Breaking into investment banking from a career in engineering

ME: Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to look at this post. I wont keep this description long, I am a Technical Manager working for an offshore firm, have three years of work experience, a bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering, I have some project management experience and I am based in the UK, age: 25
PROBLEM: I work long hours when I am in the office and away from civilization for about three or four weeks when I am not working in the office. For the amount of work I do, I do not think I am financially compensated well, I do not get any job satisfaction from my current position. I have been thrown at the deep end for the most part of my career, but I have bounced back from them but again, the rewards have been pretty poor: I mean i still live with my parents and cant even afford to buy a decent car, I havent had a holiday in three years.
I dont mind working long hours unless there is brighter lights at the end of the tunnel and entry level positions will not bother me, I do not mind staying away from home or family if required. I dont mind even going as further as quitting my job and doing a financial course if required.
REASON FOR FORUM POST: I have no clue where to start in investment banking, I am not aware if I require further education at a Masters level or is my current degree and work experience enough to break in, What sort of level of employment should I aim for? How long would it take me to get to the big leagues? Any advice would help guys!

 

I am more into offshore services just now, I don't know about tonnes of money, certainly considerably more than minimum wage, its more about the job satisfaction really. Thanks for the advice holla_back. Would it be worth doing an analyst internship before heading out for an MBA? I have analyst positions available in my company in the finance and accounts section, would that be a good chance to get some experience?

 

Hi I am in a similar situation as you and was wondering what you managed to find out, if you made a move or if you are interested in start up as those are also considerations I am making with a similar background in engineering as well as public sector and M&A experiences for high tech, aerospace and defense. Please pm me!

Also well familiar with those remote roles and it is true if you want to do any heavy engineering you must leave the city!

Current Big 4 Management Consultant with an Engineering Background seeking new opportunities with more of an entrepreneurial focus in High-Tech, Energy, Capital Markets, M&A, and/or Venture Capital.
 

Not sure what your GPA is, but a petroleum engineering, or engineering background in general, helps significantly with MSF applications. I would look at the application deadlines for the top 15 MSF programs and then try to spend any and all extra time you may have before the respective deadlines to prepare for, and take, the GMAT/GRE. A high score coupled with a relatively solid petro engineering GPA should land you a spot in one of those programs. Once you are in, network your way into a banking job. Banks will do on campus recruiting at all of the top MSF programs.

 

"I would like to have some advice in which areas I need to focus on improving and learning to make myself more appearing candidate."

1: Indefinite articles.
2: Verb/tense agreement.

Since you were in engineering at a top school and clearly competed well, I know you won't take offense at my saying that the bar is high for non-English speakers. I know you don't want your future employers to get confused between "appearing" and "appealing", or "has" and "have". You're quite close to coming off as a native speaker in written communication -- now it's just the final 5% that will round you out. I recommend a Strunk's style guide, or a Little Brown guide to English grammar.

Also, I'm not sure how many "fields" there are in IB. IB is a field. You say you want to be an analyst; be an analyst.

 

Thanks Mis Ind. Grammar and spelling have been my weak spots. I didn't come to the states till high school. I know that's just an excuse. It was my fault that I didn't take the time in college to improve it. It wasn't that necessary when you are studying engineering in school. It is definitely important in the real world.

I'll work harder on that part. :)

 

Actually, I'm impressed by your faultless spelling, which is far better than most on this board. It's clear that you take the time to check every word you're not certain about, which is a great start.

 

Mba's aren't automatic restets!! This guy is hugely over simplifying how easy it is to get an IB position through an mba!!-very misleading! The truth is that most of the ppl who are successful at IB during mba recruiting are former accountants and consultants. Mba=/ IB. No way. This isn't to say that no one else gets IB positions, but it's not that easy!

 

My Dad is really into investing, and I find finance really interesting. I know the work will be easier, but I have a lot of drive, and spending 100+ hours per week on stuff doesn't scare me. I'll still apply to engineering jobs too. My only fear would be not getting any interviews because of my GPA (3.0 undergrad, 3.5 grad) ... do you guys think I'd be able to at least get interviews? By the way, by UofT I mean University of Toronto, it's the #1 school in Canada for engineering (and a lot of other subjects) and top 20 in the world.

 

Many BB's say that they accept associates with an MA/MS, but it appears that most IB associates have an MBA. It is also possible to get placed as an associate with no graduate work but that usually happens from the IB analyst program. I would'nt call it hopeless though, you need to sell yourself, if the BB's don't bite try the MM's or even the PE's.

 

A) Not nearly enough information to gauge your chances, plus you mentioned a huge spread of MBA programs.

B) Any of those schools will give you a good shot at becoming a Post-MBA Associate. Search for related threads. Job market five years from now is impossible to predict.

C) No idea

 

That is what I was thinking.

But would the masters be of any value if I want to go into Finance/IB anyways? Or does it never hurt to get it?

Any other advice would be appreciated!

 

I can't speak to IB - my guess is it doesn't differentiate you in a way that matters. I can tell you long term, it's a good thing to have. Given the banking climate these days, you may very well end up in a F500 role, and having a masters is often one of those "nice to have" or "must have" bullets on the requirements for Senior Manager / Director / VP level gigs. A lot of times it won't even matter what it's in, or where it's from. It ends up being one of those silly HR items on a checklist.

