GOP Debate

They are actually giving Ron Paul some airtime tonight. Brett Bair is trying his best to make Paul look stupid, but if he keeps getting an opportunity to speak Iowa could well go to Ron Paul come January.

EDIT: As per RagnarDanneskjold's request. Here are tonight's RP Highlights. http://www.yankeesdaily.com/post/36644

 
mb666:
pingafrita:
I'm sorry guys, but RP sounds like a fkin idiot when it comes to Iran....RP as president - a SCARY fkin thought

So you're a war-mongerer? What has Iran done to the United States? Please no talking points... what are their acts of aggression against us?

They actively sponsor the insurgent groups we're fighting, and has been an active supporter of these groups for forty years. Before that, they were a nexus point for the Soviets. The DOD has been itching for about fifty years to slap their sorry asses back in line: the sad reality is that they're a virtually impotent society seeking to become a regional power. In fact, I believe that in 2003, Colin Powell's recommendation to G.W. Bush contained a typo:

IraQ instead of IraN

and they invaded the wrong fucking country. So, I and a legion of otherwise apolitical Americans joined whoever was currently taking to the streets to voice our distain for this severe error.

EDIT:

Ok, so instead of being hateful about that war, I'll just point out that Iran has been a far bigger thorn in America's side than most of the other countries in the region.

Get busy living
 
wadtk:
Thought RP destroyed Bachmann in their scuffle on Iran. Made Bachmann look like a war chief. She had to mutter, "I'm for peace for the American people" as the bell dinged.
hahaha that was by far the funniest moment so far. When in doubt break out the faux patriotism
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky. Said by Michael Scott." - Michael Scott
 
wadtk:
Thought RP destroyed Bachmann in their scuffle on Iran. Made Bachmann look like a war chief. She had to mutter, "I'm for peace for the American people" as the bell dinged.

Yea, and RP couldnt answer a question that was asked THREE times in a row. He's so against the US "policing" the world, I'd like to ask him what state the world would be in if the US had not intervened so many times in the past. I'm from a country that attempted to ethinically cleanse a minority, had the US not stepped in, I wouldnt have much to call family.

 
pingafrita:
wadtk:
Thought RP destroyed Bachmann in their scuffle on Iran. Made Bachmann look like a war chief. She had to mutter, "I'm for peace for the American people" as the bell dinged.

Yea, and RP couldnt answer a question that was asked THREE times in a row. He's so against the US "policing" the world, I'd like to ask him what state the world would be in if the US had not intervened so many times in the past. I'm from a country that attempted to ethinically cleanse a minority, had the US not stepped in, I wouldnt have much to call family.

what state is the US in after spending so much money intervening?

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
 
pingafrita:
wadtk:
Thought RP destroyed Bachmann in their scuffle on Iran. Made Bachmann look like a war chief. She had to mutter, "I'm for peace for the American people" as the bell dinged.

Yea, and RP couldnt answer a question that was asked THREE times in a row. He's so against the US "policing" the world, I'd like to ask him what state the world would be in if the US had not intervened so many times in the past. I'm from a country that attempted to ethinically cleanse a minority, had the US not stepped in, I wouldnt have much to call family.

We wouldn't be broke. STAND UP FOR SOMETHING YOURSELF FOR ONCE. Every other country in the world begs us for help. The USA always saves the day. The rest of the world depends on us. Now we're broke and we need to decide which way we want to go. That question you mention was a flawed question and RP knew it. Brett was trying to make Paul look bad tonight.

 
pingafrita:
I'm from a country that attempted to ethinically cleanse a minority, had the US not stepped in, I wouldnt have much to call family.

Who cares. If the people of your country feel the best thing they can do with their time and capital is to kill each other, then they should be given ample opportunity to do so.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 
pingafrita:
wadtk:
Thought RP destroyed Bachmann in their scuffle on Iran. Made Bachmann look like a war chief. She had to mutter, "I'm for peace for the American people" as the bell dinged.

Yea, and RP couldnt answer a question that was asked THREE times in a row. He's so against the US "policing" the world, I'd like to ask him what state the world would be in if the US had not intervened so many times in the past. I'm from a country that attempted to ethinically cleanse a minority, had the US not stepped in, I wouldnt have much to call family.

