How to stop the next epidemic before it starts (controversial)

earthwalker7's picture
Rank: Human | 14,619

Every single major epidemic in the last 2 decades has been zootic - that is originating in animals. We need to fix our food system, and put an end to animal agriculture. Animal ag has us raising 80 BILLION animals a year, and feeding them massive amounts of antibiotics, which leads to new and stronger viruses and bacteria. Since 2003 we've seen SARS, MERS, Swine Flu, Avian Flu, and now COVID-19.

It doesn't even matter anymore whether you care about animals, the environment, or your own health.

On a pure human survival level, we need to reform our food system and stop eating nearly as many animals. I'm talking about moving to a more plant-based diet, using cellular agriculture to make lab-based meats, etc. We need to deal with our food supply and its externalizes immediately, as if our lives depend on it ... because they do.

GFI's chief scientist published an oped on Wired Magazine today. It's worth a read... even if you're skeptical.

Wired - modernizing meat production will help us avoid pandemics

And from a business opportunity, there's money to be made in this disruption and innovation. Early investors in Beyond Meat's series A made 400x return on their money. I'm not saying that can happen so easily again, but if we quantifiable cannot feed the world's middle class animal protein. We need to invest in alternatives, and I think we can profit in the process.

Comments (147)

Mar 13, 2020

see also this piece from Royal Society

Livestock infectious diseases and zoonoses

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Controversial
Mar 13, 2020

Great thread, @earthwalker7"

In the meantime, there are also tremendous things that could have helped prevent the spread in America and can still help in the next pandemic. Remember, it isn't if, but when.

  1. The President should appoint a permanent Global Pandemic Director to sit on the National Security Council. This position was essential in global coordination and the effective prevention of a worldwide pandemic during the last Ebola outbreak. Trump eliminated the role entirely.
  2. The CDC should be fully funded. Trump cut CDC funding by 80%.
  3. Predict, a program established under George W. Bush to monitor animal-born diseases, should be not only continued, but enhanced and expanded. Trump discontinued the program.
  4. As many people as possible should be tested in order to effectively size the scale of the pandemic and better coordinate a response. South Korea has done a fantastic job at this, testing over 10,000 people a day. In America, fewer than 10,000 people TOTAL have been tested and the Trump administration refused to use the international test, instead insisting on creating their own, which delayed testing by weeks. They also failed to test various samples that they actually did get in time for them to be useful.
  5. Effective communication is essential. Trump has said the coronavirus is a "hoax," lied about the number of people who had it, claimed that it will just "go away," and then went on national television to give a nonsensical address that was clearly not fact checked and had to be clarified multiple times immediately after. The incompetence inspired the largest one-day stock market drop since 1987 - larger than the dot com bust, larger than 9/11, and larger than the Great Recession.
  6. Global coordination is also essential. While Trump was busy putting selective travel restrictions in place that were both too late and too insignificant, China showed real leadership on the global stage and sent aid to Italy, helping the beleaguered nation. Meanwhile, America's global standing continues to diminish.
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Mar 13, 2020

Nice anti-Trump post. I'm truly impressed with your ability to turn a pandemic into an opportunity to bullet point-by-bullet point slam the President. Well done.

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Most Helpful
Mar 13, 2020
m8:

Nice anti-Trump post. I'm truly impressed with your ability to turn a pandemic into an opportunity to bullet point-by-bullet point slam the President. Well done.

I welcome the monkey shit from people too partisan to realize the comical levels of incompetence at the reigns of the country right now in a true global crisis. It doesn't change the reality or truthfulness of anything I posted.

Key positions were eliminated. Funding was cut dramatically. Programs were discontinued. There are still nowhere near enough tests and the virus is running unchecked throughout our country. Messaging from the White House has been completely disjointed and confusing.

The funny thing about a pandemic is that you can't fight scientific reality with disinformation or propaganda.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Mar 13, 2020

dude your posts are the most trash on this site. You have TDS - SEEK HELP

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Funniest
Mar 13, 2020

wrong

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Mar 13, 2020

while you are absolutely correct..Trump is a moron...but that's besides the point.

This reminds me of a famous quote from Warren Buffet.

Buffet:

"Only invest in a business that can survive and thrive, even when run by an idiot..because someday, they will be"

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Mar 16, 2020

Even though I'm no democrat this guy is absolutely right.

Mar 13, 2020

I think there's really 3 schools of thoughts on this pandemic:

  1. This is more serious than we all think, 2008 will look like a joke, and millions of Americans will die in the coming months.
  2. This is serious and we can see a market correction, many deaths and infected, but it'll recover in the coming months.
  3. This is no big deal, a hoax, nothing to worry about, liberal media spreading lies.

I'm in camp 2, but I think camp 1 is not outside the realm of possibility. I think Trump's inaction and horrible response could be the reason we could switch from 2 (bad but will get better shortly) to 1 (all bets are off).

Not declaring a national emergency is a mistake. We will see how it plays out. If this all passes, maybe I was too fearful and overreacting to how bad it is. If it doesn't though, the guy who cut funding and waited too long is to blame for a lot of the problems.

Everyone in law enforcement and military knows that inaction is an action, which likely leads to more deaths. Maybe I'm wrong (I really hope I am). I would like for Trump to step up and to actually believe he can handle the situation. As of today, 3/13/20, I'm not seeing that.

Edit: I'll be the first to say I'm wrong when I'm wrong too. Truth is, we just don't know right now.

"The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly salary." - Nassim Taleb

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Mar 13, 2020
m8:

Nice anti-Trump post. I'm truly impressed with your ability to turn a pandemic into an opportunity to bullet point-by-bullet point slam the President. Well done.

