Has It Gone Too Far?
Let me preface with this by saying: I am a proud mixed-race man of European and African descent. I am proud of what I look like so save your edgy comments for 8chan.
Now, let me ask this, do you think the recent movements have gone too far? And by too far I mean being taken advantage of.
I 100% support those who protest against racial inequality and police brutality (which everyone should, tbh - they beat/kill white people too) and I imagine a future where it truly is a meritocracy, not based on superficial metrics like race, religion, who you like to fuck.
But now, it seems that companies, news stations, CEO's, everyone is taking advantage of the current moment in time. Commercials saying company x is gonna do this, IG post saying company y will commit to that... Either way, it seems companies are trying to play the "woke" card acting like they are there for minorities when who really knows what their true intentions are.
Is the racial inequality movement being taken advantage of by millionaires and billionaires to further push their own agenda, hop on the equality "bandwagon" or to reap the benefits? Or do they truly care about the inequality in this country and will actually try to change the narrative?
Curious to thoughts. And let's keep this civil, yeah?
I think if people want to demonstrate, it is their legal right to do so. We have freedom of speech and the right to congregate.
However, hurting businesses, looting, arson and creating a chaotic situation within a community... - this all damages the cause and hurts people of color more than anyone else. Many of the destroyed businesses were the outcome of hard work - some of them owned by minorities. These people have lost their livelihood and now they can't provide for their families.
Some people abused the cause for their own financial gain, that is not acceptable.
Regarding big corporations: Pretty much all of these companies have diverse staff, so I am sure they see this moment as the right time to introduce changes.
I do not know how many/which company does what exactly.
That's not what he asked. Any way, federal authorities have already determined that much of the looting and arson is being done by opportunists for either financial or anarchist/pyromaniac type reasons. Not saying that there hasn't been some violence created by the protesters but it's far less than you seem to be suggesting.
didn't mean to say that protestors were the perpetrators.
This is irrelevant to OP. Stay on topic, the post isn’t for you to spew your “people of color are destroying their own communities” nonsense. If that is not what you intended, then you should edit your post accordingly, as it reads otherwise.
First of all, I'm genuinely not sure why we need another thread on this, but here it is.
There is nothing "too far" about companies expressing their opinion on issues. They are free to do so and the market is free to respond accordingly.
Some are doing it because they genuinely believe in it, while others are doing it because they don't want to lose business for not doing it, but standing up for what's right isn't "performative woke-ness" or whatever. It's standing up for what's right.
As a country, we used to champion standing up for what's right. Now it is derided as "virtue signaling" or whatever as if displaying virtue, and particularly backing up your words with actions or money, is a negative character trait.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a billionaire owner of a company is standing up for what's right because he or she actually believes it or because he or she is trying to sell t-shirts, because whatever the motivation is, the result is the changing of social norms.
NASCAR just banned the Confederate Flag at races. NASCAR. Things are changing.
This tackles a different angle asking if the movement has been taken advantage of by those who don't really care to see change.
I see where you're coming from, but this isn't a "life as a black person" or "racism in banks" type post. I don't want or need to see the vermin that love to spew hate in those types of posts.
Which is why I gave it a genuine response.
I'm sure the movement has been co-opted at some level and that a lot of the firms posting statements of equality simply don't care either way, as a corporate entity, about social change. After all, the point of a company is to make money - not inspire consumers to change their mentality on issues as complicated as race or police brutality. A lot of these firms have probably, and accurately, seen how dramatically larger the movement is this time versus previous times, and realized that silence would be seen as being complicit. Posting #BlackLivesMatter on their Instagram may not sell any more t-shirts, but going about like it's business as usual would come off as tone deaf and not posting something could most definitely inspire people to not buy their product, or cause them to lose prized employees who lose faith in the company.
Again though, I'm not really bothered by that. It's not like they're co-opting the movement to redirect it elsewhere - they're just doing what so many people did last week, posting a black square to social media and thinking it helps, while going about their lives otherwise unchanged.
