How do people in IBD manage their stress? and a life balance?
Repeating Excel stuffs..
Trying to make a pitch book more beautiful..
Few days without working late nights..
Getting pressures from either a boss or VPs..
I'm wondering how do the people in IBD manage such a lot of stress.
There of course, is several compensations including a strong will for promotion, relatively high salary, respect from other people, and (maybe) interest for his/her job..
But considering the lack of time, it seems that IBD people are impossible to do other things for their own lives. I don't think the compensations listed above can help bankers get rid of their stress completely. Is their other way that IBD bankers relieve their stress?
And besides, how can they live without a balance on their lives?
There is no time for other activities, they just have time for work and sleep(and a bit of time for their meals).
Through murders and executions mostly.
Not to start a dick measuring competition, but banking stress is absolutely nothing compared to trading stress where you can literally lose millions of dollars on a slight goof up. Such level of careless, which costs traders millions of dollars goes through several iterations in investment banking. Unless you're an MD, there's very little you can do that can massively fuck up group.
You're either exaggerating or someone is trying to scare you by quoting an inflated number of hours that you work in IB. True, it's not a great balance as an analyst, but at ~70 hours in a normal week (which you can accomplish in most groups), you still have plenty of time to yourself to hang out with friends, go out on the town, etc. After your analyst stint, hours start taking a steady trajectory downwards whether you go into PE / HF or stay in banking.
Sure, you'll have friends that work less than you do, but when you're not in the office, you have the resources to do pretty much anything you want.
I was under the impression a normal week was 80-90 hours and busy weeks were easily over a 100, but obviously, you know more since you actually work in IB.
How often would you say you have these 70 hour weeks?
Most people are. Mainly because banking analysts love to wear their hours as a badge of honor.
I'd say that the plurality of weeks is between 65 and 70 hours, but the interspersion of a couple 80-110 hour weeks brings up the average.
I'm speaking in generalities here, but for the average banking group on the street:
Light work week (~15% of the time): 60 hours Average work week (~50% of the time): 70 hours Heavy work week (~25% of the time): 90 hours You're-getting-crushed week (~10% of the time): 100-110 hours
70? That's just not true (though I wish it was).
Can't speak to Europe, but I can assure you that 70 hours is a fairly uniform average across most groups on the street, with the exception of a few well-known sweatshops.
I'm going to agree with North Sider. At work we have access to see who is currently logged in. After reading these forums, it would surprise you to see how few people are left around midnight sometimes. That being said, it does seem like the same few group/names are always logged in. And every group is going to have weeks where they just get crushed due to the nature of the capital markets.
I will note that no matter how little or how much someone works, they will probably say that they work a ton just to fit in with the other analysts, or to reinforce an outsider's perception of IB's killer lifestyle. It's always funny to run across two analysts that both don't work as much as some of the more intense coverage groups. "How much do you work?" "Oh you know, typical hours" "Killer hours, huh!" "Yeah!!!" "Though sometimes I go home, you know, earlier..." "Oh yea, me too..." ::sigh of relief::
I would be interested to meet people from my firm that worked as analysts during the crazy 2006/2007 years so I could compare. I bet those hours were consistently longer for sure.
For sure, hours c.2007 were much longer, but pay was also much higher. These days we're reverting to much more long-term averages with pay and hours. IB analysts always boast about their killer weeks, but they never talk about the average ones where they work 60 hours. That creates the false perception that the average week looks pretty similar to the killer week, which just isn't true.
The other problem is that above, say, 50 hours, it becomes increasingly difficult to estimate how many hours you worked in a week. IB analysts hear numbers like 80-90 hours quoted all the time, so they just go with that when people ask them; but how often to you actually take a tally on how many hours you spend in the office? If I asked an IB analyst on the spot to tell me how many hours he/she worked this week, I guarantee it would be something in the 70-90 range, for no reason other than that's what seems standard. However, I wouldn't even put +/- 10% precision on that guess.
For example, when I was an intern and we were paid hourly, the HR software would tally up the number of hours we worked. I'd get to the end of weeks where I was pretty sure that I worked longer than anyone else in the office (including FT analysts), so I expected to see tallies in the 100+ hour range. Many times, I was surprised to see things come in at around 90 hours during those weeks. There's no way that the FT analysts in that office were working any more than 80 during those weeks.
