GS firing US employees while hiring in Singapore
Has anyone heard about this?
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yeah that sucks
Economics 101.
make sense to me...fire fat lazy Americans with high healthcare costs so you can hire hardworking Asians in a growth market.
the actual sad part in all of this is that they felt they needed to give the Gov't the heads up - almost as redic as the whole NLRB/Boeing drama
This is hilarious, my non-US counterparts are so fucking lazy it blows my mind. Everytime I get one of those global blast emails from analysts digging for slides that they've put off to the last minute it's from a foriegn , non-US analysts. Too lazy to do their own fucking work. My MD would hang me by my ballsack if I did that shit. Take a lap sport.
Lol, make sure you do all the pres work, spread all the comps and make all the profiles. Please do not outsource any of those to India. These are all your fucking work.
Stringer Bell, I've heard HK analysts can run laps around their NY counterparts: more all-nighters, longer hours, more traveling, etc.
I heard you're a little bitch. USA! USA! USA!
Charlie Gasparino is rarely a good source...
oh yeah on average asians can do a lot of work efficiently. They are really about doing efficient work but take them out of their neat little sponge bob square pants room and they are like fish out of water. Please know that i said on AVERAGE not all asians are that way but most are in my experience.
Its hard for them to think out of the box because they haved lived under govnt rule for thousands of years. You just cant change that mentality over night.
While I tend to agree, this is all the more reason for firms like GS to move a lot of the workforce overseas. Innovation as an IB analyst or S&T trading assisting is not exactly their job. The top talent will be those who rise above the rest, which will be a lot of Americans and Europeans and generally the sociable, outgoing, innovative people- who exist in Asia as well. Authoritarianism and their history (Confucianism, colonialism, etc.) has bred a culture of less innovation and less risk taking than in America, but IB is a very low risk job as it is. And at the level that many of these jobs are being shuffled is economics....a workhorse in Asia can pump out similar shit that those in America can- but at a far less cost in salary and benefits.
I do not agree that Asians are not sociable, Outgoing and innovative. Many of great initiative has taken by Asians . You can find many Asians working in US, UK and other European Countries... But i can't find any of US, UK and other European people working in Asia. Because People are their are not sociable, Outgoing. For justigy this reasons you can say many thing like why we go out some thing shitty.
I'm sorry, but please learn to speak English before you rely. I meant as a culture, they are more inclined toward safer, and less innovative route. A great example of this would be their traditional music where musicians are known to repat the same styles ond chord progressions over and over again and musicians are chastised to move beyond the boundaries that have been set before. Read Yellow Music by Andrew Jones for a good view on this. I did not say that every Chinese was not innovative- but if you look at it now, China has not innovated in the last 20 years- its growth is simply because they subjugate their workers and export cheap, inferior products. There's a reason that their "greatness" is coming now and not earlier- it is because they have all the work that Western nations have built from the late 19th Century onwards.
I do think Asian-Americans, or ones brought up in Hong Kong are different, and obviously not everyone fits the bill. But overall it is a fitting stereotype. I am so sick of people saying China is so innovative, when all they do is take American and Japanese products and replicate them cheaply and more often than not, inferior.
Also, are you aware of what the words sociable and outgoing mean? You don't have to be sociable to move somewhere to work. The reason I don't move to Asia (there than the language barrier- I commend those who do move) is because of the authoritarian governments, the shitty quality of life, the horrendous air quality, being far away from my family/friends, and similar or less opportunities there than domestically. I respect those who can move to a different country where they barely speak the language (like you obviously) but that has nothing at all to do with sociability. If anything, I would be less inclined to be sociable/go out because I didn't speak the language. You may be different, I don't know.
