GS or BAML?
I'm in the process of trying to decide between IBD SA offers from GS and BAML. On the surface, Goldman carries more "prestige" and generally better exit opps, but I'm concerned about their summer to FT conversion rate (rumored to be pretty low), especially its tendency to increase the cutthroat dynamic among SAs.
On the other side, I really like everyone I've met at baml. They've all been very accommodating and I definitely feel a little more comfortable around them. I don't feel uncomfortable in the GS environment, but my "gut" tells me I'm a little more inclined to the BAML environment.
Additionally, I feel that I can more easily get placed into groups that I want at BAML, for whatever that's worth. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
i have no valuable input, but just wanted to say well done for thinking about this maturely, you'll be an asset to wherever you go.
.
Can you leverage the BAML offer to get a specific group guarantee or set of groups guarantee?
Goldman Sachs, no questions. Even if u r not getting the offer at the end, just the name of GS on the resume will be tremendous plus in terms of applying for other positions. Really depends if you are risk-adverse person or not. I mean, getting a chance to work for GS is not that easy
By the way, for BAML, it is not that safe either. Three students from my school got the baml SA last year and only one got the FT offer. So either way, it really depends. I would go with GS
If BAML won't guarantee you a group, easily GS.
Congrats, it's a good problem to have. From the environment and ideal group placement perspective, it seems as though BAML is a better fit for you. When in doubt, go with your gut.
While good opportunities to choose from, be very careful. If you get shit group at GS, your life will be just as difficult.
Name only take you so far, beyond this point, experience matters. If you can get a good group at GS, great.
Best piece of advice I ever received: Go Where You Feel The Love
Two things: you will have plenty of exit opportunities from either place. Yes, GS might be marginally better for getting you that first look, but both places will get you more interviews than you will want or be able to handle. And as you know, once you have the interview, the playing field is just about even - it's just up to you to kill it again.
Second, you need to think beyond this summer to the full-time job. Assume you get the offer - now you have to consider, "I am going to be spending the large majority of my waking hours for 2 full years of my life around the same group of people day in and day out". Where do you want that to be? That's your decision.
I would go for BAML any day, especially since I always follow my gut and so far I have never been wrong. Good luck in any case, you have a nice dilemma.
As much as the BAML argument makes sense, any rational person will tell you to go GS. Personally, idgaf about GS vs other banks. However, I've been through enough interviews and around enough people to know how GS is perceived.
If you don't get a return offer from GS, which I think is overblown here to a degree (if you perform, you will get one. If you aren't good...then you won't), you can still get a good FT offer at another BB. Anyway, I highly doubt if you kill it you will not receive an offer. I have 2 friends who went to GS as SA and were not the best students but were able to get FT offers.
One person I know who went to GS (not a friend, but friend of a friend) interned in a top 3 group there, didn't receive an offer for FT and ended up getting 5 other FT offers during regular recruiting at Laz, Centerview, PWP, DB, and I forget the other (Citi I think...maybe barcap). He ended up going to Laz M&A. So as you can see, the door will still be open to go to another bank if you realize you hate GS or don't get another offer.
For what it's worth, my two friends there have very contrasting opinions. One in top group loves it, says the culture is great, and doesn't get THAT crushed. Other friend is miserable and wants nothing to do with banking.
I think you go GS and have no concerns whatsoever.
I second what is said here. Especially the part about GS SA competition being a bit overblown. If you perform well and show promise, they will give you a FT offer. It isn't some gauntlet where 12 interns are fighting for 6 spots.
In the end, you have two good choices. I'd recommend GS - they have a strong reputation and great track record. The only exception would be if you could get placement in BAML M&A/LevFin and then I might consider baml over GS.
Definitely go with Goldman. If you don't like them at the end of the summer, you can always go to BAML (if you get an offer). The other way around is just not true. If you don't get an offer, and I thi k that shouldn't be your focus right now, you can always get a boutique or MM gig, or even a "lower tier" BB with the Goldman brand on your résumé. Think long term about this, and how it will impact your future business school and career paths. Banking is banking everywhere, and baml is just better at selling it to you than GS.
I think there are some great points across this thread, and overall both are great opportunities. However, I think it makes the most sense for a SA position to go to GS, and I'll explain my reasoning below, some of which will echo what others have said above.