Lol - Trump put out a tweet this morning attempting to blame Obama.

I find it telling that you made no attempt to refute @CRE" assertions. Rather, you're crying about "playing politics" when that's exactly what Trump is doing right now. He doesn't want Americans tested - that's clear. Doing so would show the extent of the virus. His administration has asked that meetings between top health officials be classified as confidential, I wonder why? Almost every action he's taken in the past few weeks has been to protect his political standing. Newsflash, the guy you support doesn't actually give a fuck about the American people. Trump cares about Trump - this has always been the case and will continue to be the case.

If you can't admit that his response to this has been wholly inadequate then politics really has become religion. De-funding something like the CDC when you're cutting taxes and blowing holes into the deficit is incompetence. All while begging to fund a border wall and a space force.

It is what it is though, don't really expect hardcore Trump supporters to be rational. Look at the man they put in office, their temperament is often a reflection of him.

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  • VP in IB - Gen
Mar 14, 2020

In case you didn't know, fucking China caused this fucking mess. Just like they did with SARS and MERS.

Why are people so butt hurt about travel restrictions? I haven't heard anyone say shit about banning large public gathering.

The least China can do is give aid to other nations. One of the things China is a leader in is eating fucked up shit!

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Mar 14, 2020

Stopped reading your drivel after your flat out FALSE CDC statement. Just google it and stop acting like a moron. It's ridiculous when you cant even get the most basic facts correct, yet you accuse others of being incompetent.

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  • Prospect in Other
Mar 17, 2020

Hey, just fact checked. Seems you're right, CDC funding has been about the same since Obama era.

Source: https://www.cato.org/blog/coronavirus-nih/cdc-funding
That aside, it doesn't excuse President Trump's actions or incompetence in the matter. If he's willingly spreading misinformation by prioritizing his own preservation over societal well-being, then that in itself would be a reason to never elect him in the first place. I'll admit when I'm wrong, and have done so in assuming that Trump had cut the CDC funding, but the vast majority of CRE's statements hold true.

  • Associate 1 in PE - Growth
Mar 15, 2020

everything makes sense until you mentioned China shooting leadership. nothing screams bs when ministry of foreign affairs starts tweeting conspiracy that US spread the virus.

Mar 17, 2020

No idea why you got 20 MS instead of 54+ bananas... Everything is spot on.

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Mar 17, 2020
Heartcore:

No idea why you got 20 MS instead of 54+ bananas... Everything is spot on.

I dared to criticize dear leader.

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Mar 13, 2020

You're right. Every single disease in the history of the world has indeed come from the Chinese. You've cracked the code. Great fucking work anon. Keep it up.

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Mar 13, 2020

Your racism adds zero value, as I'm sure you do at your internship.

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Mar 13, 2020

You clearly haven't heard or MERS or Ebola, have you?

  • VP in IB - Gen
Mar 14, 2020

But you've heard of Coronavirus (COVID-19), swine flu, and SARS, right?

Fuck you.

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Mar 13, 2020

@earthwalker7" great post, just a little point to pick about the science behind the Zoonotic origin. I agree that the food system needs an overhaul, but mainly for other reasons. SARS and COVID-19 came from the very localised and cultural practice of eating wild/endangered animals in wet markets in China. This is something that China responded to after SARS by temporarily banning the commercial use/killing of these animals. After SARS died off, the law came back. The hope is that this law will stay permanent for the post-COVID-19 world.

MERS came from camels mainly used for trade and non-consumption uses. Swine and Avian flu did come from animals for widespread consumption but those had much better control that COVID-19 and were less fatal than the others mentioned. The swine flu itself had over 6M global cases with less than 20K deaths. It was essentially a slightly more aggressive version of the seasonal flu. COVID-19 is a whole other beast. Most of the really messed up viruses (you're forgetting Ebola from your list) come from totally separate ecosystems where we generally have limited long-term or consistent interaction with regards to food consumption. The "wild" also has "wild" diseases.

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Mar 14, 2020

+SB for the insights and nuance added to the discussion.

Yes certainly it's a fact that adding wild animals to the menu brought China into exposure with additional diseases. And there's suspicion that both HIV and Ebola were due to exposure to monkey meat in Africa, so China is not alone in being exposed to new diseases due to dietary choice.

However more 'standard' animals like pigs, chickens, ducks and cows are also highly subject to disease. Swine flu, avian flu, etc. So it's not enough to say "don't eat monkeys and pangolins" when we're still getting epidemics from pigs and cows. We need to distance ourselves from animals because 1) raising, antibioticizing, and eating them exposes us to diseases, and 2) we have so many viable, safer, and more sustainable alternatives.

We are taking far too much risk eating animals, for far too little gain, with plenty of better alternatives. Hence I say the system is broken and needs to be re-designed asap with better dietary choices.

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Mar 14, 2020

Agreed, there needs to be more control and perhaps smaller scale production so you don't need to stuff them with antibiotics. Meat should become a occasionally used semi-luxury product. And, we must not forget that you can get nasty viral or bacteria infections from plant-based food too such as the mycotoxins come from nuts, plants and grains. But these are simply bad luck and do not spread as rapidly and intensely as zoonotic viruses

Mar 14, 2020

Heres a way how - if we are all to agree in being part of a global community countries like China are going to have to do away permanantly with ancient mystical practices of eating 'exotic' meats such as cats, rats, dogs, snakes, mice etc. I additionally include traditional Chinese medicine Dr quacks, who medical scientists have long been in opposition to, that tout unregulated herbs and mystic potions that have been known to in fact cause damage.