And, let's be clear, 80 hours is a ton of time:
Say you come in at 10 AM and leave at 10 PM all five days in a week. You'd have to book 20 hours over the weekend just to bring your tally to 80! And I can guarantee you that the average banking analyst is not pulling 20 hours over the average weekend.
100 hours is more than 14 hours per day. So if you have any time whatsoever to do anything other than be in the office, you are not working 100 hours. If you watch TV at home ever, you are probably not working 100 hours. If you go to the bar with friends ever, you're probably not working 100 hours. So, if you've seen any of your IB friends this week, you can rest assured that they are not booking 100 hours.
The 9 - 2 am Monday through Thursday, 9 - 9 Friday, and 12 - 8 on Saturday & Sunday schedule was pretty common for me my first year and that still allowed me to go out twice in the week. It really just depends on how much sleep your body needs to function. I completely agree that the average is lower than is often reported, but there are some groups I know where kids are logging significantly more all the time and I still end up seeing them out boozing on the weekends...
NS, what you're talking about may be true in the plurality of cases, but there are a larger number of sweatshops than people think. I have never booked less than a 100 hour week in banking. Most of my weeks are 110-120, with the occasional 130+. My worst week was 138. You can easily get into a group with these hours without knowing it beforehand.
My average week is 9-2 M-thurs, 9-10 Fri, 10-12 S/S. I always knew this was a bit heavy, but it's not that uncommon.
It is really hard for me to judge how bad the hours are for analysts these days since the amount of deals seems to have substantially decreased, but new staffing levels in theory reflect this. I will say that I rarely get emails past 11pm from the investment bankers that we engage to sell our companies. There were a number of instances recently where files were added to the dataroom between midnight and 3am, but those were few and far between. So in summary, you really can't look at 5-year old or even 2-year old data points to accurate access how hours are today, they change with the markets like everything else.
Damn, if those hours are true, I should gtfo out asap and lateral to one of the US offices. I generally get in at 9am and leave between 12pm-2am (MO-TH) and 9am to 10pm/11pm on FR. Moreover, the majority of analysts and a few associates in my group are in the office for at least one day on the weekend (typically 1pm - 7/8pm), usually even both days (analysts). I'm a first year though, but I can't see it improving that much in the second year.
I would say that the typical work week is more like 80-85 hours, whereas 60 hours never happened to me or any other analyst in my group.
Definitely not the average in the U.S., from my sample of bankers across the non-sweatshop groups.
70 hours!
I almost never leave before midnight and average 95 hours a week with regular 100+ hour weeks.. but I am also at a well known sweat shop
The known sweat shops are a completely different story. But for the most part, you know what you're signing up for. Outside of those groups, banking hours are radically overstated.
70 - absolutely not the norm from what I have seen
mostly the first year is what kills you. gets much better each year though. I guess 100 hour weeks are possible across all levels as are 70 hours (even at well known sweatshops).However, generally during the week there is virtually no time to do anything else than work.
I tend to take it with a large pinch of salt when I hear analysts say they are pulling 100 hour weeks, every week (pretty sure I've seen some people on WSO claiming to have done that for two straight years). In reality, working 100 hour weeks mean you have absolutely no time to do anything else, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but analysts serially overestimate how much time they spend working.
Interestingly, the slightly more senior guys at my firm say that working hours for juniors weren't really any worse pre-recession, and they think that work actually used to be less stressful. A big reason for this is that during the boom years, M&A deals tended to be a lot easier to execute (outlook was very positive, capital was easy to obtain, and hence, negotiations were a lot more straightforward)
lol @70 a week 50% of the time... maybe at UBS ;)
At multiple coverage groups at BBs/boutiques.
Guys, can we make some names of these BB groups and boutiques?
I actually kept track of how much I was working (i.e. in the office, not travelling) during my internship. Average was about 75 hours at a top BB in London with maximum being 94, minimum being 72.
Thanks for the sanity. From the outside, you always hear numbers like 100 hours quoted, but, in my experience, that usually just comes from bankers seriously underestimating how much work 100 hours is.
