Not sure what you're asking exactly, but JPMIM blows all of those options away. JP Private Bank is the best PB on the street, and IM has some great groups (spec RE PE, and equity strategies).

What you're saying doesn't really make much sense. If you're running a company that's making you 7-8 figures, why would having some operations experience do anything to sway someone at a business school? Even getting JPMIM wouldn't make a huge difference. The question is whether you can run your family business successfully...

why would you want to go to business school if you are making a 7-figure income?

I would not be making a 7-figure income now. However, in the future it is highly likely that I can hit the $5 million mark and probably substantially more depending on just how much I can expand my family business.

My family business is not related to banking or financial services in really anyway. I have just been thinking that working at a big name like Goldman Sachs & Co. would not just be great to say, but to be in that environment and build a network of contacts is ideal,but only if you really plan to stay in finance, which I obviously do not. I have a very legitimate reason to not stay in finance and I'm sure many MDs and Head of Americas/Group Heads would agree completely.

I'm thinking just to forget Operations because if you think about it, it really is a dead-end job. You aren't going out and helping clients Merge or go public. You aren't trading oil, gold, wheat or some commodity that can fluctuate with the global events daily. You aren't trading stocks, bonds etc...Heck, you aren't even managing money for really wealthy people.

You are back-office and your work just settles the trades made by traders, the mergers/IPOs done by bankers and the portfolio of wealthy people done by private bankers. Yes, while the work operations does is clearly necessary for an investment bank to function, the work seems extremely dull and boring just thinking about it let alone actually doing it.

Furthermore, Operations won't help me in anyway in terms of managing my business successfully but at least Wealth Management can make you a ton of money if you are good and can bring in clients and manage their money well.

Honestly, maybe you should try something like GE's FMP program - you will do a lot with supply chain and corporate finance, and I think you would benefit more from this. Understanding supply chain management is pretty crucial, and IMO would be very helpful in running a business. Also, there is a huge emphasis on leadership stuff at GE, and the guys that exit from there seem to do pretty well.

They do have an FMP internship, which is an open door to a FT FMP offer.

Thank you for your help matchbox39. I really don't see any point at all in investment banking. The hours are crazy, the pay might be great, but I can achieve the pay of MDs and Heads of Americas by doing something different, while still enjoying my 20s and 30s. Managing the money of really wealthy individuals is not going to help me and neither will trading commodities. I think GE might be a great option for me. I grew up right next to its world headquarters and have been exposed to the GE culture. I feel something that can focus more on the operational aspect of business will be most helpful in terms of relating what I have learned to successfully running and expanding my family business.

1- I could be wrong, but I dont see what type of powerful future contacts you're going to make in operations.

2- Running a successful multi-million dollar business is like an elephant and a 2 year ops stint is a flea as far as b-school goes.

3- If you have that type of opportunity, get a head start in the business. It'll be the difference between making 7 figures at 27 or making 7 figures at 30.

I was already running a business and chose the finance route because I really started to despise the business, if I really enjoyed it, I wouldnt be working for someone else.

Another thing to consider.... if you start do a 2 year back office stint, then do the business and decide you effing hate it(as is often the case when you take over a family business, especially if youre sharing responsibility), your options will be VERY limited. If you go right into business and decide you dont like it, you'll only be like 22, 23 at that point and can go to b-school and dont have a back-office stigma stuck to you.

also something to consider... if you take over the business, and whoevers running it retires to leave you at the helm, good luck getting out if you hate it. If you start taking care of it at a younger age, you will most likely assume responsibility with your dad Im guessing, and after 2 years if you dont like it, you can still bail and hopefully you will have not fully taken over. If you're gonna go and work on wall st for 2 years, then come back, the assumption is going to be that you're there to take the helm and your dad can retire, or an older sibling can tend to other projects. Which pretty much means youre shit out of luck. Atleast thats how it would have been for me, if I had gone to work and then come back after. Im working now, and always hear about how I should just come take care of this business or that project, and I do consider it, but I know if I leave now my options are very limited. Id rather give the finance gig 110%, get to where I want to be, then decide what I want more.

DOnt know what kind of business, but I know mine was a royal biatch to get rid of, really had to bust my ass to boost the business up so it would be attractive enough to get bought out by a regional/national competitor, and as is the case in most situations, a lot of it is luck.

