Basically the title guys. I graduated from a non-target in Dec 12' with decent grades (3.6), solid internships/work experience, and a major in finance. Also have 6 months of experience as a credit analyst and recently picked up an unpaid boutique IB internship (part time).
I'm interested in knowing what steps I need to take in order to break into TS/TAS. Should I apply for MACC programs or will networking with alumni be my best bet? I would really appreciate some advice/opinions, thanks.
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First of all, I only did audit in B4 so anyone who has done TAS, please chime in.
The two paths of course would be straight to TAS or go to another service line first (such as audit) and transfer. I am told that fewer people go straight from undergrad to TAS, but again I'm open to hear from others. Some firms like EY have rotation programs, where you'd spend time in audit and TAS. But to your point, networking (and letting your counselor and team know your goals once you establish yourself) are the best bet. Your opportunities are going to vary from office to office, TAS at my old firm seems to be doing well right now so there is opportunity.
If you do audit first, it's fine to say you eventually want to move to TAS, but try to do so in a way that they won't get butthurt that you're dissing audit (which I would find totally understandable but some might not).
The MACC would not help your chances per se, most people do it to get 150 credit hours for the CPA. But I can tell you once you start in B4 it won't matter. I also think the IB internship and credit analyst stint will be of interest to prospective interviewers, not that they necessarily mean you have a better chance but you have a good background.
Network with alumni from your school.
Apply to valuation shops, even non big 4, and then transfer. Going into Audit is a crapshoot, you might be able to network in after a year but if you go through the "official channels" I've seen it take 3 years for a TAS rotation.
A Macc/MSA program is always an option, but make sure you go to a school that feeds into TS/TAS before you go spending the money and time. Don't do audit or tax if you want to do valuation. As Ruskii said, it's a crapshoot to transfer internally at Big 4 firms. You have to be highly rated to even be considered. Most first year audit staff get middle of the road ratings that are pretty much arbitrary, so that sets you back at least a year without even considering other factors. For now, just network and start applying to valuation shops. Think Duff & Phelps, Ocean Tomo, etc. Maybe study for the GMAT in your spare time and take it so you always have the option of more school if things don't work out.
What geography are you in? - I would discourage going into the big 4 in another service line (audit) and then trying to transfer. In my experience, it's uncommon and depends a lot on luck. - Second what Ruskii says. Try working at other valuation shops (second tier accounting firms like Grant Thorton, BDO, WTAS; boutique shops, etc.) and then work your way to Big4 if that's your goal. You'll see that all senior associate openings require previous valuation experience since its such a unique/specific skillset. Since you have that, you have a good shot. - You can do Macc programs (or even something like this http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/programs/macc-valuation/ if you are all in for valuation) but they obviously cost $$. If you do the macc valuation program, seems like you'd have a pretty good shot at big 4
Appreciate the replies guys. I'm currently in the northeast region. My school actually has a decent amount of people at the Big 4 and some 2nd tier firms as well. I dont think I could do audit work but studying for the GMAT couldn't hurt... Can I still apply for analyst positions (for this upcoming recruiting season) or would I not even be considered since I graduated in December? Also, assuming I know the email structures at most of the firms listed above should I attach my resume when reaching out to alumni or should I wait until after I speak to them on the phone/meet in person?
Big 4 valuation (specifically PwC) I know recruits directly out of undergrad, but specifically at a few target schools. Your best bet is to network, I've seen it done before by other kids who weren't at a target. Just know that it's definitely a possibility right out of undergrad-- I just did it.
^ Interesting - As an undergrad, when I've attended socials it seems like valuation/transactions is very very hard to break into straight out of college from everyone that I've talked to. A lot of people who are in it were in audit to begin with and didn't even know about the group until they started working for the firm.
Breaking in at the undergrad level is impressive so congrats to jckund...Does anyone have a list of of 2nd tier val shops that would be a good feeder into Big 4 down the road? I only know the main ones such as D&P, Grant Thornton, etc. Any advice on my previous question about attaching a resume when reaching out to alumni would be awesome too.