Apart from public health reasons, a cultural shift in China is needed for ethical & environmental reasons. Again I draw reference to mystical Chinese eating practices, this time of eating Shark Fin soup and there is a brilliant documentary by Gordon Ramsey on this.

I am not being racist or xenophobic by singling out China. Ebola for eg was a result of traditional cultural burials in Sierra Leone. Pig meat, carrion and animal blood wer prohibited in Abrahamic religions because of the high risk of bacterial infection at that time

There is however something really shockin about the arrogance and indifference China & the Chinese have consistently displayed by continuing to engage in these frankly disgusting practices that have no place in the 21st century.

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Mar 14, 2020

I agree, but there's a certain degree of hypocrisy in "China needs to do away with their risky practices, while we keep our own risky practices strong". China being told be Western nations to abandon their ways of doing things and adopt Western ways is going to land pretty flat. As a species we need to make certain decisions for a better collective future, but we just can't get ourselves geared up to do so.

So what exactly will you tell China? "Don't eat exotics, but do eat pigs and chickens like us?" When so many diseases have come from pigs and chickens, that makes little sense.

"Your dead disease-carrying animals are dirty. Eat our version of dead and diseased animals, which also get you sick, but it's our Western flavor of it."

Deeply hypocritical. And the West barely has any room to preach now, since China handled the epidemic shit well, and the West is a burning dumpsterfire of complaisance and ostrich-tactics.

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Mar 14, 2020

Im not convinced it as an East/West issue, rather a Global Community issue of public health. If the Chinese give each other red envelopes & laughing buddhas or eat with chopsticks that is none of my business. But I strongly feel there is an accountability amiss here - SARS Bird Flu now Coronavirus ..what's next? Its not a case of our animals are better than yours, there was cross contamination in these 3 pandemics. In December 2019, Chinese authorities notified the World Health Organisation of an outbreak of viral pneumonia in Wuhan City. Coronaviruses have the ability to jump from one species to another. the novel coronavirus originated in bats. It is possible that another species served as an intermediate host. Because wildlife/wet markets put people and live and dead animals in close contact, it makes it more likely the virus could jump between species. It is fucking unhygienic.

Its also of note tha China and its emphasis on ancient cultural mysticism plays a significant role in wildlife poaching too, though of course we know as rational, intelligent humans there is no magical power in a tigers tooth or indeed albino African children - with respect, I dont see it as a case of 'whitey trying to civilise savages' in this context. .

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  • VP in IB - Gen
Mar 14, 2020

How many accidental pandemics has the US started?

China waited 2, TWO fucking weeks before notifying the world of their fuck up. Of course they want this shit to end quickly because their economy is in trouble.

And you can't believe a goddamn word that China says.

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Mar 16, 2020
earthwalker7:

I agree, but there's a certain degree of hypocrisy in "China needs to do away with their risky practices, while we keep our own risky practices strong". China being told be Western nations to abandon their ways of doing things and adopt Western ways is going to land pretty flat. As a species we need to make certain decisions for a better collective future, but we just can't get ourselves geared up to do so.

So what exactly will you tell China? "Don't eat exotics, but do eat pigs and chickens like us?" When so many diseases have come from pigs and chickens, that makes little sense.

"Your dead disease-carrying animals are dirty. Eat our version of dead and diseased animals, which also get you sick, but it's our Western flavor of it."

Deeply hypocritical. And the West barely has any room to preach now, since China handled the epidemic shit well, and the West is a burning dumpsterfire of complaisance and ostrich-tactics.

Most Chinese also appear to detest these 'eating weird animal' practices, so it's not entirely 'in their culture' as you state. It's not like all Chinese do so. The critics within China are as big or bigger than from the outside.

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Mar 14, 2020

Me for the past 2 months: "Asia is doing a pretty decent job locking down their epidemic, but the rest of the world isn't prepared for what's coming."

ROW: "It's a China problem, not ours."

As if viruses all carry expired passports. The ROW had a 2 month head start and largely ignored the problem. China, HK, Singapore, Korea all took this virus pretty seriously, and managed the crisis. I can tell you that China and HK are back to business. I've got a half dozen project proposals from HK. Work has resumed, albeit with appropriate safeguards and quarantines. 2 months in and the West finally is starting to wake up to this being a crisis that needs attention.

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Mar 14, 2020

The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity, the thread.

Proposition n.1 (the OP):
-radically alter human diets that worked for millennia without addressing the single issue that's causing the current problem (assuming that's true, we aren't even 100% sure about the origins of coronavirus); impose severe, completely unnecessary restriction to personal liberties when it comes to food choice; drastically reduce everyone's standard of living (because your proposal is unaffortable for most); on top of everything you aren't even sure that your solution won't actually present large problems later on because you present things that have been around for less than 5 years as new obligatory diet instead of, and I can't emphasise enough, something that worked for humanity since the very beginning.

This is a clear demarcation where one should leave the debate. When the proposal is: ''let's stop doing something that worked since forever and let's replace it with something that's used by a tiny irrelevant group with no worthwhile achievement whatsoever'' then the answer is and pardon my roughness: ''How about you go fuck yourself?''

-proposal n.2: (CRE):
I'm skipping the anti-Trump rant because I have no interest nor patience for that.
''Let's do like -insert random country with completely different culture, size, system, geography etc''.
You won't. The bigger your organization, the harder it is to replicate something that worked large scale elsewhere. It'd be a great achievement if some of the US states individually managed to replicate S.Korea or whatever, but given the openness with the other states, it's virtually impossible.

