How to be persistent without being annoying?

I am a non target junior with a 3.6GPA. I have been consistently networking for a summer analyst position over the past 4-5 months through cold emailing and referrals. I have built up quite a few relationships with people and it seems to be going well so far. I am at the point where I really want to get interviews and I dont want to be left behind or lost in a pile of applications/resumes. Some of the firms I have been talking to have recently told me that some things have changed and the best thing to do is to apply online. Other places have told me my resume is under review currently and if they are interested I should hear back soon. Should I continue to network and talk to people or should I just let it go and see what happens? I am thinking there is a possibility that they see me as annoying and just tell me to apply online so I will go away, but also at the same time it seems that they might be telling the truth..... What should I do?

Thanks in advance

Comments (128)

Oct 12, 2014

the people who are saying apply online are not interested in attaching their name to you so they are saying apply online and let it go through hr then to the hiring manager and if you make it through that relationship will help but i wouldn't annoy them.

Oct 12, 2014

Thanks for your response pubfinanalyst---- The thing is, most of the relationships I have made are with analysts. Now that recruiting time has gotten closer I have asked them to pass my resume along and such. They have been more than happy to put me in touch with people on the recruiting team. I would then reach out and have a few back and forth emails with them and eventually they tell me that I should apply on the company website. For another place they told me that right now they are focused on full time recruiting and that if I want to apply to our summer internship program, please visit our website. Should I get back in touch with them in the near future to still try to get on a phone call or just hope that they pick me for an interview via the online application?

Oct 12, 2014

well did you put their names in when you submitted your online apps?

Oct 13, 2014

one of the apps was just upload a resume and thats it -- so no

Oct 13, 2014

Haha... that's great. Lots of dickheads in the industry. Don't sweat it, just move on. You weren't being annoying.

Oct 13, 2014
XPJ:

Haha... that's great. Lots of dickheads in the industry. Don't sweat it, just move on. You weren't being annoying.

I can't think of a single industry with more dickheads than finance...

Maybe that's why I like working for myself? lol

Oct 13, 2014

Just chalk it up to experience...and no, you weren't being annoying, as he left the door open by saying " I don't THINK"...which can be interpreted (rightly so) as uncertainty in the matter.

Oct 13, 2014
sofib09:

Just chalk it up to experience...and no, you weren't being annoying, as he left the door open by saying " I don't THINK"...which can be interpreted (rightly so) as uncertainty in the matter.

XPJ:

Haha... that's great. Lots of dickheads in the industry. Don't sweat it, just move on. You weren't being annoying.

alexpasch:

Whatever dude, some people are dicks; though without reading the emails it's hard to say for sure...

he's probably a dick and was having a bad day. keep going

Oct 13, 2014

Whatever dude, some people are dicks; though without reading the emails it's hard to say for sure...

Oct 13, 2014

Post his picture.

Oct 13, 2014

Move on. You win some you lose some. No need to respond

Oct 13, 2014

You shouldn't have cold emailed asking for internship...you ask to grab coffee or have a quick call to learn more about the industry and other such BS.

Oct 13, 2014
Cartwright:

You shouldn't have cold emailed asking for internship...you ask to grab coffee or have a quick call to learn more about the industry and other such BS.

If you're looking for an internship for NEXT summer (2012) then coffee sounds good ...but if you need something in a month or two, why not just email (especially if you have a decent resume)? This is what other cert users have told me - I'm not saying that they're any more experienced than you.

Not to mention the biggest factor - geography. Coffee's not so easy when you live far from any financial hubs...and not everyone lives near NY, SF, etc.

And if you have absolutely no connection/commonality with which to draw from when reaching out, are you still supposed to think that a transparent informational interview request will result in a banker offering me an internship in a couple months? You know 993837million times more than me - please don't think I'm a snotty know-it-all, I'm just sayin...

Oct 13, 2014
Cartwright:

You shouldn't have cold emailed asking for internship...you ask to grab coffee or have a quick call to learn more about the industry and other such BS.

This. I don't know what your original email specifically said, but his first response leads me to believe you came on a little strong with the internship talk. He would have at least referred you to an analyst if you framed it as if you were just looking to learn more about the industry, and not secure a job right off the bat.

