Holy shit.
I will edit my post with my thoughts, opinions, ideas, expectations, and predictions after I think about this. What did you guys think? One thing is for sure.. we now know how that coin landed.
Fire away
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Though I think the series is ending on a sub-par note, I think this episode was a great action sequence that delivers what we want to see, which is shit getting yeeted in general. People are going to go with the whole 'mad queen' story the writers are desperately trying to give us in the final hours of the season, but I say Dany earned it. Her only real error was not barbecuing more people from the beginning.
Hot take saying she earned it but I'm someone who agrees. It had to be like this because anything else would have been underwhelming. Not sure how I feel about the Scorpion plot armor. I realize last episode they were "pre-aimed" at Rhaegal but why weren't they this slow on the boats?
So many people on twitter are upset right now that she went mad queen style but.. did people really think the episode was going to end with a surrender? LOL
I posted my password on this site 3 times
Both happy how it goes but at the same time it somewhat ruins the show. Expected a bit of sadism from Daenerys by killing Cersei herself.
Definitely best episode of the season. It was an 8 or so.
The "Mad Dany" thing completely makes sense. If you go back and look at Dany's scenes throughout the show you'll see she always chooses death and destruction at every opportunity. The only reason she has seemed grounded was because of her advisors (Selmy, Jorah, Varys, Missandei, Tyrion, etc.). Now that she has lost them all (and finally saying screw what Tyrion says after he has failed her over and over) she just starts burning everything and doing it her own way. It felt rushed because they should've been pushing it since season 7 more into your face but it is definitely expected.
I know people didn't like the Northmen just starting to go after civilians but it allowed Jon Snow to see what war is truly about. When you're in those situations, war is not some glorious thing. He got to watch the morality of his convictions failing apart around him.
Qyburn had a perfect GoT death. Cersei seasons back stated to Peter that "Power is Power" and Varys has said that "Power resides where men believe it lies" and guess what? Cersei learned that in that moment, the Mountain decided that Power resided in physical strength and not some lineage BS. Perfect.
I think Jaime could've been handled better but having a failed redemption arc for him seems fine to me. In the end, he DID become a better person. He was willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of humanity but after his survival he couldn't break from his weakness for Cersei.
Euron is a horrendous character in the show and every scene he is in made me mad.
Great decision to show the carnage of the citizens rather than the "Heroes" throughout the fight. Arya continues to have massive plot armor though and its pretty annoying.
8/10. Really good TV. Story got jumbled a while ago but I think it was a good episode for the corner they wrote themselves into.
Story didn’t get jumbled, you only falsely assumed that “the North and allies stood no chance against Cersei and the Iron Bank”.
What? No I didn't. You can even check my comment history from past weeks where I say this will be boring because Cersei has absolutely no chance of winning. Story got jumbled because they needed fAegon in the story really badly for a lot of these things to work together nicely.
Real dick move by Dany. She really showed everyone who's boss by killing all of those fleeing/hiding civilians and surrendering soldiers. Bummer for Varys. "I hope you're right" lmao not even close buddy. Also RIP to the Hound. Good fight bro, thanks for the great performance Rory.
I pretty much only care about Arya at this point. She is definitely not feeling the whole Dany situation. Writers did miss an opportunity tho in that scene where the camera was on the side of her face, I though she was totally gonna turn and have Hound burns. That could have been pretty cool but guess not.
She finally made the smart move. By essentially putting half of King's landing to the sword, she just mitigated the chance of future rebellions against her claim; it' a very powerful move for deterrence used by nearly every highly successful general in history (Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Hannibal, etc.). We're just offended by it in the modern day because of our desire to claim the moral high ground, which is nothing but a luxury we have due to the dominance of the West over the past several decades. Hate to break it to you all, but there's no absolute morality. There's just actions and consequences. The death of a few (relatively to the future) now severely reduces the risk of future rebellions (of course the show could always have Jon betray Dany so that it doesn't offend the audience's views of "good" vs. "evil"), which reduces future death & cements her rule.