It's frustrating, perhaps, but I chose to focus on the people, and companies, who back up their social media posts with real action, and that list is growing.
i think we'd get along
Virtual signaling and standing up for what’s right are two different things. Virtue signaling is when someone posts a black square on their instagram but does not protest, donate, or even try to understand the situation outside of what mainstream media tells them. One step further, virtue signaling is when someone has #blacklivesmatter in their twitter bio but has never had a meaningful conversation with a minority, befriended an illegal immigrant, or volunteered in the inner city. They don’t care about the cause, they care about appearing to care about the cause. They are even blinded by their ignorance and think that merely reading the New York Times opinion section makes them virtuous.
I am aware of the concept
Vandalizing property and historical heritages, instituting a culture of thought crime and make a race apologize for its existance are never going to be ''what's right''.
Never said they were
I thought OP specifically said he didn't want to see people post shit like this?
Vandalizing shit is wrong. However, that shit shouldn't have been put up in the first place. Removing memorials to traitors that were created specifically to promote white supremacy is not "destroying our heritage" or erasing history or anything. Plenty of books still exist about the Confederacy and the Civil War. You don't need a monument to remember history.
Literally doesn't exist. You might get dragged on the internet for a dumbass opinion, but being called out for saying dumb shit is enshrined in the first amendment.
Again, literally isn't happening. Somehow in the last few weeks I've managed to donate to Black causes, buy books by Black authors to learn more about their perspectives, and start an campaign along with my local NAACP chapter all without ever apologizing for being white.
No one is asking white people to apologize for being white. Like no one, at least the people in my circle.
What I do find somewhat okay is the dismantling of known slave owners who happen to have statues made of themselves. The history of the south isn't being desecrated by a few toppled statues of known racists.
Asian here. Not sure if it is corporations and billionaires that we should now be concerned about, but the individuals who destroy businesses and create complete chaos in the midst of a global pandemic.
So the very same people that these corporations and billionaires support and defend?
The riots have largely calmed down for some time now, that shouldn't really be a concern. Unless they are happening where you live.
I'm moreso talking about how much facetime and posts you are seeing from corporate level individuals or companies on IG, LinkedIn, etc about the whole thing. It's got me thinking they are just hopping on the bandwagon on the latest fad, which is fighting injustice (ain't no fad)
Well, aren't we already used to such kind of things? I mean, the corporations LOVE this kind of stuff, and are always doing what is good for their public image.
If what they are doing will help spread the message - then it is probably okay, but this whole stuff could have had a better timing...
Yes
Mixed mulatto here as well (is that still okay to say?)
Like you, I'm all for the movements on the inequality and injustices being served in this country. But I don't understand how just blindly pledging money does anything. Has anyone asked what groups like BLM do with their donations and where the actual change is going to come from?
Can you just buy off racism? I don't get that. But I appreciate that people are at least acknowledging what's been happening in this country for years. I think some companies really do care, like Ben & Jerry's - they've always been down for the team. But some obviously are just throwing out whatever MLK quote they found that day and call it activism. At the end of the day though, it comes down to each individual and if they are going to be the change we need/want to see in this country, or they're not.
You cannot expect companies and CEO's to solve the most complex issue in the history of America.
mulatto here as well, who gives a fuck man, do you. way better than some of the shit we've been called over the years
How dare you. The SJW crew and "woke" media will be at your door asking for a statement and if you support or condemn racism.
/s
edit: BobTheBaker nailed it
Speaking as a black male, I'd say yes, it has gone too far. Alot of it has turned into 1.) an advertising opportunity for alot of companies and 2.) a way to push other agendas that have nothing to do with the black struggle.
With that said, this reaction is better than no reaction at all.
you always say what I want to say so much more succinctly
yes
Speaking from the perspective of an older, white male - take what I say with a grain of salt.