His second response was still very dickish. He's probably going through one or more divorces at the moment though, so don't hold it against him.

Oct 13, 2014

You cold emailed a very busy guy and he actually took the time to answer your question. You ignored his answer and emailed him again. How does that make him a dick?

Oct 13, 2014
judowned:

You cold emailed a very busy guy and he actually took the time to answer your question. You ignored his answer and emailed him again. How does that make him a dick?

While you make good points, I think:

sofib09:

... he left the door open by saying " I don't THINK"...which can be interpreted (rightly so) as uncertainty in the matter.

and that he said "hiring" led the OP into asking for something "unpaid". His reply was dickish because he could've simply said, "I think you misunderstood me, we can't accommodate any more in interns."

@OP: You were definitely being persistent. Keep it up. Don't waste your time being a dick to dicks.

Oct 13, 2014

haha, this is hilarious!

Oct 13, 2014

One time I just cold emailed and got an initial reply saying "Try working on your grammar skills first." I couldn't find anything wrong with the email so I emailed him back asking him what was wrong and never heard from him again. No name boutique and mid-tier liberal arts educated MD. If they don't care enough to respond properly, they're probably not worth working for. I'm making a list of all the people who were excessively rude and hope I run into them again when I'm big. Brining karma back!

Oct 13, 2014

He could have just not responded, but he had to go the extra mile and call you out on your listening skills! He probably did you a favor though would you really want to work with someone like that anyway?

Oct 13, 2014

You didnt do anything wrong. Shit happens.

But i hve to say this is hilarious. Mind posting his emails in entirety? - of course delete the names.

Oct 13, 2014

Don't sweat it. Keep chugging.

Oct 13, 2014

lol

reminds me of how I coldcalled a BB here everyday (atleast 2 times a day) for the past 2 weeks, and everytime I asked to speak to that person (HR) he/she would be "busy", the receptionist would say after my call gets routed to his desk(on one of the calls, I heard his/her voice telling the receptionist what to tell me). The receptionist ended up speaking in a raised voice:" She says she is always busy!" Sent him/her 3 emails, no reply.

Instead of firing off a hot, anger-filled email, I remember what my hindu Indian friend (Krishnan, bless your soul buddy) would always say: Choo choo! The karma train is never late ;)

This MD will be in the same exact position you're in in a relatively short amount of time, just watch. He'll be even more desperate, and I'd laugh hysterically if another senior banker gave him the same answer :D

Heres a good question: Should I contact bankers directly or speak to HR (I usually get this answer: Check our website and complete an application)? If the latter, how do I get their contact information? What should I say in the initial e-mail? Sorry to hijack the thread (no pun intended lol)!

Greed is Good.

Oct 13, 2014

In the time you posted this and read all the comments, you could have reached out to other people.....

NEXT

Oct 13, 2014

Love all the responses. I am currently taking a break from sending out cold emails for a summer internship (real estate investment in case anyone has any leads) so this was quite timely.

1) I have to agree, yea ignore that guy, he was probably having a bad day.
2) I have found emailing works so much better than calling if it is cold, because people have email wherever they go, so it only takes 1 minute to respond to your request.
3) I don't think most people are offended if you cold email them with a short to the point letter stating your purpose and then throwing out an overview of your skill set.
4) Companies who "get it" know its always good to have quality people in their pipeline for when positions come open so it makes sense for them to at least spend 10 minutes on the phone with you if you're story is good.

Good Luck!

Oct 13, 2014

sounds like a worthless ahole. common in the industry and life

Oct 13, 2014

If you cannot stand a guy like, stay away from IBD. Spending time with dicks like this guy is everyday life of IB analyst util you become one of them. That's why the industry turnover rate is very high.

Oct 13, 2014

I usually try not to look too desperate and needy... If I were u, maybe I would wish him luck after getting the first reply. But having said that, that's just me. Don't think you did a wrong thing. Keep it up.

Oct 13, 2014

Would it kill you to say "i'm sorry, you are right. I misunderstood you. Have a good day" ?
Especially considering that you probably did come across as an over-eager beaver?

