When to give up
How long should one spend before they call it quits, pursuing a career in finance? I saw the other thread on this, but at this point I want to know the actual views of other people on whether I should give up. Heres how it goes:
Graduated 2010 from a non target w/ an arts degree.
Started off working in journalism, but decided I wanted to do finance after a while.
Start 2011 - get full time unpaid internship at PE firm. All the interns get laid off ~6 months later so the firm can hire interns on a rotating basis. Just to be clear, I have never taken unemployment.
Do 3 more full time unpaid internships in PE and IB, where not a single person is hired, for a total of ~1.5 years of unpaid internships. Leave one because an opportunity for learning is greater at another, leave that one because I cant afford to keep traveling to and from the office (4 hours round trip) for the next which offers to pay for travel expenses, then have to leave that one because I lose access to transportation to that one.
During this time, have sent out ~5000 emails from a count on the emails I use for networking an recruiting.
Apply to some 5000+ jobs (estimate).
Interview at several dozen firms, having gotten through and memorized multiple books of common interview questions, technical and behavioral.
Get not a single offer, though do get interviews at a number of places.
Leading to a couple of months ago when I get an interview at a hedge fund in another city. Its a niche fund, with a good bit under management (~500m), and is in an area which I have worked on a lot. After a phone interview and an invite to meet with the guy "next time Im in the area for coffee" (I've never been within 3000 miles of that area), I make it happen that I can go there. Flights get fucked up and my initial 4 hour margin of error isn't enough - have to reschedule for next day, costing ~1000 for new flight the next day, hotel and missed flight that night. Proceed to have a good interview. Pitch a stock, even though no pitch was asked for and I am the only one who has made a pitch who he interviewed.
Seems like it went well, and I leave. Because of more flight delays, I end up getting back home a day and a half later. W/e, it was worth it.
Send thank you email, wait a week and send a follow up. During that time, the stock I pitched had an event which I predicted and had a 66% gain.
Guy says I am not a "perfect fit" and they're going on with other candidates. Guy says in follow up that I didn't show enthusiasm or interest in the sector. Which I spent the better part of a month looking up stocks to pitch, and researching his funds style and holdings.
Should I give up? I kinda made an ultimatum with myself that I would give up on finance if I didn't get an offer from this place. I am hesitant - I have invested a LOT in to trying to get in to the field. 2 years without getting paid, chasing a dream, family talking about me like I'm a failure for my lack of a paying job... its not easy. Your thoughts are appreciated.
after almost three years of not getting paid, i would take almost any paying job. you can still attempt to break in while working a job that will feed you. also, there are more areas within finance besides IB, PE, and HF which for the time being appear to not be a viable option.
i respect your tenacity, but if i were in your shoes i would really have a tough time answering the question "is working in finance really worth it?". at the end of the day it's only one aspect of your life and does not define who you are.
To me though, its more than just a job. Its a field which I love, and I know that I wouldn't be happy in any other field. Its what I want to do with my life - but it just may not be possible.
Why aren't you applying to non ibd or buy side positions? 2 years of unpaid internships is bordering on delusional. Take whatever decent somewhat finance related job you can find then try to break into buyside after an mba. The longer you wait the worse it looks.
Ive applied to pretty much everything one could think of thats related to finance, FO, MO, BO, PE, HF, IB, VC, ER, CO, AM, IM, etc etc.
I guess I just don't understand your reasoning. If you can't get BO or MO then you certainly can't get IBD IMD PE or VC at this juncture. Have you looked into CF gigs? If you are 100% insistent on finance your best bet may be MFin although that is risky as well. Good luck
Well, I mean, I did just interview at a hf for an associate role so its not like theres 0% chance...
I'm still a student but for what it's worth here's my input...
What's your GPA? How's your resume? Did you try headhunters at all? With so much IB/PE experience (despite being unpaid) I would think there's something out there for full-time. With 3 years of unpaid experience, even if this is your passion you should have probably realized after year 1 that you need to 'start somewhere', or at least work your way up somewhere and get a top MBA -> IB.
If your experiences are as they really are you really shouldn't have this much trouble getting a 'Finance' job... try temp agencies too
GPA is low enogh that I dont put it on the resume. Resume is M&I standard, and has a couple of deals I worked on pretty in depth (worked on a bunch, but in depth, probably a half dozen total). Also, its only ~1.5 years experience, dont want to give myself more credit than I am owed. Tried head hunters - thats how I learned of the hf role for instance. Most dont want to work with anyone w/ less than a years experience of paid work though. Temp agencies I have tried, but there are very few jobs that are relevant to finance, and I have applied to a lot already.
If you're that good at picking stocks, why do you need a job?
Seriously though, you should look into PWM. It's what guys like you do.
I honestly don't know what to say...
WTF???? Dude, when I was job searching in like 2 weeks I got call backs from like 7 different firms for paying jobs and 2 offers.
Give the f* ck up. Honestly, you wasted a sh* t ton of time and are continuing to lose a lot. In my opinion, someone as moronic as you doesn't deserve a job in this industry. ~5000 emails is not tenacity it is stupidity better yet its craziness.
Get a f* cking job and get over finance, NEVER going to happen. If you could manage to get into an M7 then spring for it later but don't go to any business school and expect to break in.
I dont know why your heart is so cold and full of hate. You must be in great pain. I dont know why. But I do pity you. If you want to talk about the reason why you're so full of negativity, feel free to shoot me a message and we can talk.
What are you 7? Buddy, I'm not being a prick, I'm being candid. It is incredibly pathetic to go that long without a paying job and that many emails without any real leads. It's just a waste of time and a reflection on your lack of intelligence.