However, with parents who marched in the 60s and who instilled in us that we were no better than those in the poorest parts of Africa, I think it's what we needed. I do agree with @BobTheBaker in that a lot of companies and individuals have taken this opportunity to brand themselves as something they might be, or might not be, we will see. And certainly others are using this facetime to push something completely irrelevant.
BUT, if we really want a just country, we need this. This is hopefully the beginning of a larger conversation that will take many years to have. I certainly have been pleased with the amount of support racial injustice and police brutality have gathered.
Better have this response than none at all, but I'll say again - this is just the beginning of a long, long road ahead.
I see your posts sparingly, and when I do, they are always so well said. +1
I am a very visible minority as well and believe it's gone too far. Some of my companies received messages from people angrily asking what we are doing to support BLM. I even personally replied to one person, who then asked a bunch of dumb questions....
Racism is real but there are much better opportunities on the charitable side of things, and I have 0 intentions of donating to some of these brand new organizations with less than fully transparent reporting.
With that said, "too far" is better than too little.
How can a cause that's based on reaching racial equality ever go "too far" in any aspect?There's a place for edgy, nonconformist and non-consensus viewpoints in a lot of topics, but this isn't one of them.
Any company/person who supports the movement and isn't genuine about their intentions, is still better than someone who shows no support whatsoever.
People are literally fighting to be viewed as equal human beings, any gram of help whether they could of "done more" or are just "virtue signalling" still helps the cause and is appreciated.
If corporations are paying lip service to a social movement, it means that they think that there are more financial risks not supporting the movement than doing so which I think is a good sign in terms of how much society is changing. They were way quieter in previous police brutality instances from what I remember. Not saying that corporations aren't frequently just being obsequious but the reality is that the decision to take x stance or not even take a stance at all affects their bottom line.
Advertisers will advertise around the mood of the day. It's what they do. Their biggest concern is coming up with new angles, so they'd be crazy to not grab one when its handed to them.
From an effectiveness standpoint, it's gone way too far just as it went way too far a couple months ago with the virus. I had a week in March where it seemed like every company I can name was emailing me to let me know that they hope I'm OK. Now every company wants to let me know they're not racist.
I don't know how such transparent ass-kissing is ever effective, but marketers say this is what works.
No it hasn't gone too far in the sense that companies are pounding the civil rights principles into our heads with commercials. And you really think "millionaires and billionaires are pushing their own agenda" by promoting civil rights? come on man
What has gone too far imo are the fucktards that have nothing insightful to add and who constantly bitch and whine on social media leaving comments like "what have you done to support blm?" "check your privilege blablabla" "have you educated yourself on blm?" and trying to stir shit up with other idiots on the internet, fuck right off fucking idiots
To your first point - you mean to tell me there isn't one company out there that didn't agree with the protests, but felt obligated to post "BLM" on June 2 just because their competitors did it? I think it's great overall, but also feel some are taking advantage, hence the wording in the OP.
Second point - I should have included this in the OP. This is a whole other group of people I feel are reaching for something that doesn't have to do with equality and justice...
Yes, I think there are agendas involved and honestly, I could give a fuck about these cosmetic declarations. Do I really need a black lives matter banner on every website I visit? No. That won't change anything.
Let me know what you're actually doing to support the cause then we can talk, otherwise it just seems like clout chasing to me.
The majority of people don't really think for themselves. By that I DON'T mean that they're dumb: many people in this category are very smart. It's just that they absorb their worldview by osmosis from the people and culture around them, and never stop to think about it in a systematic way. They're high in the Big Five personality traits of Agreeableness and probably Extroversion. Peter Thiel has made fun of HBS grads for this, saying that whenever tons of them are targeting a specific industry, that's a good sign that the industry is due for a correction.