The guy is probably not in charge of hiring decisions, which is why he "didn't think" they were hiring interns.

More is good, all is better

Oct 13, 2014

Hahaha "buyout king"

Oct 13, 2014
Oct 13, 2014

it's like hitting on chicks at the club. you never get mad at the ones that reject you, you just keep moving on until you found the one that's DTF.

Oct 13, 2014
ChairmanMao:

it's like hitting on chicks at the club. you never get mad at the ones that reject you, you just keep moving on until you found the one that's DTF.

Why did he get monkey shit for this???

Oct 13, 2014

it could be a lot worse man.. ive had an MD respond to my cold emails, offer to help me out and everything.. then out of nowhere, he stop replying to calls and emails. Lol kinda strange but hey shit happens and u move on

Oct 13, 2014

I think its great...I'd rather get that then nothing in response. In fact, I would wait a week and then email him again saying that you had spent the week working on your listening skills and now you are ready to start the internship.

Oct 13, 2014
Bondarb:

I think its great...I'd rather get that then nothing in response. In fact, I would wait a week and then email him again saying that you had spent the week working on your listening skills and now you are ready to start the internship.

Please do this. I really want to know if this will work.

Oct 13, 2014

@OP: This is basically some guy's poor attempt at humor and making himself somehow feel important. Happens all the time and its never funny.

What would be funny is if you did this:

Bondarb:

I would wait a week and then email him again saying that you had spent the week working on your listening skills and now you are ready to start the internship.

And then post the repsonse along with his conatct info.

man made the money, money never made the man

Oct 13, 2014

"moneytary wise and environment wise."

Nice

Oct 13, 2014

You could fill a book with exchanges like this...

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Oct 13, 2014

Or don't write a form letter

Oct 13, 2014

sounds like a fact finding mission. I love people like that. I will tell you Asian women are very much that way. They will ask you a million questions that dont even pertain to the conversation you are having which makes it seem disengenuous and non empathetic.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

Oct 13, 2014
ProdigyOfZen:

I will tell you Asian women are very much that way. They will ask you a million questions that dont even pertain to the conversation you are having which makes it seem disengenuous and non empathetic.

This happened to me at a college party recently, most people were celebrating graduation and I'm getting interrogated about my job offer.

Oct 13, 2014
aspiringtrader:
ProdigyOfZen:

I will tell you Asian women are very much that way. They will ask you a million questions that dont even pertain to the conversation you are having which makes it seem disengenuous and non empathetic.

This happened to me at a college party recently, most people were celebrating graduation and I'm getting interrogated about my job offer.

hahahah classic! I know the feeling. Its incredible because they feel like they HAVE to KNOW everything about every possible variable in the job to succeed. I just go in and adapt to the situation.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

Oct 13, 2014

I love the kids who nod like fucking bobble heads as they try to "network"

Oct 13, 2014

^ It's in the education/culture. Creativity is suppressed. While that continues, it won't be a threat of an economy.

Oct 13, 2014

it is not an asian thing its an issue most young people have. I have been asked tons of questions about crap that does not matter but for some reason young folks want to know...

Oct 13, 2014
monty09:

it is not an asian thing its an issue most young people have. I have been asked tons of questions about crap that does not matter but for some reason young folks want to know...

Hey Monty whats going on? I agree that lots of young people could be like that. I was just trying to point out as the poster above said its a cultural thing to asians especially chinese women. It is just something I have noticed while I have meandered through life.

Its not necessarily a bad thing and I have known russian women to do the same thing. This is most likely the reason why a lot of people think certain asian groups or russians for example are socially awkward.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

Oct 13, 2014

What's an auto-reject email like? What did it say in the text?

Maybe it was some sort of mindf*ck game/test where they dangled a different position to see if you were actually interested in the one you applied for?

Oct 13, 2014

Auto reject was boiler-plate. Paraphrased, "Thanks for your interest in xxxx. After careful consideration, we have decided to go with other candidates. Your resume will remain in our system, and we encourage you to visit our career site....."

