Harvard 2+2 Program---->IB/HF/PE later?

Is it possible to go through the 2+2 Program at HBS (or Stanford GSB deferred option) and go straight into IB, HF, PE, etc? I've heard that getting an MBA straight out of grad school is a disaster.

I'm currently a 2nd year econ major but I'm thinking of dropping the major and majoring in French, IR or Politics. I'm interested in international relations, but I'd still like to venture in IB in the future. Also, I kind of wrecked my freshman year GPA, I've pulled it up dramatically this semester (4.0), but I'm not sure I can pull it far enough to be competitive for IB SA positions my junior year. The best I could hope for by beginning of next year is 3.3-3.4.

However, I'm certain that majoring in an easier major, French or Politics, I could pull up my GPA in time for grad admissions. Econ is a relatively difficult major at my school (lot of grade deflation) and as much as I do enjoy my econ related courses it's been stressful trying to maintain an A in these classes to make up for my freshman year. I find that I have an easier time with my French/Politics/IR courses.

What should I do?

 
  1. None of this stuff other stuff if you don't get an IB SA internship like you're planning, so let's not get ahead of yourself here.

  2. Keep the GPA way up. Whether or not your major matters depends on your school. At an Ivy, doesn't matter too much. If you're at a non-target...probably want something quantitative. (As an aside, it's a little concerning that you think econ is "too hard"...that shit isn't anything more than calculus.) No surprise that you think Politics and International Relations is easier. I mean, those are joke majors.

  3. Going to IB from HBS/GSB as a 2+2 wouldn't be at all difficult, but presumably you'd already have done 2 years as an analyst, so I don't know why you'd spend $150k and 2 years going to business school to get an associate position when you could just get promoted A2A. PE and HF would be much more difficult for you, however, because the people who you would be competing with for those positions would have 2 years as an analyst plus another 2 at a reputable PE firm or HF.

IMO, 2+2/deferred admission is great for MBB consultants, since they're going to business school anyway and many of them just do 3 years at their consulting firm. So there's no real disadvantage to leaving early. For IB, though? Heading to biz school without buyside experience could be a disaster.

 
  1. I'm trying to be realistic here. My worry is that majoring in Economics is going to lower my GPA (and it's already not too great). I don't think I'd be able to attain any job in finance if my GPA isn't where it needs to be.

  2. Some people are more quantitative oriented, others not so much. I'm somewhere in the middle but I think I'd do far better in a more humanities-type major. I'm thinking of the potential to have a higher GPA other than majoring in something that is more "challenging". A high gpa in Politics or IR would probably do better than a low one in econ I presume. I'm also attend a Top 20 lac but it's a non-target (w/ some reliable alumni contacts).

  3. I'm actually also looking at management consulting so perhaps 2+2 could still be an option?

So, my plan is French/IR major-->High GPA-->Harvard 2+2 (if I'm lucky)-->IB/MBB Consulting/HF

Can't I make that work?

 
Best Response
AfricanGal:

1. I'm trying to be realistic here. My worry is that majoring in Economics is going to lower my GPA (and it's already not too great). I don't think I'd be able to attain any job in finance if my GPA isn't where it needs to be.

2. Some people are more quantitative oriented, others not so much. I'm somewhere in the middle but I think I'd do far better in a more humanities-type major. I'm thinking of the potential to have a higher GPA other than majoring in something that is more "challenging". A high GPA in Politics or IR would probably do better than a low one in econ I presume. I'm also attend a Top 20 lac but it's a non-target (w/ some reliable alumni contacts).

4. I'm actually also looking at management consulting so perhaps 2+2 could still be an option?

So, my plan is French/IR major-->High GPA-->Harvard 2+2 (if I'm lucky)-->IB/MBB Consulting/HF

Can't I make that work?

  1. What I'm saying is that you should be taking Econ and getting A's. You're not at MIT. C'mon.

  2. I don't know what a "Top 20" liberal arts college is, and I'm kind of a whore about this stuff, so it sounds like your school isn't too impressive. In that case, you would definitely benefit from choosing a more challenging major and getting As in it. A 3.6 in International Relations from, I dunno, Macalaster? That's not going to impress an Ivy-educated banker. It's a joke major at a school that people will assume inflates grades. If you're "not quantitative," then I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be working in finance. Stop being a little bitch and study a little harder.

  3. When I said that HBS 2+2 was a good program for MBB consultants, I just meant that it made sense for them because (a) a lot of MBB consultants go to business school anyway, and (b) a lot of them apply straight out of McKinsey, unlike bankers, who usually work in another role for 2-3 years before applying. So you're not lacking all this professional experience.