 

Bankers like engineering majors because engineers are generally hard-working and used to intense workloads. That being said, be prepared for the why IB? question with a convincing story.

 

with an MBA, your previous engineering background may pose questions (why the switch), but wouldn't necessarily disadvantage you. By taking MBA, you have already proven your resolve to switch to the business world. you will stand the highest chances at the technology coverage groups at BB banks, or some west coast tech outfit. I know many ex engineers in IB now (post MBA).

 

with an MBA, your previous engineering background may pose questions (why the switch), but wouldn't necessarily disadvantage you. By taking MBA, you have already proven your resolve to switch to the business world. you will stand the highest chances at the technology coverage groups at BB banks, or some west coast tech outfit. I know many ex engineers in IB now (post MBA).

 

That was my plan all along, I just feel like I'd be behind the curve trying to break into ib. I mean I'll be around 27 by time that would happen so older than a lot of new guys.

 

Keep in mind that post MBA you would come in as an associate, so 27 would actually be somewhere in the middle to younger side of the age ranges. With the way that banks have been hiring from business schools recently it seems like any top 10 program would give you a good shot at breaking in, provided you put in the time to network and prepare for interviews.

 

I've heard differing opinions on GPA leniency too, I also had a low GPA in engineering and I'm just going to not think about it now and just find out the answer by applying to schools.

Oh, by the way we'll need to get super high gmat scores to offset our GPAs. That's one thing I've heard over and over again.

 

I worked with a brilliant ex-engineer in the mining group. His knowledge of metallurgy made him indispensable. From what I have seen MBA seems important. Try to establish connections in the banking world.

 

Actually, I have a degree in Plastics Engineering (Manufacturing not chemistry). You mentioned that the one engineer you worked with was in the mining group. How should I target possible groups where I would have knowledge i.e. plastics?

 

you can enter IB from engineering. If fact, an engineering undergrad is actually preferred by most IB's over business, accounting, economics, and other.... from what I have seen. I was not an engineer but I know that engineers make great deal makers. You just have to show them you are interested.

As for pedigree, the most popular major for CEO's was engineering. More populare than business or economics combined... think about that. Those CEO's are your clients. What do you think they will be more impressed with....

Engineering will help you, not being in a top MBA program will hurt you.

 
animal:
Engineering will help you, not being in a top MBA program will hurt you.

what i meant by pedigree was a top program. they look for top 10s, considering you're not even in the top 50 it will be quite difficult.

and, as an MBA, you are too qualified to be an analyst and not qualified enough to be an associate from a non-top 10 with no IB experience.

 

Undergrad: Penn State - Plastics Engineering Grad: UNCG Bryan School - MBA

3 yrs. of project/development engineering at Plastics Manufacturing firm

5 months of Sales Engineer for a rubber/plastics company.

 

I am currently a MBA student at a Top School. I was a chemical engineer before school. Investment banks do like engineers because they are very analytical and can handle a lot of the modeling.

The school you attend is very important. Bankers do the recruiting more then HR. Bankers like to recruit from their banks so if you do not go to a finance school it will be hard to get any traction. I think you should check your Alumni database at your school and reach out to people who are currently working in a finance position in an investment bank. They could probably give you the best advice.

Part-time programs are not very popular so you might have to enter as an analyst, if not, you can always apply to another MBA program to get that name brand degree.

 

I believe its actually easier than with a business degree. The only thing is don't expect to ge easier questions (technically speaking). But if you can show that you made an effort to learn the basic valuation techniques, they like the analytical skills that come with an engineering degree. The majoy problem I see with your app. is the not-top50 MBA. I think your best shot is to get into a smaller firm (specialized boutique seems like a good idea), and after a year or two, apply to BB. my 2c

 

You aren't entirely done for Mfin or MSF cycles. Princeton and MIT (Two of the best programs) still are taking applications and I would think others probably are too. Here are the links for MIT and princeton. https://www.princeton.edu/bcf/graduate/prospective/ http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mfin/admissions/apply-here/schedule/ You will need to hurry up and take the gmat if you haven't already though. @TNA" could probably offer some better advice. Go and read a couple of his thread if you want.

 

Right, I have not taken the GMAT yet and frankly it's been a while since I have taken any test so I think I would need to prepare quite a bit. I also do not have any letters lined up, I can probably get one quickly but getting my second may be somewhat difficult (if people find out that you are seeking to leave company, you are released from company). Would it still be possible for me to get an MBA, even though I have not been a manager or been in company for 3-5 years? Or would it be better for me to do a MFin and go forward from there? From what I read the MFin would still start me off as an analyst, granted I might start at a bulge bracket with a MFin as opposed to a boutique (if I even get into a boutique) from where I am currently.

 

Also I will note that I am somewhat torn between MFin and MBA....it doesn't sound like I can get into a top MBA as easily as I could a MFin. Esp since I have slightly less than 2 years (I will have about 3 years if I go for the next cycle, or 2 years and a break of some sort). With ~2 years of work, will I have a pretty good shot at an MBA still? I am assuming MFin would be ok still even though I am experienced.

 

MBA from any of those schools is a surefire way to break into banking. Not sure how old you are, but you can probably do the same thing right out of UG with enough hard work. Do very well in classes and start steering yourself towards finance early on. If you really want it, you will find a way to make time to network.