I thought the dangle too. I said to the interviewer, "so I am interested but do not want to seem ambiguous here" they said to not worry about that and the head wanted them to push me towards this other Role. Which, was again weird on why I never received the face to face, and makes me think I was dinged on the follow up. Who the hell knows.

My honest feeling was that hr made up that the head wanted me in the other role. I think after our convo, hr thought it would be a good fit (I knew that I was under-qualified though).

Oct 13, 2014

3 question marks in a title line? yes, you're being annoying

Oct 13, 2014

thanks for the input everyone.

I agree they do not make the decisions, but they are certainly the initial gate-keepers, especially if you can't pin down who to network with in the group.

Oct 13, 2014

6 hours!?!? START TO PANIC!!!!

In all seriousness though, they haven't forgotten about you and your persistence isn't going to change anything. I would maybe call your recruiter tomorrow as he has arguably the greatest vested interest in your success (outside of yourself obviously) as he's getting a decent check if you get placed. I would caution against contacting the people at KKR as I've heard of issues before where the company / recruiter gets pissed off for you trying to go around the system. As much as the recruiter is there to provide candidates part of their role is also to deal with the process so that the working professionals don't have to. If the people at KKR start getting blown up with emails they may wonder why the hell they're paying all that money to a recruiter which will in turn piss the recruiter off for you trying to cut them out.

Oct 13, 2014

Great thank you! It's been the culmination of not hearing back last week on the final word along with this. Just want to be sure I'm not leaving anything on the table. I appreciate your reply. Thanks

Oct 13, 2014

Dude this happens all the time. Sometimes things come up and people aren't able to get back to you right away. It happens.

Oct 13, 2014

Thanks Gunners. Would you recommend calling KKR directly or just letting the whole thing work itself out?

Oct 13, 2014

I would email them every 10 days or so. Just say "I hope you're doing well, I just wanted to follow up and check in regarding the status of my candidacy for the __________ role. I remain very interested in the position......................."

Oct 13, 2014

follow up every 30 mins-phone works best

Oct 13, 2014

This might be tough but I would say focus on applying to more positions and locking in new interviews. You have finished all the face-to-face you can do and have tried your best.

If you were to follow-up, email the person who gave you a verbal offer. Also in your emails don't just say
you are express interest, highlight (briefly!) how you can contribute and what areas you sincerely think differentiate you from others.

Oct 13, 2014

check your PM. =)

Oct 13, 2014

I never called unless it had been 15 days or I had another offer.

Oct 13, 2014

My theory is this, and don't take it too seriously because I'm getting nowhere with networking...

It takes 1 minute for him to look at your resume, 5 mins for him to talk to you on the phone and 2 mins for him to call someone and get you an interview. That's a total of 8 minutes of his day. No one is that busy that they can't spare 8 minutes of their day, or even 8 minutes over 2 months in your case.

If someone just won't get back to you...they aren't interested. Yes he has things to worry about all the time, but you don't just magically slip out of his mind, after all you did talk on the phone.

In my mind, if I was a senior person and I saw the resume of a kid I thought could really help my firm, I'd give him those 8 minutes of my day.

But what do I know, I'm having no luck getting an interview either. Call him until he responds.

Oct 13, 2014
wallstreetballa:

I've literally been playing hide and go seek with this ceo of a boutique for the past 2 months now....

in the last 8 times i've tried to get a hold of him, I've managed to get a hold of him once (last week) where he told me he's too busy to talk right now (after market hours) call back tomorrow morning. Problem is the "tomorrow morning" i last called ( a week ago) I got his secretary because he was in a meeting and was told he;d call me back (LOL).

Strong believer in never letting a lead die but at this point i really don;t know if i'm just annoying the dude or being persistent. Debating on calling one more time or emailing, what do you think fellas?

Call again. What do you have to lose?

Oct 13, 2014

The absolute worst that happens is this person ends up saying they can't speak to you or don't have a job available. If you think it is a promising lead, be respectful of his time and keep following up. If he truly doesn't want to talk to you the lead will go cold.

Oct 13, 2014

I called the MD I will be working for literally 9 weeks in a row - i really wanted that particular job. The way I looked at it was, if I do nothing I lose the lead. If I do a lot odds are he will help me out before he puts me on the do not answer list, I was guessing missed call 50 or so would put me there - so either way worse case is that I lose the lead. However, the upside was huge. Its good risk/reward.

