of your 30s (the time most people want to start a family / settle down) to get there. So if the only reason you want it is job security, that's just silly.
Maybe you were a shitty trader and maybe you're sick of that job. So fair enough, don't go be a trader again. But there are a lot of options for somebody with an Ivy degree and a 3.9 gpa...med school is definitely one of them, but it's not the only one.
Take some time off, relax, and then figure it out when you''re a little calmer. Best of luck.
I'm literally going over my client's financials right now (he's a real estate developer on the side)--he's a regular dentist--went to a state dental school and is 39 this year. In 2010 he made $69,000; in 2011 he made $149,000; in 2012 he made $211,000. He told me his earnings are 100% what he puts into it--the more hours he's willing to work the more he earns. I think he might work 45-50 hours/week, tops. He upped his hours because he bought a nice New House. He's also my dentist--the guy spent like 2 minutes with me as the hygienist did literally everything.
Amazing career path.
Sounds like you're considering med school because you feel you have no other options. I don't think that is a good enough reason to go to med school, given it's an extremely rough path (I was on it before). But if you really want to I don't think 28 is too late. Also, with 6 years front office markets experience, I think you can definitely get another decent job in finance in relatively short order if you put in some effort...maybe not 170k starting out right away, but you can work back to that once you're on your feet again.
I think it's doable. Two of my close friends are older med students (late 20s). Only complaints are that it takes some time to get used to studying again. However though they say it's hard to get in, once you are in, you should finish. There's a lot of remediation if you do poorly on a certain block. It's also a very structured learning environment so as long as you put in the time and have discipline, you should make it.
Choice of school may also make your transition easier. different schools condense the coursework differently, so for example duke med does coursework in 1 year vs 2, so that may be more overwhelming if you have been out of school for sometime.
Lifestyle wise during training, my roommate is a resident, and hours can be tough. Typically 12 hour shifts but u may have to stay later to finish paperwork. He typically gets one day off a week but the day changes. Also you switch to from day shifts to night shifts so that is tough too. depending on which residency you do, starts can be routinely at 6am in intern/residency. I ask when hours get better, I'm told some fellowships may be easier but also some can be as stressful as residency. Overall the residents still go out once a week at least it seems.
Like other people said. If u are interested in medicine. There's other good careers that don't require as much training. You could do clinical operations which is compensated pretty well and I think considered more stable than for example sales.
Also fuck pharmacy. Read into that one long and hard before considering it seriously. They don't control number of pharm schools like they do for med, so there's always talk of over supply. I think this is evidenced by how it can be hard to find jobs in major markets.
Will be a different story if their role in healthcare is expanded but for now I would not recommend. Just my perspective but retail pharmacy seems like a terrible job. Constantly get bitched at by people. There's many other ways to make 100k...
Here is my 2 cents. I have multiple family members in medicine (Surgeon, Cancer Research, pharmaceuticals), as well as connections with all of their friends as well. I was looking into going to medschool at age 32 myself, but decided against it given the current and anticipated future attitude toward MDs in this country. Here are a few points to consider.
General surgeon, world leader in one specific procedure. People come from overseas to see him. Makes one third today of what he made 10 years ago. Works his tail off. When he was doing trauma at the hospital (up until his mid 50s), he would work 48 hours straight sometimes depending on the flow of patients. Just think about all of those drunken car wrecks that you’ll have to sort thru on New Year’s eve. Worked most holidays. Got sued and aquited by some bum whose life he saved, but imagine the toll that takes on your friends, family, and kids when your name is on the front page of your local paper.
Expert in rare diseases, part of elite HMO (like VIP docs). Graduated from top school, worked at a university on tough cases, and learned a lot about special cases. Moved to a big city and became recognized as the go-to guy for immune system issues. His practice essentially only grants access to people who can afford to pay out of pocket for his services. Works reasonable hours and loves life. Head of cancer research at a large university. Never left college, gets paid well, lives in a huge house in one of the largest cities in the US. Loves his job, does a lot of cutting edge work, but I don’t know if I would enjoy it because progress would be hard to judge.
As an older medschool applicant, you face an uphill battle because you are missing out on the experience required to make the connections to get into the top medical jobs. You will also likely have a burdensome amount of debt, a reality that the 60 year olds I mentioned above never dealt with. If you have a lot of connections with docs and can get into a top med school, then it could be worth it, but for most it will not make financial sense. If you want to make a difference in medicine, consider going into healthcare consulting or working at a healthcare startup. There are many ways to contribute without the MD title, and the potential payoffs are much greater. If you are deadest on becoming a doctor, consider looking into the USPHS, or another government funded job that will pay your school bills and give you your first job.