''Muh global coordination''. So let me guess this straight: a highly centralized, politically unaccountable system is where the problem originates and because of its unwillingness to admit the problem and its falsified data, it spreads worldwide and you want... more of that?
Because if the Chinese govt is utter garbage and the main culprit for this, it's not like the WHO did any better. Their first response was to ''safeguard global trade and mobility'' and that's with the limited reach they have. It took them months to declare it a pandemic. Nice example of the worthlessness of global coordination.
The main problem with it is that if your global governors are stupid and as it turns out, they are, then everyone is fucked.

-General anti-racism virtue signaling.
Let's start with the basics again: China has a majestic civilization with few equals. Under cultural terms, India, Iran and only a few nations in Europe can say the same. You'll obviously notice the US is not in the list (because it's young!). Anyone collectively blaming the Chinese should be laughed at.
That being said pointing out that some eating habits of rural China might not be healthy is not racism. Otherwise you end up like Italy. Italy happens to have a government of stupid (liberal) people at the moment. A month and half ago, their initial response to the crisis was:
-the pro-EU President Mattarella visiting a school with high Chinese presence in Rome to virtue signal his anti-racism
-the ''Hug a Chinese'' initiative
-general complaints that Chinese restaurants were empty

See how well that ended.

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Mar 14, 2020

Pretty sure when you resort to ad-hominem attacks, you lose. But I'll respond anyway.

Your statement: humans have been eating this way for millenia.
Fact: meat was generally consumed as a very small part of human diet until recenty. Animal agriculture at scale and the introduction of antibiotics are a relatively new phenomenon.

Your statement: OP calls for radical change to long-standing human diet.
Fact: OP calls for a return to more traditional ways of eating, and making intelligent choices in our food system.

Your statement: We don't know where COVID-19 started.
Fact: While we've not identified the precise source, there are several sources that have been put forward by epidemiologists as highly likely and all of them are animal based. We do know the virus started in Wuhan, and likely in the wet markets. We do know it is animal in origin. Epidemiologists believe it may be pangolin in origin. But we DO know that every recent epidemic has a zoonotic root: SARS, MERS, etc.

Your statement: eating plants is unaffordable for most.
Fact: meat is far more expensive than staple plant-foods. Have you priced rice, beans, potatoes and broccoli lately?

I posted an op ed and an abstract from Royal society above. Did you read them, or just decide to vomit opinions and ad-hominem attacks first, before reading?

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Mar 14, 2020
earthwalker7:

Pretty sure when you resort to ad-hominem attacks, you lose. But I'll respond anyway.

I'll concede I was unnecessarily rude.

earthwalker7:

Your statement: humans have been eating this way for millenia.
Fact: meat was generally consumed as a very small part of human diet until recenty. Animal agriculture at scale and the introduction of antibiotics are a relatively new phenomenon.

Here only the last part (antibiotics) is true. The rest needs at best to be better defined (what do you mean by ''recently''?) Human diet has been omnivore since forever, that's not recent.

earthwalker7:

Your statement: OP calls for radical change to long-standing human diet.
Fact: OP calls for a return to more traditional ways of eating, and making intelligent choices in our food system.

Which never existed outside vegan historical revisionism. This is exactly why I get aggressive.

earthwalker7:

Your statement: We don't know where COVID-19 started.
Fact: While we've not identified the precise source, there are several sources that have been put forward by epidemiologists as highly likely and all of them are animal based. We do know the virus started in Wuhan, and likely in the wet markets. We do know it is animal in origin. Epidemiologists believe it may be pangolin in origin. But we DO know that every recent epidemic has a zoonotic root: SARS, MERS, etc.

Which... makes my statement correct.

earthwalker7:

Your statement: eating plants is unaffordable for most.
Fact: meat is far more expensive than staple plant-foods. Have you priced rice, beans, potatoes and broccoli lately?

I'm actually allergic to half of the veggies out there due to an extreme allergy to graminae. You can look that up. As for the rest, vegan diet is far more expensive than a normal mixed diet.

earthwalker7:

I posted an op ed and an abstract from Royal society above. Did you read them, or just decide to vomit opinions and ad-hominem attacks first, before reading?

Because your proposal is totalitarian veganism, which must be rejected in full force. I'm not impressed by sophistry, I go straight to the point. What exactly are you proposing? Massive restriction to personal dietary habits? Then the answer is no. Never. You are free to do as you please for yourself. You are free to promote your lifestyle to others. Your freedoms ends where mine begin. You are not free to promote sweeping regulations to restrict mine liberties.

Mar 14, 2020

@earthwalker7" responded to your on-topic nonsense, but let me address the rest.

neink:

proposal n.2: (CRE): I'm skipping the anti-Trump rant because I have no interest nor patience for that.

More specifically, you don't have a response to it, because nothing I wrote is factually inaccurate. A list of specific strategic and policy failures is not a "rant" simply because you don't appreciate being confronted with the reality outside of your media bubble.

neink:

''Muh global coordination''. So let me guess this straight: a highly centralized, politically unaccountable system is where the problem originates and because of its unwillingness to admit the problem and its falsified data, it spreads worldwide and you want... more of that?
Because if the Chinese govt is utter garbage and the main culprit for this, it's not like the WHO did any better. Their first response was to ''safeguard global trade and mobility'' and that's with the limited reach they have. It took them months to declare it a pandemic. Nice example of the worthlessness of global coordination.

The WHO has been leading an intelligent, science-based response to this from the beginning. Yes, the Chinese government's initial response was predictably trash, but that only reinforces the need for a coordinated global response, not some sign that globalism or global coordination is "worthless." This pandemic has shown multiple times now the failures that result from a lack of coordination, whether it's China or America.

neink:

General anti-racism virtue signaling.