These guys are busy and they do not mean to blow you off its just that they have millions of dollars flying around and literally 100s of emails to get to. Always be respectful of working people's time. Like dont call at 9am and always end any message/email by thanking them for their time.

Oct 13, 2014

I called a guy for a year.. when job opened i didnt even interview.. he said i have to hire you so you stop fucking calling me...

Oct 13, 2014

^^^
Reasons why Monty09 is a baller. Persistence. I wish I had it.

Oct 13, 2014

job was summer internship so not total baller.. but i did hit guy up like crazy..

Oct 13, 2014

Do you leave messages when you miss them or do you just call back later?

Oct 13, 2014
Magua:

Do you leave messages when you miss them or do you just call back later?

I never fully miss him, Its either him who I connect with or his secretary who I've ended up being close with. She tells me that she;ll tell him I called or she'll say she'll get him back to me which always makes me laugh

Oct 13, 2014

I hate this recruitment vein of "not a no but not a yes". Therefore if they don't say no, I'd keep calling. It looks like a test of your persistence more than a he's busy.

don't call during market hours. EVER

Oct 13, 2014

A little piece of advice about networking: Anyone who is not busy is not worth talking to....

Oct 13, 2014
Ray Finkle:

A little piece of advice about networking: Anyone who is not busy is not worth talking to....

this is the dumbest thing i have ever heard

Oct 13, 2014

Judging from all your comments especially MJ901s and Monty's, what i'm experiencing is actually normal.

I plan on attempting to get a hold of him next week, you guys are saying keep calling which i agree with, but I feel as if i should send him a detailed e-mail, or is that just a waste with a huge probability of getting shipped into thin air since he probably gets 33453 emails a day.

Oct 13, 2014

BTW, i really do appreciate all the feedback on this one gents

Oct 13, 2014

I have contacted big players before (guys who I met briefly on the golf course, I was caddie at the time). Example, head trader at one of the biggest shops on the street. It took awhile, probably 15 phone calls.

At the time contacted him, I was a sophmore. He gave me 30 minutes at his desk. He gave me alot of good advice. Long story short he told me wasn't qualified. Two months later he left me a voice mail putting me in contact with another MD at big PE shop. I interned at the PE shop.

Keep calling him. When you finally meet with him, he'll be real with you and take it from there.

Oct 13, 2014
Gordon Gekko:

"This is the kid, calls me 59 days in a row, wants to be a player. There ought to be a picture of you in the dictionary under persistence kid. "

"Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do"

Oct 13, 2014

Be ready for when he calls you back. It may be 10pm on Friday night, while you in the middle of pregaming. Keep working it kid. You'll do great.

Oct 13, 2014

How good of friends is "pretty good friends?"

Oct 13, 2014

I have his cell phone, we went on a 5-6day trip together last year for R&R (even though we met only by accident), and he invited me to lunch last time I was in HK (about 2 months ago).

Oct 13, 2014

Also, last time we met, he notified that he was hiring. He could've gotten me hired right away if I had a MBA. I went to lunch at his invitation (and expense) only for friendship, and had no idea something like this was going to happen.

Oct 13, 2014

How long have you guys been friends? How did you meet (did you meet for networking reasons, or other reasons)?

Oct 13, 2014

We've known each other since end of 2009. We spent quite a bit of time planning our R&R. We met on some hobby forum. (ahem, what are bankers mostly interested in?) Our trip was pretty damn good, and we spent lots of time discussing business/politics as well.

Oct 13, 2014
humble_chinese:

We've known each other since end of 2009. We spent quite a bit of time planning our R&R. We met on some hobby forum. (ahem, what are bankers mostly interested in?) Our trip was pretty damn good, and we spent lots of time discussing business/politics as well.

what cocaine forum are you on?

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Oct 13, 2014
humble_chinese:

We've known each other since end of 2009. We spent quite a bit of time planning our R&R. We met on some hobby forum. (ahem, what are bankers mostly interested in?) Our trip was pretty damn good, and we spent lots of time discussing business/politics as well.