 

I spoke with a CFO at a small ($200m) long/short sector hedge fund yesterday and he gave me some good advice. Essentially keep doing what I'm doing, maybe offer to work for cheap or free just to get experience, maybe go CFA or b-school.

I'm speaking with a PM at a distressed debt hedge fund next week who can hopefully answer some more technical questions and provide better insight.

I've started studying valuation and was wondering, if I built my own model would this be something acceptable to put on my resume? What about DCF or LBO? Say something on my resume like ""Independently studied valuation modeling and created samples that can be provided upon request" or something like that. Maybe bring a copy to an interview?

 

If you're apply to hedge funds or PE, i'll say 99% of the applicants should be able to work DCF and LBO blindfolded if they came from IB background and even coming out of most colleges, unless they are quants. I dont recommend you going to IB, as hiring within the domestic market is practically non-existent, perhaps you should try PWM or Equity Research to help you get a better understanding of the industry. You might be looked favorably if your current engineering job is within a specific field that ER are looking for(i.e healthcare / industrial goods). People say they want to be a trader or PM at HF, but most of them end up hating their jobs because it wasn't what they expected in the first place. Keep going through those books and online workshops you looked at, they will give you a good foundation or grounds in which you can talk to when speaking with interviewer or in general. and YES always try a spare CV with you.

All warfare is based on deception. - Art of War
 

Thanks for the tips. I'm interested in Asset/PW Management about as equally as IBD/PE, and realize that my chances of getting in the former are much higher, especially with some higher up contacts in the field. I'm speaking with people at hedge funds pretty much because someone gave me them as contacts and told me to speak with them, and I'm sure as hell not going to turn that opportunity down. I know I don't have a chance at getting into a place like a hedge fund - now. It's still interesting to speak with them about what they do, asset management generally, how they got there, and how I can position myself to get there if I so desire.

 

also just wanted to add....im most interested in Front office (corp finance-M&A or research, and i think with my research background this may be the easiest place to get a position).

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 
absinthe:
1) You MUST list your cumuluative GPA to be considered. If you took the SAT and did well list that too. 2) Cut your resume down to 1 page...they will not read a 5 page resume for an entry level position. It must be 1 page. Focus on work experience.

did not do the SAT but will be doing the GRE--should this score be listed under education?

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 

sorry also wanted to add that im considering on doing an MS in financial engineering (hopefully columbia), i dont have the money to pay for an mba tuition. also, does an MBA have a lot more value than the MSFE? and would an MSFE help in obtaining a front office position?

I will be also be doing the gre next week.

thanks again!

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 

As for the GRE, if you can beat all the asians who compile all the possible questions for the verbal section and cheat to get a 1500+ every time, then put it on your resume. If you cant break at least 1450, I wouldnt bother.

Array
 
Cries:
As for the GRE, if you can beat all the asians who compile all the possible questions for the verbal section and cheat to get a 1500+ every time, then put it on your resume. If you cant break at least 1450, I wouldnt bother.

lol, ya right. hmm. would you happen to know the link to those magic verbal questions :P

(ive been studying for about 30 days :( memorizing over 10k words -- barrons word list is a beast)

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 
Cries:
As for the GRE, if you can beat all the asians who compile all the possible questions for the verbal section and cheat to get a 1500+ every time, then put it on your resume. If you cant break at least 1450, I wouldnt bother.

How the fuck is that cheating? They can't possibly memorize all the words in the world anyways.

800 in math and 580+ in English is good enough for a lot of top finance programs.

 
Cries:
Taking it in 2 days (which happens to be 3 days before I start full-time work). I may not be asian, but half my MSF class was - and a real banker is never ill-prepared.

where are you working? (if you dont mind me asking :P )

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 

Holy fuck. FIVE? As a recent grad? Cut that shit down. Seasoned professionals with decades of experience in different industries don't go above 2.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 

the fuckkk?!! why is your resume five pages bro??

I hope you understand that's retarded. You have an engineering background, you have a lot of choices you just gotta network your ass off.

Good luck and please edit the SHIT out of your resume so the person who has the misfortune of reading it isn't tempted to throw it away cause he/she is lazy as fuck (regardless of how impressive it is).

 
expenseaccounts:
You're delusional if you think University of Toronto is top 5 engineering/science. It isn't even top 30.

The only good school in Canada is McGill, and even that's suspect.

Go fuck a mountie.

I swear you were born out your mom's ass. He meant, top 5 in Canada dipshit. Regardless, UofT is a very good school.

To the thread starter, buddy make a

  1. 1 page resume following the mergers and inquisitions template
  2. Apply for masters in UK or US. Breaking into IB in toronto directly from engineering is very very difficult especially if you are out of school. I am an engineering graduate from McGill myself working in IB. A masters in US or UK would help you break into the biggest job markets.
  3. Be focussed on what you want to do. For, IB you are better off doing a plain vanilla masters in finance or accounting & finance offered by European schools. If you are more interested in a quant trading role, you could consider doing an MFE.
  4. PM me for further questions
 
expenseaccounts:
You're delusional if you think University of Toronto is top 5 engineering/science. It isn't even top 30.

The only good school in Canada is McGill, and even that's suspect.