That's too bad for your family, but what business is that of America? We don't owe it to you to sort out your problems.

 

Hey fucktard, why don't you join the military after you finish college? No? Well then shut the fuck up about war mongering.

My favorite part was when Bachmann said Iran would wipe out Israel with 1 nuke. I yelled at the TV that Israel has ~300 nukes already!

 
Short Lucifer:
oh Santorum...Al-Qaeda in Venezuela? This shit is funny

Just saw this thread. I don't remember Santorum saying this, but he's right. AQ does have a footprint in Venezuela, but it's nowhere near as large as Hezbollah's. This has been going on for many years.

Hezbollah actually handles a wide variety of financing and money laundering activities for the Cartels. I've been meaning to write a post about it on here but haven't had the time yet.

 

I honestly can't stand the Fox News people. You can just see how they go out of their way to support some candidates and rip Ron Paul, or just ignore him. That network is a joke. If they were conservative they would have been behind Ron Paul from the start

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky. Said by Michael Scott." - Michael Scott
 

@Interventionists

If we hadn't intervened in Iran by overthrowing their democratically elected leader in 1953, would we even be talking about nuclear weapons? Be objective for a second...tell me how YOU would react to a country overthrowing your government because it wants to dictate what you can do with your oil reserves. Should that not evoke some feeling of retaliation?

"I'd rather die than be a phony." - Patrice O'Neal
 
Ruxin:
Ron Paul is the only candidate that relies on common sense when formulating his positions.

Anybody else supporting the money bomb tomorrow?

Ill throw in 20 bucks. Significant for a broke college kid
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky. Said by Michael Scott." - Michael Scott
 
Short Lucifer:
Ruxin:
Ron Paul is the only candidate that relies on common sense when formulating his positions.

Anybody else supporting the money bomb tomorrow?

Ill throw in 20 bucks. Significant for a broke college kid

Same - threw in $35...lezgoooooo

Impossible is nothing
 

The problem with the politicians who warmonger is how they present war as "uncomplicated, manageable, simple" to the public.

Cant imagine anything more trying and horrific than being in a war. It just seems wrong to promote it in any form.

Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you. -Jeremy Clarkson
 

Jeff, don't pretend Iran isn't a shithole. So you have a few highrise apartments and a 1G cellphone network, big fucking deal, so does Zimbabwe. Iran's GDP per capita is $5500. They are also crippled by their retarded religion and their fascist leader. Big changes will come to Iran soon with their younger generation.

Pingafrita, if SHTF in the middle east the only thing I and most other Americans would care about is the price of oil. I couldn't give half a fuck about Israel or Iraq or Saudi Arabia. If Iran poses a legitimate threat to western oil supplies then I believe we should intervene. If there is no money to be gained then I see no reason to waste billions of dollars and thousands of lives fighting a war with Iran. And for all you nay sayers who don't think Iran either a) has nukes b) is getting nukes or c) has access to nukes then you are delusional. However the possibility of them being used is slim to none in the near future because of MAD and Achmwhatever knows this. I see him possibly trying to nuke Israel as a last gasp while he is being overthrown by his own people a-la-Syria or Egypt in the next 10 years. Iran poses no direct threat to the United States.

As far as policing the world goes, fuck that. We know what happens, costly wars and a damaged reputation. I am sick of this white man's burden rhetoric about bringing these poor people out of slavery/poverty/dictatorships, we have clearly seen that they can do it themselves in the past year. And besides, if they kill each other, BFD. There's too many people anyways. We should be committed to our European and other allies and that's it. If your race/culture is a total inferior shitfest then you don't deserve anything and you shouldn't expect it from America (I'm looking at you africa).

If there is economic gain from it, fine. Otherwise, fuck you and your shitty country, fix your own fucking problems. The issue is that America is damned if we do and damned if we don't; we get blamed for anything wrong and no credit if we do it right. And we have a full year's GDP worth of debt to fix as well as a sluggish economy. So rest of the world, suck a dick.

Leave the altruism to the red cross and Catholic Charities.

 

[quote=jon1987]Ron Paul: the non-bloodthirsty candidate in the running. Bachmann looked like a fool tonight, how she deserves any support after this beyond me.

