Just wanted to get this off my chest. I am deeply concerned about the direction of the western world and specifically the country where I have grown up for a majority of my life- the US.
For the past decade or so, there has been an ever increasing amount of attention on things that divide us- whether that's sex, race, or socioeconomic status. It's disappointing to see everything becoming incredibly politicized- the biggest culprit is the plague of identity politics- dividing people based on categories or characteristics that are secondary to our individual personalities- which leads to an ugly form of tribalism. We should spend less time on what makes us different and more on what we have in common. We should celebrate our freedoms and the miracle that democracy and the ideals of the western world (freedom of speech, open discourse, etc.) and where that has brought us to as a society- it is truly incredible when you think about it.
This is not to say that a society mustn't constantly improve, but what I take issue with is the hatred that both sides show to one another. We should embrace individual responsibility as that will ultimately raise the tide of progress and bring us all up as a people. We should stop focusing on black vs white, men vs women, or how many people are in X job, Y profession, etc. We should work towards informing both sexes and every race of every opportunity available and not cherry pick who should get what job or set arbitrary guidelines. I can see the great resentment that this builds on the side of those who are necessarily systematically disadvantaged by such policies/programs.
Equal opportunity is the most egalitarian and fair ideal to which we should strive to attain as a society- NOT equal outcome- as going down that path will fuel hatred, and resentment on both sides which is neither productive nor equal (by definition).
Women and men should have every opportunity to succeed in whatever they please and they should not be told what to do- I am disgusted to see some of my female friends who are interested in having children being called "breeders"- I am equally disgusted by men making fun of other men for wanting to stay at home with their families because they are not "masculine" enough to work a demanding job.
The issue is that when we let both sexes decide what they want to do they may be interested in different careers to a certain degree leading to differences in outcome- and what's wrong with that if they are truly satisfied and happy with what they are doing.
Anyway this rant comes at a time when I see growing resentment towards this horrible form of tribalism that has been growing. I tried to keep this apolitical because I think these problems are on the individual level and not the political. I think these ideas are fair and actionable.
This a 100 times.
I do think that politicians (not all, but certainly enough) aggravate the situation by taking advantage of it. It doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum, they all do it. It's disgusting that there are people who take advantage of the entire nation just to gain power for couple years.
It wins votes to encourage further division. Once it makes money to do so, the media starts to do the exact same.
All this has been gradually eliminating civility in people, which to me is the very beginning of the decline of the West. I have my own theory about this: Civil decay -> Political decay -> Intellectual Decay -> Economic Decay.
We're facing a civil decay. If the quality of the people declines, then eventually would the quality of the politicians (since we vote them in). It looks like we're at an inflection point that might make or break the incipient political decay. With political decay, terrible legislation would be enacted that prevents businesses, academics, and great individuals to do what they do best. Good ideas will be rejected and suppressed. Then comes the intellectual decay, as the smart ones and ones with leadership will flee the country or remain unable to make impact. Once this happens enough, then a society loses its competitiveness, which leads to economic decay.
In summary, unless we do something to stop this identity-politics and equality of outcome nonsense, we're all FUCKED.
I agree, also the political is already starting in Canada where they are legislating and making into law compelled speech regulations that are antithetical to freedom of speech- they are stripping people of their individual autonomy and ability to reach sound conclusions and speak to them- this is one of the first times if not the only case this has happened in common law history- it will only get worse unless there are enough proponents for free speech.
These types of regulations will erode the ability of people to think critically, and then discourse will be meaningless if you are not allowed to express yourself- leading to the downfall of the western world and back to tribalism that existed long before the Greeks (albeit this is hyperbolic but directionally correct in theory) .
Good thing we'll hopefully all be dead by the time intellectual decay takes hold of anything substantial
edit: "we" as in the so-called "smart" people of the world
I don't think we'll be all dead by the time intellectual decay happens. But thanks to certain good systems that have been established, it'll take couple decades. My guess is that it'll be like 2050 when things start to show. I say that because that's when all the teens and young adults, primary believers of ridiculois and dangerous ideals will be the next leaders.