GS on the whole has a stronger investment banking platform than BAML, this is pretty well known- the top groups at baml (sponsors/LevFin, M&A, HC), while strong groups, are comparable if not weaker reputation wise to some of the 'lesser' Goldman groups- Industrials, Real Estate, etc. I don't buy into this stuff too much, but the point here is that GS from a reputation and 'doors opened' standpoint is stronger than BAML, and it isn't by an insignificant amount either.
Given that this is for a SA stint, when they say it is a 3 month (10 week) chance for the firm to interview you and you to interview the firm, it truly can apply in your case. Go to GS, see how you like it, get an offer (by, as was said above, just doing OK and not sucking at the job), and go from there. If you get an offer and hate it, you will have the opportunity to go to baml or really anywhere else in the IB world that you'd like to (not a guarantee, but a strong shot). If you go to GS and hate it and don't get an offer you'll 1) Possibly realize you don't like the job and look for jobs elsewhere (and have a great name to help you get there) or 2) Realize you didn't like the firm but like banking, in which case you'll still get interviews (and can always go back to BAML). Or you'll get an offer, have had a great summer, and accept it. The offer rates at GS aren't that low- as with any firm, if you make a good impression and do alright, you'll get an offer, if not then you won't. All this above applies to GS in a way that it doesn't apply to BAML, and this is as a result of GS having the reputation that it has (in fact, this luxury of being able to not get an offer and still have great ib interview prospects doesn't really exist other places, maybe MS to some much smaller degree). At other firms it is much, much more difficult to recruit full times after not receiving an offer from the summer.
My biggest point is regarding culture and that between GS and BAML, seeing as how you mentioned that you didn't care much for the GS people and liked everyone you met at BAML. I think there is an air of arrogance that is prevalent in many of the people at GS, but I also am certain that if you accept and go through group placement process, you'll find a group that you click with. Just due to the sheer size of these firms, it is difficult for any of them to have a real differentiating culture- if you were deciding between boutiques this is a very different story- chances are you won't be working with any of the people at GS that you met or any of those that you met at BAML. In all of the recruiting process I neither interviewed with or spoke with anyone in my current group (that I was placed into during the group placement process). With a boutique, let's take Rothschild, you might be in an office with 50 bankers total- having disliked the people you met and interviewed with (let's say 8-10 people) is already a substantial percentage of the office and likely many people that you will end up working with. The final thing I'll say on culture is that many of the "IBD horror stories" of bosses screaming at analysts and interns, making unreasonable demands with short notice, etc come in my experience from BAML (in particular many of the Merrill legacy senior people). My point is that you're working with a tiny sample size (unless you've literally talked to a hundred at each firm).
All in all, it is your call, and if you're convinced that your life will be that much better at BAML, then that is not a bad reason to choose it, but my recommendation would be to go for GS, given that this is only for a SA position.
"I don't buy into this stuff too much, but the point here is that GS from a reputation and 'doors opened' standpoint is stronger than BAML, and it isn't by an insignificant amount either."
This has been true in the past, but BAML is ahead of GS in the M&A universe in league tables for 2014.
LOL YTD league table ranking is probably one of the worst ways to pick a job.
All the reasons above are nice, but the important thing to know is that your banking experience will suck no matter what. Give yourself the opportunity to have the best possible exit opps.
I feel your dilemma. Honestly BAML people were the coolest and most genuine I've ever met
what would you guys do if it was of a question of an EB (like Laz, Evercore) vs BAML? just curious...
Also curious about others opinions on top groups (M&A, Lev Fin) at BAML vs. generalist offers at top BBs/EBs
Here's a little story for you. I started my career in Ops at GS and then ended up in a pseudo FO role before leaving to start back over as a 1st year analyst in IB at Citi. I never really saw myself as a career S&T guy and thought that for the long term banking was a better skill set. I stayed at Citi for 3 years. This was pre-recession when Citi was held in higher regard than it is today. When I was interviewing to leave Citi at the end of my analyst program I noticed something very strange. The interviewers were more interested in talking about my experience at GS even though it had zero relevance to the jobs i was applying to.
It seems that, at least at that time, people really gravitated towards the GS brand, even though the relevant skills were learned at a different bank. Maybe times have changed, but I do believe that there is value in having GS on your resume.