Fact check that proves her wrong:

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-gingrich-off-budget-history-024958105…] She's trying to scare people into voting for her, or another neo-con. Which is disgusting, dramatic, and obvious.

 

[quote=jon1987]Ron Paul: the non-bloodthirsty candidate in the running. Bachmann looked like a fool tonight, how she deserves any support after this beyond me.

Fact check that proves her wrong:

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-gingrich-off-budget-history-024958105…]

+1

watching newt and mitt trying to outdo each others' bloodthirty rhetoric would be funny if it weren't so troubling. so it has come to this. a former house speaker and leading presidential candidate calling for assassinations of scientists in countries that we have not declared war on. this is the legal definition of terrorism and we have a leading GOP candidate on stage swaggering around, proud of his gangsterism.

so this is how fascism comes to america.

we barely held off the fascists the first time in the 1930s when general butler blew the whistle on the business plot*, but this time the illiterate wing of the GOP who gets a hard-on for any war will be ushering them in.

*if you need to look up "business plot" before you respond to this you need to seriously re-think whether you are properly qualified to opine on any of these matters.

 

Foreign intervention seems to be a lose-lose for the US. We stay out, and are accused of standing by while atrocities are committed. If we intervene, then we are neo-imperialists. This doesn't change the fact that we cannot police the world. We are powerful, but do we really want to always be engaged in some sort of conflict? And how do we determine where to intervene? I am sure there are human rights abuses in China...

Getting back to the debate, it was almost laughable: Gingrich and Romney were basically calling eachother RINO's all night long. They both have pretty terrible track records as far as conservatism goes.

Hopefully Paul will pull through Iowa. I think Ron Paul followers are more dedicated than average, so maybe he can pull out a win. I mean, is anybody really excited about Newt in the White House?

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/12/15/washington-wire-to-live-blog-g…

^Recap of the debate. The commentary on Paul is hilarious. Here is an excerpt:

"Note to Ron Paul: Defending Iran is NOT a good way to win over Republican primary voters.

(Of course, it’s clear he doesn’t care.)"

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 

@duffmt6:

Yeah, that shit is hysterical. Just more evidence of the media not doing it's actual job. Rather, they need to be saying "Ron Paul does not support pre-emptive war with Iran because of x, y, and z whereas other candidates do because of x, y, and z."

Instead, they push horse race crap and treat his point of view as some sort of joke which is complete and utter non-sense. I mean, honestly, what % of the population is even remotely as hawkish as Romney / Gingrich / Santorum...maybe 15%? These are massively unpopular views in the grand scheme of the entire population.

 

The American public could give a shit about war. If unemployment was at 5% and incomes are rising, we could invade Canada and people would support it. You can thank the all volunteer military and continually decreasing war related fatalities for that.

Paul is a great guy and has a bigger purpose than being simply a Congressman, but he is not going to get elected President. I think all this new support for him is good and will benefit his son, but Paul's position goes against too many established players. Also, people do not like change, especially Republicans.

Romney will get the nomination. Paul will run as a 3rd party candidate and Obama will win because the Republican vote will be split. Republicans will take the Senate and solidify the House and we will be blessed with 4 more years of a President moving to the left, instead of the center.

If you think class division and resentment is strong now, just imagine what it will be with 4 more years of "not my fault" in office. Sickening.

 

Also, way to trivialize casualties in meaningless wars. Not to mention, we don't want our citizens getting brutally injured (losing limbs, and the like) either in meaningless wars.

I hope the Republicans nominate Gingrich, get absolutely destroyed by Obama, and then completely flush out all the garbage from their system.

 
TheKing:
Also, way to trivialize casualties in meaningless wars. Not to mention, we don't want our citizens getting brutally injured (losing limbs, and the like) either in meaningless wars.

I hope the Republicans nominate Gingrich, get absolutely destroyed by Obama, and then completely flush out all the garbage from their system.

Trivialize what? Casualty rates have continually declined. We've lost ~8K people in two wars, spanning nearly a decade. Compare that to previous wars.

Additionally, I love and respect soldiers. I also respect the fact that they willingly and freely choose that profession. The easiest way to not die in war is to not be a soldier.