100 hours happen in the final phase of big deals with lean deal teams a lot but most of the year you will work sub 100 hours for sure. Asatar pretty much gives the accurate account (at least for London)
I don't agree with NorthSider's 70h average as well, but "never booked less than 100 hours" can't be true.
If nothing else, this thread is a testament to how group-specific hours are. You won't get a great idea of how much you'll be working until you start interviewing.
Cocaine
Fight Club...
there is no life
Caffeine IV
I've said this elsewhere, but diet and exercise is key. To be stable/healthy I generally need sleep, decent food, and an active lifestyle. The first (sleep) is beyond my control, but I can control what I eat, and exercise is generally in my control as well (even if its just 45 min during dinner break every now and then).
Living a somewhat healthy lifestyle in terms of diet/exercise will do wonders for you when the rest of your body is getting killed (stress/no sleep). This has helped me power through the stress and the generally crappy lifestyle.
Also, have little things you look forward to. Maybe that's a good meal, a pickup basketball game, video games, or just getting ass-drunk. A good guilty pleasure helps.
I know this is asking a lot and even before interviews, but could you list some of the current sweatshops other than: Lazard, GS TMT, healthcare ? What about morgan stanley generalist, elite boutiques like moelis? lower bbs/mms?
I'd prefer to know the information before interviewing stage, where in a sense its already a bit too late if that's one of your few choices.
Pretty much all of the coverage groups at GS are heavy on hours. By Morgan Stanley "generalist", I assume you mean M&A? Don't have any data points there, so I don't feel qualified to answer. Most coverage groups at the non-GS/MS banks have reasonable hours (for banking), though there are always exceptions (C&R at JPM and BAML, for instance). Boutiques-wise, Lazard and BX have sweatshop reputations. Not really familiar with the MMs enough to make judgments, though the people I know at Jefferies tend to be present at most get-togethers, if that means anything.
Bottom line: unless you're shooting for a boutique firm, you're really not going to know what your hours will be like until you make it through group selection. Hours vary wildly between groups at BBs.
Highly doubt you're working those hours and posting on WSO in your free time, instead of sleeping Lifestyle...
IB & Life Balance (Originally Posted: 07/14/2014)
Hello everyone, I had a quick question, for the more experienced ones of you, and I think many people would benefit from the answer honestly ..
I'm really (like reeeeeeeeally) into Investment Banking and M&A to be more accurate, I know for sure that's what I want to do ... I wanted to ask about life&work balance in this industry ... I mean I know the hours are long, very long, and the rythm is pretty tough, but can we have a real family life despite this situation? As an analyst, but also as an associate later, and VP also ?? and is it really worth it??
The way I see it, it ABSOLUTELY is worth it as strategy and M&A are the only thing I want to be doing after my graduation, but for the people with experience in this field, how was it worth your time & energy ??
Thanks in advance for the answers :) & "bon courage" ;)
While I like your enthusiasm, your opinion of how much you're into "IB and M&A" may change drastically in the two years of your analyst stint. Having a family is definitely possible but hours won't be family friendly until you're past the VP stage.
Thank you :) I hear that quite a lot, of how hard it is, how exhausting it is, but It's litterally the only thing I like in this world (apart from being an astronaut, or a king, which will have to wait for another life to happen haha) and I keep telling myself that, If I'm doing the thing I like, it won't be as bas as it seems to be right now ... Let's just hope I'm not wrong!
how old are you?
I'm turning 22 in like 2 months or so, but doesn't mean anything I mean I might be young but I have been thinking about my career for a long time and I'm determined to break through IB, I'm in a target, and at the same time a consulting apprentice in the 2nd largest consulting firm in France, age if you ak me is just a number, and as we say here "Aux âmes bien nées la valeur n'attend point le nombre des années." which means "For souls nobly born, valor doesn't await the passing of years" ;)
I hope I am there to see the day that real life smacks you in the face like a ton of bricks ;)
I'm sure it's nothing I can't handle ;)
Don't romanticize banking dude, cause you seem to be doing this A LOT. The hours are a nightmare and at least half the work you'll be doing is not even close to exciting. That's not to say you cannot like banking, but they way you're describing it it sounds like the most amazing job one could possibly ever have in the history of the universe.
