How important are social skills for getting IB job?
Suppose I get into a M7. How important are social skills to get a IB job? If u don't have good, are they important?
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Although being "alpha" is not necessary, it helps to be confident in your skin and show others that you stand for your own values and principles in life. This goes from entry level analyst to MD, where social "IQ" or emotional intelligence plays a crucial role in closing deals, etc.
I would suggest reading Dale Carnegie's "How to win Friends and Influence People." It also helps to practice public speaking (I know there are gatherings where people can help each other improve speaking) or pushing your boundaries of comfort, such as talking to a stranger in a bar (not for picking up girls), just for observing how people react in certain situations.
That's just my 2 cents.
Thanks a lot for that. I've read that book; really helpful. I've also read a few other books as well, thanks to everyone here also.
Social skills are important when you're in the job. Not so much for actually getting the job. In the interview, they will base your social skills on how well spoken, articulate and confident you are. Remember, you're not going into Sales, where social skills are huge for the job. But IBD is still a front-office role. If you stick around long enough, you'll be facing clients and your ability to build relationships will be put to the test. But just as an Analyst, you have to be seen as a person that others can get along with.
You will have to show that you'll be social enough to get on with your team, the analysts around you etc. The fact that you open up with people after a period of time is good, but interviewers only get 30 minutes or so to judge you. You have to try and show them that you are able to get along with people, and that people will want to work with you.
Very important.
A few thoughts come to mind:
*. I know a guy with a massive stutter who got a full time job at a tier2 consulting firm, without having been an intern at any name brand firm. This is at the MBA level where social skill expectations are exponentially higher.
*Very few bankers strike me as being true "alpha males", but keep in mind that this is coming from a guy with a military background and biker friends. They're just highly confidant and socially adept at the higher levels.....and sometimes extremely arrogant, which is easily confused with being an "Alpha" by those who haven't yet learned to tell the difference.
*If you have an intellectual vibe that's usually a good thing. Bankers at name brand firms can be a bit pretentious so know how to use that. Knowing a lot about wine and/or golf won't hurt.
*What you're lacking is plain and simple confidence. If you do these two things and put time into them over the next year you will be fine. The first thing is get in shape. It doesn't matter what route you go but don't just join a gym: Either get a personal trainer or sign up for classes (bonus points if it's some kind of full contact martial art). This way you're accountable for going. Second practice speaking. The easiest way is to join Toastmasters and go every week. If there are multiple clubs in your area visit a few and sign up to go to the one that has the most professionals among the membership and/or has people who are really good at constructive criticism.
If you do both and stick with it You'll be on a whole other level six months from now.
Thank you so much for that advice. Yeah, I am working on social skills. I now talk to random people I meet (at the store, park etc) and it has helped a lot. I never heard about Toastmasters, thanks for that. Without the social skill improvement, IB it seems, isn't going to happen. I better try to improve before business school. I don't mind putting in the work with regards to networking or talking to people. But I need to make sure that I come across as normal.
I would say, from past experience, that I am generally likable.
Oh yeah.
Get a wingman. I had a few buddies when I was about your age who were with me on the project. We'd usually meet up on weekends and critique each other's social mistakes after we left the venue. It helps to have an observer.
This. When I was 16 I weighed about 110 pounds and it both literally and figuratively made me feel small. I had the amazing fortune of befriending a gym instructor who became something of a mentor; ended up bulking to about 180-190lbs and am a completely different person.
I guess it comes down to what you consider "alpha". I'd consider being "highly confidant and socially adept" to be the very definition of "alpha".
Social skills are very important, probably more important than IQ
Social skills are very important for MBA recruiting, even moreso than for analyst recruiting...not going to sugar coat it. The way MBA recruiting works is each bank has 7-10 (or so core schools) with dedicated recruiting teams at each. If you are at one of these core schools you'll be interviewing against your classmates. Throughout the 3 month or so networking process from the initial presentation to the interview, banks host networking events and expect you to make networking calls. For the most part, the assumption is if you are at a core school you have the academic chops to do the job, so it comes down to can I put this person in front of a client, can I work with them, etc...
Also going to an M7 school doesn't necessarily help you compared to other core schools (the big difference is core vs non-core). My BB bank had more people in our class from Darden, Ross, UNC, NYU and Duke than Harvard, Stanford, MIT or Kellogg.
Thanks a lot for that info.
Keep in mind that kinda narrows it down. If I had to guess from that information I'd say Credit Suisse.
Can we get @Fratlord in here please!?