The 'Mad Queen' thing is utterly moronic. What is she doing that a thousand generals haven't done a thousand times before with great success? Even in the show, Tywin razed Castamere/other great houses, which cemented his rule in the Westerlands. When the Targaryans came over initially under Aegon, they utterly fried a large part of the population to unite the Kingdoms. Putting a city to the sword isn't madness, it's just a tactic and a highly successful one at that.
Lol look at this guy justifying killing hundreds of thousands.
What a hardo! He probably pops off his F1 key too.
The citizens had already surrendered. All she had to do was burn Cersei or the Red Keep in general and that would’ve been fine.
You and your delicate moral sensibilities.
......and? Are you seriously trying to take the moral high ground to make yourself feel better? I don't need to "justify" it. Virtually every data point supports what I've said. Pragmatism has time and time again been more important, demonstrated by every powerful empire / nation that ever was (Ancient Rome, Ancient Athens, Ancient Sparta, Mongolians, Byzantine Empire, British Empire, etc.). I could on and on with examples. Even the United States has little desire to acknowledge its dark past in nearly wiping out the indigenous peoples of North America for land.
The Ancient Athenians are perhaps the most interesting of all. Of the ancient peoples, they were the ones who contributed most to our current framework of morals / ethics & related philosophy in the Western world. But they were also the ones who came into Melos, told the Melians to surrender, and when they did not, slaughtered every single man, and sold the women & children into slavery. Tell me, was that "ethical," particularly for a society that prided itself on its contributions / dialogue in the field? Quoted directly from the Melian Dialogue by Thucydides: "For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences--either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us--and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Virtually every powerful nation in the history of the world has killed hundreds of thousands / millions through both conventional war and other policies to achieve their objectives. Every. Single. One. Yes, it's shitty, but it's the truth. If you're living in a first world country, you yourself are a beneficiary of the deaths of millions. You can live in denial, that's your choice; just know that the facts won't change because of it.
This is a very edgy monologue, but is in fact quite shortsighted. While the destruction of a major city within the context of war is certainly not unheard of, in this episode the opposing military forces clearly surrendered and were consequently slaughtered along with the civilian populace. The Roman Empire as a whole tended to in fact try and integrate as many dominated foes into its society as possible, allowing them representation in government and the retention of their culture. Bismarck's approach of realpolitik would also be a more recent example of such a "soft peace" policy.
The motivation for this is clear: ignoring the moralistic side of the discussion, an overly harsh approach to the post-conflict integration process by the victor tends to sew the seeds of malcontent in the people of the losing party and actually makes future rebellions more likely. The way WWI was wound down by the Allied Powers vis a vis the Treaty of Versailles for instance is a good example of this. The way Robert Baratheon led his rebellion against the Targaryan dynasty would be another. Of course taking this approach may not necessarily make for the most exciting TV though.
Not necessarily. You bring some valid considerations, but the overly harsh approach you speak about is with regards to post-war integration whereas I'm talking about wartime actions. The seeds of WW2 were sown due to overly harsh terms to the Germans that allowed resentment to fester and gave rise to Hitler. However, the Allies didn't need to be overly harsh post-war. Likewise, Dany could put the city to the sword, but her post-war policies could very easily be about supporting the small folk. Reducing taxes, distributing free food, making the society flatter. The past ~8 years of conflict that have decimated every major house in Westeros, and the various wars (including against the Night King) have further trimmed down the power of the nobility as well, so there's little relative resistance from the nobility if Dany were to push a populist agenda.
Fear has a very important place in ruling, but too much fear will cause rebellion, as you rightly allude to. It takes a balance, a willingness to totally crush your enemies & deter future rebellions, but also a willingness to care about your people once the conflict has been finished. Now that Dany has demonstrated her ruthlessness (which is why she had to destroy the city), and given the severely weakened position of the nobility (also gives her the chance to appoint people loyal to her in major posts like she did with Gendry), she is in the perfect position to usher in new reforms that would make the lives of regular Westerosi folk better while cementing her rule.