Also, I never said that Asian were unsociable, I think being uninterested in certain aspects of American culture is different than unsociability. A lot of Asians are socially awkward, but so are a lot of white people. I said that Asian culture has developed from what was once the most innovative culture in the world to one that has been subjugated by colonialism and then communism/authoritarianism. No one can truly thrive under the thumb of the government, and it would be easy to see if #1. China was truly Communist and compensated their workers fairly #2. They didn't have 1bn+ people to compete for jobs
What "invention" as come out of China lately...nothing. Honestly nothing. There are so too many Asians on here and in America that retan too much pride in their birth country. I am Scottish, English, and Native American, but I identify as an American. I can never tell if my Asian friend's acquaintances are truly offended or not when I ask if they are from China ad they indignantly reply "Korea". Country based racism seems to exist more in the Hispanic and Asian communities than anywhere else, and I am consistently baffled by it.
I am wiling to say that America is not going in the right direction as of now. We have given China a competitive advantage with wages, environmentalism, etc. and are losing grond because of it. Now, why can't you just accept that China isn't an innovation powerhouse. Chinese and other Asians in America are... but far from the oppressive nature of the Chinese government. None of this is against an ethnicity, but the countries and the ideals and culture that they foster.
I'm sorry I would just like to put my two cents on this comment (abridged for relevance):
Believe me, I've lived in all three cities. Hong Kong has a perfect transportation system, no crime, 15% max tax rate, and is giving the equivalent of 700 US dollars to each resident just like that, because it ran an approximately 10 billion USD surplus in the last Fiscal Year. One look at the situation in the UK or the US is just depressing.
Yes, we do not have a perfect democracy (although free elections, of a sort, are to be held in 2017), but Hong Kong is doing pretty damn well without it.
Singapore, while a good prospect, does not hold a candle to Hong Kong. Singapore's specialty is the area around it, i.e South East Asia. Hong Kong has China, but also is in many ways the link between China and the West as we all know, that much is obvious. Hong Kong will grow as long as China is to grow, and that will be for a while until China reaches its true capacity that it has been prevented from attaining for so long due to the revolution, corruption, lack of urbanisation. At some point, China will reach its capacity (or close to it) and then that's when innovation is really important, and where the US may have a lead again. That being said, China still has a long, long way to go, and still time to work on it's education systems and governance to encourage innovation, although India's current focus on services may have provided it with an all important headstart.
Yes, the people in finance here are mostly foreign born/brought up or rich locals who went to boarding school or university (or often both). It's imperative that one's English is top-notch and it's really only these people who can provide it. In the case of the latter people, even then many people do not take the opportunity to learn English in full and instead hang out with other Chinese. However, Westerners really cannot compete with a guy who's fluent in Cantonese, Mandarin, and English, went to an Ivy/target and is dedicated to finance. And yes, these people are very rich - a few of them billionaires (though the billionaire children don't want to go into finance most of the time...I guess why should they?). It's mostly the upper-middle/middle class who go into finance in the end, as it is like in the States/UK oftentimes.
Couldn't agree more with this statement. Even if an analyst/associate makes it to HK/China with 0 knowledge of Mandarin, he/she will be competing for a promotion with very smart Asians who are fluent in English+Mandarin AND have connections.
Average Chinese student cannot get a job in IB in China/Hong Kong. Chinese students who get into banking are far far far above average. Typically they belong to two groups:
I've partied with a few people from the 2nd group in China, and they are just as social, open minded, and entrepreneurial as we are. They also happen to have very very rich parents. Seeing 21/22 year SAs/Analysts buying $500-$1500 bottles several times in one night was mind blowing.
In London the yellow kids spent £5000 per night. But they get no hot chicks, so they´ll help themselves investing the money in brothels.
80% of all Asians do not live this lifestyle, cause they´ve got no rich parents (HNWI). The most asians are well educated, passionate workers and friendly human beings. A lot more endurable than their white colleagues.
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Will this have much of an effect on the IBD Analyst level?
Not surprised. It won't hurt the guys at the top, so why should they care? They'll just give some cash to PBS to show how good their values are and that will be that.
I think there is a difference between Asians and South Asians. Every fucking Indian banker that I've met has been on top of his shit. Either way, Asians in general (South and East Asians) are smart as fuck.