More Democrats are up for re-election or not seeking re-election. If the Dems do keep the Senate, it will most likely be an even slimmer majority. Either way, Obama will be unable to get anything done unless he comes to the center like Clinton did or forgets this increasing taxes bullshit.

 
ANT:
TheKing:
Also, way to trivialize casualties in meaningless wars. Not to mention, we don't want our citizens getting brutally injured (losing limbs, and the like) either in meaningless wars.

I hope the Republicans nominate Gingrich, get absolutely destroyed by Obama, and then completely flush out all the garbage from their system.

Trivialize what? Casualty rates have continually declined. We've lost ~8K people in two wars, spanning nearly a decade. Compare that to previous wars.

Additionally, I love and respect soldiers. I also respect the fact that they willingly and freely chose that profession. The easiest way to not die in war is to not be a soldier.

More Democrats are up for re-election or not seeking re-election. If the Dems do keep the Senate, it will most likely be an even slimmer majority. Either way, Obama will be unable to get anything done unless he comes to the center like Clinton did or forgets this increasing taxes bullshit.

Odds are the Republicans shed a couple seats in the house. The senate could actually split evenly if you look at which Republicans and Democrats are actually up.

Also the fact that they signed up to be soldiers doesn't meant we should put them in harms way for no reason. Those 8,000 soldiers are still dead, not to mention all of the wounded people seem to conveniently forget, and a war in Iran guarantees another 10,000 casualties as the Iranians will probably put up a real fight.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky. Said by Michael Scott." - Michael Scott
 
ANT:
Either way, Obama will be unable to get anything done unless he comes to the center like Clinton did or forgets this increasing taxes bullshit.

Clinton raised taxes.

With the exception of the stimulus (and really, only part of it), I don't really understand the attacks on Obama as a leftist ideologue. What exactly has he done that is so damn left of center? The health care plan was originally Bob Dole's idea, and Obama dropped the public option in an attempt to garner Repulican support (to no avail). Dodd-Frank is largely panned by the left because it doesn't go far enough in regulating banks. Wall Street has it's most profitable year ever after Obama took office. He has largely continued the foreign policy of his neocon predecessor (much to my chagrin). He passed a huge amount of tax cuts in the stimulus, continued the Bush tax cuts, and is trying to continue the payroll tax cuts.

I don't get it. Is it the rhetoric? Or the actual policies?

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 

Meaningless war? You mean like every war. Please tell me why we lost American lives in WWI and WWII (Europe, Africa and Italy).

You can't have a massive military without using it from time to time.

Also, the USA is broke because we are retarded invaders. When the British had an empire they benefited from their colonies. The USA invades a country, sets up a Democracy, provides billions in aid and then leaves, after paying for everything themselves.

 
ANT:
Meaningless war? You mean like every war. Please tell me why we lost American lives in WWI and WWII (Europe, Africa and Italy).

You can't have a massive military without using it from time to time.

Also, the USA is broke because we are retarded invaders. When the British had an empire they benefited from their colonies. The USA invades a country, sets up a Democracy, provides billions in aid and then leaves, after paying for everything themselves.

You're to the right of John Bolton. I'm speechless.

 

The issue with Iran having nuclear weapons is it will prevent us from invading or bombing them. You need to keep them from having nukes because we need to have the ability to invade or bomb Iran if they become aggressive or try and block the shipment of oil.

Iran is a major OPEC power and could destabilize the region. Until the day comes when we don't need that black gold, the US needs to ensure that we keep getting our supply. If force is needed to guarantee that, so be it.

 

No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been invaded. Just like you cannot abuse someone with a gun. Keeping Iran non-nuclear will allow us to do whatever we want. Look at what happened to the price of oil when Saddam invaded Kuwait. Imagine a nuclear Iran pulling shit. The price would skyrocket.

We need the ability to coerce other nations into doing things which benefit us.

 
ANT:
No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been invaded. Just like you cannot abuse someone with a gun. Keeping Iran non-nuclear will allow us to do whatever we want. Look at what happened to the price of oil when Saddam invaded Kuwait. Imagine a nuclear Iran pulling shit. The price would skyrocket.

We need the ability to coerce other nations into doing things which benefit us.

Or, you know, we could direct resources to developing an independence from their natural resources, take the first step away from ensuring that many more generations of foreign Muslims won't hate us with a violent passion, and keep from poking at the WWIII bear.
 