She basically guaranteed Jon/the North would rebel..... what are u talking about lol.
And that's what I was referring to in the later part of that paragraph, that Jon would likely betray Dany so as to fit in with the audience's views of "good" and "evil." In this setting, the writers / producers need to make it fit with their particular narrative of Jon being the savior (quite literally Jesus with the way he has come back to life), and will make that work somehow, making Jon this character who takes the throne selflessly.
In the real world, the primary reason to betray your commander in such a way is to seize power, which is more about self-interest. In the real world, Alexander & Caesar (among thousands of other figures) both mitigated rebellions through ruthlessness (sometimes demonstrating it multiple times throughout a campaign if necessary). No major figure rebelled against them claiming this moral high ground for "the sake of the common people"; the very idea is laughable.
So yes, at the end of the day, they'll likely make Jon/Arya betray Dany, but taking aside the show's narrative which needs to make Jon king somehow, in practicality, this was a smart move.
I knew the minute that Jon kinda snubbed her in her room that she was going to go completely bat shit.
He was the last person she truly had. She realistically had two friends that cared about her as a person (Missandei and Jorah). She confirms that Jon has fallen out of love with her and that he too only shows her love/respect due to her power structure of being the Queen. Coupled with everything that she has gone through as well as being an incest child (which people seem to forget royally messes you up) and raised by an insane person (her brother), I don't really see why the character arc wouldn't make sense.
If people are annoyed she went from like a 6.5 cray cray to a 9 cray cray in two episodes and felt it should've been developed over a couple more episodes then sure I can agree with that. But to say this is bad writing for her character is asinine.
Oh no I totally agree with you, I'm in the camp that would be more annoyed if she maintained her composure. I guess tangentially related what's the deal with Jon backing off from her just because they're related, does his moral compass even extend to his loins? Never stopped anyone else in the show before.
Hot Taek: Wasn't a huge fan.
-They should have had Drogon die at the end of the sack of the city. They should have had Jaime ring the bells, had Dany stop, had the dragon get killed (or at least wounded) by a 'co-conspirator' of Jaime's in the brief pause, and evened the playing field in that manner. Would have been one last 'betrayal' by Jaime to try and save the city. Feel like next episode is going to require some incredibly unrealistic end for Drogon after he survives basically a giant-sized firing squad. If they have a dragon surviving at the end of the show I think it's going to ruin the ending (i.e., the throne will feel too 'secure' for it to be a satisfying ending). -Someone said Euron was a shit character and that's true, but only because they completely derailed his plot involvement (and that of all the Greyjoy's, really) from the book. This happened quite a while ago on the show, so no use crying over it now, but relevant as it relates to Euron's character. -The Jaime/Cersei arc at the end was lazy writing, I think. Would have been much better if one of them did something more remarkable than dying well. It is what it is but felt unsatisfying to me. -The Arya scenes (as usual) were badass. Thought they did a good job of the POV of war using her as the focal point. Shows you that even if you're an unbelievably good fighter, chaotic combat like that is not easy for anyone. -The Jon scenes were (again) underwhelming. I get that he has plot armor which exempts him from being exposed to certain things, but he really hasn't done anything terribly remarkable in the last couple of episodes (we thought he was going to kill the undead Viserion but then he just poofs away after NK bites it). Him having the dragon (Rhaegal) then not having the dragon is a little anticlimactic (unless he rides Drogon at the end after Dany maybe dies, which I guess would be OK). -The Hound/Mountain scene was by far my favorite. That was the only part of the plot itself that felt 'right' to me.
The cinematography was good as usual, even if the plot was lacking. As others have mentioned though, that part's been broken for a while. Entertaining episode, even if not particularly 'cerebral'.