Yo stringer... while this maybe true..(which it is) the French are the by far the worst.
I also hear the HK analyst are just treated like dogs.
Fck IB go to S&T.......none of that gossip B.S in S&T like there is in IB its all a bunch of hacks who have nothing else to do then gossop......
On a side note, never work for a women....lunatics... no rational thought process what so ever
I hate the paper work, excel and all the other shit. I remember an analyst who put a dictaphone into a teddy and you heard always: Eat Paper, Eat Paper...
Does it make sense, the analyst work ?!
If they are trying to remove low level front office jobs I think it's a terrible idea and very short sided. The majority of the work that a US based investment bank does is for US based clients. US clients will want local US bankers. Analysts not only serve as the work horses but also as the training ground of future leaders within the bank. You can't have great VPs or MDs that weren't brought up in the system. You need large Analyst classes because of the high attrition.
If this trend is real I can see it have negative repercussions in the next 5-15 years with a talent gap at the VP/MD level.
Future growth is not in the US barring some revolutionary economic and political change.
I know this...
But the environment at universities changed, they´ve got training programs for traders to practice.
Its Bureaucracy, paper work. An analyst who left a london based IB, said he learned there nothing new, but in 3 months at HSBC he get insights...
Personally I think the difference between NYC and London is the diversity in the interpretation of IB. The american way is to rotate to reach higher earnings, the european way is more calm and dedicated. Okay, I´m not talking of the special guys working for GS and MS, who never would leave their firms, the "patriots" of wall street.
The american way:
Analyst->Associate->Rotate-> ²nd Associate->Rotate->VP-Change branche->EVP->MD Analyst->Associate->fired->taxi driver
In London you stay at your bank, I can speak for CSFB and DB. IB is like the military, they´re normal soldiers, specialists, medics, electronics, scientists and of course special forces lead by a supreme command. You have to know every soldier in detail when you will gain a victory...
The class of analysts can be replaced by better educated and trained people. Excel and sheet work can be done by computers. There is no need of it. Before university I did this work at school and in my analyst years I thought every time, it´s like your school life, you don´t like it, but you´re getting fucked up when you fail. Wasting you´re time doing minor thins, often useless.
That is obvious. However, I'm pretty sure the 1000 jobs that are being sacked at home and sent over seas are not working on emerging market deals. I'd imagine they are working on US based deals with US based clients. Its one thing to open up a foreign office for local demands, its another thing to have foreigners working on US based deals.
Disagree... while they might do some US jobs, they probably are mostly doing Asian deals. Singapore makes a good hub and moving a huge amount of staff to a location where the timezones are out by 12 hours is a bad idea if you expect them to work with any sort of efficiency... obviously.
Personlly, I think this is just one more domino in the lineup that is shifting world interest and markets away from the U.S. (and perhaps north America as a whole) to Asia... Thing is, the U.S. still has the knowledge, power, and means to hold its title if it so wishes...
I agree with ke18sb.....
I think the move is short sighted and has more to do with protesting additional capital requirements than it does with economics. Laying off a bunch of people in the U.S and hiring 1,000 more in Singapore doesn't make sense in my opinion. A lot of deals Singapore will work on will be for US based clients who need people on the ground in the US and China. Wouldn't 1,000+ people in Singapore require support in the US? Does anyone know exactly how many people Goldman plans to cut?
I think Goldman is just chasing the Asian growth. I cannot imagine more cuts on the advisory side: the US teams are already lean after 29 rounds of layoffs that took place in the last 3 years. If anything, BBs need to butcher their offices in London where bankers don't work as many hours.
V RexAlpha V You're funny, haha
London is becoming the No. 1 finance place in the world within the next years. London leads in FX(Swap rates etc.) and energies. Forget NYMEX, Oil in the future will be physically traded in Geneva and hedged in London.