Guess what, MDs and HR managers could figure it out when they see a kid graduated college and has been interning for 1.5 years. It doesn't look attractive. Very moronic. It says this kid isn't smart.
If you told me at an interview you held 3 internships regardless of position post-graduation and couldn't land a paying gig, I wouldn't hire you. If you were smart you would have gotten a real job by now. Seriously, how are you supporting yourself? I hope its not your family, I would have kicked you out if you were my kid a long time ago.
Get a job, work at a micky D's if you have to but you really should stop wasting your time on this.
hahahhaha I'm calling troll BS.
It sounds like you had everything nailed with the HF interview, so what could have gone wrong? What has been going wrong all along? Perhaps the issue is the way you come across. Cultural fit is extremely important for hedge funds, particularly smaller shops. You should be really honest with yourself about the way you present yourself to others, and try to examine if there is anything that you can change. I am not trying to bring you down or criticize you in any way, I commend your determination, but the toughest challenges often lie within us.
Otherwise, did the stock you pitch make sense? Beyond the sector, was there size, liquidity, or quality considerations that might not have made it a suitable pitch for that particular fund? There are many things that might seem obvious to the guy on the other side of the table, that wouldn't necessarily come to mind for you.
If you want, send me a PM and I'll mock interview you. I promise to be brutally honest about anything you can fix. Don't think that this is a path to a job from me in any shape or form.
Looking at the bigger picture, I can't tell you whether to give up or not. I do think that 2013 will be a better year for finance hiring than the last two. The banks have blown out a lot of people, equity markets have been grinding higher (though somewhat overheated in near-term), and a lot of tail risk has been removed. Also, have you considered grad school? I don't think school is a good solution most of the time, but in your case, given that your GPA is so low, perhaps a graduate degree would offer you the reset that you need. I am not sure you have the level of experience needed for an MBA, but perhaps a lower ranked program could be viable. Given your level of hustle, I am sure you could get a decent job (though certainly not HF/PE/etc) out of those programs. There are probably a lot of other programs that could be helpful as well. I am not an expert on grad school (don't plan on ever going) so there are others here more knowledgeable than I.
i had a crappy gpa, but i cold called every boutique in my area, landed a few interviews and got a well paid internship. Ive also come back for my masters while working this internship, to reposition myself with a better GPA and relevant degree. I think the main reason i got interviews was because I got into a masters program at a top 25 school.
It is hard to tell you to keep trying...3 unpaid internships is rough.
what region are you in?
New england.
Took me 1.5 years out of undergrad, 4 unpaid internships, and a low paying FT job to finally get a legit HF offer. If you want it, go get it.
In your case, 'legit HF offer' understates it.
I would try and go the path BTBanker suggested. PWM is actually a pretty good gig and in the long run you can learn a lot. Ignore what target is saying, his personal attacks on your character remove all merit from his ability to objectively give any advice, even if there are some valid points.
Also what above poster suggested, consider going back to school. More on the point of networking too, 5000 emails (which is most likely a drastic exaggeration) is too broad. Get on Linkedin, cold call places around you and try and get in touch with kids you graduated with in finance. Just try to build a strong core network instead of contacting everyone from here to kingdom come for a job.
Hope this helps.
This. Have you only been emailing and not calling? for my previous internships, i have almost always sent in my application after calling them and talking with them and getting the main recruiter's email. It is a lot easier to tell your story via phone than in an email.
From all of the information you listed, you have a good many things against you and I think recruiters/hr probably see you as a risk relative to other candidates, especially in this environment.
Look at it like this: You have been out of school for 2 years from a non-target and with a non finance/technical background. There is a gap between your 2010 graduation date and your first 2011 internship. Then, you have two more internships (which I hope you are listing as such so they know you are not jumping ship from a ft gig) which does show you are motivated and somewhat focused on a particular field, but for some reason you have not gotten any of the three to like you enough to offer you a full time position. To top it off your gpa is low enough where you are leaving it off after being out of school for only two years.
These are all red flags to the people hiring you and it is less risky for them to simply take one of the thousand juniors at surrounding universities with 3.5+ gpa's and good ec's that they can mold and shape as they like. I am not saying it is fair, and I think if they knew what you have done thus far to pursue finance as a career there would definitely be someone out there to give you a shot. However, there are just so many factors working against you that getting a hook will be hard and networking is probably the only way to go. I wish you all the luck in the world.
This is such BS - most boutiques hire interns with the intent of NEVER extending an offer. They typically use and abuse interns for cheap labors to grind out tons of pitch books. If the intern lands a deal - sure pay above minimum wage a bit. But they know for sure that they aren't going to hire them.
I don't disagree, but the fact remains that not every member of hr, or whoever is recruiting, is looking at your resume with the same mindset.
The lack of cultural fit was the 2010 graduation date.
Honestly, I can't believe this post exists. No one feels remorse for you and the fact is finance isn't really worth sinking another year of your life. The people giving you advice to keep going on leeches, letting you get tangled with false hope. Get a clue and move on into a different profession; and there are plenty of them out there.
Right now you just need to get any job that pays you. Sending emails or applying online without following up personally is obviously not working. I suggest picking up the phone or trying the technique of this guy: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/walk-in-cold-call-question
I would add that it's not like if/when you start looking in other fields that it's going to be real easy to land something. It's not harder to get a back office job than some corporate job.
All signs point to the fact that you need to do something different than your current approach. The most likely change needed is to use the phone more to make personal connections. Don't do the same thing and expect different results.