Also, sidenote, but did anyone catch the reason why Tyrion was like 'are you a good smuggler?' to Davos? Didn't see any closure on that item, but maybe that's the point to set up for next week?
The smuggling was to get Jaime through their forces and into Kings Landing. They mentioned he was captured trying to get through the lines originally and then when Tyrion frees him we see him in the city.
Got it - I missed that; thanks!
I am rather torn about last night's episode.
Yes, Dany has shown cruelty to slave owners and people who cross her, shown frightening indifference over her brother's lethal gold crown and various other instances.
And yet, this is also the Dany that in essence "jailed" her dragon/children when they killed a goat herder's daughter and who tried to defend a captive from rape from a Doth Raki.
So while yes, the bloodlust has been there in her for a long while...for me, as a woman, I felt the writers went the lazy and ever-so-sexist trope ala "crazy ex-girlfriend" by making it seem like it was all about Jon's letting her down that snaps her into Mad Queen Dany mode and not all the cumulative noble versus batshit moves that she's pulled.
The best, most beautiful and powerful scene to me was Tyrion and Jaime...i almost cried, Tyrion saying that Jaime was the only one to never treat Tyrion like a monster.
Euron fucking annoys me...i am glad he's fucking dead, LOL. His brother Victarion from the books was a more intriguing character/storyline.
Clegane-Bowl was both a bit anti-climatic and yet appropo. Once we see Gregor free of armor, you know without question that he's truly supernatural and so Sandor will not, can not survive. Sandor was awesome til the end... kinda broke my heart that he had to go down with his brother and into the literal flames that so often marked/impacted Sandor, inside and out.
Sad to see Varys executed...one of the last sage voices...this could have been played differently, to really showcase Dany's spiral into madness...being left to her own devices as her advisors dwindle down to no one left to guide her.
Tragic to see Jon forced to realize war is war, neither side is ever truly right or wrong. Him watching Grey Worm attack after the surrender and seeing an attempted rape...makes you wonder if by default Jon will grudgingly take the throne after Dany is killed, whether it is Arya or Jon that does it.
Jaime and Cersei...irked me, but I get it. Still would have liked more exposition on why Jaime went back to her, but love is blind and all that. Wonder if Brienne is preggers?!
Overall, I did not enjoy the episode all that much. Feels like this season has been sped up and skewed. Feels like how I felt at the approaching end of Sons of Anarchy...no satisfaction, no true logic-bound conclusions. sad sigh One more episode and then it's time to hunt for another series to embrace.
There's a blog post screen capture from 2013 before GoT really "blew up" with someone breaking down Dany and why she is clearly going over the edge in the story. Martin replied to it saying "this guy gets it" so it was always going to be this way in the story.
I don't think anyone's mad/surprised that she 'went over the edge', just the way that the writing/story got her there.
I agree with a lot of InfoDominatrix's points above. The Tyrion/Jaime scene was def touching. 100% agree with Victarion, that's what I meant when I mentioned the show's mishandling of the Greyjoys.
If you like Scifi at all, The Expanse is an excellent show and has lots of written source material for the show writers to not screw up. It improves every season and now is under Amazon so a proper budget going forward hopefully.
Thanks! I'll take a peek at The Expanse. Haven't done much sci-fi/alternative reality beyond Black Mirror and Love, Death and Robots. Looking forward to the next seasons of Stranger Things [and also of Peaky Blinders].
Been trying to watch the Lost in Space reboot, but it feels uneven. Some episodes are so good and then others are completely meh.
Have to test-drive a few eps of the new Twilight Zone and I'm curious to see The Mandalorian.
I've blow through the comedies Grace and Frankie, The Kominsky Method and Santa Clarita Diet, which just got cancelled.
One other thing I forgot to bring up - did anyone else notice the green flame/wildfire cropping up all over the city? Felt like that should have gotten more attention/has some meaning that I may have missed?