I think you have this backwards line of reasoning though, where you're looking at HBS as the goal and trying to figure out what the best career is to get there. And that's totally, 100% shitty logic. HBS is just a tool to advance your career. It doesn't make your career. Like if I told you that you could flip burgers for two years and then go to HBS, would you do it? No, that'd be retarded, because you'd still be a burger flipper, only you'd be down $150k and have a fancy diploma and an HBS North Face fleece.

I think what might be confusing you is that an MBA is actually very different than a JD (law degree) or an MD (medical degree). With the latter two, just getting the degree basically sets your career path in motion. Like, you go to law school and when you graduate, presumably you will then begin to work as a lawyer. That's it. So like, getting a Harvard Law degree kinda equals professional success in the legal field. Everyone goes to law school, law firms generally only select people from good law schools, etc etc. Same thing (sort of?) with medicine. Once you go to the fancy school, you're going to go do fancy successful things? If that makes sense.

But an MBA isn't the same. Like, plenty of successful finance professionals never get MBAs. It's not a prerequisite for being a successful investor, or banker, or whatever. And getting an MBA early (like I said before) is a bit of a waste. And not everyone (here's the most important part) is on the same playing field when they attend! Like, if you're Mr. Harvard undergrad to BX R&R to KKR, you're going to have a very different recruiting experience than Mr. Rutgers undergrad to Ernst & Young who's got this really interesting life story that HBS really liked. Both HBS admits (and future alums), two very different professional arcs. Simply getting into HBS isn't going to make Mr. Rutgers into a future billionaire business super-star.

So I guess my point is like, figure out what you want to do professionally and go do that? Then you can apply to MBA programs and it'll all sort itself out from there.

 

It's honestly for STEM, women, and minorities. The whole purpose is to attract candidates who normally wouldn't attend business school. I've only heard of one candidate going to an MBB for 2 years but she is a woman and minority as well. Others were Microsoft, Boeing, and a PhD. I've heard they don't bother with business majors and IBD unless you really are special ( but come on, everyone thinks their situation is special) because they'll get plenty of those applicants in regular admissions.

 
brooksfit:

It's honestly for STEM, women, and minorities. The whole purpose is to attract candidates who normally wouldn't attend business school. I've only heard of one candidate going to an MBB for 2 years but she is a woman and minority as well. Others were Microsoft, Boeing, and a PhD. I've heard they don't bother with business majors and IBD unless you really are special ( but come on, everyone thinks their situation is special) because they'll get plenty of those applicants in regular admissions.

Thanks for the helpful response. That's generally what I've heard.

Anyone here apply to 2+2 and get accepted? Dinged?

 

I was accepted. For those who can't find jobs but do get accepted (and there are a couple) HBS does lend a hand to help them find jobs. I'm not sure exactly what that entailed as I already had an offer that I accepted but I did see some emails go out. For reference I was a pretty typical STEM applicant, not minority or female though.

 

I was accepted to the 2+2 about 2 years ago. It seems to me that HBS accepts STEM from major industries such as oil, aero, energy, and auto. Outside of this, they do accept a large quantity of traditional business types, including MBB, IB, VC, and start-ups. The traditional business types are typically from prestigious (HYPS) undergrads while the F500 STEM are not always from prestigious undergrads. Plenty of minorities and non-minorities in the mix. These are trends I've noticed and not absolutes.

For this reason, I cringe when people here say that the 2+2 program is only for STEM applicants, minorities, or for people who would traditionally go to law school. This simply is not true anymore.

My data comes from a sample size that is relatively large as the facebook group consists of 300+ members.

 
Does anyone get accepted to this who plans to go BB IBD before matriculating?
Yes. But it is likely that you won't have a job in hand before submitting the application, and if you do get in, you can change your mind to do whatever you want. They are not admitting you on your post-college ST goals.
Is it impossible to get accepted as a business major going into IBD?
No, not impossible
Athough they've opened it up to all majors
They've always had many majors included the deferred admit class (the lay description of 2+2) since forever, at least since I went there 100 years ago.
it seems as though they are largely STEM focused.
sure, why not? They like sciences, and not just for the 2+2 candidates. But they are not only looking for STEM candidates.

and obviously @"AnalyzeThat" knows what he is talking about. So I shall repeat his money quote:

For this reason, I cringe when people here say that the 2+2 program is only for STEM applicants, minorities, or for people who would traditionally go to law school. This simply is not true anymore.
Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

Riddle me this: If I went to a state school, studied liberal arts, and have been working in finance for two years, is it possible / advisable to apply to this program? Aside from the two years in finance, I come from a somewhat unconventional background.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
Riddle me this: If I went to a state school, studied liberal arts, and have been working in finance for two years, is it possible / advisable to apply to this program? Aside from the two years in finance, I come from a somewhat unconventional background.