ThaVanBurenBoyz:
ANT:
No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been invaded. Just like you cannot abuse someone with a gun. Keeping Iran non-nuclear will allow us to do whatever we want. Look at what happened to the price of oil when Saddam invaded Kuwait. Imagine a nuclear Iran pulling shit. The price would skyrocket.

We need the ability to coerce other nations into doing things which benefit us.

Or, you know, we could direct resources to developing an independence from their natural resources, take the first step away from ensuring that many more generations of foreign Muslims won't hate us with a violent passion, and keep from poking at the WWIII bear.

I like it!

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
ANT:
Which point do you want me to walk you through?

Well, what I want to hear is an explanation as to the following:

--How we'll stop Iran from going nuclear

--Why we need to (beyond high level "they could disrupt oil supplies at some point, maybe")

--How on Earth an invasion would EVER be sold to the American people post-Iraq

--How you personally are ok with sending people to die for such nebulous reasons

 

--How we'll stop Iran from going nuclear

We are already disrupting them. We could use cruise missiles or bunker busters. Personally, I would use Israel to do this so the US could have plausible deniability.

--Why we need to (beyond high level "they could disrupt oil supplies at some point, maybe")

The ME is a resource rich and sensitive region. Disruption in oil from any major OPEC nation would drive up the price of oil and cripple our economy. Iran can also influence weaker nations to our detriment.

--How on Earth an invasion would EVER be sold to the American people post-Iraq

People do not care. We don't need to invade either. Look at Libya. Air assaults, weaponized drones, bombing, all can achieve our goal. With Iraq and Afghanistan we can fly round the clock sorties.

--How you personally are ok with sending people to die for such nebulous reasons

I suppose that is why I am not a liberal.

 
ANT:
--How we'll stop Iran from going nuclear

We are already disrupting them. We could use cruise missiles or bunker busters. Personally, I would use Israel to do this so the US could have plausible deniability.

--Why we need to (beyond high level "they could disrupt oil supplies at some point, maybe")

The ME is a resource rich and sensitive region. Disruption in oil from any major OPEC nation would drive up the price of oil and cripple our economy. Iran can also influence weaker nations to our detriment.

--How on Earth an invasion would EVER be sold to the American people post-Iraq

People do not care. We don't need to invade either. Look at Libya. Air assaults, weaponized drones, bombing, all can achieve our goal. With Iraq and Afghanistan we can fly round the clock sorties.

--How you personally are ok with sending people to die for such nebulous reasons

I suppose that is why I am not a liberal.

So do they hate us for our freedom, or do they hate us because we do things like that ^ ?

Genuine question here. Open to anyone.

 

I would image the same amount of money and resources that would be required for a military conflict with Iran (and their allies) could materially, and permanently change the landscape of alternative energy, alongside further domestic and friendly oil exploration. Plus, there would be no blowback to manage/pass on to future generations. We could make a conflict with Iran sound efficient, but there's nothing to suggest that would be the case.

 
ThaVanBurenBoyz:
I would image the same amount of money and resources that would be required for a military conflict with Iran (and their allies) could materially, and permanently change the landscape of alternative energy, alongside further domestic and friendly oil exploration. Plus, there would be no blowback to manage/pass on to future generations. We could make a conflict with Iran sound efficient, but there's nothing to suggest that would be the case.

I like this too!

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
Best Response

Comparing Iran to Libya/Iraq is really stupid. Iran is a top 30 GDP nation. Iran has some of the best technology, scientists and engineers in the world. Any attack on Iranian soil, and you will force the entire country of Iran to equip themselves just like America would in if they were attacked. Unlike Libya/Iraq, Iranian youth don't want America to walk in and save the day, instead they will gladly shoot back no matter who their leader is. We have not even discussed that China/Russia will fund Iran to support itself easily and they already do. Any war with Iran is going to last a long time, make the world more bankrupt. In reality Iran is a top 30 GDP nation with tremendous national problems. Iran is the pinnacle of 99.99% vs .01% and really for them to enter into a war or seriously threaten the world is beyond stupid. They need to focus on fixing their inflation, energy and overall "brain drain" issues at home.