There is wildfire hidden under the city that would have been ignited in a chain reaction by the dragon's fire.
But I don't think the dragon fire is combustible (i.e., it's not blowing up buildings/getting underground by itself).... So it would have to get underground before it blew up the wildfire? Nitpicky I know, but feel like that was poorly thought out.
Yeah, we spotted the green flames too and debated if it was a sort of nod to maybe how many times King's Landing has been the center of a battle. Or maybe it points to those that survived that Battle of of Blackwater Bay, which currently includes Tyrion, Davos and Pod, I don't think there's anyone else now.
With the writers now leaving a great deal unsaid in these last 2 episodes [especially after all the exposition that went on in Episode 2], these sorts of unaddressed things pop up and if nothing else, they certainly lend themselves to lots of discussion after the episode itself.
I thought this was a nod back to when Jaime told the story of how the Mad King had caches of wildfire stored underneath the streets of KL as a last minute effort to blow the city up at the end of Robert's Rebellion -I'm assuming these were never removed, and Dany effectively ended up igniting the wildfire set by her father, completing her transformation into the "Mad Queen."
None of these are really plot holes, rather a sloppy job of the writers fitting in too much in too few of episodes.
Best episode of the season but still far below the heights of 1-5/ the end of s6. It all feels too rushed. Scorpions vs. Drogon was definitely a plot hole given how effective they were against Rhaegal but whatever. Her turn to mad queen was far too abrupt in that moment... I expected she would end up the mad queen for a while now but the way it was done was rushed, as this show has been for two seasons. Cleganebowl was amazing. Euron/Jamie fight was ridiculous - what a coincidence that Euron washes up right where Jamie is! The Arya scenes were amazing. The spectacle of it all was amazing - you can tell this is the most expensive show ever produced (which will undoubtedly be surpassed by Amazon's LoTR and the GoT spinoff). We'll see how they wrap things up but I think Jon & Dany die and Sansa finds a way to the Iron Throne.
Jon kills her to become Azor Ahai and takes her dragon (that's why they got rid of Ghost).
Bran is given the throne as the male head of House Stark who will have won the war for the throne. (Note: Betting sites for Bran Stark sitting on the Iron Throne are now at 1/1)
Episode 2 was the best episode of the season. All dialogue, very smartly done, added rich context to every character. Of course it was wasted in Ep 3/4/5 but as a standalone concept, and at the time, I really thought the season was turning a corner.
I agree but because of the way the season turn out I can't appreciate episode 2 anymore. It was very good and the best of the season 100% if episode 3 wasn't released.
Episode 2's dialogue was strong but there was no epicness. Can't be the best episode of the season sry.
John and the Northerners will fight Dany and her gang. Then Arya will kill Dany. Boom.
Grading the episode by character:
Varys: [B+] Feels like he got too brash / out of character. Would rather have him be outsmarted while playing his A game. Death scene was cool though, and his exchange with Tyrion was memorable and fitting
Tyrion: [C-] Betrays Varys, to save the people of King's landing and put a good ruler on the throne. Neither of which happen. He also frees Jaime which everyone will be aware of next episode. Continues to make bad decisions. Sucks to see his character dragged through the mud. Only redeemed this episode by his emotional words with Jaime which I felt were A+ dialogue level.
Jaime: [F-] Torn on this but I'm going with my gut. My favorite character arc smashed to bits. I would rather him ride off with the big woman and complete his arc and shed some tears when he learned of Cersei's death in Ep 6. Everyone expecting him to go back and murder Cersei I guess would also be expecting him to murder his baby? That never made sense to me and especially within the episode Cersei really was protecting the innocents while Dany was murdering everyone, so it would have looked weird for him to execute Cersei, when it wouldn't prevent any bloodshed. Killing Euron was ok, I would have rather had him not be mortally wounded when he chose to stay with Cersei and die if that's the route they were going to go. Would have given more hope (he could have been trying to burrow out or something). He was taught to fight by Bronn and it would have been good to see some "dirty tricks" played against Euron and have Jaime redeem himself as a fighter.