Sounds like you've had an extended period of bad luck. Like someone said above me, look bigger picture and examine your appearance and how you come across. Looks and personality play a big part in getting a job. It seems like the effort is there (1.5 years of unpaid work WTF?!) but the polish isn't quite yet.
If you want finance bad enough you will break in, trust me. Don't think your above a BO position, I took one to break in and it's worked out well for me.
US is tough right now. Europe is pretty hard too. Asia is not what it was in the mid-80s, mid-90s or mid-00s, but things are stable here in Singapore and there is a definite lack of talent throughout all industries (mostly because everybody smart and not Singaporean would rather work in New York or London). Give the region a try. Of those who arrived here jobless, all had a job within a week or two.
Alternatively, Switzerland is a good place to expat right now. Juicy salaries, and the Swiss (those who are still there) are neither as finance-literate, nor as driven as Americans, which might give you a sufficient edge to compensate for (presumably) non-fluency in German or French. A lot of the bankers/traders in Zurich are American or British anyway.
Check out non-traditional paths. Commodities houses like Glencore, oil producers like Shell, real estate companies, it doesn't have to have PE or bank on its name to be an interesting place to learn (you would be AMAZED what Cargill's prop VaR is). You also need to improve your conversion rate, clearly you are getting enough views but nobody is interested. So write up 10 good trade ideas (not homework, but real opportunities to make money), each on a half page of A4 (and if necessary with 3 pages to back them), from best to worst, and try to get them to somebody who might be in a position to hire you. It's amazing the number of kids with amazing CVs who "want to trade equities" but can't tell you a single long or short idea (the commodities equivalent was the good old "I want to be PTJ" or variations thereof like "how many people here trade their own account").
I definitely agree with those above who say that it is always possible to find a job in your area of love, with sufficient effort, time and strategy invested. Even if you eventually have to "give up" and do a "normal" job for a few years, then MBA/MFin your way in.
Very good advice here.
I've mentioned this in other threads, but I would recommend focusing on "inputs" rather than "outputs". Aside from possessing actionable market knowledge, are you physically fit? Dress well? Have a good group of friends? Have good relations with your family? Any hobbies? Can you write well? Speak any foreign languages? Think long and hard about all of the things you would start working on once you finally got that desired finance gig... and ask yourself why you can't just start working on this stuff now. All of this stuff takes time... something you'll have less and less of if you do break into finance.
Your situation, while not the most ideal, is far from terrible. Look man, I've met guys in wheelchairs that still manage to get laid (and raise families), and life-sentence convicts often find solace in prison by just writing their memoirs. You don't have a kid, you're not in prison, and I assume you have all 4 limbs. Unless you're the elephant man the potential to actually do something with your life is very much there. Don't waste it on WSO.
You don't have to give up Finance permanently. As some above me said, you can do something else for a few years. Gain some experience and money then get a decent MBA/MFin etc and try again. Hopefully your credentials and experience will look a lot stronger by then.
Or alternatively keep at it and don't give up.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.... Take the CFA
lol, the CFA is the chubby girl with bad acne you bring back because it is last call and you don't want to go back alone (disclaimer: I've taken cfa and prob done the bar thing too...)
Bu really, you do not back down, ever. The more you try, the odds are more in your favor that you'll land a job. Plus, there has to be someone out there that looks at your continual perseverance as an indicator of how bad you truly want it. You never know what's going to happen. Network, network, network. Good luck; you should give us an update in a month or two with what you decided to do.
Get an MSF. Or take ANY job you can find and then use that to sustain you as you make your next move.
When I was first looking for work, I was realistic and set a deadline. The only other place I was interested in was the military. So, I gave myself exactly one year to find a job in finance, and then hit the kill switch and accept the recruiter's offer.
At the end of the day.....it's just a job.
Read OP's previous posts. First of all, he has a picture of a pokemon or idk what the fuck... Ok, he likes weird stuff. Not a guaranteed ding. Second, he said he was in a MSF program almost a year ago. Now he's just an Arts major? Third, claimed to be dating a girl whose dad was a BB MD. Also adding that she was a teenager who uses a buttplug and likes to be choked... .... Come on man!
WSR: Those were satire. This is serious.
BTW, good call, that was hilarious. OP even went back and deleted it, go check LAWLZ
Welcome to Ops togepi, feel free to shoot me any questions you may have.
Regards, King of Opz
I know the OP's story better and I would say another major obstacle is his location. There are too many students around that recruiting is a tight process.
I don't think you should give up but don't take a random PWM job either - you will just be cold calling.
I think an MSF will help you a lot.
Had a similar story to you where I pounded the pavement hard. Took me awhile but eventually got the offer I wanted right after I finished applying for MSF programs. My advice to you is to keep at it and seriously consider a MSF. It will give you a mini-reset and should put you in a good position.
Dude, people are just giving you crappy advice and advising you just waste more time. 2 years is a long time to be unemployed. You might have very well lost out anywhere between $100 - $300k in compensation before taxes.
Seriously, get a job. Isn't starbucks increasing hiring? There are plenty of marketing jobs out there. Why not just go back to school?
I've got to agree, get a job. Internships look good on resume's but at this point you're doing more harm than good. Also, target for life is a fucking idiot.
yes, go write a screenplay or something
You must have horrible interviewing skills or come off as really awkward. It sucks but if you have something wrong with your appearance or behavior it could sink you.
Nothing is tough. I dont want to recite the stories of Jordan and Lincoln. You gained experience in finance. Try to get some thing where that experience is appreciated, It really doesnot matter whether its core finance or not.