Go fuck a mountie.

dude its ranked it 6th (sorry my mistake) overall in north america..1st in canada by US news (a reputable ranking agency)

1)mit 2) stanford 3) uc-b 4) caltech 5) carnegie mellon 6) uoft

check your facts before you post nonsense

http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities/articles/2010/…-

"...the art of good business, is being a good middle man, putting people togeather. It's all about honor and respect."
 
  1. Please post your stuff to google docs or razume or something. It's incredibly difficult to view jpgs through WSO - so much so that I can't give you advice in its current state.
  2. To echo everyone else... FIVE PAGES?!?!?
  3. Regarding MBA: Should have applied for the Skoll Program. Why didn't you?
  4. IB in Toronto out of Engineering is extremely difficult. Only guy I know who made it was an Indy, and he had been preparing for IB since first year. And I knew a lot of people.. The best students went into consulting, nearly no one got IB.
  5. Don't listen to expenseaccounts, he jelly. UofT Engineering is #1 Canada, Top10 in the world in every reputable ranking.
 

geeze man, you've got a full screen post with 3 basic questions, so much as to "keeping to point"

Q: Best way? A: I suggest you find out exactly what you want to do. IBD, S&T, and Research are all very different areas. So I don't think you've done your homework

Q: OpearationS? Have you read the entire forum regarding BO ->FO? If not, read.

Q: courses and scam? Nothing is scam. But you must realize going to Harvard won't gurantee you a job either. So it's all about timing and luck. I think for me, recruiting experience was about 40% luck, 40% timing, and 20% my skills.

 

I tend to think I'm a pretty unlucky person and everything I do is through hard work. I never get lucky - sometimes I wonder why my life sucks so much. I'd say I got my job with 95% skill and 5% luck.

 
Cafe_Orange:
I tend to think I'm a pretty unlucky person and everything I do is through hard work. I never get lucky - sometimes I wonder why my life sucks so much. I'd say I got my job with 95% skill and 5% luck.

your point is....?

 

my two cents is that you shouldn't narrow myself to particular options within IB due to some preconceptions about where you think engineers would fit best...the two analysts who sit next to me were both engineering majors (cambridge & northwestern)... that being said, there's probably really no way to break in as an analyst since you have no finance background and you're already out of undergrad...you'll probably run into the same problems if you try to get into any area of finance...you'll have to break into banking via recruiting, and you're only going to get access to that if u head to a decent bschool...

 

i say getting your MBA will give you the best chance, other then landing an incredible contact.

OR, try getting into another division of a BB (risk, strategy, just try to stay way from IT type stuff) and network a LOT. then go get your MBA and apply for a IB position or whatever you want.

 

Back from the dead!....are there any updates from the OP?

I'm in the same position as the OP was. Currently I'm level II CFA candidate about to take the test and having the hardest time breaking into finance. Everyone wants some kind of finance background. My sentiments are that even pursuing the charter means nothing to most firms.

Any recent, up-to-date advice for an engineer trying to break-in? TIA guys.

 

I had the same dilemma not too long ago supershick...I was an aerospace engineer...graduated from a decent engineering school...was working for the government doing research/engineering and was looking to make a transition into finance. From my research, I realized MBA was the only credible way to go. And given that nearly 80% of the MBAs are career changers, I (and am sure you will too) fit right in. Like previously mentioned though, make sure you understand what you're getting yourself into so that you dont sound all over the place while talking to the recruiters. I was able to make the transition into M&A fairly easily and I've seen plenty of my friends go from completely unrelated fields into S&T, Corp. Fin right out to B-school etc.

 

If you are an engineer, the best bet for you in my opinion is to join smaller firms that focus on tech(defense, software, etc) and perhaps work for smaller amount of salary for a while then transfer out to bigger firms.

I have seen several people doing that because you really just need the first IB job that sets your path.

 

Look, i dont think anyone on this forum gets sponsored for MBAs (although a few exceptions may exist). So don't think you're alone when you're paying for b-school.

I really think your best bet is to rock the GMAT, go to a top 15 b-school, and go in as an associate (assuming you wanna do IBD).

There are many in your situation, and it's very tough to enter into banking without previous exp.... or exceptional networking.. and at the same time, even if you do get a job, it'll most likely be as an entry level analyst with 22 year olds

 

Sure. Did you take AP Econ in high school? If so, you should have the prereqs for most intro Accounting and Finance courses. Show the banks you're at least interested in this stuff- change your schedule and sign up for one.

Know there's a lot less grade inflation, but we'd be looking for at least a 3.4 GPA in state school Engineering for you to be competitive with a typical Econ or Liberal Arts major from an Ivy League school carrying a 3.65 GPA.

Do the banks recruit at UMass? You need to start making some friends in industry.

 

I too go to a non-target state school and honestly you should forget about getting a job as an analyst right after college. Really though. It doesn't matter that you're an engineering major. IBs don't really care about your major when hiring new grads, they care about the school you go to and I'm not trying to diss UMass (my school's not better) but it's far far off their radar. Your best bet it probably to get a job at an F500 company and then try to get into a top MBA program then go to IB from there. Realistically to have a non-zero chance at IB right now you'd have to network your ass like it's a full time job and most likely you'd still end up with nothing. Take that time that you'd waste trying to get an IB job and use it to get straight A's and ace the GMAT instead with an eye on a top MBA in the near future. Again, I'm not trying to put down UMass, I'm in almost the same situation as you. I'm just saying have realistic expectations.