It is always telling when certain people take arguments to not be racist as a personal affront or claim that other people arguing against racism is "virtue signalling" and not simply "being a good person and expressing a good opinion or doing a good deed." Visiting a school of kids is not "virtue signalling" it is showing solidarity with an aggrieved population.

Likewise, pointing out that some eating habits of rural China may lead to increased likeliness of pandemics is not racist, but perhaps predictably, no one is calling it that. Trump calling this a "foreign virus" is racist, however, because a virus does not have a race-based agenda. All viruses are foreign. Morons thinking you can get this from eating Chinese food? Racist. People looking sideways at every Asian on the street? Racist.

Calling everyone in the thread stupid and using "liberal" as a synonym for stupidity? Not racist, but still ignorant.

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  • Intern in PropTrad
Mar 14, 2020

WARNING DISTRESSING CONTENT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sczeriPCgho

Have a look and make your own mind up folks. There are markets like this all over Asia.
You can literally see the virus everywhere
I am seriously thinking of becoming vegetarian now

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Mar 19, 2020

Literally what the fuck is wrong with these people...

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Mar 14, 2020

There is no way to stop another epidemic. We should all accept that.

What needs to be understood is that viruses cannot be trolled or negotiated with - the only answer to deadly outbreaks of disease that can happen anywhere and anytime and spread like wildfire is to make sure the people who are going to be responsible for responding are well prepared and well equipped. That means funding and giving political cover to those people to make unpopular statements and decrees. For example (and to give an example of a notable liberal failing on this and not just the incompetent senile bigot-in-chief), Bill de Blasio has done an atrocious job at forwarding all his policy goals in NYC, because he has Mr Trump's aversion to taking any form of responsibility for bad news. This means lower level bureaucrats don't push projects, don't stick their necks out, just do the bare minimum because the bare minimum won't get them in trouble. If we want talented and ambitious people to come work for the government (and therefore, the people), we need to treat those positions the same as we would a private sector job, where there is an assumption (usually) that a boss will come to bat for a subordinate who does their job. If we do that, then government won't be as slow and inefficient. When you force out everyone but the lowest common denominator, you get a shit organization. That's not unique to bureaucracy, that's life

That has been the complaint about the current US response; no one blames Mr Trump for the virus. But The incompetence in dealing with it is a direct result of a mindset that says that central authority is always bad and business/the private sector can do anything government can do, better and more efficiently.

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Mar 15, 2020

I agree. I think it's not a liberal or conservative thing. When epidemics arise one has to be somewhat authoritarian and slam borders shut and mobilize for a crisis. As someone living in Asia, I appreciate how Singapore, Taiwan, and eventually China dealt with it. Drawbridges up, full quarantine.

Mar 14, 2020

Not trying to be an asshole, but this would be a perfect opportunity as an excuse to start further economic or actual warfare against Eastern factions. Expect Chinese - US tensions to ramp up.

Mar 16, 2020

Gotta admit the timing is interesting. Trade war had China on the brink of having their over levered bullshit economy exposed, then this happens.

Mar 16, 2020

Wanna expand your thoughts? Could be conspiracy but interested in what more you have to say about the topic

Mar 16, 2020
Dr. Rahma Dikhinmahas:

Gotta admit the timing is interesting. Trade war had China on the brink of having their over levered bullshit economy exposed, then this happens.

Can't have a good politics thread without a baseless conspiracy theory!

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Mar 15, 2020

To summarize the thread:

1) Libs yet again propose something that requires everyone to conform to their personal preferences, so that the former can claim they are saving the world and feel good about themselves.
2) The usual tomato sauce of ''science-based'' and historical revisionism. FYI from the very beginning communism claimed to be scientifically justified (Proudhon - scientific socialism), this was later extended to Marxism. Anyone who's older than 30 in Eastern Europe has quite the experience with this kind of discourse.
3) Even more repulsive, given that normally people aren't going to give up to totalitarian veganism, now the idea is to use a quite unrelated pandemic to push forward with centralization and control over people's lives.
4) Anti-Trump derangement syndrome.
5) Zero addressing of the actual roots of the problem (Chinese govt, global mobility).
6) Defense of utterly idiotic, and for once, scientifically unjustifiable, virtue signaling (Hug a Chinese), since social distancing is now a requirement.

These people are going to kill us all. It's like watching Chernobyl unfolding. I just wish we could just split countries. You ban meat and whatever the fuck you want, while keeping global mobility with China. We do the exact opposite. Let's see who makes it to the end of the century.

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Mar 15, 2020

You're conflating a lot of issues, and throwing out idiotic ideas that no one suggested. Responding would be like debating a hysterical person. Not worth the effort, since it's like debating a drug addict.

1) no one said "hug a Chinese". But there were some stupidly racist comments put down. If you don't know the difference, then I pity you.

2) global mobility - zero person spoke out in favor of mobility in the face of an epidemic. Trump was the one who was super slow to act, and took 2 months to put in place a travel ban. China put in place a quarantine pretty quickly.

3) Blaming Trump - Trump is incompetent. It's what happens when you put a lifelong con-artist, who has no intellectual curiosity, in a position of real responsibility where he just can't bullshit talk his way thru real governance problems. Here's some choice quotes from the Trump mis-management slow-moving trainwreck. It starts with active Trump denial, months of him saying it's no big deal, then all of a sudden saying "It's a huge emergency, but I take no responsibility. US had 2 months advanced warning since the virus began, and did zero. Call a spade a spade.

January 22: "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. It's going to be just fine."

February 2: "We pretty much shut it down coming in from China."

February 24: "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA... Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"

February 25: "CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus."

February 25: "I think that's a problem that's going to go away... They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we're very close to a vaccine."

February 26: "The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero."

February 26: "We're going very substantially down, not up."