I know someone who summered at a BB in Ops and leveraged that into BB interviews the following fall, and ended up with an offer for a BB IB analyst gig.

well some details.....The family business has been in existence since 1981. It isn't just some mom and pop store that I can take over. It is a highly successful business with $20 million in sales last year and many very very large warehouses throughout the United States. We employ roughly 50 people in total including branch offices. I am fortunate and truly thankful to be in this position. The income have been great. I know in each of the last two years our household income was $5-6 million and has been over 7 figures since the company started. I think realistic expansion could make that income level up to $8-10 million with some excellent expansion and sales. My dad is the founder/president and another relative is like a right-hand man.I know that currently the income level is around what your average Goldman Sachs Partner makes and what most Head of Americas in Sales & Trading make.

An older sibling is currently helping out in the business learning about the real-estate aspect of managing the warehouses. However, my older sibling is clearly not the smartest one around, and doesn't seem to have that drive to manage the business as far as buying and selling the machinery. Even if there was shared control we could make a great living, but I think that I will eventually take over due to the fact that I just am more driven and willing to succeed than my brother. This is clear through grades, job opportunities that I have available which he wasn't even close to haing and just a greater passion. My dad realizes this also and will likely pass the reigns on to me.

I really hated the working conditions, but the office was just redone completely and the conditions are excellent now. Fully updated computers, cubicles, bathrooms, offices, etc...

I just can't see myself passing up this opportunity to go work in ibanking. People always talk about the end-game of becoming that star MD or group head etc... I realize that the finance world is a dog-eat-dog world, ruled by politics, Harvard MBAs and people who have sold their lives to the banks in their 20s and some continue to do it throughout their careers. If I can do something that increases my odds of reaching that end-game for all practical purposes (in terms of income) while having a work-life balance that I am sure many bankers even those at the MD and above level would kill for, I don't see why I shouldn't pursue it. I have had many other relatives, even those that are in finance at BBs, friends and acquaintances tell me that passing up this opportunity would be a huge mistake and I would make my life hell trying to reach the same level in the corporate world.

Operations is totally boring, back-office, grunt work. There is no deal making, Operations isn't responsible for making huge deals, your chances of moving to front office Ibanking or Sales & Trading are pretty much zero and the income is nothing close to ibanking or s&t. Ibanking is like literally being a slave for two years and often much longer, and wealth management is not that exciting either. If I run my business I can meet clients everyday, the travel is hectic, but my dad has gone all over the world. I can be the one in charge and do what I think needs to be done without needing clearance from a boss most importantly I can control my lifestyle which bankers can't. etc..

I think I will just do a summer internship at one of these banks just to do something productive for the summer, and then right after I graduate join the family business. I plan to work for 5 years in the business and then get my MBA from a top 10 school and finally return to run the business to an even greater level of success.

Ops sucks. Do the family business out of undergrad.

Honestly with a family business why work any IB gig??? Seven figures and you can expand and you want to go be an Excel monkey ???

Cash, Rules, Everything, Around, Me C.R.E.A.M. Get the money Dollar, dollar bill y'all

Also, in regards to your PWM question, I feel like it's not worth doing if you're only going to be there for two years. I know that the way many BB private client groups are set up is that you get a base amount for the first year (I think it's like 40-50k, might be as high as 60...not entirely sure) and then after that point, it's up to you to build a client base and your salary becomes commission based. Assuming it takes you a year to build a decent client base, you will only be able to work off the foundation of your newly set business for a year.

I agree with you omega. Operations does suck big time. Ibanking is like being a literal slave for two years and it only gets slightly better in terms of work/life balance when you reach Managing Director. The income is great once your up at the MD level, but getting to that level requires dealing with so much bullshit, stress, politics and corporate slavery that I don't see the reason for myself to do it when I can have full control of my work/life balance, and be the one in charge of making decisions and determining how my company will expand. Wealth Management is slightly better than Operations, but the income is still not as high as ibanking or sales & trading and you basically kiss your client's ass 24/7. Trading, although fun, I don't think would be my cup of tea with the huge stress, and craziness of the markets. Also, trading is so volatile and I'm sure when times are tough, as they are now, traders are getting hit very hard.

Is it me or do you always answer your own questions? "I need advice...""I give myself a 5 paragraph answer to my own question".

What kind of business does your family run? It must generate 33%+ margins if you have $20M in sales and $6M in take home income...