Euron f I understand why he met Jaime (he was going to the Red Keep via the secret entrance, which is the same reason Jaime was there). That being said, would have been more in character for him to steal the skiff and sail away to protect his own hide, while maybe a falling piece of the Red Keep kills him anyway. Would be a clownish end to a clownish TV character.
Grey Worm f He avenges Missandei by killing the Golden Company leader but then murders innocent women/children with his forces. Wow, really doesn't make sense. Unsullied were chosen because they were professional but then that happens. What the eff. Would have liked to see Jon kill Grey Worm after that, have Dany see that happening out of context, and then that become the reason Dany goes Mad Queen (she thinks Jon is usurping or something).
Cersei [B+] Comes off the whole episode as sympathetic. Doesn't actually do anything bad against any innocents. Amazing acting. In character for her to be in denial but I thought she might have had some tricks up her sleeve.
Qyburn a Great advisor, loyal to the end, death was perfect GoT style, sudden brutal, fitting with his arc as killed by his creation.
Sandor a Very glad he didn't kill Cersei. Cleganebowl didn't need to "matter" beyond itself, I don't know why people were disappointed there weren't more stakes. It wasn't about that to either of them. Glad it was just the two of them, and the sacrifice play in fire was well done. Point docked for the Mountain using the eye gouge move which took a quarter second for Oberyn's head to explode, felt like that lasted a few ticks too long for the Hound. Felt like a cheap emotional play for me to think Hound's head was going to explode.
Arya [A+] All y'all (not WSO, but entire internet) would have complained if Arya killed both the Night King and Cersei, and I am so glad that she didn't so I didn't have to exclusively listen about the OP assassin Macguffin Mary Sue with no flaws. Glad that Sandor talked sense into her; clearly Cersei was going to die anyway and no use for Arya to needlessly sacrifice herself. Seeing episode from her POV was great, the only POV that I would have greatly preferred, though, would have been Davos as he really is kind of helpless and watching him watch children burn to death in his arms would have been very very emotional and way more impactful.
Jon D He knew the right thing to do and didn't do it. Maybe he will next episode. Hate his silence watching Varys die, watching Dany burn the city (not even a "Dany, nooo, what are you doing?"). Wanted him to kill Grey Worm who has no purpose anymore after Missandei is dead.
Sansa [A+] Told you so points, playing the game the best, I am not mad at her for telling Tyrion because Dany was clearly already crazy by episode 2 and wasn't going to let the North govern itself.
Dany [Expelled] Forget morality. Killing everyone in KL is not even good strategy or tactics. She's going to have to do that in every city in the realm (which might be the direction she suggests next episode) and by then, wait, what was the reason she was ruling again? If she wants lasting peace she needs to set up a peaceful succession and governance, which she can't guarantee if she rules like a dictator, no matter how benevolent a dictator. She could have ruled through fear by burning the Red Keep with Cersei in it after the bells rang, and maybe the Red Keep falls down and kills innocent lives to which she could have been callous and say that's the casualty of war, which would have made her a "Mad Queen Lite" and kept everyone definitely on edge. But the scene that broke me was Cersei watching Dany waaaaay off in the distance, not heading for the Red Keep, but strafing laterally across every single block to make sure she killed all the innocents. That's not even rage, rage would have led her straight to Cersei which she was looking at when the bells tolled. I don't get this part of her character arc and she should have been killing more innocent people beforehand to make this make sense (such as her dragon burning Northmen at Winterfell as a casualty while also fighting the dead and her not caring when Sansa/Jon call her out, etc.) Yeah this is not what Jorah Mormont would have wanted.
Overall rating: What the Eff?!
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Jamie's entire character arc got thrown out the window.
The things D&D do for love
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