February 27: "One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear."

February 28: "We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical."

March 2: "You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?"

March 2: "A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they're happening very rapidly."

March 4: "If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work -- some of them go to work, but they get better."

March 5: "I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work."

March 5: "The United States... has, as of now, only 129 cases... and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!"

March 6: "I think we're doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down... a tremendous job at keeping it down."

March 6: "Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They're there. And the tests are beautiful.... the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good."

March 6: "I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it... Every one of these doctors said, 'How do you know so much about this?' Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president."

March 6: "I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault."

March 8: "We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus."

March 9: "This blindsided the world."

March 9: "The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant."

March 10: "It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away."

March 13: National Emergency Declaration. "I take no responsibility."

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Mar 15, 2020

1) ''Hug a Chinese'' was an initiative by the left in Italy a month and half ago to fight, and I quote, ''the only real viral threat and that is racism''.
2) It needs to go permanently. Semi-global mobility was the vehicle for this, mass flows of people carry too large fat tail risks.
3) But Trump... what exactly? Which country is doing so much better than the US? Italy has a center-left government of ''experts'', see how well it's going. Spain? Also leftwing, well on its way to be like Italy. France? The brilliant Macron, also deteriorating quickly. Germany? Merkel already said the expectations is that 60-70% of Germans will be infected. Let's leave Europe. Australia? They had a nice spike recently as well.

Who's doing well in the end? Russia. You can go ahead and praise Vlad Vlad if you want.

Mar 15, 2020
neink:

To summarize the thread:

Oh good lord

neink:

1) Libs yet again propose something that requires everyone to conform to their personal preferences, so that the former can claim they are saving the world and feel good about themselves.

The mountain of stereotypes and assumptions this nonsense is based off of reaches the heavens. I'm 6' 225lbs. Do you seriously think my preference is eating less meat? I know to you, "libs" are some San Francisco or Brooklyn caricature of a person, but that's comically far from reality.

neink:

2) The usual tomato sauce of ''science-based'' and historical revisionism. FYI from the very beginning communism claimed to be scientifically justified (Proudhon - scientific socialism), this was later extended to Marxism. Anyone who's older than 30 in Eastern Europe has quite the experience with this kind of discourse.

Ah yes, the classic "communism happened so science isn't real" argument. What in the world?

neink:

3) Even more repulsive, given that normally people aren't going to give up to totalitarian veganism, now the idea is to use a quite unrelated pandemic to push forward with centralization and control over people's lives.

"Totalitarian veganism" lol. The thread started with the idea of human beings as a specifies needing to change their dietary approach, not totalitarian vegans forcing you to eat soy at gunpoint.

neink:

4) Anti-Trump derangement syndrome.

Which:

  1. Usually correlates with someone telling the truth about some nonsense Trump did or said
  2. Isn't an actual thing no matter how many times right wing media shouts about "TDS!!!11"
neink:

5) Zero addressing of the actual roots of the problem (Chinese govt, global mobility).

Yes, I'm sure animals aren't the root of this animal-borne virus. Globalism is.

neink:

6) Defense of utterly idiotic, and for once, scientifically unjustifiable, virtue signaling (Hug a Chinese), since social distancing is now a requirement.

These people are going to kill us all. It's like watching Chernobyl unfolding. I just wish we could just split countries. You ban meat and whatever the fuck you want, while keeping global mobility with China. We do the exact opposite. Let's see who makes it to the end of the century. [/quote]

Veganism, globalism, and "virtue signaling." The next cause of this will be "PC culture."

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Mar 15, 2020

The worst ''caricature'' of liberals I could come up to apparently was not bad enough.

Earthwalker legitimately went as far as saying that he's free to do as he pleases but I am not because my liberties, according to him, hurt the environment and future generations. Under this moral fanaticism, he gets to decide, always, using the same exact argument.

This thread is utterly terrifying.

edit: humanity wins

Humanity wins once again.

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Mar 15, 2020

It's so bizarre seeing people blame Trump for literally every bad thing that happens. I haven't used the term "trump derangement syndrome" before but people are literally succumbing to hysteria here, and are approaching the level of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

You all realize that the more this spreads around the world the less you can blame Trump right?

Italy is on complete lockdown with 300+ deaths today alone. Spain had 100 or so deaths today as well. The Canadian prime minster was directly exposed to the disease (his wife is positive) and has to self quarantine. Is this the fault of Donald Trump as well?

Even in the US, there are things happening or not happening that have nothing to do with Trump. In NYC, De Blasio has yet to close schools (though will probably this week), despite many states already doing so nationwide. Several places haven't enforced restrictions on bars / restaurants yet - nyc and chicago bars were packed with St. Patrick's day celebrations this weekend.

The reality is the political capital isn't there to do take drastic measures in a country like the US until we are already close to or in a crisis. For instance, Trump cutoff travel from China in late Jan and was IMMEDIATELY called racist by Chuck Schumer. Are we actually supposed to believe that US liberals wouldn't have immediately accused Trump of being a dictator had he taken drastic steps to reduce civil liberties before the virus really took off here? Of course not; had Trump done this there would have been protests and more hysteria from the left.

So let's keep things in perspective. We have 62 dead in the US as of today, and the disease has been here for nearly two full months. This number is likely to grow significantly, but it looks like the country may have reacted in time, with the states of emergencies, closures, and other measures that were implemented over the last few days.

Let's hope our lower population density, younger average age, transportation habits, and warm weather are enough to "flatten the curve" more than Italy has so far.

Array

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Mar 15, 2020

This is so spot on. Wish I could give you 1000 SBs. The level of inane drivel coming from a few posters on this site recently has been spectacular.

