How much should you pay in market making games

If the question for ex is you get the dollar amount on a 6 sided dice roll -> $3.5 expected value, what is the right answer to say for what you should pay?

Intuitively I feel it needs to be $3.25 or less, but maybe the better answer is anything less than $3.5 ?

Bonus: If you were given a million dollars but need to return it in a few days, how would you invest it.

Thanks :)

 

while the statistical avg is 3.5, you can't actually roll a 3.5 so its either going to be (on avg) a 3 or a 4....

1/6 = 16.666% and a die has 6 sides so, at the narrowest, i would be 3.33 bid vs 3.67 offer

however, when being asked "what should you pay?" the answer is obviously "something below the expected value of 3.5 and the lower the better"

depending on how many rolls you get (and the possibility of other bidders potentially competing away your bid) will determine how close to 3.5 i would be willing to pay. If just 1 roll, then my bid would be 3 or below. If there are competitors bidding, then i would bid just over 3 (3.05)

just google it...you're welcome
 

It's interesting, the nobody got the correct answer. There is a theme in these questions, how do you think about risk? I think a good answer would be that how wide you make you dice market depends on how often you're going to play, who's money it is, how much money you're better on it, etc. With the million dollars overnight, you could put it in a bank account overnight and get one night of interest, or you could take it to the casino and bet the whole thing on 00. The right answer is somewhere in between, depending on the circumstances. When you're trading a book on a dealer desk, you actually could bet the whole thing on 00 and some people have done that, although risk departments are getting a lot better at spotting this. A fun answer for the dice might be, "well the expected value is $3.50, but the max you would pay depends on how much risk you want to take. {insert details} ...But even an argument could even be made to pay zero. I saw a 5 dollar bill on the ground on the way here but I didn't stop because I didn't want to be late to interview with your bank. If you gave me a chance to trade, I'd only take risk when I was making enough money to be worthwhile and believed I could cut my losses on any one position before losing too much. The idea is to make money consistently and manage my risk."

 

Assuming a two-wide market then 3.49 - 3.51 is the only correct answer. Moreover, if your market is any wider then a competitor will happily quote tighter and take all the volume. Also, who is your counterparty here? How on earth is any reasonable counterparty ever taking this trade wider than 3.49-3.51, even if a competitor MM did not immediately tighten their market to that (as they undoubtedly would)?

"I think a good answer would be that how wide you make you dice market depends on how often you're going to play, who's money it is, how much money you're better on it, etc"

This is good and I agree that these questions are as much an attempt to see how you reason about risk as about anything else.

"But even an argument could even be made to pay zero. I saw a 5 dollar bill on the ground on the way here but I didn't stop because I didn't want to be late to interview with your bank. If you gave me a chance to trade, I'd only take risk when I was making enough money to be worthwhile and believed I could cut my losses on any one position before losing too much."

I think this, however, is far too cute. Firstly, if you'd stopped to pick the bill up it would have taken you about five secs, an irrelevant margin in term of being early or late for an interview. Secondly, these questions typically emerge in the context of a final round onsite interview. They are roughly looking for certain answers, and anything too far outside the pale raises eyebrows in a negative way (market makers are looking for people who systematically handle risk in a clear, reproducible, and consistent way).

"The idea is to make money consistently and manage my risk."

Passing up the opportunity to make an absolutely fixed-in-stone long term 1c +EV trade because there may be better opportunities elsewhere, when a) these opportunities have not been mentioned in the context of the question and b) taking tens of billion of long term 1c +EV trades is the definition of the market maker profit system, will not be looked on favourably. There are plenty of better ways to show how clever you are in a final round interview than to argue that you would bid 0 for the expected value of a dice roll.

 

Given that this is a market making game, and not a long-term investment game, I think the right answer would be $3.49.

Cost of capital doesn't matter here because we assume that the game is instant.

Risk matters, but only if you have a small amount of money. For example, if you only have $0 and you take on $3.49 in debt to pay for the game, you'll end up broke half the time, and that's probably something that you want to avoid. So you'd pay less for the game - maybe $1.50. There isn't really a right answer there. But if you have a lot of money, to the point where you can easily diversify and $3 doesn't really matter to your overall net worth, you could pay up to $3.49 for the game. This is a diversifiable vs systematic risk thing: dice risk is uncorrelated with the market and therefore diversifiable by definition, so we don't add any risk premium for it.