Wow, I feel your pain. After coming back home from back packing for 1 yr, I must say the US job market is quite competitive. I pounded the pavement and did all of the applying I could, but what I learned is to work smart, not stupid. Applying for a job is sort of a waste of time. Like how are you supposed to differentiate yourself from 1,000 other applicants? I networked with a recruiter I knew way back from a network event in college, and he basically handed me a job at Mcgladrey. Anyway, quit applying and start networking! You may feel like you did a lot of work sitting in front of your computer, applying to jobs on career builder, but you actually wasted precious time. Calling and emailing is much better. The internet has killed the job application process, what a black hole.
EDIT: I do credit that I am good on the phone and that I was prepared on what to talk about when cold calling. Being unique and different from the applicants will leave a longer lasting impression. Chicago is a big sports town, and talking about the bulls, bears, and cubs can lead to less awkwardness with strangers lol
This article on job hunting is pretty much how anyone applying nowadays should approach this, this is why i say applying online on indeed or careerbuilder is like sending your resume through a black hole.
Hey man,
Arguably stupid to stick with it so long, but your persistence is highly commendable.
If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do.
1) I'm guessing after 5,000 emails, your approach is probably very well standardized. Perhaps it's time to re-valuate how you are making your approach. Especially if your GPA is low, the traditional approach may not be the most effective one and it could take multiple variants to get it down pat. For instance, I record the calls I have and play them back to myself later and evaluate what worked/what didnt based on how I executed and how it was received.
2) I think that target for life kid is a fucking dooche, yet the guy still has a point. 1.5 years is a long time to be "technically unemployed". If money is not an issue, I would highly look into going to b-school or something close like mgmt science or mgmt engineering. Again, GPA and your 1.5 years of bouncing around is going to be an issue.
If you get rejected, I wouldn't take it for an answer. Prob start calling up some of the deans and make your case personally. It's going to be a hard sell, but if you tell them what you just wrote, I'm sure they'll take your call as genuine and not some flake who's desperate to get in.
I know this sounds like a huge stretch, but I know/seen people who were in similar positions use this route and broke into some top BBs.
Good Luck Bud.
Black.
I dont think its time to give up, definitely time to change your approach. Sounds like you are taking the shotgun approach to the extreme you have to narrow it down and focus on cultivating fresh, solid contacts not just emailing every random MD that will post his email on google. I dont think your fucked, you have 3 FO internships and seem somewhat knowledgable. Like others have said an MSF could give you a nice reset to your career. I think threads like this just go to show how brainwashed WSO is, most kids are just 19/20 year olds spewing out bullshit advice. Yes, its extremely hard to get into IB but plenty of people break in who arent 3.8 target kids with previous IB internships
4 unpaid internships after graduation? OMG... I would have given up by now.
Get a MFin degree or another undergrad in finance or something... don't know if you will be able to get into a top school with your low GPA, but it's worth trying.
Plus, when do you have time to network and meet with people if you do these unpaid internships full time?
Stop taking unpaid internships... Those are for desperate freshman/sophomores in college, not adult men. If they don't want to pay you a freaking minimum wage, they don't give 2 cents (pun intended) about you.
I can't imagine owning a firm and having a college educated, adult man work for NOTHING in my office... Experience my ass, they know you need to eat and are a grown adult. It's disgraceful, for you and especially them!
Don't quit. You know you're close when you're about to give up. Someone once told me, "What you are to become is what you're becoming." Keep grinding... just make sure its smart and targeted grinding.
hahahhaha take the Wall Street Oasis banana points. I use my real banana on fine cougars. They eat it all up.
Congratulations on finally securing a role.
When do you give up? (Originally Posted: 08/24/2008)
Pretty much for all the analysts who lost their jobs one way or another and still haven't found anything, when will you give up trying to get back into banking?
Before pursuing another career, going back to school or some other alternative, how long do you give yourselves?
I'm trying to figure out when I should just call its quits and pursue my exit strategy whatever thats going to be.
I'm still getting interviews and making it to final rounds, but I don't think I can take any more interviews or rejections. I spent my summer working and interviewing/searching and it blew. I pretty much feel like calling its quits soon and taking a month or two break before taking the GMATs and trying for some shitty business school where I'll get a corp fin/consulting job that pays 70-80K a year total.
So that being said, I wanted to take a poll, run a comparables analysis and see what thoughts you guys had about when to stop searching.
Wrong thing to do a comparable analysis on, way too many variables. Just be extremely honest with yourself.
Never give up.
This is the rest of your life you're talking about here. Do you really want to be some 9-5 schmoe forever and ever? Keep it up kid, stay focused and you'll come out on top.
I think it could be a great decision to go to b-school at this point and wait for the market to turn around. You'll find it easier to get back into banking with your prior experience and you'll also have an MBA.
I think there's a slight catch 22 there.
In order to do banking, it helps (and for anyone ambitious enough to pursue banking, usually is) to have a top 20 MBA or better, MBA business schools">M7. No one would deny the importance of that. Now, the problem with going to business school now is that the application process is flooded with other people. Applicant rates are known to jump in market downturns. So, the first thing to realize is the competition will be greater.
Second, I'm curious how much experience the OP has. If it's just a year or even two, getting into the top programs as someone originally interested in finance might not put him/her in the best position to get into a top school.
for me, its pretty much peacing out on banking for the time being and trying my hand at a different career in "business." i have close to two years experience (9 months buyside, 1 year banking).
im looking to get about 3-5 years of experience post-MBA and then going to law school or go into private practice/starting something on my own. I don't even know yet.
But really, how long can someone interview? 6 months, 9 months, 1 year, 1.5 years?