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Mar 15, 2020
Pmc2ghy:

This is so spot on. Wish I could give you 1000 SBs. The level of inane drivel coming from a few posters on this site recently has been spectacular.

"That person doesn't agree with me politically so I'm going to counter their points with name calling!"

Way to own the libs, kid.

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Mar 15, 2020

No one is blaming Trump for "literally every bad thing that happens." You are either purposefully misrepresenting the arguments in this thread or bringing in irrelevant things you've observed elsewhere. Trump didn't cause Covid-19 nor is he responsible for its spread internationally. Even with a highly effective American president in office, this virus would have hit our shores.

What Trump deserves criticism for is decisions he or his administration made prior to this pandemic that made it harder to combat and his actions and statements since that have confused both people and markets and have contributed to the worsening of the problem. Because of this, I laid out six factual strategy or policy failures of the Trump administration as well as what the correct path in those specific situations was. It wasn't "drivel." No one has yet to counter them, only throw monkey shit and rant and rave in response. Since then, Trump has made more strategic errors and outright false statements that soon have to be corrected by his staff. This is all public record.

I am not "deranged" or "hysteric" for criticizing the administration's response to this crisis. Neither are the vast amount of people who clearly agree with the points I brought up. It is not hysterical to logically lay out clear mistakes in this instance and point out how those mistakes could have been better handled. It is not deranged to criticize the leader of your country either - in fact, it's incredibly American to do so, and claiming it is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre misses the mark rather dramatically.

The more this virus spreads around the world, it will not be more Trump's fault, but the more his response within our own country comes up short - like how Google doesn't actually have a nation-wide website, or like how he just said an hour ago that young people shouldn't worry and should go about their lives even though young people can be symptomless carriers, or how we aren't shutting everything down even though our infection trajectory mirrors Italy's almost exactly - then Trump will continue to be blamed, and rightfully so.

Continuously blaming him for a continuously poor response is not "blaming everything on Trump," "TDS," or a sign that I have a "sad and pathetic life" as some anonymous intern proclaimed. Likewise, pointing out the failures of others, such as De Blasio, also does not absolve Trump of his responsibility, which he specifically said he takes none of.

The political capital is most definitely there to shut down the country and governors, both on the right and the left, are starting to lead the way. The governor of Ohio just shut down all restaurants and bars in the state. Republican and Democrats in governors mansions, in the House, and in the Senate, from Gavin Newsom to Ted Cruz, have made intelligent statements and have made intelligent responses to the crisis. Even people in Trump's administration, such as Mnuchin and various medical professionals, have worked out deals and made the right call. Meanwhile you have Devin Nunes making profoundly moronic proclamations to Fox News, telling all its elderly listeners to go out to their "local pub" even while experts are urging them to stay home, so the failure of leadership also isn't all on Trump.

I have the same hope as you that we can flatten the curve, but Trump deserves all the criticism he can get for not helping flatten it sooner. The pictures and videos of packed bars for St. Patty's Day and people packing into O'Hare Airport like sardines are disheartening, to say the least. This is going to get much worse before it gets better and it didn't have to be like this.

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Mar 15, 2020

Go find a wife and have some kids dude. You spend way too much time on here trying to be king of the 19yos and obsessing over Trump, resorting to blatant false narratives while calling Trump a liar. I can't even imagine how meaningless your existence must be.

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Mar 15, 2020

What you don't realize, because you are hysterical as I previously mentioned, is that you spread falsehoods without even realizing it because your emotional reaction to Trump is so strong that it clouds your critical thinking skills.

You claimed Trump cut funding for the CDC by "80%" - this is not true. There was a proposed budget for 2021 hat has not passed yet (and obviously won't). But you seem to think this has already occurred, and you seem to think that these "cuts" have affected the situation. This is unequivocally not the case.

You claimed that Trump called the virus a "hoax" - again this is not true. He called the Democratic talking point that his response was insincere / not seriously enough as a "hoax". Again, he did not call the virus itself a hoax, just the claim against him as such.

You aren't even a liar here - you are just willfully misinformed, and spread falsehoods for political gain. This is absolutely a form of hysteria. If this were a non-political issue, and I were trying to explain to how a budget process works for a large corporation or something, you'd be like "ok that makes sense". But in your Trump-deranged thought process, you can't event take a moment to comprehend how the appropriations process works, and what budget proposals have actually gone into effect and which hasn't.

Honest question - aren't you somewhat embarrassed that someone has this much control over you?

Sources: Here's two fact check articles from the most left wing fact checker out there that can't even corroborate these two claims, rating them both "mixture", with the parts you claim to be true as "false":

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-cut-cdc-bu...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronaviru...

Array

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Mar 15, 2020

This whole "vegans are coming for our meat" trope is ridiculous. Name the last time a vegan slapped a chicken wing out of your hands?

Right now meat is heavily subsidized globally. That steak you're eating would cost a multiple of what it costs because of those subsidies.

As a contrary trend though multiple governments in Asia and Europe are considering ending those subsidies and putting in place a meat tax. This idea doesn't have wide traction (yet), but multiple countries are exploring it. The EU in particular has been giving a meat tax serious consideration. Wikipedia meat tax and see. Taxes on harmful behavior has been a common tool to reduce its frequency and push its reduction. Still a personal choice, but at least society should not be subsidizing that behavior. This is as much a governance, economics, and epidemiological issue as anything.

like I said I felt like floating an experimental thought balloon by the group. If one reads the medical literature on zoonotic epidemics and the impact that animal Ag has on climate , it's an interesting idea. I did promise y'all controversy not some softball stuff.