Valuation vs. TS/TAS are a different ball game from what I've seen. Some Val shops will take you without any experience and a finance major, whereas some TAS roles want the 1-2 yrs of Audit Experience. Obviously this is situation dependent, and it is possible to get into TAS without the Audit experience, but a lot of places have it as a pre-req. I can confirm that EY has a rotational TAS/Audit program, but they don't really interview for it and they only usually pull people from their internship program.
Plus, the Big 4 TAS groups usually require a CPA. Not necessary as other boutiques.
At a firm like Grant Thornton or McGladrey, you're likely going to be on an audit rotation for a good part of the year. So even if you get hired directly into their transactions practices, you're not necessarily going to be doing just valuation or due diligence the entire year.
Sparco- also look at some places like Alvarez & Marsal and AlixPartners. They're mostly consulting shops, but more recently they've opened up (and are looking to expand) their TS/Valuation divisions. I'm fairly certain they hire associates with no prior experience, but am not positive. D&P might be your best bet for an independent valuation firm.
Definitely would like to hear more about TAS Big 4 groups if anyone else can expound in terms of opportunities to be recruited out of undergrad and exit-opps.
Very rare to get into TAS out of undergrad from my understanding. Exit opps are other valuation shops (Duff & Phelps, A&M, HLHZ FO, etc.), MM IB (particularly in Chicago & MW), and a select few may be able to leap directly into PE funds.
Why do you want to go from a pure val shop back to Big 4? I wouldn't consider D&P, A&M or any others a "second tier" shop.
I'm just looking to break into a decent valuation related role. I'd like to move into IB or Corp Dev down the road.
I think undergrad vs grad/experienced is very firm and region specific. At my firm, some regions recruit heavily from undergrad whereas some regions (like south / southeast) seem grad heavy.
How to break into the valuation industry (Duff&phelps, Big 4, etc.) from Ivy league rising senior?? (Originally Posted: 07/12/2015)
Hi guys,
Background:
School: Ivy League Major: Finance GPA: 3.7+
I'm a rising senior who's had past experiences in finance. I met someone at Duff&Phelps in the Valuation Advisory Services, and I was extremely interested (learning about purchase price allocation and more). There's not as much about the valuation industry on WSO, so I'm hoping to hear more. So my questions are:
1) What firms should I be looking at--PwC (transaction services), Deloitte(business valuation), Duff&Phelps are obvious ones. Do KMPG and EY have valuation sectors like these companies? Are there others I should be aware of?
For example here's Deloite's: http://usjobs.deloitte.com/san-francisco/finance/jobid7690048-dtba-busi…
2) I'm guessing I'm going to have to break into this by networking heavily? What if none of these companies in this valuation sector recruit at my school?
3) Any interview tips? I don't have much experience besides DCF modeling to value equities. Is there any guide/book I should read up to help me with the technicals?
Thanks!
Houlihan Lokey has perhaps the best regarded transaction advisory group on the street, so I'd say to have that in your headlights as well.
^Thanks. Any ideas how to prepare for interviews? Not sure what the technicals consist of....any ideas?
Also, is doing this a pretty good starting point?
Most people in big 4 valuation groups have advanced degrees and are working towards a designation. Typically a MACC/MSF and CFA/CPA. You rarely find people with ivy league backgrounds, though. Those with strong undergrads, if they're part of the organization at all, are in the consulting branch. Advisory works closely with consulting but gets paid substantially less and doesn't get the credit.
KPMG and EY do indeed have valuation groups.
^How come I see people in PwC Valuation/Transaction Services right from undergrad? I've found people from Penn State who went straight there? How the hell does that happen?
I dunno. Everyone in my group, literally everyone, has an advanced degree. Lots of Vandy and HEC Paris MSFs.