When Is it time to give up? (Originally Posted: 01/13/2010)
Well I got my Masters last year, and this May it will officially be one year of unemployment. At this point the resumes are so backlogged with other people coming up the pipe that I feel it's going to take a while to clear it out. When do you guys just throw in the towel? I think I've officially thrown it in, i.e. just took a job as a pizza delivery boy, literally today, because I am so broke.
IBD is an amazing career, but it isn't the only finance position which pays very well. Being unemployed for a year is the last thing I would want to do. Start looking for credit analyst, corporate finance, whatever. If you are dead set on IB take a position with similar job duties and use it as a way to transition later on. Cash Flow is the most important thing and being a pizza boy isn't going to provide that.
I can't even get any of those jobs going. Only thing I could get is a financial advisor job, which blows cok, but I guess so does delivering pizzas.
Why on earth would you take pizza delivery over financial advisor?
probably because he doesn't want to cold call, work on commission, etc.
to the OP, did you have any work experience before getting your masters?
Ya man, never do FA'ing. Horrible. Where you at again ?
Nothing on the recruiting end at BYU?....dude i know they are really strong in accounting. Do audit and go for an MBA at a top 20 school.
No I didn't go to to BYU because I didn't feel like giving away where I went. I went to a little Ivy, that's not Amherst or Wiliams. So take a wild guess where I went to undergrad.
There are actually two killers:
Your lack of relevant experience, which is not necessarily required by large banks, but almost a must for no name MM and boutiques.
Your master degree. Some BBs automatically disqualify all master students for IBD analyst position unless you have very strong internal referral (at least MD level). Not sure if that holds true for S&T and ER.
Why do banks not consider Masters students for analyst positions?
Well, it's just a policy thing. As I said, only some BBs do that, which means it really depends on different firms.
I hope you've been applying to everything under the sun..including corp fin, business development, consulting whatever. Have you been doing that ? or just focusing on Finance ?
I'm an MSF student right now in a 4+1 program right out of undergrad (non-target, even) and landed a job with a BB in New York. I had several final rounds with a few other well-known banks and it never seemed to be an issue that I was pursuing a masters, though I'm not sure if this wouldn't have been the case if I had gone back to school to get it after working a few years. Just thought I'd mention it given the previous posts.
What did you get the masters in?
http://www.razume.com/documents/13339
Is my resume, I basically already gave away where I went to school so you can fill those in.
What interviews have you had so far ?
PEE
EYCH
DEEEEE
I read the thread and honestly, it's time to give up now.
PS: Pepperoni please, thin crust.
I am shocked that you have been unemployed for a year even considering the current market environment. You have a solid academic background and seem fairly well-rounded. I suspect that you havent taken advantage of alumni networking, career services/fairs, cold-emailing, family/friends connections, etc. Where are you based now? Major city? Keep the pizza delivery job for now but you should be trying to get interviews each week.
At the end of the day, keep things in perspective, its one year out of a long career, we're in the middle of the worst recession in a long time, and you dont live in Haiti. I know its easy to get down and depressed but hang it there. Good luck.
^^ i'm not surprised at all, obv junkbondswap is not familiar with the current job market. there are way better qualified ppl who have been out of work equal if not longer. OP you need to rewrite your resume for starters if you want to continue
And I've interviewed at JEF, PJ, some small boutique ER shops, some banks for CA jobs but nothing.
One thing I would do is have a "relevant experience" section followed by work experience chronologically. that way you can highlight the finance related stuff. noone needs to know you tutored kids for tests.
after all, even if you do stellar in the interview. they will come back to your resume and look at it and see the kaplan thing first. doesn't help at all.
Never Nver give up mate , i am in the same situation too but i only have done my undergrads !!!
Gotcha, how about this newer version?
http://www.razume.com/documents/13422
Simply so my relevant experience is towards the top.
Oh and it's one page normally, just adds that one line for some reason.
Search beyond banks. You need any sort of "analyst" job. There are loads of consultancies that would take you, even if it's not strictly valuation.
Is there any thing that I can do now to increase my odds of getting a job. I really don't want to even do an ibd analyst stint, but will take anything related to be an analyst. More degrees? I'm obviously kind of sol on work experience, as far as getting more.
And jtbbdxbnycmad where should I look for those consultancy jobs, i.e. what kind of firms should I be investigating.
I sent you a pm. There definitely is hope.
Update re: When to Give Up (Originally Posted: 05/10/2013)
Here's an update to this thread: "When to Give Up"
I got picked up by a lower mm pe firm w/ an lbo focus on the tech sector for an associate gig. Will commence to send out gifts to the numerous people from here who aided me in my quest in the near future.
I'll continue to try to make a switch to a hf after a while at this place, and will do the CFA, but its good to finally be justified. I also don't understand why people like some of the posters in that thread would choose to respond in the way they did. Cant really give any advice because I feel like my path was not one I'd necessarily suggest to others.
Well done, the long hard slog paid off.
Well done OP!
Good job OP
Congratulations. Glad to hear it worked out.
gjdm
Become a certified user. Your advice would definitely be appreciated by many.
Nicely done. How did you do it?
Just kept shot out a resume to a random posting. The immense amount of networking Ive done in the past few months, additional applying and other "smart" ways lead to nothing definitive. It was the law of high ridiculously numbers.
Gr8 job OP !!
Congrats op
Great job, now go there and dominate.
Come on, you gotta give us more than that after your last thread. How did you get the interview? What's the new gig look like? Details! Congrats on the job and on not giving up.
Shot a resume to a random internet posting. Guy seemed interested in the amount/breadth of my experience.