The fact that the majority operates this way means that social changes occur non-linearly. At first, a small, isolated minority chips away at the mainstream view, and makes steady but slow progress. For a long time their views remain marginalized. But when they've gotten to the point when there's a lot of momentum behind them, the majority intuitively senses it and switches to their side very quickly. At that point, seemingly overnight, the people who hold the old standard view become a small minority.
The change in views on LGBTQ issues is a classic example of this. (How many 40-somethings in the corporate world who are over-the-top on board now used to call people 'f*gs' constantly on the playground as kids.) We're witnessing another of these tipping points right now.
This is a really interesting point - I'll be interested to see both how this switch plays out particularly within the realm of government / those with the greatest ability to make structural changes as well as what happens to those who remain in the "old standard view" (a group whose deterministic factor will likely be geographic, given the large role that ignorance of the problem plays in this issue as compared to LGBTQ, which seems more belief/values-based than the more awareness-based idea of unconscious biases)
It's a little bit shallow to suggest actions by companies are simply reactionary. The context of it is, a corporate world that was bailed out in 2009; record low borrowing costs have led to skyrocketing asset prices, primarily to wealthy individuals; a Congress that seems to turn the other way; a tax cut that very concretely boosted profit margins of large corporations, passed by a divisive president; and now a COVID-19 situation where, again, industries are being bailed out and money is being passed to wealthy companies and individuals. There is clear historical precedent leading up to this reaction by these companies.
Keep in mind, this is an issue that has sprung up multiple times over the past decade. Multiple. They are now just speaking out on it. It took professional sports players to eventually start supporting the grassroots. And the mainstream started to pick it up, which led to the most recent event where it was already firmly on people's minds. Combine that with the egregious nature of the specific video regarding George Floyd, it was clear that it is now undeniable by anyone with two eyes that something is going on.
On the affirmative action piece you slyly alluded to, I do think that the concept of 'merit' is a little questionable. I've recently been studying for my GMAT exams and didn't get the score I hoped on my first practice runs. Doing some digging and asking around, I've been told multiple times to look into paying a tutor that can somehow surely boost my score. What I've noticed is that it's quite a common practice, to rely on financial privilege to posture the concept of merit. Not everyone, even going back to kids in grade school, have the luxury of an upbringing exposing them to "equal opportunity". I'll add, equal opportunity would require equal cultural exposure, equal brain stimulation/development, and at equal times so as to prepare equally.
But the only reason I really feel merit is a bit touchy is because I notice that conspiracy theorists point to a collection of individuals as wielding total power over our nation's systems. If wealth inequality wasn't as rampant and prevalent in the country, would they bother? More importantly, the thing that seems most consistent with the individuals these people point out, is the existence of the perception of 'merit'. It's not hard to see how that could lead to too much concentration of very closely thinking people, missing out on superior opportunities from too much groupthink.
There are companies who genuinely would believe and support the struggle. There are also those who see it as a tactical PR move. The point is either way these companies are choosing to support this cause, above others, at risk of isolating the opposition . I don’t think it makes a difference what their intentions are. If a big player like Sainsburys supermarket expresses support for the blm cause and removes its statue of Milligan (a slave trader) it gives the blm cause credence and credibility. I feel like if you are fighting for anything in life you should accept support from those who want to give it, regardless of what they may have to gain from it because you too have something to gain from their support. You cannot change the world by yourself.
Second time within the same year I agree with Bob. Then again, so far it has been a crazy year.
I also noticed that most of the people in the thread introduced themselves by ethnicity. You guys have no idea what you are doing. You are tying the validation of your opinion to the colour of your skin. Only the far right and the far left want you to do that and for the same reason.
Although I will never know what it is like to be Black in America, I acknowledge severe change needs to take place — and really, that’s something that starts in the household (what we teach our kids, how to be more accepting etc.) and a VERY SMALL portion will be accomplished through policy reform. The latter is why I think this whole thing has gone too far. The problem is tri-fold:
1) A minority of demonstrators (which are not all black) choose to loot and destroy business, many of which are hurting due to the ongoing Covid-19 slump, and many of these businesses are black owned. This aspect of the movement completely drowns the fact that there is a real issue at hand— It crushes the credibility of the movement. What added fuel to this is many people have been without jobs and forced to stay inside — until now, and it has been borderline uncontrollable. This has led to resentment by many towards demonstrations.