 

^^^with an attitude like that, you have absolutely no shot whatsoever.

Nontargets make it every single year(I just did) with networking and some hustle. Don't let that idiot get you down. Just work hard. It will be a tough year, but it's not impossible by any means. Umass is a big enough school that you definitely have some alumni, you just have to find them.

That kid above me wrote a bunch of overexaggerated bullshit. It is definitely possible if you want it bad enough.

 
leveRAGE.:
^^^with an attitude like that, you have absolutely no shot whatsoever.

Nontargets make it every single year(I just did) with networking and some hustle. Don't let that idiot get you down. Just work hard. It will be a tough year, but it's not impossible by any means. Umass is a big enough school that you definitely have some alumni, you just have to find them.

That kid above me wrote a bunch of overexaggerated bullshit. It is definitely possible if you want it bad enough.

So you think that NYU = UMass when it comes to finance opportunities?? Riiiight.
 

Disagree. 1/3 of the folks are smart non-target folks. 1/3 of the folks are intelligent people from target schools. 1/3 are dumb people from target schools. The smart people care how intelligent you are, the remaining 1/3 care about your school. Lucky for you, this number has come down from 1/4-1/4-1/2 when I applied in 2007 (layoffs).

You'd have an edge getting into research and some of the more complicated products for trading as an engineer. Is it guaranteed? No. Will networking your butt off make a huge difference? Yes, if your GPA is between a 3.3 and a 3.6.

 
So you think that NYU = UMass when it comes to finance opportunities?? Riiiight.
UMass Engineer w/ a 3.6 GPA > NYU poli sci w/ 3.6 GPA for 60-70% of areas in trading and research.

Engineering is not a degree for pansies. If that was all I knew about the two candidates, I'd pick the kid from UMass. (Poli Sci vs. Poli Sci would clearly be NYU; I'd have to check US News' engineering rankings for EE vs. EE).

 
IlliniProgrammer:
So you think that NYU = UMass when it comes to finance opportunities?? Riiiight.
UMass Engineer w/ a 3.6 GPA > NYU poli sci w/ 3.6 GPA for 60-70% of areas in trading and research.

Engineering is not a degree for pansies. If that was all I knew about the two candidates, I'd pick the kid from UMass. (Poli Sci vs. Poli Sci would clearly be NYU; I'd have to check US News' engineering rankings for EE vs. EE).

Well I assumed since he posted this in the IB forum he wants to be an analyst in IBD. And I think Stern would have an edge over UMass engineering for IBD. But I guess he'd need to post his GPA for a real assessment.
 

Given that he's in engineering and he's a junior, he probably isn't 100% sure what he wants yet. He probably doesn't even know which group does what if he's anything like I was. I had watched CNBC and thought they were all research analysts making stock recommendations up until a few weeks before the interviews.

Stern is probably at parity for most quality engineering programs for trading and research, but the difficulty of getting a 3.6 GPA at UMass Engineering is a lot tougher and that's going to factor heavily for a lot of interviewers, so I think the edge is still with a high GPA in engineering especially for more quantitative roles.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
Given that he's in engineering and he's a junior, he probably isn't 100% sure what he wants yet. He probably doesn't even know which group does what if he's anything like I was. I had watched CNBC and thought they were all research analysts making stock recommendations up until a few weeks before the interviews.

Stern is probably at parity for most quality engineering programs for trading and research, but the difficulty of getting a 3.6 GPA at UMass Engineering is a lot tougher and that's going to factor heavily for a lot of interviewers, so I think the edge is still with a high GPA in engineering especially for more quantitative roles.

I probably sounded way too pessimistic in my first post (I'm pessimistic in general). My real point was that us non-targets have to recognize it is an uphill battle for ANYONE and an even more extreme uphill battle coming from a non-target. And I simply wanted to convey that it's also worth the effort to examine all options in light of the low probability of getting a first year analyst job out of college. My point was there are other paths into high level finance other than the "traditional" way and he should consider the other paths too. That's all.
 

As someone who knows kids who did engineering and kids who did finance at UMASS, I honestly couldn't tell you which would be better. From what I hear from the finance kids, on campus recruiting is almost non existent, and their career services site is worthless. However, I haven't heard that many great things about the engineering program either. Having said that I have no idea how it places into finance compared to engineering positions and I only have the perspective from a few friends who attended

 

As someone who knows kids who did engineering and kids who did finance at UMASS, I honestly couldn't tell you which would be better. From what I hear from the finance kids, on campus recruiting is almost non existent, and their career services site is worthless. However, I haven't heard that many great things about the engineering program either. Having said that I have no idea how it places into finance compared to engineering positions and I only have the perspective from a few friends who attended

 

Thank you guys for taking time to reply.

It all comes down to how hungry one is and how hard they are willing to work. I am currently at a 3.2 GPA right now; entering my junior year I have almost half of my credits left to graduate to complete. For just an EE its 122 credits for me its 138 as I am a dual major.

My number one priority is to work hard, stay focused, and try to get my GPA as close to a 3.5 or even above. I would be very happy if I can graduate magna cum laude while completing 2 majors in 4 years.

I will also try to network hard this year as some of you have said. Hopefully a IB internship is in my books for next summer.