Re. the second question, T-bills / money market I guess. Given that I have to return the money in a few days, and I assume the investor is expecting a return, I'd rather invest in something that actually guarantees me a return instead of something with a roughly 50% chance of failure.

 

I respectfully disagree. I think it's not worth your time to get involved in a single dice roll to make 1 penny. The counterargument is that if you can roll the dice 1 million times a day then it's great. So in the interview you can discuss that, and other things that would indicate you understand how to trade. You say you can pay up to 3.49. Well if you mention 3.49 in your answer you better talk about liquidity. Because we're not actually talking about dice, we're talking about trading, right? I mean, the interviewer is a probably a trader if they're asking you this question. Truth be told, if you say 3.49 it's probably a bad answer. Let's say you have to bid something in comp and you think you can sell it for 3.5 million. Do you bid 3.499999 million? No you definitely don't. 

 

I understand what you're saying. But the reason why I stand by $3.49 here, specifically as an answer to the interview question, is because of 4 key assumptions (none of which were actually mentioned in the question, these are just things that I assumed based on similar questions I've had in interviews): 1) we have perfect information about the game, 2) the game completes instantly, and 3) we can diversify, and 4) the market for this hypothetical "dice roll" investment is efficient. If any of these assumptions is wrong, I agree with you though. Here's my reasoning:

  1. We need to have perfect knowledge of the game. In other words, there's no risk of being trapped in a bad game that we don't actually want to play. In the real world, you don't bet at exactly the expected value because you don't have perfect information: you don't know the weights on each face of the die so you have to just give it an educated guess. Odds are that the other side of the trade is just as smart as you, and they're trying to make money too. However, I think perfect information is a reasonable assumption for an interview question. In all the market maker interviews I've had, they've never tried to trick me with a gotcha about information being left out / inaccurate.
  1. Since the game completes instantly, there is no opportunity cost to play the game. In the real world, there's always an opportunity cost. You'd never bet so that your expected value is under the risk-free rate because you could always just invest in risk-free bonds instead. But if the dice game finishes instantly, you're not losing another opportunity by investing in the dice roll.
  1. Like I said above, diversification is critical. If I'm putting all of my money into a single roll of this dice game, there's no way I'm betting $3.49 on it. But if it's just a small part of a large, diversified portfolio, I don't see anything wrong with betting $3.49. In fact, if I have enough uncorrelated $3.49 bets, I am nearly guaranteed to make a profit. But even if I'm only allowed one bet, as long as it's not correlated with my other investments I'm in the clear.
  1. If the market isn't efficient, I'm not betting $3.49. If the "going rate" for dice rolls is only $2, of course I will bet only $2 to maximize my own profit. But given that this is a market making game, I assume that if I bid $2, someone will outbid me. I am willing to outbid them until I eventually hit $3.49, at which point if they bid $3.50 I will no longer outbid them. But if the market rate is $3.49, there is no reason to lose out on that 1¢ in expected value.

If you look at the bid-ask spread for something like SPY, it's usually just a couple of cents. Oftentimes, it's a market maker on both sides of the spread. This is a very similar situation to betting $3.49 on the dice roll. The reason they're able to get away with it is that they're very well-diversified. Even if they make a lot of losing bets, they will usually make enough winning bets to net a profit. Combined with the speed at which they trade, they're able to make pretty good returns.

 
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Other people are right that the point of the game (in interview) is to see how you think and handle about risk. They won't ask you 'make me a market on a contract which pays out $ equal to a single dice roll' and then go to another topic. Say you $3.1-3.9 for your market on a single contract.

"Now make me a market for 10x the size on another dice roll" - What does your spread look like now?
"I buy 7 contracts from you. Make me another market for 10 contracts." - What does your spread look like now?
"I sell you 9 contracts. What is your position now? What is the most you can lose?" - Have you been keeping track of everything? Can you keep your cool under pressure?
"Now make me a market on a contract which pays the mean of 100 dice rolls"  - What does this spread look like relative to the others?
"Now make me a market on a contract which pays out equal to my address number" - What does this look like?

Point is the first answer doesn't even matter provided it's not stupid like 3.49-3.51 or 1.5-5.5 (some interviewers might entertain a conversation on why you might make a spread like that and BigData24's answer has some good points on that, but others will just think you're being pedantic/smart-alec because they want to get on with the rest of the game)

 

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