Pretty sure you apply and are accepted/rejected during undergrad

 

If you want to get into HBS2+2 do the following:

1) Open a factory in war-torn Sudan that makes quilts and employs local villagers and pays them a decent living wage plus benefits.

2) Start a nonprofit that helps ex sex slaves in Asia get an education.

3) Donate 50% of your earnings from the quilt factory to the nonprofit to finance its operations.

4) Go to ancestry.com and trace your family tree back to a point that links you to Native Americans, then claim NA as your ethnicity on the application.

Just do all four steps and you'll have no problem getting in.

 

You have to get away from a traditional "finance kid" profile. It's about 3.8+ GPA in a quantitative major, 750+ GMAT, starting at least one social venture, non-finance work experience, and even then an interview is a long shot OP, especially since (no offence) I'm pretty sure you go to MacMaster. But I mean by all means take a shot, I'm applying this October so if you have any questions about the program from the research I've done feel free to PM me.

Cheers,

‎"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to become the means by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of other men. Blood, whips and guns or dollars."
 

Ok, a few things from the perspective of an HBS student.

1) You do NOT need to be a diety to get into Harvard. There are 903 students in my school, and only maybe 10-20% have done something outstanding (saving Africa), everybody else just has a habit of leadership. It's true, you see a lot of BIg-3 consultants and PE types, but there are a lot of people from non-traditional backgrounds as well.

2) HBS Admissions does not value the same things your friends do. Conventional wisdom among finance geeks is that PE is this super-amazing thing that gets you into b-school because it's so exclusive. HBS looks for LEADERSHIP, not industry - they care about what you did, not where you did it. It doesn't matter what company you worked for, the question you want to answer is did you make an impact that somebody else in that role would not have made. If you have a habit of leadership, you get in. If not, then not. This applies even for 2+2.

3) 2+2 is specifically designed into getting non-business kids into business school. Think engineers, scientists, non-profit types. Not finance types.

 

None that I'm aware of. However, some schools accept students directly out of undergrad (Yale, MIT, UChicago, Stanford, UCLA I think?) and many students who were accepted directly out of undergrad are often able to request and secure a deferral to obtain work experience before starting. MBA programs rarely grant deferrals for work reasons, but this is one of the few circumstances where they are lenient on them.

Also, I really think you need monster grades/scores (i.e. 3.8 at a top school, 750+ GMAT) in addition to very convincing essays to stand a chance at being admitted directly out of school. They're looking for raw horsepower as well as maturity above and beyond your peers.

 

I don't really have plans of going directly into an MBA program right out of undergrad. From everything I've read and been told the MBA is pretty much worthless without any work experience to relate to. And even more importantly, job placement is much more scarce without that previous work experience once you actually get your MBA. I'm just a paranoid individual looking to essentially secure my spot in a program 1-3 years ahead of time so it's not something I have to worry about once I enter the work force and so I can plan accordingly for it.

 
solomonm:
I don't really have plans of going directly into an MBA program right out of undergrad. From everything I've read and been told the MBA is pretty much worthless without any work experience to relate to. And even more importantly, job placement is much more scarce without that previous work experience once you actually get your MBA. I'm just a paranoid individual looking to essentially secure my spot in a program 1-3 years ahead of time so it's not something I have to worry about once I enter the work force and so I can plan accordingly for it.

From a pure admissions perspective, you're actually at a disadvantage if you apply as an undergrad, in my opinion. Your essays will not show the maturity and seasoning of someone who has real work experience. If you can, get the GMAT out of the way right now and knock it out of the park -- that's much easier to take care of while you're an undergrad and your score is valid for 5 years.

From a job/recruiting perspective, you'll be fine with 1-3 years of work experience if you plan to recruit for banking or consulting. These employers are fine with the young guys (as long as they have superstar grades/scores). If you plan to recruit for private equity or Fortune 500 general management -- yes, it's better to have 4 years+ of work experience.

 
muse:
I am a (incoming) sophomore Engineering major at a well-known state school. (top 10, at least for my major).