Target or Non-Target....It all comes down to the individual IMO. Yeah brand name has its value and some people get head starts, BUT with a can-do attitude, hard work, some networking, and a hint of luck I think any individual can be successful in their field of choice (not just IB, anything in life).

I'm hungry. I dream big. I want to accomplish my goals and I am working hard will continue to work harder.

Thanks and I would appreciate any more advice/tips!

 
Big Dreams:
Thank you guys for taking time to reply.

It all comes down to how hungry one is and how hard they are willing to work. I am currently at a 3.2 GPA right now; entering my junior year I have almost half of my credits left to graduate to complete. For just an EE its 122 credits for me its 138 as I am a dual major.

My number one priority is to work hard, stay focused, and try to get my GPA as close to a 3.5 or even above. I would be very happy if I can graduate magna cum laude while completing 2 majors in 4 years.

I will also try to network hard this year as some of you have said. Hopefully a IB internship is in my books for next summer.

Target or Non-Target....It all comes down to the individual IMO. Yeah brand name has its value and some people get head starts, BUT with a can-do attitude, hard work, some networking, and a hint of luck I think any individual can be successful in their field of choice (not just IB, anything in life).

I'm hungry. I dream big. I want to accomplish my goals and I am working hard will continue to work harder.

Thanks and I would appreciate any more advice/tips!

You say you work hard. How would you explain your GPA to an interviewer?
 
Big Dreams:
Thank you guys for taking time to reply.

It all comes down to how hungry one is and how hard they are willing to work. I am currently at a 3.2 GPA right now; entering my junior year I have almost half of my credits left to graduate to complete. For just an EE its 122 credits for me its 138 as I am a dual major.

My number one priority is to work hard, stay focused, and try to get my GPA as close to a 3.5 or even above. I would be very happy if I can graduate magna cum laude while completing 2 majors in 4 years.

I will also try to network hard this year as some of you have said. Hopefully a IB internship is in my books for next summer.

Target or Non-Target....It all comes down to the individual IMO. Yeah brand name has its value and some people get head starts, BUT with a can-do attitude, hard work, some networking, and a hint of luck I think any individual can be successful in their field of choice (not just IB, anything in life).

I'm hungry. I dream big. I want to accomplish my goals and I am working hard will continue to work harder.

Thanks and I would appreciate any more advice/tips!

This....

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

Do you like EE/CS? There are so many developer jobs at startups right now. My point is, you will have an easier time focusing on getting a good job as a developer or with a tech giant since you have that sort of background. Not to mention, it doesn't seem like you know too much about IB. Tech companies are more meritocratic, and if you can crank out code you can get a job nowadays. Not to mention, the startup scene is big in Boston and NY, so you could take of your choice of where you want to be working.

Why do you want to bust your ass to get a banking gig, where you work a ridiculous amount of hours crunching numbers in excel, when you have the potential to work for a startup firm where you can learn a lot about developing a product and being a part of a lean business?

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/finance-dictionary/what-is-london-interbank-offer-rate-libor>LIBOR</a></span>:
Do you like EE/CS? There are so many developer jobs at startups right now. My point is, you will have an easier time focusing on getting a good job as a developer or with a tech giant since you have that sort of background. Not to mention, it doesn't seem like you know too much about IB. Tech companies are more meritocratic, and if you can crank out code you can get a job nowadays. Not to mention, the startup scene is big in Boston and NY, so you could take of your choice of where you want to be working.

Why do you want to bust your ass to get a banking gig, where you work a ridiculous amount of hours crunching numbers in excel, when you have the potential to work for a startup firm where you can learn a lot about developing a product and being a part of a lean business?

Thats a very good point and I have gotten that response before.

  1. That's just not what I want to do. You are right about everything you said but... Yes I might seem like I have no knowledge in the field of IB ...and that is true. I recently just got the idea/vision of what I want to do. I still have 2 years before graduation to learn as much as I can and explore and that is the first reason I posted on the forum so I can get some input.

  2. I want to bust my ass. I want to atleast try for it. If I try and fail its a different story. But if I never try...I will regret it. And knock on wood say things don't work out I have an EE/CS dual degree to fall back on (It has value). I will be 21 when i graduate so lets see; there is time.

 
Big Dreams:
Now that you say it...I will look into it. It sounds great. Maybe join one this year...and after I learn a bit...maybe with some basic business courses and a little outside research start one my senior year. This will be great both ways ...I learn more...and its some good leadership experience!
Why do you want to do investment banking all the sudden? Is it because you want to make a lot of money? There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a lot of money (let's face it that's why everybody does it), but it doesn't seem like you've had any interest in finance in the past.
LIBOR:
Do you like EE/CS? There are so many developer jobs at startups right now. My point is, you will have an easier time focusing on getting a good job as a developer or with a tech giant since you have that sort of background. Not to mention, it doesn't seem like you know too much about IB. Tech companies are more meritocratic, and if you can crank out code you can get a job nowadays. Not to mention, the startup scene is big in Boston and NY, so you could take of your choice of where you want to be working.

Why do you want to bust your ass to get a banking gig, where you work a ridiculous amount of hours crunching numbers in excel, when you have the potential to work for a startup firm where you can learn a lot about developing a product and being a part of a lean business?