I had a friend who interned at GS last summer. He said the people he worked with were complete asses. And not like Type-A rough-around-the edges, but explicitly and purposely offensive and insulting to him (and probably other interns).Gay jokes, race jokes, and middle-school league bullying tactics. He finished the summer and they gave him a FT offer, but in an office that he didn't work in and had no interest in joining.
Long story short, he rejected the offer and was hired by another BB .
The GS reps at info sessions (especially the analysts) are on average a lot douchier than those from other banks, just from my experience.
Maybe BAML just did a good job of selling a good office environment, but Goldman doesn't even try to sell that. I think that says a lot.
I can't tell you which to choose though, because (1) I'm just a lowly college student and (2) I think you already know the answer :)
Go with GS. You're gonna be miserable no matter which you choose so you might as well go with prestige.
what did you end up choosing? I'm in a similar boat right now.
BAML vs. GS for summer analyst (Originally Posted: 11/15/2015)
Hi All,
I received an offer from both BAML and Goldman Sachs for a summer analyst position. I am very interested in biotech and eventually want to go into biotech VC. I know that Goldman's healthcare group is not as strong as BAMLs so I was wondering if the VC exit opportunities at Bank of America are significantly better than Goldman's. I think at this time I am leaning towards Goldman as I could see myself working there long term if I decide not to do VC. I also like the people there a little bit better (a ton of people reached out to me to help prep for the superday and congratulate me, where as no one helped me prep for BAML). While I completely understand that I will have to work a lot in both places I am a little concerned that I will get absolutely destroyed at Goldman, and am a bit worried about the super competitive/high pressure environment. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks.
Do Goldman. Even if you get killed &/or hate it in the summer, or don't get the return offer, you will be tremendously positioned for FT recruiting. You'd probably get an interview to to most places you apply. BAML is great too, but Goldman is the less risky play and therefore the better choice. Congrats
Thanks for the input! Do you have any thoughts on the strength of the healthcare groups for both firms and how that may contribute to opportunities with VCs?
No, I can't speak to the specific groups
Go with GS. It opens up a lot of exit opportunities at such prestigious institutions as the Federal Reserve, the SEC, the Department of Justice, and FINRA.
GS hands down. The name will set you up well for any BB at FT recruiting should you want to switch bank/group
Goldman by far.
BAML Healthcare is very strong, yes, but that's in the context of applying to the dedicated healthcare teams at megafund that verticalize strictly (like Carlyle, Warburg) or funds that have healthcare as one of a few core focal industries (GTCR, KKR, Bain, Cinven, etc.). (It'd be stupid not to include Orbimed, obviously.)
VC is an incredibly clubby, name brand-driven environment. You can see this by looking at the very narrow and concentrated set of schools represented in the industry (Harvard (24% of MBA Associates alone), Stanford (17%), Wharton, MIT, Berkeley, and CalTech are the heavyweights) as well as the firms that funded entrepreneurs are alumni of (IBM, Intel, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, etc.).
Goldman carries much more weight than BAML. Go look at all the Associate / Principal hires at each of the most well-known VC funds. The few that came from a banking role tend to be from GS SF (TMT), MS Menlo, or Qatalyst). It will also help you if you choose to apply for an MBA (which many firms require for the partner track).
To your other comments, banking in general is a high-pressure environment. BAML won't be much different than GS. At both firms you'll work long hours, deal with tight deadlines on multiple staffings, have crummy Associates (and some good ones), make mistakes and get chewed out, get thrown under the bus when you shouldn't, and get sick of banking pretty quickly. You'll also learn hard, valuable skills, develop lasting friendships in your analyst class that will serve you well across a long career, get to listen to smart people who've broadened their knowledge during decades in the industry, accrue experience that future employers will value highly, and get paid a lot of money for a 23-year-old.
In short, Goldman is going to carry you farther. The brand name matters not just in this job, but also for the next, then the MBA if you choose to go, and the job following that. It's also more recognizable beyond finance, and if for some reason the summer doesn't work out and you need to recruit elsewhere, it's a pretty strong indicator of you being smart and successful (and easy to cite as having a culture you simply struggled to fit into).