A lot of people who'll decide to go into banking or s&t probably think running the family company would be boring as fuck. Whatever floats your boat.

you have an amazing company. 35% ROE and $400,000 sales per employee. 50 warehouses across the country. Is this too good to be true?

are you sure you're not just a fresh-grad who is just trying to get into ops but was afraid to ask or get embarrassed?

not 50 warehouses....50 employees. 8 warehouses.

My dad's business principles are to control overhead costs, diversify our client base so we are not reliant upon one market such as the U.S. or China etc... have absolutely no debt. Everything that our business has is ours, there are no mortgages on the properties and we don't owe any money to anyone. Lastly, we strive to operate with very high margins. We will buy a machinery line for $200,000. Then we will spend $50,000 to refurbish it and we will resell it for $600,000.

When you have more of this particular product than anyone else, you can sell it to your customers much faster. The customer will decide to buy from us because if they buy this particular product new, it will take them 4 months to receive it. With us it will only take 2 weeks. Our customers are always going to be there because our products create a tangible product that is necessary for the function of endless products and many large public companies are our customers.

I am debating whether having Goldman Sachs on my resume, even if it means doing back-office nonsense such as Operations will show potential business school admissions committees that I can hack it in the corporate world.

However, I realize that joining my family business is absolutely the road to go down both in terms of business school admissions and succeeding financially.

if what you say is true than just skip GS. running a successful business is more important than being a part of a success business that someone else runs. good luck.

thank you pineapple. Best of luck to you as well!

I'm still not clear on what your actual original question is? You seem to ask a question in the first post, but then go on to answer it (at length) yourself. With plenty of emphasis on how great your family business is.

If you're as good as you claim to be, and your family business is as strong as you make it out to be, then you'd be a fool to work in any position in an IB. But, you seem to have pointed this out a few times already, so what exactly is the whole point of this thread?

Why dont you take the summer to earn 8-10 creds and then take one in the winter, grad early and start making it raiinnnnnnnnn, having a name on your resume just for having the name is out of whack if you cant meaningfully talk about your experience. Its like wearing a neon pink suit but telling everyone its alright because its armani. Look at a utility function with beta as time value, goldman ops is a low U for a high beta. making it rain all over the streets of where ever it is that you live is a huge U at your prime beta!

JambaMan, you sound like a huge tool.

20mm sales, less than 20mm in net income, 5-7mm goes straight to CEO. high margin business indeed.

Why would it have to be mafia related?? We only have 5 sales associates. All the other people are factory workers that clean, refurbish, and get the machines ready to be sold etc... or IT/Database Administrator and accounts payable.

I am not insecure, I just don't want to work in IBD. I don't think the 100 hours a week would be worth it especially when it consists of modelling about a company's earnings, or creating some pitchbook for the companies to merge/ go public. I don't find it exciting, it doesn't interest me and quite frankly it isn't worth it.

Why would it have to be mafia related?? We only have 5 sales associates. All the other people are factory workers that clean, refurbish, and get the machines ready to be sold etc... or IT/Database Administrator and accounts payable.

I am not insecure, I just don't want to work in IBD. I don't think the 100 hours a week would be worth it especially when it consists of modelling about a company's earnings, or creating some pitchbook for the companies to merge/ go public. I don't find it exciting, it doesn't interest me and quite frankly it isn't worth it.

I think its just odd how IBD interests you less than ops even factoring in the longer hours. It has been reiterated in many ways, if none of it interests you dont do it, why suffer. mathematcially your denominator is of a higher order than your numerator, its pulling your curve down towards 0 as x->infinity, goldman would just be a tiny little point where your derivative was 1 or above, but its still going to take you to the same place, the x axis (family business).

God I have had enough of the Goldman Sachs interviewing hooplah bullshit. I got a god damn post-superday phone interview! Can you believe that. Not even one day after, try one week after my Superday and two days after being told I was put on hold.

Ops. doesn't interest me more than IBD. IBD is interesting in what happens (ie you are the wheels behind the merger or the IPO and you get paid a lot). However, the modelling, pitchbook creation etc... is not my cup of tea.

Forget about banking and get into a corporate leadership program (GE, JNJ, P&G, etc). Much better suited for your personality/interests.