Lots of travel to NYC/SF/other hubs and places where we either have offices or are looking at prospective investments/checking in w our investments post acquisition. Doing industry research and all the normal stuff as well.
I really see it as more of a way to support myself and get experience until I can get in to a value focused hedge fund - thats the dream.
Could be worse for a 2.something non target arts major.
Hard work and Patience always pays off. Congrats mate!!
Congrats OP! I just read your previous post and you came a long way
Congrats. I see a lot of myself in you (not sure whether that's good though ha). Graduated from law school but hated the trade. Transitioned to HF through legal analysis in merger arb, honed finance through further UG work, CFA, MBA, many all nighters, exams on EPS day, no vacations for virtually a decade, the whole shitshow. Never bought this "you're capable of anything" crap, but I always believed "you should do what you're capable of". Good luck and keep us posted.
sounds like a story fit for a Q&A
I'm really happy for you OP!
well deserved! congrats
You're the man OP!
great job man, it all paid off.
Congrats OP, well done. You should follow up with a detailed post for inspiring monkey's.
So what did you learn OP? Never give up?
I dunno dude. Dont know if Im in a position to instruct because the way I have taken has been so utterly difficult and taxing. I feel like the normally prescribed methods discussed on this site of networking are extremely overrated. The vast majority of the alums I emailed trying to network with didn't reply, and only a few gave me any time to talk. Only one of them gave any particularly useful advice, which while it isn't the point of networking, was kind of disheartening. The rest didn't make themselves at all open to following up, and several basically told me to give up.
I spent countless hours making models, researching industries and companies in order to make pitches (which have turned out to be thorough and validated through time), though that hasnt actually been a factor up to this point. I have traveled across the country on my own dime to interviews where I was told I didnt show enough enthusiasm/interest in the sector after pitching a stock in the sector that had a 66% gain prior to the rejection. My relationship with my father has been damaged because of my perseverance and his insisting that I give up. I broke up with a girlfriend who was finishing an mba in part so she wouldnt feel encumbered by my lack of a paying job and thus her being necessitated to help me get by/my lack of desire/ability at the time to propose to her (shes older - and there were other problems, but these factors were significant in my decision, and she has since moved several thousand miles away for a job offer).
That all said, Ive gotten in general 2 normal responses from other people when Ive been rejected before.
1) Just get over it (whether the further advice being to ignore it or to give up pursuing finance and to pursue something else entirely) 2) That which doesnt kill you just makes you stronger/never give up
I think these ignore that these difficulties have caused very real damage to my personal relationships and myself which I will probably always carry with me. I am very fortunate for where I am now, and have a lot of things to be thankful for. At times, Ive felt very resentful for the nepotism that Ive seen in finance, and Ive felt like going up to some of the people who Ive seen/met/heard about who act entitled and selfish and just shaking them and telling them "You have no idea how lucky you are! It could all be taken away from you at any moment, and there are others out there who you're flaunting your luck to, who deserve what you have by chance to a much greater degree!"
If I could distill my efforts and take only the minimal actions necessary to actually get where I have, theyd involve none of the following:
Any of the networking Ive ever done None of the applying to any of the non boutique firms I've done No significant case studies or heaps of technical questions (thus none of the studying Ive done on case studies, none of the pitches Ive written, and none of the training Ive put myself through in my free time including doing models from scratch 20 times to become proficient) None of the frankly enormous amount of help Ive given to other people on this site (which has been significant - this is not the username I usually use, and on the other, Ive hooked up upwards of a hundred people with materials/contacts theyve requested) None of the enormous amount of help Ive received from people on this site (for which I will always be grateful, and which I will do my best to reward, both to them and to anyone who asks me for help in the future)
Heres what it would include:
4 cold emails through postings to small firms
I do feel like on average, the things I mentioned would help. They didnt help in my case. But I do feel like they were good practice, and that Im a better person for having put myself through them and that if I knew that I could distill my efforts to the small bit I did which actually mattered with the same results, I might go a bit bonkers. But who knows, maybe itll pay off in the long run. Ive made some good relationships with people, many of whom I have a great amount of respect/admiration for.
I suppose that I learned the value of on campus recruiting, familial relationships/personal relationships with people who are in positions to make hiring decisions, and the fact of the standardization of the hiring process for financial firms. And also I learned of the mercentalistic nature of people, and that you have to appeal to peoples desire to advance themselves/self interest to succeed. Its an important lesson.
Can you go into more detail on how you eventually got the job...cold email and interview process I guess? Did all your modeling, case study, etc. Practice not pay off when it came time to close the deal?
congrats man..
Cold email, had a few phone interviews and a meeting with the md Ill be working with primarily. No case studies, though I had previously sent an example lbo model which Id put together and some of the pitches Id written.
I doubt that it helped much more than compared with if Id only done the internships and been able to articulate the experience there well. And none of them had modeling/case studies in the interview process, and most of what I did, I learned on the job there/was trained to do there.
Don't get complacent (not saying that you would), now that you're in. Work just as hard as you did when networking and hustling for a job at your workplace, and you'll get even farther.
Why are you using a different username than normally? Aren't they both anonymous anyway?
Yes, but when Ive asked for advice before, particularly on this account, Ive put more personal information in to it to as well as my personal feelings, which I wouldnt divulge otherwise. I also have networked extensively on that account so plenty of people know who I actually am, and Id rather them not know the reservations/vulnerable feelings Ive had about pursuing finance.
I really don't think you can discount all the time and effort you put into networking and researching stocks. You never know if a random comment someone made or a small snippet you read somewhere made a difference when you repeated it in an interview.