Have you considered going to PA (Physicians Assistant) or NP (Nurse Practitioner) or even AA (Anesthesiology Asst) school? These are all 80-150K + jobs and only require 2 year masters. Although to get into PA you will need SOME healthcare experience which you could easily pick up even volunteering. For NP, I think you may need an RN first. AA school just requires that you have the prereqs that you probably have from your bio degree and no experience required. My old roommate went into AA program straight out of college, 2 years masters at Emory and making about 130K start. I have to say, my bf and everyone else i know who went to med school had a desire to do med school since they were young. Its not something you just do to do it, its too hard too long and i just dont think its the thing to do unless you have a strong drive towards medicine.
I was going to suggest these options as well. I know a number of people in each field, and they are all pretty satisfied and in high demand. Sometimes the hours suck though - like working a 12 hour night shift on Thanksgiving - so keep that in mind.
Senior nurse managers I know do really well ~300k/yr. You can check 990 forms to find out potential salaries of the top earning employees. You could shoot for an MHA, or MBA with a healthcare focus later down the road and try to work your way into supervisor/director/or other executive roles and make pretty good money.
Ohhh had to mention! If you do decide on med school! NYU just launched a 3 year program instead of 4!!! You save and year and about 50K!
http://school.med.nyu.edu/student-resources/medical-education/md-curric…
Given your background in science and your finance experience, maybe you should try going to ER in healthcare/biotech? Or, you could check out a company like Royalty Pharma in NYC. They securitize patents. It is a pretty interesting business.
Agree with the 28 being old thing. Look, the whole modern concept of what's old and what's not is based off of the standard K-12-college progression and then 20 year paygrade -> retirement of gov't jobs. They're meaningless metrics designed for simple accounting purposes. OLD is 95. OLD is when you can't buy life insurance for a decent price. OLD is when you've outlived the standard lifespan projections. OLD is when you've got body parts replaced because nature didn't build them to last as long as you've lived. OLD is when you just can't physically do the job.
Until then, it's really a matter of if you want to do something, minus mandatory age cutoffs (I think cops have to sign up before 35). How many people really hit their groove in life in their late 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond....a lot.
OP, take a week or so, get some R&R, and then start seriously looking at the future. You got canned because you weren't proactive enough about either getting better at your job OR jumping ship if you were in a shitty group. Why? Where was your mind this last two years? Answer that, and use that answer as the basis of your next move. You can go MBA, recruit back into trading, consulting, med school, military, start a business, travel, almost anything you want and on top of that you have $70K in the bank. Cover story: they shut my group down. Anyone not in trading will accept that.
You're actually in a really good spot and now is the time to figure out what you really want to do.
Maybe this was the exact kick in the ass you needed to self-reflect and try to figure out what you really want to do in life. It could turn out to be a big blessing in disguise
No, 28 is not old. I've heard of people starting med school at 40. The most important questions to ask yourself are: (1) do you like medicine and (2) will you be good at it? Be sure to pursue a career that capitalizes on your strengths. Find something that you are good at. Otherwise, you'll end up getting laid off again or hating to go to work every morning. Quality of life is important. If you stink at something or don't enjoy it you're setting yourself up for many future regrets!
Out of curiosity, what kind of trader where you? I'm interested in being a trader but I want to learn enough to be able to trade for myself in the future. Do you think you are skilled enough to trade for yourself?
You can try to trade for 2yrs consistently making 2-5% monthly and avoid a 18% draw down. I heard a lot of prop firms are willing to take you if you can pulloff those results.
You probably won't make it through if you have to ask this question.
Why do you say such a thing?
I plan to work for a prop firm for about 15 years or long enough to have been through all market cycles while learning from topnotch traders. Then move on to travel around the world while trading from my computer. Many pro traders have done this. Isn't that what trading is all about? Being an entrepreneur, freedom and stuff? I'm aware of the hard work it takes don't get me wrong.
Learn enough to do for yourself instead of being a puppet forever.
learn supply chain . be a consultant and make 200k
From Banking to Med School (Originally Posted: 08/29/2013)
Hey Guys,
I've had a few internships now headed into my senior year. Although I have no doubt if I continue working hard I can be successful in the banking/buy-side realm, I am just not satisfied with the work. I don't know if it's the fact I'm obviously doing lower level work (presentations, spreadsheets, models etc) or just losing interest.