Just make sure you actually want to go into valuations. With your background, you should be able to get into IBD which will teach you valuation but also learn about companies, operations, industries, financings, and M&A transactions. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing what they are passionate about, but just encouraging to really think about it. Do you want the possibility of going to the buyside (private equity or hedge fund) in a few years? I've only met a couple people during my 5 years in IBD / PE that started in valuation groups. Exponentially better chances coming from IBD. If you want a career in valuations, that's fine too - just think about it. You'll never be an investor in valuations; just an analyst that runs valuations that people only rely on to paper files (legal reasons, accounting purposes, etc.) and not used to derive purchase price, negotiate, or structure deals.
Again, not downplaying the career of a valuation guy - just making some points to consider. But I would stab my eyeballs out if my job was purchase price allocations, opening balance sheet adjustments, and goodwill impairment testings. Because at the end of the day, none of these things create value or part of an investment thesis - they are just mechanical, similar to accounting.
And yes, they recruit directly from undergrad and on campus. Just usually at lower tier schools and not the ivies as most strong Ivey candidates want to do IBD or other areas of finance that are more difficult to break into. Houlihan has the best group IMO.
To answer why I don't want to get into IB, it's because I care about work/life balance, and I don't care about $$$ that much. Valuation has a solid starting pay and good ending pay (100k+ plus). That's good enough for me.
Does anyone know what the technicals would consist of in an interview? Would it be along the lines of:
How to value a company Walk me through a DCF Some stuff w/ WACC What's FCF
For your own good, do not bother showing up on monday. If you don't want to do banking, do not do it. Your posts include your gpa and current internship. Allows us to look at the resumes and know exactly who you are
I would disagree with the comment that valuation groups only do PPAs, Impairment Testing, and opening balance sheet adjustments. But want to caveat that my group is unique in the sense that we work with strategy consultants and for corporate development teams often vs. controllers/tax professionals.
Currently about 10 months in at a top valuation group and we never do impairment testing or balance sheet adjustments because our fees are too high. We do ROIC analysis, Fairness Opinions, and strategy work surrounding Spinoff/IPO readiness etc. We work across the entire deal spectrum and the only post deal work we do is the post-deal PPA.
If you care about work life balance, one of the top val. groups can get you into a top five business school (lots of Wharton, Chicago, Columbia admits from my group). After that you can pretty much go into any client facing business you want.
For PE, valuation is not the best opportunity tho. If you see yourself at a PE firm then I would pursue IB initially or after about a year in valuation. Also, I have seen valuation guys go to hedge funds (with progress towards the CFA designation). In terms of raw technical skills, there aren't many jobs out there where you learn more about financial statements and modeling.
I can confirm what is said above. Also, in my group, we have significant client face time. Advisory is continuing to integrate with strategy and ops consulting (to lower fee structure).
Unless you're doing consulting, stay away from the Big 4. Valuation is looked at as on-par with tax/audit. Know what the work actually entails and don't let the recruiters talk it up to you. I just got back from a non-consulting recruiting event at one of the firms you've mentioned and they indeed are filled with people from much lower-tier schools (not that there's anything wrong with that), you just have to decide whether or not your investment into your Ivy League degree is important when you could've just gone to a state school and ended up in the same exact place.
I'll second what others have said here. Consulting still requires a fair amount of technical skills and you'll receive a hell of a lot more praise from peers/future employers.
Agree that this is the general perception but the exit opps from my group are very impressive. This last month alone:
Credit Suisse IB Associate (6 months with us out of Rochester MSF) Moelis Capital (4 years experience - unsure about educational background) Another went to IB boutique in London (which was his target market)
I would also recommend looking at the econ consulting shops. Cornerstone, Analysis Group, Charles River Assoc, etc. Many of these teams do valuation intensive case work and you will work under the leading finance faculty at top business schools. The money is fine for just out of u/g and exit opps are good. Based on your background i think you'd be a pretty competitive applicant. Good work life/balance, although hours can get intense around filing deadlines/trial dates etc.
Can someone please show me or direct me to technical question resources? Can't find anything..??
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