GS Lev Fin vs. BAML IBD for SA (Originally Posted: 01/21/2013)
Which would be a stronger SA position if I'm hoping for PE after 2 years - BAML IBD or GS Lev Fin? (consider GS doesn't want people leaving with the new analyst program and GS capital markets isn't nearly as strong as their coverage groups)
Which BAML group?
BAML
Get the offer, network, and get on the accelerated track by the end of the summer.
no group specific offer. i have contacts to a few guys in FSG, but nothing solid. Solidarity - what is the accelerated track?
I mean if its SA you could try GS (if you even get the offer) and then leverage for a better group within the firm, or MS/JPM or an elite boutique. I'm sure have GS as a SA on a resume w/a return offer will give you many interview opps
*having
another vote for GS Lev Fin, it is a lot better than any industry group within BAML imho
Lev Fin is a product group and some say you develop the perfect skillset for PE through Lev Fin so that kinda provides more lean to GS. Although, most of the BAML IBD FT hires are from their SA groups so lean towards BAML. TMT, Healthcare, and Industrials are all decent at BAML.
Too bad these offers weren't reversed as BAML has one of the strongest Lev Fin groups. I would probably go with GS.
GS ranks high in league tables IPOs, so at least ECM is pretty strong. I know people who have placed very well out of GS LevFin, and I would take that any day over an industry group at BAML. Unsure why people play up how hard it is to get an offer at GS from a SA role- they take around 50%, and if you do a good job you'll get an offer. The kids who I know that didn't get offers knew they weren't going to get them- it didn't come as a shock to them.
Agree - most of the guys you expect to not get offers end up not getting them LOL. It aint rocket science. As a matter of fact, within ~4 weeks into the internship, the picture becomes clearer.
I'd take GS Lev Fin too. A lot of people tend to shit on GS Lev Fin because it "sucks" but you still get a very solid experience along with the GS name, which can definitely help for FT recruiting. I know of some analysts that made it to Apollo and Oaktree, so it's not like they don't place anywhere on the buyside.
SA conversion is generally way way higher than 50%
GS LevFin is doing incredibly well, and I've seen some people go into the buy-side after two years. Nevertheless, you won't get much modeling experience, thus your post-IB opportunities will be limited. With FT recruiting next to non-existent these days, I'd worry about where you think you have a better shot at getting the FT offer and actually working there after graduation. Plus, BAML is a very solid BB and most of their groups are very good
Not much modeling in Leveraged Finance?
I know someone who works at GS LevFin and that's what he said - coverage groups take care of it most of the time. In fact, I know levfin on WSO has this rep of being very technical leading to great exit opps but in reality... Technical =/= modeling experience
GS Lev Fin serves more to advise industry groups than anything else. that said, i have heard of people GS Lev Fin going to top MM PE shops, but havent heard of megafund placement. I'd say it would go BAML M&A/Sponsors/LF >= GS Lev Fin > BAML industry
GS conversion rates aren't great compared to other places, but I don't think they're as bad as 50%. That's 50 new spots you have to fill every August.
GS. This is a no brainer.
Last 12 hours to decide, GS Sales v.s. BAML IBD (Originally Posted: 02/14/2011)
Hi guys,
I'm quite exhausted about choosing between the two SUMMER ANALYST offers, so any advices and suggestions would be really appreciated since I'll have to make the decision in the next 12 hours.
GS S&T: GS are running a rotational program but you don't know the rotational details until near Jun, based on the interviewer I have gone through, I might get start from Cash Equity Sales(Their MD called me for the offer) then rotate to another desk during the internship.
-Pros: GS Brand Name, Generally, hours are better than IBD -Cons: Relatively lower conversion rate(for both GS and S&T) Career path of Sales(v.s. IBD)
.
BAML IBD: Will not find out the team by May, I personally prefer TMT/Energy though. BAML is getting better performance recently in Asia.
-Pros: More clear career path & solid tech skills than sales High conversion rate(they do ) Culture -Cons: hours, hours, hours Brandname wise
. Personally, I have no strong preference for choosing IBD or ST, but I do lean SIGHTLY to IBD since I would do something more industry-related.
BTW, both positions are in HK and I'm planning to stay for FT since I'm asian.
Thanks very much, any insights or suggestions are really appreciated!!