However, over the past few summers I've noticed I really cannot stand being in the office after several weeks go by. I get out of shape, get bored, and generally not crazy excited about going in for 5 days and sitting in front of a computer for 12 hours. I've always loved health & wellness and the medical profession and was wondering if anyone has any advice on med school or other options?
I just don't find the satisfaction in finance. I do very well academically in it and am arguably in the top 3 in the entire undergrad finance dept (non target), but like I said it's just not my passion. Real passion lies in investing & medicine/health professions.
Any advice going forward into my senior year? Feel like I've devoted so much time into getting into IB already and it may be too late for a career switch.
Too late? People make changes like that when they're in their 30s
Tommy Too-toned --- any advice on how to proceed besides going to the career center?
I actually have a friend who did a similar thing. He worked in IBD for 2 years, then went down the PE route for 2 more years and then one new years eve he said that he didn't like what he was doing so he quit first thing in the new year and then went back to medical school. He should soon be done with his MD I think. Very smart guy, too.
You will have to do at least another year of undergrad to meet pre-med requirements (possibly more). Do you have an offer on hand in finance?
I don't understand how your "real passion lies in investing & medicine/health professions". You can't have both. I think you are also drastically underestimating what it takes to become a doctor.
dufftmt6 - Don't currently have an offer, but working on it and some things should hopefully line up it looks like at the moment. Also, I meant that I love investing, but maybe it could be more of a side thing for me and not necessarily career oriented. And I don't have to be an MD - was thinking of other options such as a physical therapist I definitely think I have what it takes to pursue it if I really wanted to, but there's a huge opportunity cost standing in my way -->earning great money in finance after graduating and enjoying myself here and there, or work my ass off to get into med school and go through the entire process of becoming a doctor..Probably giving up my entire 20s for that.
at least another year of undergrad probably sounds right to meet pre med requirements due to the science courses+lab I'd have to meet.
Just was curious and wanted to think about it.
I know a guy who did pre-med went into Finance for 10 years, worked for THE Raj Rajaratnam, then got out and became a doctor. He absolutely loves it. It is definitely not to late at all....
Becomming a doctor will require enormous amounts of work and the better part of a decade
People go to medical school at all ages. It is not unusual. I have doctors in my family who entered med school at the full range from 22 to almost 50.
If your passion is investing, go into equity research, Asset Management, sales and trading, or some other field of finance
OR stick it out in IBD for a year or so and then go to PE. If you've done the work, walking away without spending a year or so to get to the buyside is idiotic.
If this is an ego thing, GET OVER YOURSELF. "Low level work" in finance? As a resident and new doctor, you'll be doing plenty of 'low level' work. It takes time and experience to run things, and switching careers won't change that unless you open your own business....and then you'll work for everyone.
My own opinion: make some money in banking and then go do what you REALLY want. Nothing says FREEDOM like having a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank at the age of 25. Provided of course, you save the money you make.
That was awesome. You're definitely right on the better part of a decade to become a doctor - which is such a crazy amount of time I'd rather not be studying, but rather making a killing.
Yeah sometimes it's annoying and I admit the ego factor comes into play doing the work, but you're right - it exists everywhere. Just gotta suck it up and remember that my time will come when it's right
My ultimate plan was IB few years, kill it on the buy-side for a while, and then go wherever I please...Thanks for that! Encouraging to hear thoughts from others to help keep me on track.
That was awesome. You're definitely right on the better part of a decade to become a doctor - which is such a crazy amount of time I'd rather not be studying, but rather making a killing.
Yeah sometimes it's annoying and I admit the ego factor comes into play doing the work, but you're right - it exists everywhere. Just gotta suck it up and remember that my time will come when it's right
My ultimate plan was IB few years, kill it on the buy-side for a while, and then go wherever I please...Thanks for that! Encouraging to hear thoughts from others to help keep me on track.
One other thing: go work in a hospital or something to see if you actually like the work. I was premed until I worked in various medical settings for about a year and realized I hated it. I may still go back, but into a research role and definitely not practice.
Again, if I were you, I'd stick out the finance thing for a little while, pay off your student loans or whatever, and save up some money. Then you can have a lot more freedom to do as you please. I'm a bit biased, this is what I'm doing (sort of) but if you're not sure what you really want to do.....making money is one of the better things to pass your time until you figure it out.
You can be a healthcare banker.
UFOinsider - definitely agreed - making good money is definitely better until I can figure out the big picture on how I want to live life to fullest...
Beny23- healthcare banking is sweet - definitely trying, but it's not easy, but trying!