Imagine having a SJW who wants 90% income tax and huge wealth tax as the CEO of Goldman Sachs. That is if Goldman Sachs even exists then.
I agree with you completely. Although I think some answers can be stemmed from biology. How can we expect ~350MM humans to be part of one tribe? The truth is, if we truly deeply empathized With every human, we’d be so depressed because of all the wrong in the world. We can care, but not “feel the pain” of others at this scale.
It really surprises me that we keep growing and expect things to not be broken down into small tribes. I’m not sure if there’s a solution to that, people just love to be categorized for some reason.
What is worrying is the “us vs them” mentality that there’s a constant “war” going on. Also, I think Americans REALLY take for granted how good we have it. Not to say that we shouldn’t improve, its healthy to want better. But we’re really soft as a country.
Couldn't agree more.
When I think "tribalism" and "us vs. them", I think people unwilling to listen to one another and fighting over nothing without a good reason. Tribalism, to me, is about "I don't like you because you're different/have different opinions. I don't even want to listen to your rationale". Stubbornness, hatred, and bias are words that I associate with tribalism. Just to point some examples outside of the West - it makes no sense to me why the Sunnis and Shiite hate each other so much; it still puzzles me why Europeans fought countless wars over Protestantism vs Catholicism; it still puzzles me why it took so long for Arabs to get over petty tribalism and unite as one country in Saudi Arabia, etc...
Difference in opinions is good for a society, but only when people can have constructive debates. Best thing about a democratic society is that people are allowed to have different opinions and views. But democracy only works if people can - 1)remain civil and respectful of other opinions, 2) use critical thinking to assess beliefs of their own and others, and 3) actually listen to different opinions.
I feel like the West is regressing - instead of uniting, it's going back to more primitive tribal society. Sooner or later, the US in particular, might as well as be the new Papua New Guinea.
Great take here, but the only edit i’d make is putting intellectual decay. The ascendancy of post modernism and its eschewing of reason has removed any kind of common reference point. without this common reference point, only might can make right.
Divide and conquer 101
Keep the dumb (as in low IQ) voters brainwashed and mad at the “other guy”
Great summary of most of my views on this issue. The scary thing is that calling out tribalism can get someone “cancelled” now
I agree, I am sick and tired of this tribalistic culture and where its heading. Many people think this way but are unable to speak up for fear of getting ostracized.
OP - Just writing "All Lives Matter" instead of this post could have saved you a lot of time.
I disagree, on the basis that this issue is more nuanced than a platitude, especially one that is a sort of quasi-counter to a controversial political movement, namely, BLM.
Since I am trying to keep this apolitical, such statements like "All Lives Matter" is not really relevant, this is furthered by the fact that I am not discussing whether human lives are important, instead I am trying to bring to light the power of the individual and how responsibility on the micro level is what progresses society- as opposed to forming groups like white vs black which only divides us as a people.
Thanks for your input though
And my argument would be that we have a long way to go before we have "equal opportunity" in this country. Until two days ago, you could be fired from your job simply for who you love, and it should be fairly obvious to everyone after the last few weeks that many minorities have a vastly different experience with law enforcement and the judicial system in this country than do white people.
I love how you unironically reply to a post criticizing tribalism and the lack of nuance in our discourse by accusing the OP of being part of the “wrong” tribe.
Doubly interesting because the tribe you put him in - “all lives matter” - is in and of itself some ridiculously watered down slogan meant to prey on the base emotions of its “enemy” tribe: “black lives matter”. Which is, of course, also a ridiculously watered slogan meant to prey on emotion.
lmao
He wrote a bunch of fancy words to say he doesn't support affirmative action. And yes, my response to that was dismissive and generalized on purpose, thank you.
It is hardly non political, as you have clearly implied views against affirmative action and helping people via social programs, In an indirect way, you threw in some family values as well.