Yet given all this most of my middle eastern friends, say they hope the US goes for Iran and it wrecks them both. Likewise seems some of you still want World War 3 as well.

 

They don't hate our freedom because I honestly don't believe many people in the ME actually want our type of freedom. The Middle East (in general) puts more importance on faith and religion than in the western world. Women in bikini's, gay marriage, premarital sex, etc would all be non starters, but also necessary to have true individual liberties.

IMO, the ME "hates" the US because we are the target and embodiment of western culture and what might be called immoral freedom. Europe is a lot like us, but Europe isn't invading the hornets nest like the US does routinely.

Regardless, they dislike our culture and we want their oil. When the well runs dry we will move along and they will be selling sand and dates. Extremely sad since the ME has the one of the worlds greatest commodities and instead of educating and advancing their people they oppress them. Even when the people rise up, they instinctively run towards what they know, religion, which prevents true freedom.

The USA does what is in its best interest. The country was formed by force, states were added by war and I don't really see anything wrong with it. Yes, would 100% suck to not be an American, but I am an American and I want cheap oil and a well running economy. If that means we need to invade countries so be it.

I just don't understand why people don't get this. We live in a world of winners and losers. I'd rather be the winner. And if anyone thinks other countries don't do this they are nuts.

 
ANT:
They don't hate our freedom because I honestly don't believe many people in the ME actually want our type of freedom. The Middle East (in general) puts more importance on faith and religion than in the western world. Women in bikini's, gay marriage, premarital sex, etc would all be non starters, but also necessary to have true individual liberties.

IMO, the ME "hates" the US because we are the target and embodiment of western culture and what might be called immoral freedom. Europe is a lot like us, but Europe isn't invading the hornets nest like the US does routinely.

Regardless, they dislike our culture and we want their oil. When the well runs dry we will move along and they will be selling sand and dates. Extremely sad since the ME has the one of the worlds greatest commodities and instead of educating and advancing their people they oppress them. Even when the people rise up, they instinctively run towards what they know, religion, which prevents true freedom.

The USA does what is in its best interest. The country was formed by force, states were added by war and I don't really see anything wrong with it. Yes, would 100% suck to not be an American, but I am an American and I want cheap oil and a well running economy. If that means we need to invade countries so be it.

I just don't understand why people don't get this. We live in a world of winners and losers. I'd rather be the winner. And if anyone thinks other countries don't do this they are nuts.

I have no doubt that they hate us for both reasons: we are kicking their asses, and our culture is a lot more libertine and an affront to their cultural conservatism. But really, I think reason #2 is the icing on the cake rather than the main thing.

I realize that if we weren't kicking ass and enforcing petrodollar hegemony, all of us would have to accept a lower standard of living.

However, if it came between living in a poorer and more free country than the other way around, I choose the freer country. If we are going to fight a permanent war we have to do it right. And like abe lincoln we need to suspend habeas corpus and implement some police state style methods. This is necessary when you are fighting an insurgency against your empire on your own homeland.

I don't like seeing old grandmothers getting treated like criminals at the airport. It just seems so unamerican to me.

But that's a matter of personal preference for which there is no objective right or wrong and I suppose we just have to leave it at that.

 

Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Ron Paul is awesome, love him, but this country doesn't want libertarianism. People want a paycheck, anyway they can get it. Telling people that they need to educate themselves, limit child birth if they cannot feed the kids, move wherever jobs are and be self reliant, they will go nuts.

Liberty benefits those who are educated and self motivated. It is a death sentence for everyone else. The vast majority would trade liberty for 3 hots and a cot.

 
ANT:
Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Ron Paul is awesome, love him, but this country doesn't want libertarianism. People want a paycheck, anyway they can get it. Telling people that they need to educate themselves, limit child birth if they cannot feed the kids, move wherever jobs are and be self reliant, they will go nuts.

Liberty benefits those who are educated and self motivated. It is a death sentence for everyone else. The vast majority would trade liberty for 3 hots and a cot.

Sad but true.

 
ivoteforthatguy:
ANT:
Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Ron Paul is awesome, love him, but this country doesn't want libertarianism. People want a paycheck, anyway they can get it. Telling people that they need to educate themselves, limit child birth if they cannot feed the kids, move wherever jobs are and be self reliant, they will go nuts.