Also, can anyone shed light on entertainment banking in LA? Interested in hearing about it. Seems like it's a very small area within IB and extremely tough to get into - plus think I may have heard it's usually more work than other industries...true? any insight appreciated!
If you decide on med school I'd recommend taking a year off and travelling the world. I know way too many doctors who've done absolutely nothing in life except study since their last year of high school. They've actually done NOTHING. I don't even know what to talk about when I see them
I'm not sure if banking is the right industry for you, either...
I'd pick powerpoints and IB grunt work over performing rectal exams etc any day of the week...
Do dental school. 4 years of schooling and a residency is not required in most states. The hours are good and if you have your own practice you can still utilize your business sense. The money may not be high finance money, but can still be pretty darn good. I know someone who was in banking a few years and later did a post-bacc to make the switch to dental.
jdw has a point. Two words: Dental hygienists.
Follow your instincts and do what your gut tells you.
Just remember, a lot of doctors are not happy either. A good freind of mine from high school who just finished his residency in internal medicine cites a lot of his low morale on the amount of time he spends having to treat people whose sickness is directly the cause of their own poor lifestyle decisions.
Just something to think about....
You shouldn't be asking this question on this site. I suggest three things:
Not to be stereotypical, but it's usually the pre-med majors who switch into finance / economics, and not the other way around.
As Beny23 mentioned above, healthcare banking.
I actually went from a job in trading to applying and enrolling in Dental School. I am a D1 and it was a great decision. All the things I liked about business translate to a career that will fit my desired lifestyle. I know of several MDs that wish they were dentists in the current structure of our healthcare system. The healthcare fields offer a great deal of personal satisfaction and a strong income, plus I also look forward to being my own boss before I turn 30.
My gf graduated H/Y/P and couldve done most anything she set her mind to. She chose medicine.. 8+ yrs later and 100+ hr work weeks later and she is a fellow making mid-5 figures at a top hospital in the world. She gets called in at 2am to deal with dumbasses who chose to swallow needles...for the fifth time in two years. My point is that the romance of "saving" people attracts many, but in reality you deal with a lot of patients who simply do not/will not adhere to professional advice and keep doing the same shit. It gets frustrating, the hours blow, and it takes nearly a decade to make real money - all after how many years of opp costs? Plenty of careers to make money and make an impact without sacrificing your time.
If you choose medicine...be a dentist.
Dentistry nap5035 has a great point about dentistry. The guys I know who are established dentist work between 12 and 16 days per month and tend to make good money. I know a periodontist who makes $300K10-q. Working in finance first will make you better with your money in the long-run, although a lot of the people I met on the Street have zero financial discipline, so maybe not. At the HF where I worked, we used to joke that it was time to sell when the doctors, dentists and Asians were buying. Choose wisely, Danielson.
Senior year is not too late for a career switch! I am in the opposite position as OP, albeit much further along in my career. I am a physician in my mid 30s, married and with a family, and considering a switch to finance. I went to target schools for undergrad and med school. I currently am in private practice and own a successful company performing independent medical consultations for disability insurance companies. While I do well and enjoy being my own boss, I have lost the satisfaction I used to get from my work. I realize that I am much more passionate about running my company, especially on the financial end, than the actual work itself. The exit strategy is to continue growing the company and sell in the next couple of years.
I have always been interested in investing and find myself spending much more time reading WSJ, Barron's, investing books, etc. now than reading or thinking about medicine. I have been considering a career transfer to finance for the past couple of years. I'm not sure what would be the best fit for me in finance but have thought about PE/HF. The sad truth is I have no training/background in finance beyond a couple of undergrad econ classes and what I have learned through my own reading so I know I can't just get a job in PE/HF. I have been through med school and residency and know all about paying dues, so I am pretty confident I can do the standard 2 year stint in consulting/IBD prior to transferring to the buy side. I plan on talking with alumni in finance from my undergrad and med school when I get more serious about making a switch.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I would be curious what some of you further along in your finance careers would say to an established doctor thinking of breaking into finance.
Also, OP, I am available to you if you ever want to talk and get the details on pre-med/med school/residency and beyond.