Not trying to call you out, but the fact that your response to this is that it is political is exactly what I addressed as an issue in society- that everything is getting too politicized.
I genuinely believe politics should have nothing to do with this- politics are only involved when those who want to further their own goals use the legislature to enforce them on others.
I am trying to take a different approach and highlight the incredible qualities that each individual has- man/woman/black/white/ whatever. I am saying we should celebrate our similarities and differences (to the extent they exist) and have a society that promotes the best in each of us to come out so we can all contribute and improve the country. It is scary with the amount of tribalism in our society, which does nothing but push people away from each other.
I appreciate your comment.
You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.
Trust me, you cannot manufacture equal outcome. Expanding the workplace to account for very real differences, especially cultural differences, is a real thing.
I think the tribalism happens because people don’t want to believe they control their own destiny. If you make it all about the system then you don’t have to confront your own choices and mistakes.
When I was 17 and getting private ACT tutor sessions, my public high school basketball teammate got abandoned by his single mother, bounced around to three foster homes, and started living on his own. He later went to prison twice and only now seems to be getting his life together at 35 making a fraction of the money that 22 year olds on this site see cause Daddy got them an internship.
GTFOH with “everyone controls their own destiny”. Some of you guys have no idea how the other half lives.
Everyone is in control of their own destiny- this does NOT mean that circumstances and ability are distributed fairly or equally throughout people to begin with.
Take the most important determinant of how well your life will go: where you are born in the world. This is something nobody has control over; however, each person should take it upon themselves to better themselves to get to the best possible state of existence that they can.
I appreciate that you brought up that example of the kid who was abandoned by his single mother. This person was born into an unfortunate circumstance- there is no question about it- however this should not mean that personal responsibility does not apply. You just said he got his life together- that is remarkable- do you know how many people cannot even make it through half of what that person probably went through? He must have an incredible resolve to pull himself out of the depths of misery he found himself entrenched in.
The only reason I am responding to this is because I think that the principles of personal responsibility can never fade away or be overlooked. It is the bedrock of western civilization. This man who you described has lived a life where now he can have his own family and stay there as a father to his kids and teach them what he went through and how he persevered. That's an incredible and profound story and one which will change the direction of his kid's futures.
Again, everyone is born into different circumstances, and we must make the best of it.
Are you somehow asserting that ending up in prison two times was justified because his mother abandoned him? As someone who grew up in the foster system since the summer of eight grade, I think you're off base with your entire comment. Just because we experienced trauma at an earlier stage in life does not mean we lose our sense of reason, or right or wrong. I don't know exactly what your friend did, but it certainly wasn't a single mistake, instead, a series of poor decisions, each one with a chance to say no. Being the "other half" that you're talking about, we have decision-making rationale, we also have values. Maybe some people let their emotions override them, but don't for a second think that we're living the rest of our lives unconsciously.
I didn’t say 100% of what happens in life is controllable. I’m just saying that viewing the world as a battle between “their way” and “our way” is a convenient way of not confronting your own decisions.
Giving the underpriveleged extra help in the form of race-based lower standards in schools and jobs just fucks over every single white and asian kid, especially those who come from equally poor backgrounds. As someone who comes from a pretty fucked up background and is a white male, I think affirmative action etc. is absolutely fucking disgusting.
Yes, problems like the ones you describe apply to poor people in general, not just poor blacks. And no one said that life is fair. But at a certain point, people have to accept personal responsibiity since we have free agency.
While I agree with the gist of what you are saying, this kind of thinking comes off as less than desirable. I am closer to your teammate than you, no presents at Christmas/birthdays and still managed to do relatively well for myself. The idea that the elite of the world need to lift up those you see as "the other half" is a little demeaning.
Your life is a result of the choices you make. I guess I need to state the obvious here that those who have had it easy have a higher propensity for 'success' but I mean what is the plan there? To stop that from happening? If your friend chose to not commit crimes, work hard in school, etc his life would have been different.
There are more opportunites now than ever for what you describe as "the other half." But thanks for the concern.