2) social media — as for everything else, social media has served as a bandwagon for BLM. There is nothing wrong with supporting BLM IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN IT. My LinkedIn has been FULL of people plastering their fucking face on a post with a bullshit hashtag, professing to support of movement when they are doing nothing material for African Americans. It’s completely disingenuous. What felt like awareness at first has quickly morphed into a nuisance/ extremely annoying.
3) politics and mass media— I don’t care where you stand, left right center. Whatever. You are living in a fairy tale if you don’t see how blatantly politicians and biased news sources are exploiting this movement.
Much of the “changes” we have seen recently are akin to giving a screaming child candy, or throwing the African American community a bone — incredibly disrespectful if you ask me. Though I’m not saying defund the police, naming a street Black Lives Matter Plaza is doing nothing for the African American community. Change will come with time, and it’s unfortunate Blacks have already waited many many years for this. More importantly though, that change is going to start with a genuine effort — and replacing a white ceo with a black one (Reddit AHEM) or naming a street BLM Plaza is NOT genuine. One is trying to publicly put a halo over one’s head, and the other is basically a lousy attempt to appease a screaming crowd.
I think it's a huge issue that anyone who does not fully 500% commit to the current bandwagon is pilloried, out of a job, investigated, attacked and almost intentionally misunderstood.
Of course there is no conversation about inequality and police brutality - it needs to be fixed - but being completely unable to have a conversation is not freedom of speech.
I think people and companies care, but I think they are being forced to go to the extreme - rending their garments and pulling out their hair, figuratively - to avoid being attacked, destroyed. They are completely and utterly forced to play the "woke" card - it's not optional. If silence = violence, what are people and companies to do?
I mean, did you read about Ron Lauder? Estee Lauder committed $1MM in support of the black community, and his employees are demanding $5MM, and that he step down - because he is a Republican who has personally donated to Trump in the past, and greater $$ to other causes. Ron Lauder is the founder's SON! He does not have to step down because he only committed $1MM! The company did post they support the black community, but that was "not enough". And of course the company is affected by the pandemic - $1MM is not enough after they committed $10MM to communities affected by COVID? And $2MM to Doctors Without Borders? His PERSONAL donations to Trump, his classmate, are no one's business.
Employees wrote: "Ronald Lauder’s involvement with the Estée Lauder Companies is damaging to our corporate values, our relationship with the Black community, our relationship with this company’s Black employees, and this company’s legacy,” Why? He's been a Republican for decades. He went to school with Trump 50 years ago. Oops, he made a personal political donation without his crystal ball - now he must give up his family's company! I mean, he gives tons of $$ personally to the Jewish community, is that a problem too?
Suddenly anyone not laying down on the pavement = neo-Nazi. Companies are in CYA mode. Ok, they thought they were doing something, and it wasn't enough, and more work is being done. That is AWESOME! But to make the environment such that anyone not being MEGA-ULTRA-SUPER-UBER WOKE!!!! is a criminal who deserves shunning and maybe death is not America.
And for anyone who thinks they know me and has some nonsense to say, and that I'm not doing enough , I have been actually on the ground HELPING black children and students FOR DECADES, WELL BEFORE ANY POLITICAL MOVEMENTS. How about helping black grade schoolers with their reading, and mentoring black high school students in my former place of business, donating clothing and running food drives, and cooking meals on site, for young black single moms at a local shelter who are running from abusive partners? I've done this for decades, so save your comments Not because I'm special or awesome. Because I thought they were wonderful opportunities and I respect the need for helping people and trying to give everyone the same opportunity to achieve and succeed.