(I posted this on both IB and Trading board, sorry for the repetition)
LOL, that video is fun.
but seriously, any suggestions? thanks a lot
Decide if you want to do sales or IB. It is your career. Pick whichever you will enjoy more each day you go to work. Don't pick sales if you want to do IB, or vice versa.
baml
Yea... two completely different animals. Personally I would choose GS Sales... better name, better lifestyle... but if you really want to do IBD than there shouldn't really be a question.
ya really comes down to IB vs S&T not GS vs BAML. id personally take GS as well though. you can always go for IB full time if you dont like S&T (and vice versa if u do IBD and want to do S&T full time).
Yeah, just choose the one you think you want most. It's just an SA position, which can be important, but it's better to find out you don't like a job as an SA as opposed to FT. Pick the one you think you like better and give it a test run over the summer. If you decide you don't like it, try and lateral into the opposite position.
Regards
so it's past 12 hours... what did you end up deciding on?
sales exit opps = hedge fund IBD exit opps = private equity
IBD doesn't have better opps just different depending what you like - I'd go hedge fund over pe but that's me
you will not get a HF position from sales. definitely way easier out of IBD to get into a HF.
Trading may lead you to a hedge fund but not sales.
trading could lead you to a HF but most likely as an execution trader if you are a flow trader on the sell side. if you want to be an analyst at a fundamental based HF the best options are IB and research (either ER or credit)
Incorrect, I've been in s&t for a while and talk to several former-sales guys on the buyside that are both PM's and Analysts. There are a couple former IBD guys but mostly sales and ER - with IBD guys tending to go the PE route as I mentioned. For some reason people on this website are often unaware that good salespeople with a track record of identifying good money making ideas are also often recruited by hedge funds and mutual funds.
1.21 you are so wrong its laughable. why would a sales guy whose job is to regurgitate sell side research and pitch whatever crap the traders wanna get rid of be qualified to be a PM? Think about it.
Are you serious? Do you work in Finance? I don't need to think about it - I'm in the business and talk to the buyside all day everyday. I know who's from where and who did what before. There are former sales guy PM's and Analysts (not sales-traders, institutional salespeople), and former ER PM's and Analysts. There are a few former IBD guys but not as many since most go the PE route. If a sales guy only 'regurgitated research and pitched inventory' they wouldn't get very far. The buyside pays for money making ideas. A good salesperson has to act somewhat like a "sell-side" PM if he wants to be successful - look at all of the information available and decide what to discuss. I've attached a link that adds to my point if that helps: http://www.wallstreetandtech.com/electronic-trading/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222300320
1.21 is f*cking ridiculous, and should shut up and not give advice. IBD places much better in both PE and HF. Sales will get you into a HF as a marketing officer at most.
If you look at the league table in Asia,
BAML M&A is No. 3
2010 M&A League from Dealogic APAC ex Japan
where is GS???
2011/1/1 - 2011/2/18 (Dealogic) M&A League Table
GS doesn't even show up in the top 10. Although it's very early to say anything about 2011. BAML is doing much stronger in M&A.
^^^League tables mean nothing here (especially at this point of the year), GS is much more highly regarded in Asia than BAML. They also get all the best mandates in the region.
That's why I posted 2010's too. Sure you can argue deal flow in M&A doesn't matter. Go for the name then
Well it all depends where your interests lay. If you're OK with the working hours in IBD, then I would take that just because of the exit opps. Having said that, those two years as an analyst will be tough and only take IBD if you think you can manage.
Keep in mind that it is possible (i.e. this happened to exactly one person I know, but I don't know that it's particularly common) to convert a position in GS Securities to a full time offer in GS IBD. Basically, you push HR after you get an offer from Securities, which happens pretty early on in the internship, and ask for fast track interviewing in IBD.
Advice Needed: GS vs BAML (Originally Posted: 05/01/2010)
Have two offers for very similar tech positions at GS and BAML. The GS position is slightly more interesting (from what I understand right now) and there's a probability that bonus will be higher. BAML has ok offer but I'm thinking GS would be better for exit strategies and career growth.
I do have some reservations about what's going on with GS right now... Is there really room for concern?
Any advise would be helpful!
I would not worry about GS, but you should post more specifics about the two offers if you want better advice.
Nobody can offer advice without information regarding the offers (division or department, etc).
I never thought I would see the day when a question like this would arise
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