Do you realize how difficult it is for some people to control their own destiny?
Everyone is starting with different set of cards. This reminds of when a prospective student asks me the following: how many hours of tutoring would I need to pass the exam? To which I normally respond, I have no way of knowing at this point because I do not know your background nor do I know how easily you pick up concepts. The circumstances for one person could be entirely different from those of the next person.
I didn’t say everyone started with the same set of cards. The reality is, some large portion of life is controllable. Maybe you think it’s 30% or maybe you think it’s 70%. Regardless, it’s a meaningful chunk.
what if this is framed as everyone has the capacity to minimize the burden they are on society, and the moral obligation to positively seed growth and help onto others and create as much value as they can?
the fucking beauty of this country is that you can choose to eat a donut, stay up late watching tv, not do your homework or study longer, do more pushups etc. Things are an active choice of no and others a passive no. Either way people have the capacity to control these things which determines their outcome by how others see value in them.
additionally, for the other poster: the kid was a child to a single mother. a deadbeat dad who left the family: bad decision. mom left him: bad decision. not the kids decisions, sure but bad decisions made by someone else. he was given the opportunity to go in a foster home right? it’s tough, but that’s not an excuse for crime. it just makes it harder to WANT to be good for yourself (having been here in this low) that you don’t even care about anything etc. that situation sucks but it’s from a lack of personal responsibility? if there was no entitlement then there’d be much less struggle- some areas really have poverty, but it’s poverty with a car smartphone and other luxuries.
but what are we supposed to do? enable the system? fund and incentivize single parenthood with no proper structure? people aren’t always accountable for their actions, and it disproportionally affects people who they should have been responsible to. but an invisible hand of government can’t step in and enable off of the backs of people who chose to make good decisions. the government shouldn’t be the benevolent god— people in the community, etc. should be. wealthy people need to take that agency and not waste it and should be socially compelled.
[Edit: But it's not that people are against helping. I'd be "for" universal income over the shitty welfare programs we have now. But it's NEVER enough and people will politicize it and use it to get more votes-- aka you "need" more money from UBI, free programs, etc even if everyone has a beachfront property. No one likes the government because of people who aren't genuine who promise other people's things to better themselves through government and it ruins everything. I hate that it's not even a hidden thing or uncommon for many politicians to be that self serving]
However, in this country I would rather preserve the capacity for a homeless person to be a billionaire and have that proper incentive there for them to change the world than give people things because they exist. it’s a hard life but let’s be real clear that America is the best country on the planet so long as it doesn’t guarantee minimum outcomes on a federal level. State and local initiatives I’m ok with because there’s competition within states.
We all control our own destiny but the most accurate indicator of future income status is your parent's income status.... ok bro.
Akshualllly, many longitudinal studies have shown that the biggest indicator of social mobility is IQ, regardless of where you are born in life, but apparently it’s blasphemy to say such things.
That's ok man, whatever you have to tell yourself. Excuses are globally accepted currency.
You can't control the cards you are given, but you can control how you play them.
Greed plays a role in all this too
idk about greed but maybe entitlement and a mismatch of expectations on what is deserved, what needs to be done to deserve that, etc.
I think people who are wealthy should absolutely be compelled to help others. But that’s why it’s seen as horrible not to. there is an expectation to help because they have the capacity. but being compelled by the government to, and the government taking that benefactor role of deciding who deserves what at the cost of other people is uncomfortable. at the federal level at least.
Wealthy people are welfare recipients.
Corporate subsidies that inflate equity prices, tax loopholes that allow billionaires to pay a lower effective tax rate than I do, the capital gains tax system that allows PE principals to be taxed at ~20% while I'm taxed at ~40% for example, the Fed inflating asset prices (most of which are owned by the wealthy) through repeated monetary stimulus.
Look at the markets, they are completely disconnected from the economy as a result of Fed manipulation. The rich benefit from that massively. You could argue they've received far more stimulus money than the $1200 check average joe's received and that's not even accounting for the business bailouts.