I went through a similar struggle as you. 13 months on the hunt. 6 months unemployed, over 100 interviews and a dozen case studies. Every day in the library researching stocks and putting together pitches while my bank account dwindled. Bounced around and lived in 3 different apartments around NYC as I interviewed week after week with no results.
It was coming on Christmas and I knew if I didn't grab an offer before the holidays I'd be unemployed for at least another month. Was a hair away from giving up before things clicked and I finally got an offer at a value hedge fund. I remember strutting through Times Square right after I got the call, feeling on top of the world.
Looking back I was immensely stubborn - I refused to take any other job besides the hedge fund gig I knew I was worth. I have no idea how I made it through without having a breakdown and I wouldn't recommend my path to anyone else either. That being said to me, it was worth it. I make three times as much as my parents do combined and I work on cool shit every day.
Not sure what the point of my post is but seriously, congrats. Getting the offer after so many months of struggle was one of the best feelings I've ever had in my life.
i love reading posts like this. affirmation that the american dream still exists.
Congratulations! I feel so happy for you! Great job!
Well done!
at what point to give up (Originally Posted: 03/09/2011)
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Where is Jimmy Valvano when you need him
haha seriously, when I hear that guy today it still gives me a shiver...awesome stuff
You should never really give up, just do something on the side that pays the bills (like your current job) until you're able to get something you like.
Regarding biz school, I read an article that was posted here a little while ago that discusses how the adcoms like to see people who have done ordinary jobs in an extraordinary manner...so you shouldn't count yourself out. And since you're working BO, must mean you have nights & weekends free, so use that time very wisely to buld a good story.
I'm so glad to find this post as I totally see myself currently in the same situation of getting stuck in BO. I wasn't lucky enough to get FO interviews but as you guys said, I should and will keep sending resumes. Just wondering one thing though... I heard that the longer one stays in BO, the harder it's going to be for him/her to make the move as the BO label is already on his/her profile. It sounds like a dilemma... I definitely don't want to get stuck for too long (I graduated late 2009 and have been on my current job at a big custodian bank for almost 2 years), but I have my bills to pay too. My question is, should I take the risk and quit now, so that I can spend time networking and studying financial modeling, instead of being a 9-to-5 macro-runner? I would really appreciate your advice...
Don't give up, ever.
When you die.
That's the mentality.
You never give up, but you have a Plan A, Plan B, etc lined up. At some point, you start devoting more energy to Plan B, Plan C, etc and less to Plan A.
Life is a game of Manhattan Paths. If a light doesn't change for you right now, you can always go in the perpendicular direction and make progress.
I was in a similar position but with a much shittier job. I was working for the Local government making absolute dogshit money ($15.61/hr to be exact) and I had many days when I felt that I was never going to get another job. I had a few interviews with I banks and some other firms and felt I did well but nothing ever panned out. Finally, two weeks ago I accepted an offer with a boutique consulting firm. While not my ideal position it certainly beats the hell out of what I was doing. Bottom line: Never stop believing. The only way you won't be able to leave your current job is if you up hope and quit trying to get another job. I know it sucks now but giving up will only solidify your position in the back office. Don't let your age or anyone else hold you back from doing what you want to do.
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When I feel like giving up, I stop feeling like that and be awesome instead.
True story.
I was going to preface that with something insightful, but it has all been said.
Time is the most important commodity. Use it wisely.
How I Met Your Mother: Love that show, no matter how cheesy it may be
Ayn Rand? Great quote
BankerC159 One thing that I think helped me a lot throughout my search was I put less and less importance on each interview. At the beginning of my search I would get really excited and do all the things they tell you to do: read the guides, look at the website, etc. etc. I think placing the extra emphasis on it didn't allow me to really come through as myself in the interview and ultimately led me to getting rejected an awful lot after the phone interview/2nd round interview. I noticed when I loosened up and let my personality come through I was able to get a lot more final round interviews and I finally got an offer after searching for the better part of 2 years. Believe me I know it sucks. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.
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"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark. In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but never have been able to reach. The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it is yours."
Hang in there bro, you'll get there.
Relevant to this thread... I went from an FO job at a crappier BB to an MO job at GS (they kind of tricked me, made it sound like it wasn't MO, but oh it was). I thought I was F'ed for life at that point and stuck in the MO. I used to carry this quote around with me in my wallet when I was there to keep my spirits up when I was working the soul crushing GS hours but I knew I didn't have an FO bonus coming to me. I eventually got out of that rut, and you will too. Just keep at it, and you will prevail. I didn't get to where I am (at a hedge fund) by the traditional route either, and you know what? I got to enjoy most of my 20's, and I wouldn't trade a lot of those memories for ANY amount of money in the world.
That's an Ayn Rand quote? That's beautiful, so why do people keep saying she's a "horrible" writer/stylist?
awesome quote.... + 1 SB
some of the best senior bankers I know couldnt make the street before they eventually got in
keep your head up and keep going
its a marathon not a race
Really? if so that is truly inspiring
skip to 9:20
There are 4 of big 4. If you haven't already, try talking to the other 3. If you were good enough on paper for one, I assume you could interview with the other three (since they're all the same). By your fourth interview I'm sure you'll be relaxed. Although, structured finance is probably a tougher niche to get into with them. However, they seem to all be hiring right now for various advisory positions in big markets, i.e transaction services, M&A, etc. Perhaps one of those gigs would be step in the right direction out of the BO. Or at least it could help your case for better B school after two years. I am in a similar boat in that I chose the awesome career path of public accounting which regulates most to a life of BO. I am planning my escape to be through transactions services.
lol was wondering why this was so familiar.
When to give up? NEVER!