In the meantime, my .02 - as someone who identifies closely with you:
Good job on not only having a desire, but seeking help to improve yourself. That said, here's my shit-fest. Responding positively to negative feedback is an important social skill so let's start there.
NOBODY is going to give you a job, especially in IB, because they "Feel sorry for you" I am not sure how far that got you in MBA business schools ">M7 interviews (I expect pretty far, depending on how sob your story is / what race you are) but as an associate (Post-MBA role in IB) you are expected to deal with clients. You think you can stutter your way into a CEO pity-spending $3 Bn on a transaction that is going to lose his company money? This is not the card you want to play my friend.
Oh you are an intellectual eh? Hope you are able to get over your giant brain while you comb through 200 pg CIMS for spelling mistakes, and manage other people's time / work-load.
"Not Alpha?" Bro you gotta dick up, hard. This is not to say that frat-boy douchebaggerry will help you land a role in IB. It probably won't, especially if you aren't in a frat. It is to say, however, that if you are thinking in terms of the alpha-beta male personae, then you probably have a seriously childish view on life. Which is okay as far as IB is concerned, I guess, as long as you are able to hide it throughout the entire interview process.
TL;DR:
Social skills are almost the only thing that matter - especially if you are smart, which you seem to be. You have to be who you are, and if that's a deep-thinker, then that's great. That does not mean you can or should write off your inability to effectively communicate as "just who you are". It is a skill. Practice it.
Also, wait a second. How much school have you done already, what subjects, and have you already been accepted to B - School? In addition, what is your work experience?
I know this isn't the advice you asked for, but I think the best way I can help you at the moment is to tell you to sharpen your focus to the next step in front of you.
I'm not telling you to ignore the downstream implications of your actions-- there's something to be said for keeping your head up and looking out to the horizon for what's next. But in your case, you seem distracted. You've posted a half-dozen threads in the last few weeks full of hypotheticals, where you're concerned with what you might do at stage D, given success at A, B, and C.
The truth is, each of the steps is difficult, and requires your full attention. You haven't taken the GMAT yet, right? Getting a 750 on the GMAT is hard. Anything that bleeds focus away from that singular goal makes it harder. If you don't achieve that first goal, then all the rest of the planning you did won't matter.
You've also asked about getting into an MBA business schools ">M7. You see where I'm going next: getting into an MBA business schools ">M7 is hard. You can't let your IB aspirations post-MBA get in the way of putting together the best application you can.
Long story short, cut away the distractions and go after your goals. I guarantee you that you have enough information to decide on a near-term course of action, and leave it all on the field. If you are successful, you'll find a whole community of people here ready to help you with the next step.
Dude...I see that you deleted your atrocious comment from the other day, but let me remind you of this:
You wrote that.
Now, either you believe that shit for real, or you were trolling. But it really doesn't matter, because either way, those warped thoughts are actually something that's going on in your internal monologue.
If you truly want to develop better social skills, try reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Self-help books can only go so far, as you note, but you have a lot to learn from that book--like, for starters, how to think positively about other humans, rather than thinking of them as "scum". Seriously, if you cannot fathom the concept of a good mother, I am speechless.
I'm sorry I can't be more positive. My sense is that before you can appreciate/make use of any subtle or nuanced advice on social skills, you need to work on the foundation of your social skills. Stuff like: thinking positively instead of negatively, trying to cultivate a genuine interest in what others are doing with their lives, taking personal satisfaction from being helpful, etc.
Short of being sociopathic, I have never observed someone who was able to demonstrate great social skills while simultaneously taking such a dim view of their fellow man.
To finish, social skills are about way more than IB. If you don't have good social skills, you will never make it to the top of any organization. Fact of the matter is that people with good people skills become leaders, because they know how to organize and lead people. People who are technically proficient but socially inept end up being relegated to an office somewhere far away from the action, left to make widgets in peace and not interfere with the work of their bosses.
SB'ed for a great post. You've hit on a deeper issue than I did (my recommendations were designed to create positive experiences that fuel a better internal dialogue and confidence).
I can see where he gets that. Unfortunately trying to improve one's own social skills can often get you into PUA communities where that thinking is common.
They're not entirely wrong: women CAN be completely terrible, but that's kind of like men. Realizing that the pedestalized view of women that you get from being raised by a single parent, religion, and/or nerd culture can be a harsh landing.
For OP and everyone else, make sure you always try to understand where people are coming from with their opinions. The reason some people believe that about women or people is because it's true in their experience. If you're a guy who gives of a needy or vulnerable vibe, then you are going to be perceived as weak and will attract predatory personalities. Some of you who don't believe me need to take a trip to any high end shopping area (inc. Vegas) populated by tech types. You'll see a bunch of nerdy types being literally dragged around from store to store by their attractive girlfriends who don't seem all that into the dude.