Meanwhile housing and healthcare prices skyrocket with no end in sight - partially due to the Fed printing money.
And when inflation/the deficit blow up, it'll be average joe's that suffer.
You all keep believing it's the poor/middle class that are too entitled though.
MS x 1000 for whoever threw MS at this.
I’m going to throw a MS at u !
I might just throw at MS you for saying "whoever" not whomever. JK.
No you didn't
haha I'd agree honestly. In theory, if much of society decides to label something with X characterstics Y, and something with A characteristics B, well you can describe X and A characteristics and say you're not talking about Y or B all you want. People will just jump to seeing Y or B regardless.
Which there's definitely an implied point we all agree on that simply stating points shouldn't mean jumping to extremes of "you're an SJW" or "you're a racist", but if people describe the characteristics of something so socialized to mean something specific, it's pretty hard to say it isn't that. By nature of so many people making it out to be, it simply is and that's how society/ definitions work in practice.
But sites like this should amplify the abstraction and ability to be abstract, less personal, etc. and seeing people talk on old talk shows makes people think everyone was more respectful regardless of opinion, in general then. Which is probably true. we are too sensationalized and have too short attention spans now for that
White people have been tribal for forever - mostly against everyone else and alot of the time against themselves. But now ppl are fighting for acknowledgement and equality the tribalism is growing and "scary". Lol - this is "all lives matter" bullshit. OP has the nerve to call BLM "controversial". What's controversial about people protesting police brutality which disproportionately affects poor and black ppl? Where was this post during the Charlotteville march? People will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to basically maintain the status quo as long as it benefits them.
It’s a dangerous game you’re playing here.
To stop fighting for equality out of fear of backlash is to live life in fear and submission.
This already happened in 2016. You are quite right that the consequences have been terrible.
Yes, only “white people” have been “tribal forever”.
Please read a book on any world history (yes it can be as vague as “world history” because your basic understanding of this topic is so low that any text will help you here).
Again, this is another comment that immediately jumps into the exact point the OP was criticizing - I mean imagine making such a blanket statement as “white people have been tribal forever” and missing the irony.
Let me clarify, white people in the U.S. have been tribal to the detriment of non-whites and sometimes themselves for forever. And when people fight for equality in the U.S. it is looked at as "too tribal". The push back is the same in every era. And honestly dude you're one of the posters that I don't waste my time interacting with so that's all I have to say to you on the matter.
How did Italians / Irish / other low-class white people in the early 20th century deal with prejudice towards them from the more British/American/Protestant folks at that time?
Also, are there any other examples of groups of people who are / were targeted in society getting out of that social stigma?
I find it interesting how some groups rise in social classes / systems over time. For example, how have Africans been assimilated or not into French society/culture? Turkish people in Germany?
I think this idea of tribalism has grown 10 fold in the states and spread to other western nations. Some of politicians and others have this zeal for nationalism that in itself creates a disease and hatred for others. I have witnessed this tribalism in my previous workplace and it spread and eventually I had 3 to 4 people foaming at the mouth all because of one person.
We as a nation need to pull together and make sure we return to a place that is normal before it spirals. As history shows the further it goes the nation’s disappear and become an after thought.
Time is short but I hope good people prevail over those who press for division and cause oppression.
Festival girls -- you know the ones that go to music festivals are part of a tribe.
Liberals in the academia forced a demographic change in Western societies so that they could turn them into a gigantic United Nations style laboratory.
Now the lab is blowing up. Who's the to blame? The scientists of course.
Behold, one of WSO's leading conservatives. And people wonder why the country continues marching Left.
Behold, the dude who was a Republican until Trump and believes that Republican party never had issues with racism before that (LMAO!).
Then converted to the cult of wokedom, which data at hand is the most hateful and intolerant in the Western world (LMAO part 2).
Finally, he's so happy with his life that he chases me around this forum, begging for some sort of interaction (TRIPLE LMAO).
I'll go back to ignoring you now. There's a basic rule for discussions: you never debate with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
ooga booga
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