I am a dentist who dabbled in finance and has many friends who ended up in the business. First things first, your attitude is horrible. Yeah, in any field you start off doing low level work - spreadsheets, presentations, damn fillings or discharging patients. Try spending 5 hours daily for a few years just holding hooks in surgery and being freaking thankful when the lead surgeon lets you finish with suturing (which is no harder than what 2$/day illiterate Cambodians do for Nike). Because that is how trust is shown and organisations delegate responsibility. Neither in finance or medicine you will receive wonderful things to do just because you are smart; your work satisfaction will come from achievements, results and the relationships you build. If you are fancy about how you get there you are not going to make it. Let me just say that 98% of general dentist's work are just a few procedures: cleaning, filling, extractions, root canals and prosthetics. Well maybe if you are in the top 2% of graduates you will specialize, but rest assured there are almost as many gunners in dentistry as in finance and medicine.
You can always switch careers, don't let the average Joe's patch hold you back, but it costs. Be responsible. So if your job in finance is shitty, meaning low pay, bad conditions (blood/saliva bacteria? smokers? radiation?) and without prospects - be on the lookout for something else.
However, if your problem is lack of excitement or getting fat then listen to me. All successful people I knew worked more than a comfortable 40h/week. 60 to 100 is what you're looking for. Don't blame the job for making you fat (unless there's a lot of travel) it's up to you. If you work 50 hours/w then you have another 50 to make your life interesting.
I call bullshit on anyone's passion in healthcare unless you can read EKG or tell me anything about BP/diabetes drugs off the top of your head. Same goes for finance. What you want is the best cashlifestylesocial perception. Am I right?
Finally, with the costs of medical education in us (I am European), I'd say the money is barely ok. Actual advice I can contribute is that in finance/f500 you likely have to work in big cities, while in med/dent the opportunities lie mainly outside of them. So that's a big lifestyle choice to make.
GL, and it's good you are looking for advice, as being a student you can't see the thing you would being a few years older.
I'm in the exact opposite position as you. I am currently in med school, actively looking to switch into finance. Medicine is changing dramatically and the only reason I would encourage you to pursue it is if you truly cannot imagine yourself doing anything else.
Let me just lay out the financial situation you will face if you decide to pursue medical school. True average tuition/fees run around 45-60k per year. That does not cover living expenses. So assume you can live on 20k a year. You're looking at 65-80k per year. So after 4 years you have 260-320K in debt. This is actually a low estimate, because it doesn't include the loan distribution fees and the 6.8% annual interest rate that begins the first day you receive a loan distribution. Now include your opportunity cost. Lets say conservatively your after tax income is 40K for each of those four years you are working. In reality if you continue on your current track, your after tax income is going to be higher. But let's assume you have additional 160K in opportunity cost. So at age 27 when you get your MD, you have zero savings, no contributions to any retirement account and including loans, interests, fees and opportunity cost you are negative around 500k.
Next you are looking at 3-7 years in residency/fellowship for an annual salary of 40-50k regardless of whether you do residency in New York or Alabama. I'll let you continue the analysis yourself, but again you are looking at a substantial opportunity cost, minimal savings, and increasing student debt for another 3-7 years. During this entire period of education and training you are working 80-100 hours per week and have virtually no control over your schedule. When you are finally making a specialist salary between 200-300k, you are miles behind where you will be if you continue on the current path you are on now.
Before you make your decision, I would strongly encourage you to talk with some physicians about the current practice environment. Most are very frustrated due to falling reimbursement, increased patient volume/paperwork, and rising malpractices premiums/lawsuits.
IB or buy side will give you a much broader set of exit options and career pathways in a shorter time frame than medicine.
Amazing comments guys. Thanks a lot! I've been thinking a lot about it, and I agree with most of you to continue what I'm already working hard on. Finance is the path for me - I think I was second guessing myself, but yes, medical careers are really on the down. Some doctors I've spoken with are completely pissed about where the industry is headed.
Dentistry though sounds very interesting, but even if I wanted to pursue that it wouldn't be until much later. Good food for thought though, never realized they only work ~10-15 days a month!
Anyways, thanks everyone and will keep you guys posted!
Hahahah, this is hilarious. The last 3 posts were from a doctor, a dentist, and someone in med school. What are the chances? Troll.
I'm interested to know what the decision was?
Any IB analysts leave to go to med school? (Originally Posted: 12/16/2008)
Do you guys know of any IBD analysts who've left to go to med school or a post-bacc premed program before or after their two years?
I've known a few actually. You'd be surprised. They are all doing post-bacs now so who knows if that whole med school thing will work out.
I think part of the reason was that they wanted to do something more interesting with their lives (as cliched as that might sound).
I'm curious, how do those post-bac programs shake out when it comes to comparative strength/prestige?
friend of mine at MS is studying for the MCATS. he graduated in 2008 with a degree in Chem and finished his pre med requirements
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