There´s also the structure which is needed:
ICAP Tullett Prebon
Good atmosphere: FSA, not the strict SEC
Well educated young graduates from LSE, HEC, INSEAD and St. Gallen
The main act/theme of the 21. century seems to be the downfall and collapse of the USA, the only financial and military superpower of the world.
Here i fixed it.
London is NOT the financial capital of the world, it lost that in 1900-10. Just like NYC is losing it 2000-2010. The new financial capital of the world will be Shanghai/Beijing, Hong Kong or Singapore
learn it live it love it
The ongoing over-rating of PR China doesnt suprise me, but trust me, Hong Kong or Singapore (obviously not) will never lead.
You have clearly no insights in capital market structures. How do you think China will replace EUR/USD or USD/JPY in FX (Interest Rate Swaps) ?
There is simply no structure and the communists in china aren´t that kind of opened to free enterprise...
China is not that attractive:
*Instable housing and lending market, real estate bubbles in mainland china *Inequalities within chinese capital markets, chinese financial authorities do regulate without permission, just when they think it could be necessary *Also the global private wealth plays a great, $57 trillion of $120 trillion are held in the USA, about 3-5 billion $ are held in mainland china (no HK). To become the No1 financial market place of the world China must heavily attract investors and institutions...
Travel to HK and then to Peking or Guangzhou, you´ll see the difference.
Etc.
Ah yes the English were saying the same thing in 1900 and they didnt even realize that the world was changing. Those communists are some of the best capitalists in the world :)
You seem to forget that up until 400 years ago the largest economy in the world was in China. At the turn of the first millenium the Song dynasty ruled over all of china etc and they had shipscarrying 1000 men for commerce all around asia.
You just dont study history. You have all the blinders on in the world. It is a statistical anamoly in the last 400-500 years that western nations have had the largest economies.
The one thing I do know is that change happens, at one point Rome was the largest empire in the world, then it fell, at one point the Mongols ruled over the largest stretch of land ever and it failed. England at one point was the greatest power in the world and it fell, the Spanish Hapsburg society was the largest most powerful empire in the world and was responsible for making a little city in Bolivia named Potosi the 5th largest/richest city in the world at one time but it fell.
Most of us dont want to believe it but the same thing will happen to the US but it will most likely look like England, still relevant but not the place to be.
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
If something changes, one of the BRIC countries can have the new financial "capital" simply because more and more work will be being done there- whether due to outsourcing or growth. I remember a few years back everyone was talking about London...the financial crisis saw to the end of that. It's hard to move the status quo, and now it seems like technology is making everything more and more decentralized. You don't need to be right down the street now, and in the future I think that the value of in person work will be less and less. The notion of a physical finance "capital" may be destroyed. Until then, I can't see it moving overseas simply because of the inertia holding it in NY. Asians may love the notion of the rise of yellow finance, but the truth is Asian hasn't really proven itself yet. China is starting to have a real crisis with inflation now and can't handle it, fraudcaps are exploding, and government unrest is starting to take root. There is a great deal of expansion to be done overseas, but the markets do not revolve around the HangSeng or the Topix, its still the NYSE or the LSE.
Personally, I hope that China's totalitarian system implodes like all the oppressive regimes before it. The only reason that it still exists today is because they are constantly liberalizing- a move that many of the poorer Chinese are pushing back against as it is. If China was a democracy, with liberal ideals and all, I could see a true change in the wold paradigm occur. But many companies are too scared of the government to really make the switch. I wouldn't shift my wealth to China if I knew that if I got too big they would sue me, put me in jail, or just take all my money. It's happend before and continues to happen. Once the Politburo or whatever they call it becomes a democratically elected body, and Communism becomes like a western democracy theres a chance. That is the biggest impediment to China's continued success. Just like Nazi Germany or the USSR, proponents of China will say that it is different and can succeed- but there is no reason to believe it can in the long run. Read the Road to serfdom, proving yet again that governmental control leads to totalitarianism- which is anathema to private companies.