See, that's more what I was trying to say. With no finance knowledge or demonstrated interest thus far he's better off focusing on getting a job in industry and looking to get into a financial role later. It fits more with his background. I don't know why being honest is so controversial.
 

@ Thurnis I think its because you just come off as a douche seriously, idk who you are or really what you've done, but I had a chance to look through your posts and nothing you've ever said on this forum is remotely helpful. I mean look at what you post, you're never answering tech. questions or even 'calling on experiences' you've had, so why don't you tell us why you want to work in banking... seems to me like you're just another kid that has read M&I and want the paycheck

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 
BepBep12:
@ Thurnis I think its because you just come off as a douche seriously, idk who you are or really what you've done, but I had a chance to look through your posts and nothing you've ever said on this forum is remotely helpful. I mean look at what you post, you're never answering tech. questions or even 'calling on experiences' you've had, so why don't you tell us why you want to work in banking... seems to me like you're just another kid that has read M&I and want the paycheck
That's nice, but I don't care what you think. And you talk as if you've given any advice in this thread. You're right, you don't know me. I'm the one just wanting the paycheck? Please. Get real. This thread isn't about me you should stay on topic.
 

I don't see a douche, but I do see a negatively resistant attitude. A lot of pointed questions about the why/how to non-target folks who landed in banking rather than being supportive. I sometimes have issues with this too, but it's important to see the big picture. The more non-targets we get into banking, the better we're going to be at breaking the tribe of ivy league liberal arts lacrosse bros and replacing them with a better and more effective elite.

Oh well, it's time to end the lynch mob. College kids have some issues from time to time and that's ok. Sometimes, even professionals have them. :D

You say you work hard. How would you explain your GPA to an interviewer?
The 3.2 GPA leaves much to be desired, but the fact is that OP is likely 1 standard deviation above average in his major. The average engineering major has a 2.8 GPA. This is not a function of effort or knowledge but rather of the fact that in 95% of engineering programs, professors curve to a B- average.

To make a compelling sale to S&T or Research against the benchmark- a 3.65 GPA Cornell Econ major- for a summer analyst position, I would want to see a 3.4-3.5 GPA. The 3.2 is not an indication of laziness- it's just not the indication of stand-out excellence I would want to see before sticking my neck out (and risking future shots for other non-target kids) to try and get you into the interview schedule.

Figure out a way to get the GPA up to a (roundable) 3.4 by the end of the fall semester- in time for Spring recruiting- or start focusing more on a tech internship. A background in signal processing and two years at Google or Intel would make you a great candidate for high frequency trading.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
I see a lot of angst, negativity, and at least one or two sour grapes. That's not the constructive response to disappointment. You want to be the kind of guy who can get knocked to the floor but still gets back up and keeps fighting. Those are the kind of state school grads who get job offers.
This is so stupid. All I was trying to say was it would be easier for him to get a job in industry, go to business school, and then enter IB as an associate. Everyone on this fucking site thinks your career is over unless you become an analyst right after college. There may be better paths that are more open to him right now. Is it really too negative to say that? I know a few partners in IB that started in industry. I think it's actually encouraging to know that in the likely event you don't become an analyst straight out of college there are other ways into IB.
 

Damn. This thread took the turn it was not suppose to. Back to the topic.

Quick question regarding IB Analyst Summer Internships:

  1. Location: Will there be these type of internships be in the financial district in Boston or around? In terms of the NY ones ...will I apply the same way: Online or however the process is?

  2. Duration: When do these typically start and end. My Spring semester tends to end around the 2nd or 3rd week of May and I am of until Sept 1st.

  3. Time to Apply: When should I be on the lookout to find these and apply? For regular engineering internships I would start looking around Feb and start applying. Is this the same for IB Analyst Summer Internships? When do they typically start to post gigs for the summer?

Also this might seem like a stupid question (maybe I am not even saying it right) but from Boutique to Middle-Market to Bulge Bracket one would say an internship at a BB would be the biggest and most beneficial ....but does it really matter that much? ...If one gets a summer internship at a MM or a Boutique should they accept and run?

 

internet arguing = fail and i'm partially responsible, but were're (myself included) are / did make pointless posts so.. lets just end this. okay? good talk. team on 3.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 

Ok blastoise, the first trolls were kinda funny, with two engineers who can laugh at themselves.

I know where Thurnis is coming from with the negatively resistant attitude. I have dealt with some of the same issues. Thankfully those issues also kept me out of cults and from wasting more time and money listening to self-promotion experts like Tim Ferriss. Working in the Peace Corps is going to teach Thurnis how to be a team player in the same way that I had to learn from Water Polo in HS. When he gets out, he is going to come into interviews as someone who's spent two years working to better the lives of the people around him, and he is going to ooze charm, a can-do attitude, and a positive vibe.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
Ok blastoise, the first trolls were kinda funny, with two engineers who can laugh at themselves.

I know where Thurnis is coming from with the negatively resistant attitude. I have dealt with some of the same issues. Thankfully those issues also kept me out of cults and from wasting more time and money listening to self-promotion experts like Tim Ferriss. Working in the Peace Corps is going to teach Thurnis how to be a team player in the same way that I had to learn from Water Polo in HS. When he gets out, he is going to come into interviews as someone who's spent two years working to better the lives of the people around him, and he is going to ooze charm, a can-do attitude, and a positive vibe.