Those of us who aren't easy targets don't get hit with that and we generally have women who are supportive and trust our lead. Almost all people out there are more reactive to their circumstances than influencing (the exceptions are the ones I mean when I use the term "Alpha"), and they're reacting to you because of something they sense. Change the input and you get a different output.
Yo, way too long, no chance I read that shit. But for real, if you find a great woman you love, with a head on her shoulders, don't be afraid to let her know, yo. Walk up to her and tell her, "I respect you bitch". Respecting bitches is F, and don't let anyone tell you differently j. madden How would you feel if the local Frat Lord piping your mom told all his bros that she was scum after he finished blasting her nudes through the frat groupme?
Social skills are the THE most important factor to getting a job in IB. I'm sure you're smart, but IB doesn't require genius level intelligence, just above average + strong work ethic. This will basically include the vast majority of MBA candidate at MBA business schools ">M7 MBA schools. How you set yourself apart from these people and what's on paper is your social skills. This will determine if you will get the interview at all, and if you do, whether or not you will get the offer. I'm sure you are a good guy, but the fact is, no one is going to try and get to know you to that point to make you comfortable enough to speak with them. You are the one that must make the effort and you are the one that needs to kill the first impression and come across as a sociable, likable guy. When they've got hundreds of candidates, the ones they don't like/don't notice almost immediately will be facing an uphill battle. If you are one of those people, you're screwed. That's the honest truth, take it how you will
Oh by the way. ** STOP MASTURBATING AND USING PORN.**
Stop immediately. Stop cold turkey. Do whatever you have to do: install a filter and give the password to an accountability buddy. Only use the internet in public. Whatever it takes.
http://askmenanswers.com/7-ways-porn-addiction-is-ruining-your-life/
Basically what porn (and video games, especially adrenaline inducing ones) do to your brain is blow out your dopamine circuits. You become used to such large dopamine releases that normal social activities are no longer able to provide your brain sufficient stimulation, and you feel bored/nervous with any interactions.
I guarantee you this will also help with your views on women. If you do not allow yourself any self pleasure eventually you'll get enough pent up horniness and aggressiveness that you'll go for what you want and quite possibly get it.
Do I need to quote FratLord to why this is some bullshit?
I'm pretty sure Fratlord crushes too much sorority pledge pussy to waste time on porn.
I feel like Attack Chihuahua is the guy that faps his meat until he's literally screaming at it with aggression. "FAP FAP FAP FUCK YA BRO, GETTING LAID IN COLLEGE IS FUCKING BULLSHIT ANYWAY BRO, FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP"
Attack Chihuahua's entire face is beat read and his teeth are gritted with determination to take his sexual frustration out on his two inch micro-stiffy
"FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP AHHHHHHHH FUCKKKKKKKK I CANT STOP FUCK FUCK FUCK ITS BLEEDING BUT IM SO ADDICTED TO FAPPING. I FUCKING HATE GETTING LAID IN COLLEGE BRO FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP"
All hail AttackChihuahua, the king of Habitual Fappage.
Hey man, thanks a lot for all your advice. thanks also to everyone else here.
I would say, I have ok people skills--ok enough to work in a lab anyways. I will have to improve confidence and the ability to walk up to people, which I think comes with practice.
Thanks a lot to everyone. Everyone's advice was really helpful
1) In nature vs nurture argument, I think people behavior will change with the environment. There is no such thing as a fixed personality and if you do have one - you won't go very far in life. You will have to adjust with change in life.
2) Alpha is overrated and Beta is underrated. Try to stay in the middle. You don't want to be a pushover but you don't want to come off as overly aggressive (and not polish enough). Especially in investment banking, you want to come across as "civil", "polished" and "refined" - even if you want to open your enemy's heart and eat it while he is still alive.
3) The end justifies the mean. Don't be too fixated on how you get there. You need to survive before you can thrive. The history is written (i mean manipulated/twisted) by the winners, not losers.
4) Have an open mind. Don't label people as enemy or friend. In life, there are gray areas. Even if you hate someone today, they can turn useful in other situation (case in point, your enemy's enemy is your friend - even if that guy is your enemy in the beginning).
5) Don't declare your motives. Always say less than necessary. If you appear to be too sure of what you want or who you are as a person, you are going to offend someone no matter how good you sounds (i.e. pro gun vs gun control, manchester united fan vs arsenal fan).
I think if you can do the above 5 things, you will get pretty far ahead in life.
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