While I don't think Ron Lauder needs to step down from his position, if you are MAGA I don't want to hear shit about you donating to BLM tbh.
Trump has actively promoted police brutality and was an especially divisive figure in the whole Colin Kaepernick protest debacle. Even now he is espousing being "tough on crime" and trying to color largely peaceful protests as lawless riots populated by thugs aimed at taking down the police state. Dude even implied that 74 year old that was assaulted and hospitalized by Buffalo police is "Antifa" - the new group he plans to rally his uneducated followers against (add it to Hispanics, Muslims, and Chinese).
So, yeah, I understand why Lauder's employees are annoyed with his hypocritical bullshit.
Ron Lauder is an individual
He is allowed to donate to whomever he wants
This is a FREE COUNTRY!
Guess what? People in the United States are allowed to vote for Trump, support Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump. I don't know if Ron is MAGA, maybe he's just a Republican, or an old friend. And yes, he is allowed to donate to Trump, to BLM, to Doctors Without Borders, to Chabad. THIS IS AMERICA. Just because he supported Trump doesn't mean he doesn't support black people. black lives, black employees, black everything. It's not hypocritical at all. Lots of people are Republican, voted for Trump, will vote for Trump, donated to Trump, and actually fully care about black lives, black equality, racism, and police brutality. It's not hypocritical at all.
GUESS WHAT??? Ever heard of Candace Owen? There are black people who support Trump, who are Republican! And who don't think BLM is a good representation of their views. THEY ARE ALLOWED TO IN THIS COUNTRY.
If you are going to tie every issue into BLM so that every American citizen is castigated for anything they have said, donated to or voted for for the last 50 years, that is a complete crock and you are going to find everyone GUILTY of some supposed crime.
100%. It's sad that the movement is taken advantage of to some extent.
To your point about companies going to the extreme, there is definitely a small population that will never be satisfied and will always demand more and more.
People's actions (both in public and private) should speak to their view on this issue. I think it is unfair to crucify someone like Ron in this case. People are always looking to call someone out or use someone/something as blame without critically thinking about whether that argument makes sense or not. So many people have stepped on a soap box and spoke, much of it emotionally charged, but good content. However you can be sure that the REAL audience that needs to be reached will not hear your message. They have their own ecochamber they're surrounded in.
That's why it comes down to the individual on these types of issues. As someone who grew up in a rural area, I got plenty of jokes against myself for being non white (im mixed - not black though). It's literally just a factor of exposure to other types of people. Racism will never be solved, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps towards improvements.
you are so, so spot on! problem here is all these corporates and PE sponsors saying they are socially responsible are trying to get good PR - never let a crisis go to waste. even Apollo and KKR will pretend to care
That's what I'm saying. I can't think of a specific company, but there has to be at least one in the S&P that doesn't necessarily care about what's going on. But will use whatever momentum they can to push whatever it is they need to push. Which takes away from the companies that truly do care and want to be a part of the change.
So true, never let a crisis go to waste.
Funny you mention that. My company has not said a single thing about current events (not in the SP 500 however). I was talking with my boss and she thought it was kinda sus since the company touts our "cultural diversity", which isn't wrong since we're relatively diverse.
Say something and the people dont like it, and youre attacked. Say nothing and youre still held accountable. Kind of a lose lose situation from an ownership prospective. Although I think saying something is definitely better than not.
LOL if you can, watch CNBC right now. They have Henry Kravis coming on to talk about KKR's efforts for diversity and how they are leading the charge... Should be a good one!
Change is good my friend. Too far is the wrong question. You should be asking how far we can or will go. At the very least, don't be on the wrong side of history.
I think the call to reduce funding for police departments around the country is definitely a bad idea.
How so? They've been defunding education for years.
All the smart people will leave places that defund security. After hearing the plans about how Minneapolis will dismantle the police department, people I know said they will go nowhere near Minneapolis in the future. They also said that they are glad that they don’t own any property in that area.
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