Thanks for sharing your point of view :) but if it's this tough and cruel, what makes analysts stay, and you maybe?? They must enjoy what they do even a tiny bit don't you think ??
You write like you are autistic.
I think it has something to do with him being foreign
Well I'd love to see you write in french and see how you handle it "buddy"
Je ne pense pas qu'il critique ton niveau d'anglais, mais plutôt la façon dont tu parles de banking comme si c'était la "meilleure chose au monde kikoolol"... There is a substantial difference between "2nd-tier consulting" (Roland Berger?) and banking hours, and it does not get marginally better until you become VP (if you do...). That being said, there is no chance you would work as many hours as they do in NYC. If you "reeeeeeeeeally" are into banking, try it; trust me you will want to be out by the 2nd year.
I see ! Thank you.. Well I actually like it because I've been through intensive maths and physics courses during prep school, the reason why I don't see myself doing a career in research for example, and I'm a bit fascinated by corporate strategies that's why I want to have a career in IB ... I have friends that had internships in M&A and they honestly say it is worth it, that's also the way I see it but yeah I might be wrong ..
most ppl would tell u moving to but-side is a common trend, right?
I banking is only for a certain few. Everyone gets burnt out. I'm in sales and trading. Much better for my skill set and attention span. I can't look at pitch books 70 hours a week
When i told my friends i wanted to transit into a CorpFin/M&A deal type of role (im currently in controlling role), all my M&A fds said 4 words to me: NO! Are you crazy?! hahaha i think that may give you a flavour. Some do enjoy the money side, most ppl just want to get out if they can find anything else that pays the same. hours in investmeng banking is long, regardless of deparments (ok maybe HR is an exception), even finance/controllers work long time during m/e, q/e, y/e closes, but M&A pps top the list in terms of hrs, esp. when there is deal going on.
i rarely get to see my M&A fds, even the ones working in the same bank....
OP, don't worry about what everyone's saying about your writing, you're clearly just enthusiastic and not a native speaker.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself, you're 22 for goodness' sake, why the hell are you thinking about family? enjoy yourself, hook up, have fun, crush it at work, and worry about a family later.
Thanks man I really appreciate it ... from what I hear, it's not that easy to have fun doing M&A with the hours and the rush sometimes ... did you manage to have fun despite the long hours and the insane rythm of work ??
Does the stress of banking even phase you anymore? (Originally Posted: 10/07/2009)
By now, most first year analysts and associates are in full swing. At my firm, I'm seeing how nervous/anxious/stressed out the first years are getting when facing deadlines. The yelling, the f-bombs, etc.
I was told earlier this morning by my VP that I'm not going to make my deadline with my current pace(working from 9:30 am through 11pm and taking a 30 minute lunch). It didn't phase me at all. I just kept going at the same pace.
Meanwhile, the analysts sitting next to me were told similar things during the last few weeks and they were incredibly neurotic.
Is it just me? Or has working for a few years in banking made me lose all respect for deadlines? Have any other bankers or former bankers experienced this?
I remember by my 2nd year I dealt with the stress much better / became numb to the imminent deadlines, threats and screaming. I knew I was working my ass off and I would warn people when a deadline would not be met and they knew I was not joking. If they pressured me to get it done, I would usually just say, "I'm already not sleeping and I am also working on a, b, c, x, y, z -- what would you like me to drop in order to get your project done? ........ Ok, can you get that approved by the staffer?"
There comes a point when you really don't give a shit. When you come into work unshaven after a 35hr day, keep a pillow at your desk, etc. honestly, i think this attitude gets you more respect with the seniors -- they know you've been crushing it based on the times of your e-mails (3, 4, 5am) so they know not to mess with you because you are already pulling more than your weight.
If you are already maxed out in terms of hours (100+/week), there is really nothing anyone can say to you that should stress you out. As long as you are productive and they don't see you wasting time you will be seen as an asset.
so, short answer: yes.
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Well, by your second year, you should be focusing on your way out and your exit ops, right?
So, I'm guessing that when you've got a nice buyside gig lined up, the banking deadlines would naturally become less important.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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