The permanent surveillance and counteracting in the markets prohibits China´s efforts to become a leader in capital markets.
The economy is strong for one reason--->regulation by the state
No Democracy in China, No Finance Place No. 1 in China
Imagine China appreciate the RMB to $0,5, they open their capital markets for outside investors, i mean fully open, bonds, stocks, everything.
But the Communist structure remains, which investor is putting his money into a market, where the authorities use their power to close financial structures, to shut down companies ?
Do you know that Joint Ventures of International Companies in China were often closed by chinese authorities, they shut them down saying there is fraud, corruption anything else. In one way China is more corupt than Russia.
One possible case:
Your company is listed in Shanghai, worth more than $2 billion and then you forgot to pay local authorities, members of the communist party. Forget your company, forget your wealth !
China will not become even close to a wider domination in financial markets, without democracy.
HK and Singapore are quite attractive, but also over estimated.
When Greece must leave the EMU and the Euro crisis cool downs, then London will take over the leadership. In times of recession and crisis, London made promises (taxes etc.). But times are changing...
Story of the 21st century life so far.
Oddly, I just got a call from Goldman Sachs recruiting today!
no asian city will become a financial capital any time soon, dont be ridicoulus.
London will take a big hit due to the general banker bashing in the UK.
Thanks
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
You seem to know so much that isn't so.
Goldman Sachs is firing 230 in NY.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-sachs-to-cut-230-new-york-city…
pretentious quote dropping does not support your arguments.
For a city to be a financial capitals it needs to have little regulation in the financial sectors, but a strong legal system, political stability and be free of corruption.
I have made many arguments to state my case. Haha little corruption that is a good one. Keep dreaming the dream man.
I hope you´ll invested your whole capital in southeast. You must profit from your belief.
And I dont think you did understand that China is still reigned by communists and that elements in communism can be so destructive, that financial markets totally collapse.
In another thread I named China´s huge problems. They are now invisible, cause everybody sees only 10% growth rates, soaring FX Reservers and increasing trade surpluses.
Just before 2007, only a few did forecast the subprime crisis, the rest stayed on the buyside.
xx
@ProdigyOfZen
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/understanding-china
Read the book
There are Optimists and Pessimists on China, in the future we´ll see who was right
I can't believe how incredibly narrow-minded you all are.
International kids from Asia in the US tend to be more socially awk it's true, but that's b/c they're in a foreign culture, and working hard is their competitive advantage in a foreign land.
Have any of you heard about LKF? People in HK party harder than we do in NY. I can't believe someone's actually generalizing an entire effing race!!
Try going to Asia and see how you feel bitch.
Prodigy,
Using history to forecast the future is slightly lol but whatever.
You are correct that on an infinitely long time line a city other than london/nyc will be the financial capital, and it may very well be in asia.
I think what we are arguing is solely that as of now and in the very near future(maybe 30 years) the financial capital will not be in an asian city.
On a slightly longer time horizon you may very well be correct.
We could agree there Levered BUT
Why is using history to forecast the future lol? We are all humans, human behavior hasnt changed for thousands of years and human behaviour is what drives he markets.
I am dumbfounded that you would NOT use history to gauge what will happen in the future. Everything happening today is nothing new, the players/technology have changed but this has all happened before.
Realizing that empires rise and fall in dominance is a good indicator of what will happen to the US. Unless of course you are of the mind that " It is different this time"
The Persians ruled the world and fell but are sill here, The greeks ruled the world and fell but are still here, The romans ruled the world and fell but are still here, The Mongols ruled the world and fell but are still here, The Byzantines, the Muslims, the Spanish Hapsbugs, the English empire all ruled at one point.
The two things all those civilisations have in common is that they once ruled with dominate money/ culture/language and then they all fell out of power for another new empire to crop up.
This is the way the world works but again your world view may be different. The US empire has ruled for a while and now it is in decay.
I am just using history to forecast the future but then again that is lol to you.
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