But in all seriousness: It is very very difficult to think positively right now. This recession makes me wonder if there's ever going to be good jobs again for people my age that attend non-elite schools. Part of it is my own paranoia, but it seems like everywhere I look opportunities are closed to me already and I'm not exclusively referring to IB. This is the absolute worst time to be a 20 year old as far the future is concerned. My school is so incredibly overlooked by everyone outside of the city it's in. I want to do the Peace Corps because if my professional career is going to be mundane or nonexistent I want to be able to have done something interesting.
 
Thurnis Haley:
But in all seriousness: It is very very difficult to think positively right now. This recession makes me wonder if there's ever going to be good jobs again for people my age that attend non-elite schools.
No. In fact there won't be any jobs for folks who attend elite schools pretty soon. The world is running out of energy and it is probably going to get worse before it gets better. At least you're not graduating with $200K in debt.
Part of it is my own paranoia, but it seems like everywhere I look opportunities are closed to me already and I'm not exclusively referring to IB. This is the absolute worst time to be a 20 year old as far the future is concerned.
It was worse in the '30s.
My school is so incredibly overlooked by everyone outside of the city it's in. I want to do the Peace Corps because if my professional career is going to be mundane or nonexistent I want to be able to have done something interesting.
Good for you.
 

It is good you are looking for some input and options, but I just don't think you are giving tech a chance. Even if you don't like CS, you can learn a lot about business doing product management at a startup or big tech firm like Google. My own opinion is that you spent two summers doing UNIX work for a F500 company, didn't love it, and now you are writing off that sort of career path. I think you should broaden your search in tech to focus on a startup. Focus on a company that is developing a product you really like and who is looking for your specific skill set.

Most MBA programs (at least, a top 20, full time MBA program) won't consider you unless you have some work experience. Investment banks will typically hire from the top 20 for both MBA and ugrad. It is going to be tough for you to break into the industry. Don't get me wrong, it is doable. But you are going to have to put in some serious time networking. Most banks have their offices in NY, so if you want to do trading/research/banking, you will need to make trips to NY to network with people. Boston has asset management firms, so you could get lucky and find a research role in Boston, but that is about it. You say you don't want to be a 9-5 engineer, but working in banking for two years is working 9-?, doing a lot of routine and monotonous work. Occasionally, you will work on a big deal or you might get to meet an executive team or work on an exciting model, but you will also need to put in grueling hours for unexciting work. Definitely read a lot more about WS careers before you decide to pursue one, and definitely take a broader look at tech, since you will have an easier time, and frankly, might enjoy working in that industry more.

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
 

Quite a few engineers are hired by Wall Street.

I personally think Engineering (or Math, CS and Physics) with a few Econ/Finances courses is the ideal undergraduate major. I work on a physical energy trading desk and while we won't always hire an engineer over a finance major, all else equal I'll take the engineer--getting an A in Accounting is one thing but getting a A/B in a reputable Thermodynamics or E&M class is another.

Here is my advice.

  1. Make sure you have a good story of "why finance". This should be corroborated with your personal interests and extracurriculars. No one wants to hear that you are sick of the "9-5" engineering job since MANY people in finance would love to have those hours.

  2. Be social. Engineers tend to have a stigma of being nerdy and reclusive. Finance isn't rocket science and the way you fit with desk/team matters more than how fast you can calculate viscosity of a non-Newtonian fluid on a rotating vacuum disk.

  3. Be Analytical. My sound like a contradiction of #2 but since you are an engineer, a certain comfortability with numbers/math is expected. Make sure you have a firm grasp of basic probability/statistics. Knowing a programming language (C++/VBA) is always a plus as well.

 

Thanks for your answer.

I believe it's too late for me to get an internship for this summer. Would it be impossible to score a full time position in September having these odds against me?

 

I like hiring engineering majors as they are often very good problem solvers. You can teach someone material and domain expertise can be developed over time. I cannot teach someone to be a good problem solver.

If you're smart, have good grades, and are attending a target school… then you can compete for any internship/entry level job offered.

My group likes to hire talent.

 

How would you feel about engineers who have prior engineering internships and are applying for SA? Would that look bad? The reason I'm asking is because I'm a sophomore and I'm having trouble landing a finance related internship for this summer, so I was thinking of doing something in engineering for the sake of being active this summer and using that money to fund my personal trading account. The rest of my resume shows that I am interested in finance though (clubs & other activities).

 

you still might have a chance if you have a good gpa. Unfortunately you really messed up by not getting an internship over the summer.

So my advice to you would be to network your ass off.

But i'm not even in the industry yet, so take my advice with a grain of salt

 

This might sound harsh, but as a second year you should have it sewn up by now. If you don't have a finance degree and your goal is to get in to IB then why don't you have an internship under your belt? With your background you could differentiate yourself for sure

 

Unfortunately, Terry has an awful career center. It's hard to go from there to any investment bank. Try Houlihan Lokey and SunTrust Robinson Humphrey. Both are local and are willing to look at UGA grads. Also, on the other side of the wall, look at the Atlanta private wealth divisions of GS, MS, BS, and ML. It's much easier to get into private wealth than IB with a non-target local MBA. I know GS's Atlanta office hires people out of UGA as long as you're white, male, and Southern. Ditto the Atlanta branch of Wachovia Securities, if you really want to go there.

 

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