Liberty benefits those who are educated and self motivated. It is a death sentence for everyone else. The vast majority would trade liberty for 3 hots and a cot.

Sad but true.

Scary that this is so accurate

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 
ANT:
Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Man your view is such .. perverted and sadistic. With outlooks like those, you could make a good leader of a cannibal tribe. What has happened to America..

Nobody wants to work for it anymore. There's no honor in taking the after school job at Mickey D's. Honor's in the dollar, kid.
 
nonTargetChimp:
ANT:
Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Man your view is such .. perverted and sadistic. With outlooks like those, you could make a good leader of a cannibal tribe. What has happened to America..

My views are pretty rational and realistic. Chinese works are not stealing jobs from Americans, they are stealing them from machines. Automation will only increase. We are in an age of information and service. Innovators, educated workers, etc. Even white collar jobs are being outsourced.

You cannot stop this. We live in a global world with global boarders. Isolationism and protectionist policies will help unemployment in the short run, but kill us in the long run.

Regretfully, we have an underclass that is lacking in education and skills. As the world speeds up these people will continue to fall behind the curve. Individual freedom will prevent the government from enforcing good behavior and ending the cycle of bad parenting or educational neglect. We therefore will have a large population of people that are unneeded, not useful, but must be listened to and taken care of. This will either be done peacefully or violently.

In looking at European nations with much more generous entitlement programs, I can only come to the conclusion that force is necessary. Giving greater benefits only leads to the want of even more benefits. There is no point of satisfaction. The carrot will only provide a temporary reprieve. Eventually the stick will come out and become the defacto method.

This is why both parties are rolling out additional police state measures.

Same thing with illegal immigrants. They don't take jobs from Americans, they take sales from John Deere. Unskilled labor is becoming no longer needed. The question is what do we do with the unskilled laborers.

 
nonTargetChimp:
ANT:
Additionally, Democrats and Republicans are for the same thing, control. You have a large and growing uneducated and unneeded population that will become increasingly more disruptive if not taken care of. We either institute a socialistic system to placate them or we become more of a police state to force their compliance.

Man your view is such .. perverted and sadistic. With outlooks like those, you could make a good leader of a cannibal tribe. What has happened to America..

Yeah, I'm thinking why not just maintain the public education systems and make provisions for when jobs are terminated en masse? Ultimately, the US isn't the place to be if you're looking for a real welfare state and it isn't why people come here. But I'm thinking that hordes of uneducated / unemployed people aren't exactly a good thing either.

The best example of a gov't program that is worth it is the GI Bill. It was originally instituted because FDR understood that millions of men returning from combat and sitting idle was a recipe for total disaster. The youth are particularly malleable, and people who are changing careers (volutarily or otherwise) are generally motivated, so those are two good areas to really focus on...the rest, well, I dunno, I'm not a sociologist.

Get busy living
 

Problem is this. The returning GI's had decent high school educations and there was also a manufacturing base in the US. Our economy has shifted away from that. We are an information/service economy. Unfortunately the % of uneducated workers has not decreased proportionately.

Schools continually receive more and more money. Increasing school funding is something that every politician does. Voting against "the children" is only something the devil and myself would do. Problem is that the USA now has the best playgrounds and high school football teams in the world. You don't need an Ipad to learn math.

You also need decent parents. People who read to their kids and instill educational values. How do you government-ally enforce this without violating freedoms?

See. By allowing people to make free choices, you are allowing them to make bad choices. We all have to deal with these bad choices. Hence why you need to pay them off (socialism) or force their compliance (fascism).

 

Concentrations of wealth are a by product of the capitalistic society. We can pay the poor off with entitlements, but it will only temporarily satiate them. They will want more and eventually is will decrease all of our standard of living.

Their demands will mean the end to our freedom.

 
ANT:
Concentrations of wealth are a by product of the capitalistic society. We can pay the poor off with entitlements, but it will only temporarily satiate them. They will want more and eventually is will decrease all of our standard of living.

Their demands will mean the end to our freedom.

and according to this line of reasoning, the solution is.......?
Get busy living
 
ivoteforthatguy:
man you are on a roll today.

the solution is really to reduce the human population. part of the reason there was a middle class in europe was because of the black plague. hopefully we can achieve a population decline via fewer births and not horrible death, but who knows, nature's way is mysterious.