And reading your posts throughout the past 6 months, I completely agree with the above: looks like you couldn't hack it into anything front-office (doubt you'll land JPMIM, and PWM @ GS is BS) and you're trying to flaunt some exaggerrated business. If the job thing is true, skip the ops/PWM stint, as it will only flaw your resume. If it isn't true -- take the ops position and try to leverage it. Don't come onto an IB board and talk about how it doesn't interest you... anyone who has been a member of this board for a while knows you and knows it was your goal. Best of luck to you, but grow up.

Krakauer, the business is 100% true. Thank you for your criticism, but I have now understood the fact that working in my family business and taking it over will be a far better option for me both in terms of financial success and business school admissions etc....

This thread should now be closed. I have nothing more to say about the thread.

BO is hard to break out of if you want to do FO, say IBD. Research is within reach. Good luck.

Yea, working in GS even for BO will be good especially if you have nothing else. CFA and other such things can help you transition, but it is especially hard to get out of GS BO to GS FO.

I also heard its very hard to get out of GS BO. There are other firms in which it is easier, it all depends on the culture.

OP - no idea, but i'd try to speak with people at GS and in other companies. Asking on this forum isn't great specifically as things might be different in the US/UK and that's where the majority of the people on here are

I don't think you should bank on that fact that because it's GS therefore I will be able to lever it to other FO roles. If you have other opportunities more relevant to the FO roles you want to be in, I suggest you to take it over GS BO.

OPS -> ER/MO -> IBD/S&T

It takes time, but I did it. Get as many certifications as you can, and remember: having a decent job at this point sure beats being unemployed!

Congrats and good luck!

Just make sure you gain something from the ops role. Fact is that most don't, nor are their the opportunities to. BO is always better than nothing

JPM is pretty good in moving ppl around, but this doesn't mean BO to FO right away...that's still hard. Goldman is even worse...from what i got in casual convos with Goldmanites.

ive seen BO people in India moved to FO roles at BB. CFA, networking will help...but you will need a lot of patience. it's hard to do a job you really don't want to do for very long...maybe the CFA will help keep you focused during that time.

thanks a lot for the responses guys

So basically its possible if i finish my CFA and network with the right people right?

will a situation arise when other BBs look at my resume and see that i've been working at the back office , and they proceed to put me in their back office as well? :|

im sorry if these questions sound immature or anything :D im fresh out of college and clueless about these things.

Thanks kj

from what my friends have told me...

1. depends on group. the range is 60-100 hours.
2. i believe so.
3. no idea. except it's in asia.
4. starting is usually 55K + 5-10k signing + bonuses (low to nothing)
5. yes, should be 1.5x
6. no clue.
7. enjoy your summer. keep sights and other opportunities open. dont think you wish to be in ops forever.

Where is Jambaman?

• I dont think Ops is anywhere remotely close to 60-100 hours. Most likely under 60 hours.

• Bonus is, as said above, low to nothing. Most likely you'll get some sort of overtime, and a negligible bonus.

• network like crazy before and after you start. Get to know as many ppl as possible, learn as much as possible about what the people you meet do, why they do it, why its important, and if its something you would be good at and/or enjoy

oh and ya ops is 60 hrs a week MAX probably closer to 50 i dk where you people get your information from. agree on networking so you have a shot of getting out of ops asap

I did an internship in GS Ops in SLC and nobody worked more than 55 hours a week and the work was boring as hell

any more comments or opinion.. anyone?

Hong Kong-ers tend to have a more intense working culture, not so much of a work life balance. But for ops not sure. But yeah.. get ready to work hard in Hong Kong.. ill be starting there too in July... its an awesome place! (yeah im asian.. biased i know) :P

I have heard of some people getting them yes.

friend of mine already got his, 3 or 4 weeks ago no less.

Literally a few days ago I asked this exact question to a guy working in ops at Goldman, his asnwer was that is is extremely difficult.  He has seen it happen a few times, but it takes years often, and is a huge process, since you are not even eligible to move for a certain period of time.  You need a ton of dedication, the right contacts, and noone knows if you will even be at a point in your life where you can make a move to much longer hours- namely married and or kids.  So in short it is possible, but rare and difficult.

Sup Stern,

Goldman superdays are much like BlackRock's...4/5 people, 30mins each, from my experience. primarily all fit/behavioral questions...if he has a finance major, i'd expect technicals. definitely know the market conditions...but nothing as in depth like our PAG interview.

When do we hear back? a week she said?

best of luck again, hope one of us gets it. (pretty sure i didnt LOL)

where is the location? Big 4 pays alot better