I believe that the Harvard 2+2 would be a good fit for me, but talking to a couple of my friends who are interested in b-school, and IB, I've noticed an apparent problem.

If MBA recruiters (especially for IB, PE), recruit on the basis of what the recruit did PRE-MBA, would it be better to use my summers in college doing an engineering internship or a finance internship (or is the latter even possible for an engineering major)?

Also it seems to me that the Harvard program almost "expects" applicants to spend the 2 years pre mba working in the sector of their college major- at least, thats the most logical path, however that conflicts with hiring standards in some post mba fields.

I will definitely take some time to speak to my college's business program advisors during the year, but I'm a bit confused and I'd definitely appreciate any help.

What type of engineering?

The 2+2 program openly states on their site that the program is not intended for business majors. Rather for other majors in helping them get exposure to the business world. So with that being said, I'd say try for engineering internships.

But from what you're saying, it sounds like you're interested in IB? If that's the case you should be aiming for those finance internships. And B-school shouldn't even be on your mind right now because it wouldn't be a necessity.

 

Your GPA is very good, especially given your STEM major. And TFA would be one of the best experiences that Harvard loves. The 2+2 program is extremely competitive, so I would try to get at least a 730. Given that you are a girl (assuming because of your username), I think you have a great chance if you can show some great leadership in extracurriculars.

To answer your question, I believe the median GMAT/GPA is 730/3.75 if you are too lazy to click Island's link.

 

Would it be a useful experience?

If you think an MBA from HBS would be a useful experience, then yes...

"Categorical Imperative: If I cannot look at my mother or my wife in the eyes and explain it, I won't do it" - Some British MD.
 

well, i don't know. I don't assume that it will be a good experience just because it is Harvard. I think it is important to be able to make the most out of it, and I am not sure if that would be the case with only 2 years of experience. That's why I'm asking. I would appreciate to hear experiences of people who have been to business school.

 

Someone knowledgeable about HBS admissions procedure:

I had heard (or possibly read on another thread) that you are unlikely to be admitted to HBS if previously rejected (this was in the context of someone considering applying late (e.g. third round of admission when there are apparently few spots left] and people were telling him/ her that he/she would be better off waiting for the following year). If it is in fact the case that the HBS 2+2 program targets non-business majors (from what I had heard, they frequently look to entrepreneurs and the like) then as a finance major going into finance, would I (and others in my shoes) be better off waiting to apply through normal routes, rather than applying now and risking rejection (e.g. would rejection now negatively impact my chances later)?

 

Yup, I submitted it yesterday.

I'm still wondering if it is worth the almost $200,000 investment(including living expenses) to do an MBA, especially after this whole crisis. Especially considering I am an international student. There is no way I can pay back those loans if I can't get a job in the US that will pay 100K+. Did anyone have an experience like that?

 

That's a tough decision you need to make. Remember you can't take out the entire loan amount in the US. You probably will have to take out a good chunk of the loan in your country of origination. The rates on foreign loans especially in certain EM countries can be a lot higher. If you can save up some good money in the next few years, you could probably pull it off.

 

I'm thinking about it but it seems to me like it's only worth it if you are absolutely positive that you want to go get an MBA after working for only two years. So I probably won't apply

 

Yeah, only if you're 100% certain that you will go for MBA after 2 years of experience. That assumes a lot of uncertainties though. (job, recurring summer visits to HBS, etc)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = " Still .. You can Google it! "
 

I'm pretty sure you apply at end of your junior year actually.. so it takes a lot of planning to have your recs and GMAT done by that point. I know a few people that got in. Top grades and proofs of interest in business (ie. not just by taking a class). Not sure what they're doing after graduation but hey, at least they are set 2 years down the line.

Can you actually decline/rescind? What would be the consequences if you do?

 

2+2 is a rather interesting program that was created to 1) get more younger HBS students, and 2) go after non-traditional applicants. The people who get into 2+2 in general are engineers or have other non-traditional backgrounds. There's actually a bias AGAINST the typical econ/finance major banker/consultant. Also, I don't think it's particularly selective, especially compared to regular HBS admissions. Most of the people from my school who were accepted are not particularly special. That being said, it's a great way to get into HBS early, but the caveat is that you can only work for 2 years, which is dangerous if you want to go into PE long-term, for example.

 

Agreed. It's true that the people they took were were not from traditional econ/finance/business backgrounds (though some were), but so far many of these people went through IB/ST/consulting interviews and still don't have jobs (only know of one 2+2 accept who does have a job). If it was so easy to get it, I kind of wish I'd known about it to apply.

 

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