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Mar 16, 2020
earthwalker7:

This whole "vegans are coming for our meat" trope is ridiculous. Name the last time a vegan slapped a chicken wing out of your hands?

Right now meat is heavily subsidized globally. That steak you're eating would cost a multiple of what it costs because of those subsidies.

As a contrary trend though multiple governments in Asia and Europe are considering ending those subsidies and putting in place a meat tax. This idea doesn't have wide traction (yet), but multiple countries are exploring it. The EU in particular has been giving a meat tax serious consideration. Wikipedia meat tax and see. Taxes on harmful behavior has been a common tool to reduce its frequency and push its reduction. Still a personal choice, but at least society should not be subsidizing that behavior. This is as much a governance, economics, and epidemiological issue as anything.

like I said I felt like floating an experimental thought balloon by the group. If one reads the medical literature on zoonotic epidemics and the impact that animal Ag has on climate , it's an interesting idea. I did promise y'all controversy not some softball stuff.

Meat tax will end up the same way Macron's fuel tax ended: with a revolt bordering revolution and it'd be thoroughly deserved. Stop trying to control people's lives and leave them alone.

Mar 16, 2020

As much as i resent religion / the use of it in any ethical argument there is a reason why diseases like this never originate from anglo-saxon countries. China's leaders have decided that total control is way better than citizens having any free will and it shows in the way people behave and eat. These diseases will continue to happen because the Chinese decided long ago that political survival and dominance is greater than any ethical action they cant take. God doesn't stop bad people from doing bad things but it helps good people from allowing horrible shit to happen in a country. This fact is evident in all Western countries but obviously China only cares about the survival of the CCP.

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Mar 16, 2020

diseases like this never originate from anglo-saxon countries

Really?
How do your explain Mad Cow Disease?
My sister is still symptomatic.

Mar 16, 2020
dontbugme:

As much as i resent religion / the use of it in any ethical argument there is a reason why diseases like this never originate from anglo-saxon countries. China's leaders have decided that total control is way better than citizens having any free will and it shows in the way people behave and eat. These diseases will continue to happen because the Chinese decided long ago that political survival and dominance is greater than any ethical action they cant take. God doesn't stop bad people from doing bad things but it helps good people from allowing horrible shit to happen in a country. This fact is evident in all Western countries but obviously China only cares about the survival of the CCP.

This may be the worst post in this thread.

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Mar 16, 2020

How high were you when you posted this?

Mar 16, 2020

Just to throw this into the mix, what do you all think of our reliance on Chinese produced goods? Arguably because of this the economic hit in the US will be much worse. So much for all those "global interdependence helps all" economists....

Array

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Mar 16, 2020

Economists are mostly imbecilles and being dependent on pathological liar is even more retarded.

Mar 16, 2020

Hey man:
I actually decided to create a new thread here : https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/are-we-over... as I realized that my comment should be another discussion and not take over this thread.

Array

Mar 16, 2020

I think there's one particular animal that's especially problematic at least when it comes to respiratory diseases. Origin of SARS? bats MERS? bats COVID-19? bats. people just need to stay away from bats let alone eat them. and China needs to realize hat not all living species is edible lol. Also never liked batman

Mar 16, 2020
onceinRome12:

Also never liked batman

That's a hot take for sure.

Mar 16, 2020

He has all that money and instead of creating programs and institutions to help reduce crime and treat mental illness he instead cosplays as a bat and beats the stuffing out of them.

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Mar 16, 2020

not

would you rather be clever or intelligent?

Mar 16, 2020

Bruh, that Beyond Meat stuff is 100% gonna cause tons of cancers down the line. And I say that fully in favor of people reducing their meat consumption.

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Mar 18, 2020

Glad we're in agreement about reducing meat consumption.
There is nothing carcinogenic in Beyond Meat. It's certainly not health food - it's processed and has lots of salt, oil, etc., so it's a treat food. Just like a burger is. And Beyond Meat is a substitute for something we KNOW is unhealthy - meat. Meat is ranked as a type 2 and 3 carcinogen by the WHO. The good thing about Beyond is each new version is healthier than the last version. Meat on the other hand cannot improve with each generation, and is in fact getting less healthy, the more antibiotics and hormones we pump into it.

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Mar 18, 2020

All fair points. Seems like processed foods have systematically been underestimated for their carcinogens though. Way too early to say beyond meat is absolutely fine.

Mar 19, 2020
earthwalker7:

And Beyond Meat is a substitute for something we KNOW is unhealthy - meat.

Why isn't humanity exctinct then? Oh wait, because you just spout falsehood again. Excessive meat, just like many other excesses, can be unhealthy.

Key word being excessive, not meat.

Or, you know, not properly cooked. Once again, those being the keywords, just like everyhing else. You slap a carrot from the ground straight into your throat and you aren't going to feel well.

Mar 17, 2020

this thread has made me go vegetarian. good job folks

Mar 17, 2020

I hear ya. Chicken is too good, but I've given up on beef and pork. Fish is aight.

Mar 20, 2020

This thread summarized:

Then I came across Nicolas Veron (head of Brugeles, EU think thank) advocating for individual tracking chips to track the virus, following the Singapore model.

You put it together with the content of the thread and you get this:

Sooo, dear libs, can you please stop trying to build dystopias? K, thanks bye

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Mar 20, 2020

better to live in the dystopia conservatives created right?

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Mar 20, 2020

Meaning the society we had until now? Yeah I'd pick it.

I'm actually going to watch Demolition Man again to see how far we are pushing in that direction.
-gun banned? Check
-meat banned? Check, also meat eater used as an insult
-biometric tracking? Check

I don't remember what else was in the movie. The future sucks.

Mar 20, 2020
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Mar 23, 2020