I'm just trying to get a sense of whether, from his perspective, it looks like you just reached out to try and land a job. If so, I figure that he probably feels a lot less compelled to help you. That's totally different than someone you're friends with, who you met before banking, or at least where the relationship doesn't seem like it's based on career/networking. I honestly don't know anything about banking, so I could be way off, that's my opinion on relationships in general. For example, I recently had a guy who really helped me land interviews and make it to the final round at his company. Our relationships had been formed way before he worked there and I never even thought he'd help me careerwise. We had a friendship that was built on two people who thought highly of each other and got along. I think he spoke highly of me because he meant it, and because he wanted to help a friend.

Oct 13, 2014

dont be "annoying" be "persistent"

Oct 13, 2014

If you are in HK and he is a contact then do every attempt to get in contact with him. Otherwise, soon as you return you will hear from him/her and they will say you should have blown up phone up if you were here.

Oct 13, 2014

Can you guys be slightly more specific? I've been contacting him once a week. At what point does it become unacceptable? Is it more professional to call his office or his cell? Leave voicemails or no voicemail?

To the above commenter for "cocaine forum", you're pretty close, but no dice :)

Oct 13, 2014
humble_chinese:

Can you guys be slightly more specific? I've been contacting him once a week. At what point does it become unacceptable? Is it more professional to call his office or his cell? Leave voicemails or no voicemail?

To the above commenter for "cocaine forum", you're pretty close, but no dice :)

now im interested. pm me site as im always into the fringe

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Oct 13, 2014

This is one random post. Since he is a random contact I would just call his cell phone. Try to get through his secretary. He may be really busy.

Oct 13, 2014
nontarget:

This is one random post. Since he is a random contact I would just call his cell phone. Try to get through his secretary. He may be really busy.

Hmm... I do not have access to that information. I can try calling the main and ask for his secretary I guess...

Oct 13, 2014

Play it off the assistant. Act like you guys are good buddies, and she'll spill all the beans.

Oct 13, 2014

bump to try to get more advice

Oct 13, 2014

let me guess.. watch forum?

Oct 13, 2014

So this guy doesn't pick up his office line, and he doesn't have an assistant/secretary. What do I do? What's the max number of times I should call someone's cell phone? 3? 2? 1? 10?

Oct 13, 2014
humble_chinese:

So this guy doesn't pick up his office line, and he doesn't have an assistant/secretary. What do I do? What's the max number of times I should call someone's cell phone? 3? 2? 1? 10?

How did it go?

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Oct 13, 2014

dude you're waitlisted and they're waiting to hear back from somebody i can't imagine this is any clearer; keep looking elsewhere. pissing off an MD is the absolute last thing you want to do. you did great for a non-target already

Oct 13, 2014

Sit tight, dude. I know how nerve-racking the process is, but if you're waitlisted you are not far and above the top dog. You're neck-and-neck with the other candidates. Don't give anyone from the bank reason to pull you from the race.

Oct 13, 2014

One day, I'm going to just leave like 3 candidates hanging; and the first one to "annoy" me, gets the job. I would do that for something like a sales job, where persistence/balls are important. (I read somewhere that a good hiring practice is to tell people that they didn't get a job, and see what they say back; if they protest and say you are making a big mistake, then they're worth the hire, haha).

Oct 13, 2014

You may have a sell-day at some point, essentially a matchmaking process. Firms will bring in everyone they've extended offers to, and candidates will meet representatives from multiple groups. The groups rank their favorite candidates, candidates prioritize their favorite groups, and decisions are made based on matrixing the two.

Oct 13, 2014

Interviewing for what?

Professional Bro,
J. Cans

Oct 13, 2014

Congrats man. I would actually try reaching out to HR - they might have a better idea of where you will be placed. Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to reach out to people in the equity team, but I wouldn't go overboard if you're worried that they might get annoyed. Maybe pick 1 or 2 people to reach out to.

Oct 13, 2014
Comment

"I must create a system or be enslaved by another man's." William Blake

Oct 13, 2014
Oct 13, 2014
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You can't kill the guys you trade with

Oct 13, 2014