BWAHAHAHA, so social programs are bad, but decreasing the surplus population via war is good.

Surplus population.

Where have I heard that?

Get busy living
 
ivoteforthatguy:
man you are on a roll today.

the solution is really to reduce the human population. part of the reason there was a middle class in europe was because of the black plague. hopefully we can achieve a population decline via fewer births and not horrible death, but who knows, nature's way is mysterious.

Impossible when most births are in countries with rising life expectancy.

 
ProvincialPeasant:
ivoteforthatguy:
man you are on a roll today.

the solution is really to reduce the human population. part of the reason there was a middle class in europe was because of the black plague. hopefully we can achieve a population decline via fewer births and not horrible death, but who knows, nature's way is mysterious.

Impossible when most births are in countries with rising life expectancy.

Aren't there fewer births in these countries? Population growth is slowing in the developed countries with rising life expectancy

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 
ivoteforthatguy:
hopefully we can achieve a population decline via fewer births and not horrible death, but who knows, nature's way is mysterious.

Maybe a population explosion of homosexuals?

These threads are so depressing because it really is a reality that most people do not think about. Living standards 20-30 years from now are not going to be what they are today. The solution really does boil down to population control

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 

Speaking of population reduction...I saw this yesterday. Super scary.

Alarm as Dutch lab creates highly contagious killer flu

"At a conference in Malta in September, he described his work as something that was "really, really stupid," but ultimately useful for the development of vaccines."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/alarm-as-dutch-lab-creates-hi…

 

Population reduction is ultimately what will happen. War cannot fulfill this function though.

I see the following happening. Things will get better and then they will get worse. Maybe 20 years, maybe longer, who knows. End of the day, the majority of Americans are middle class or better. The people who are not competitive are the lower 20%. These people will protest, riot, go ape shit and the rest of the nation will silently allow the government to crush their disruptions and institute draconian measures to control and thereby limit them.

Things start slowly and there is a watershed event. People will just turn away and be silent when it happens.

 

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Get busy living
 

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Sed quaerat pariatur magnam eos quasi autem nemo et. Sapiente nulla vel est atque qui porro. Autem doloremque sint corrupti ea tempora id. Officiis ut non iste ea in odit inventore. Pariatur atque rerum ab aliquid earum.

Quos amet dicta tempora impedit qui dolor est est. Et repudiandae libero autem ullam. Doloremque quo qui ut quisquam quis magnam. Et nobis error occaecati libero est laudantium.

Quos ut eveniet id ut eos doloremque. Pariatur unde est similique tenetur saepe. Et consequuntur quia delectus similique placeat nostrum a quaerat. In quo consequatur sed rerum.

 

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Rem omnis quia similique dolores soluta numquam ut. Quas vel reiciendis ratione consequatur. Qui nesciunt voluptate error. Tempora blanditiis odio dicta corporis.

Incidunt maxime sed est est hic. Voluptatem quia dolore est sit. Dicta consequuntur at vel accusamus. Repellat commodi adipisci ut repellendus inventore ut. Nostrum accusantium dolore incidunt aperiam distinctio explicabo. Qui assumenda dolore sunt ut voluptate.

Sed architecto dolorem animi impedit itaque non assumenda. Dolor quod sed deserunt. Velit voluptatum pariatur natus libero unde consectetur.

 

Eaque eius explicabo ea ut explicabo. Consequatur aspernatur at facilis expedita perspiciatis sed mollitia. Aspernatur rerum consequatur odit quia. Quia cum mollitia sunt natus magni fugit. Voluptates corrupti rerum sunt occaecati. Adipisci deserunt tempora enim cum veniam.

Nihil minus repellat tempora omnis. Enim voluptatem voluptatem qui quas. Sequi nobis quibusdam explicabo voluptates quis.

 

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Deserunt possimus beatae ea qui et. Quis qui aut sed. Quas natus facere non adipisci quo enim.

Esse omnis similique harum nemo cupiditate et. Sequi sint reiciendis vero delectus. Repellat facilis at ea tempora magnam iste. Eum neque harum quae alias rerum cum et. Nisi perferendis et dolorem sequi voluptatem dolores.

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