Dude, seriously. I graduated May 2009, no offers and only two interviews of substance in my last semester, didn't get a job until April 2010. Yes it sucks, but you got to keep pushing. I picked up a job as a financial advisor with the intent to mainly 1) pay the bills, and 2) do something while I keep looking for what I really want.
Fast forward since April 2010, I went from literally earning less than my state's minimum wage (seriously, starting as a retail advisor sucks) to now something pretty decent (same company), and I've had informational interviews with MDs at high-end boutiques (think Greenhill, Sandler O'Neill, Evercore kind of level), met monty09 and those guys in person at Energy Rodeo--by the way, definitely go to that if they do another one--and had a for real interview not too long ago.
I don't say all of that to brag, since I have a lot more still that I need to accomplish, but just to show you that failures in the past have absolutely no bearing on what you can do tomorrow. At least you have a job, where I had to start unemployed. I am thinking about doing the MBA route myself; that may be a good option if you can slay the GMAT.
don't sweat it, sometimes the long way there is the better way there
Yeah just building on what I said previously I was the same way. I thought one job would completely change my life and who I am. I think over the course of the search I realized jobs come and go and they don't really define who you are as a person. We put all this pressure on ourselves to compete against our friends and classmates and people on these boards but in the end if that defines you as a person, you are in a pretty sad state of affairs. I think its hard to put things in perspective but I'm sure 5-10 years down the road you will look back and realize you got all worked up over nothing.
One thing I struggled with was just remaining confident in myself. There were several times I questioned why I even tried and thought maybe I was just not good enough. I know its tough but if you don't believe in yourself who will?
I was in the same position as you till eventually a personal contact who is a banker in an emerging market local bank with an IBD helped me get an unpaid internship, which eventually led to a paid full time role. Despite all the above disadvantages I enjoyed it alot more than my BB BO job in London. Just been accepted to a top tier international MBA and sitting CFA level I in June. I'm sure my experience will pay off and help get me where I want. You have the right approach with Plan A,B,C....X. Your timing is unforunate, nothing you can do about that. The next bull is just around the corner, and you'll look back on these days and be glad you didn't stop trying. Perhaps most importantly you already know what you want to do. It took me a few more years and a couple of career switches to figure that part out.
You might not like your current position, but you can always adjust your sail to reach your destination. Pal, you need patience and perseverance to succeed. Nothing beats perseverance. You don't give up in the fight for your "future", just change your strategy and the way you approach things. At home we like to say " we have lost the battle, but we haven't lost the war." If you don't have perseverance in your vein, you will soon lose the war, but you don't want that to happen. Do you?
Never give up. Just take something else in the meantime, if need be.
Never give up, never surrender! Keep doing what you're doing, get those interviews lined up, prep as you've done before and with more practice you'll gain that extra edge that will keep you cool when you're interviewing. Just think, the worst thing that can happen is they say no... they're probably losing out if they do.
Just do what I did when I was looking for a job out of college last year... before I walked out the door to go to the interview I would practice my opening line (the first crucial 10 seconds) in the mirror until I felt very comfortable saying/looking it (the smile, the handshake, the facial expression etc.). When I got into the interview, I usually answered all the questions well but then tried to steer the convo in another direction, make it a true conversation, not a Q&A. What's the difference? You find things that are relatable to discuss and unless the other person is from Mars, you will find one topic you can explore together and go down that thread until something else pops up. Look around their office and see anything that is interesting that you'd like to know more/ask about.
Bottom line: confidence is key! If you believe you will get the job, chances are, the interviewer will have an easier time believing it too. Good luck!
I'm in a similar situation (minus knowing if I actually want to work in finance, but I was going to post something very similar to this last night ). All i can say is definitely don't give up if this is what you really want to do. If you know this is where you wanna be I don't think there is anything that should stop you from moving forward.
I'm in a very similar situation to you OP and I've felt the same way before. Like everybody else said, don't give up. You'll regret it for the rest of your life.
well while it is nice and encouraging to hear the words... don't give up / keep going, shouldn't he re-strategize? I am also in a similar boat and have been looking with no luck. With 2 years out of undergrad, seems exponentially unlikely that companies will look at us 'non-seniors' for analyst positions.
I've also heard a lot about applying to b-school. But realistically, schools take students who have 5 years of exp on average and only having 2 or 3 years of exp doesn't look phenomenal. Besides slaying the gmat, also need to get good recommendations and activities that make you stand-out.... sounds just as hard / maybe harder than getting into an ibank.
don't want to come out as a debbie downer but just encouraging for people, esp who have been in such gutter, to share their gettaway from quicksand
Well, if you want to do IBD, you are kinda screwed without an MBA. But if you want to do trading, the cool thing is that anyone who saves up $500 to open a brokerage account and is not restricted by their firm's compliance policies (ironically, you have a huge advantage if you don't work for a bank) can trade.
I would recommend focusing on being the best you can be in your existing line of work, thrifting like crazy, and saving money up for a brokerage account. If you can really get the 5-10% alpha it takes to be a good trader, you'll see your invested assets grow a lot faster, until one day you find yourself needing a Bloomberg machine and then traders to help you manage your book. Then you can tell all of us that we were idiots for not hiring you and that we can all go to hell. :D
How doable is it to do something like this and succeed? Are there lots of people out there who've just successfully traded their own money and made a small fortune?
I almost feel like giving up too I don't even know where to apply anymore There are only a handful of consulting firms with a line of business that I'm interested in and financial firms don't look at me seriously I'm stuck in this dead end job, not sure what my career path is
Don't get depressed- just keep working hard and saving money and one day, your job will matter less than your dividends.
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