I feel bad for "target" students
Simply put: Non-targets have a better story once they become successful.
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I don't feel bad for anybody once they become successful, target or non-target.
Simply put: Non-targets have a much lower chance of being "successful" (in your terms) than targets.
Besides, once you've "made it", no one really cares about your background as much anymore.
Anyone else notice the intangible value between a heart to heart with non-target prospective bankers and ones whom have been in the industry for a couple years? The guys we network with come out with us, have a great time and talk about how much they love to help out a fellow non-target. This does not exist in the "Target" world, where everything is handed on a silver platter.
That invaluable relationship between two non-targets and the willingness to help does not exist with targets. I await to see the day that a Harvard IB analyst goes out and slugs beers with some equally as privileged sophomore ivy leaguer. Sure they have alumni and connections, but everyone else at Harvard does the same shit there. I'll take my cold calling, guessing email addresses and having coffee with bankers over that anyday.
You are forgetting that some people work their asses off to get to a target school. Sure, many are privileged but some people legitimately earned a spot.
^ With the guidance of their parents. I don't care who you are, nobody knows shit about anything in Middle School. This is someone with a privileged background, and parents who are able to train your brain to be privileged enough at a young age to have foresight and maturity. The average human doesn't find this path until College already comes around, let alone early years in High School.
They are definitely intelligent, no doubting that. But like I stated in other posts, I think non-target kids who are willing to attempt to join a field that they know there are 30,000 or so better applicants than them, is bad ass. They are go-getting hungry mother fuckers who work harder than any kid at any target school, and will go the extra mile to beat them. Sure, the target kid could complete LBO's when they were 16, and probably took Linear Algebra as a freshman in high school, but who fucking cares. At the end of the day, the kid from a less-privileged background and a true disadvantage who worked 100x harder than some Harvard/Yale grad to get the same job, shows some fucking balls to me. I don't know about you.
To side with OP, it 100% makes a great story. Oh cool, you are a Harvard grad and work on Wall Street? Join the club... Way more of a wow-factor when a gunner from a no-name school has the same job and busted his ass while having a swell time in undergrad. That, is the definition of a true "Target" to me.
I'm generally on board with what you're saying, but once you've made it, who cares. A good story lasts for about 15 minutes. Then the work you do going forward speaks for itself.
Well lets try to forget what other people think of it. Internally, to myself, I would always know that I worked 100x harder than that Harvard guy over there to get the same job. To me, its a great story. And to me, you will always know how much more difficult it was to get to where you are then the path they took. Regardless of what others think, it is truly euphoric.
It boosts my ego and wakes me up in the morning.
Life is tough when you go to Yale, I agree.
Lol. Top colleges turn down valedictorians (ya know, the people that graduated at the TOP of their 200+ person classes) by the truck load and then go on to accept a quarter of the kids from their feeder high schools. Not to mention that if you're related to someone who has donated good money, you'd have a harder time building a case to NOT get in.
Dude you are literally proving my point.. I am sorry, but most ivy-leaguers are just privileged kids who happen to grow up in very wealthy families with good parental guidance. Not everyone has this. Sure, I bet Yale is fantastic.. But I don't care what you or anyone thinks. Most kids in Ivy League undergrad did not earn it the same way some non-target average-joe worked to get that BB IBD job. That's called working your fucking ass off ON YOUR OWN. Obviously, getting into a top MBA program at an ivy is a different story, considering you will be like 25 at that time. i.e. you wont have parents doing shit for you and paying/forcing you to go to the preppiest most expensive high school in your state.
I foresee a new trend: Non-targets in the industry like myself will never hire a target kid, just because the gunner at the bottom of the list will work 100x harder and do everything I fucking say without questioning shit.
The Ivy League you're describing existed in like 1960. Seriously, you're living in a cave if you really think this. Yes, there are privileged kids at ivies, but most are middle to upper-middle class kids who did very well in high school and kicked serious ass. It's why they're there. 70% of Harvard is from public schools, and i think around 75% get some form of financial aid.
ValueAdder, I think you're missing a lot of the big picture here.
I went to a target ivy. Most all of my friends from high school and even childhood ended up at targets and a lot of the guys I know from my fraternity and investment club ended up on the street. I now have friends literally everywhere, many of whom are 2-4 years older than I am and are now approaching the VP/Director level.
And remember, these are people I have known FOR YEARS and have ACTUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH (as opposed to ones that were just formed through career networking). We go out together all the time because these guys are my actual friends. If I am ever in a position where I want to move to another role or firm, I know I will have some options just on this fact alone.
Also, I think you're underestimating just how strong our alumni networks are. I have met tons of alums for coffee/lunch/drinks during recruiting, from analyst all the way up to the head of EMEA banking at a BB. I know how valuable this was for me and how much I appreciated it so you bet your ass that I return the favor to undergrads whenever I get the opportunity.
Does all of this mean that I had it easier breaking in than you did? Yeah, probably. But don't think for a second that I didn't work just as hard or harder to get the best offer that I possibly could.
I'm pretty sure that he's referring to the fact that you listed Yale as your school on your profile...
This topic should be closed down if it ever attacks target students.
Just an addendum: not all target students are pricks. There are some who are (see stories about target kids feeling like they deserve things/internships), but there are also many who are hardworking and humble.
I have nothing against targets - my brother went to a target school. I am just building upon a personal theory that one receives more recognition if they overcome adverse conditions.
Wow. This is one of the worst threads I have ever seen. There are plenty of kids at target schools who have a better story than non-target kids. In fact, have you ever heard of the homeless to harvard stories? How about the internationals who learned how to read and write in war refugee camps and then got to MIT and Princeton?
I hate to peg this on you but this is such a retarded frame of thinking that I would expect it from a non-target person.
There are also a ton of low life losers whose parents have money, they go to a non-target like UConn/Hofstra/Rutgers and then their parents contacts somehow get them a job. Man, that is a great fucking story...
If you think for one second that target kids don't hustle their asses of to get a job in IBD, you are sadly fucking mistaken. The competition is more fierce and every single notable alumnus is hit up by 30 kids trying to network so you can't even stand out that way. Not to mention that everyone has a 3.8+ has other internships, and is in the business fraternities.
I went to an ivy target and only 1 BB bank recruited for full time. So, yea we really had it on a silver platter this recruiting season. I had a 3.9, previous internships that were better than 99% of people, and was in numerous clubs and still got shafted for summer recruiting. I busted my ass to get my FT BB gig so please STFU with your retarded comments.
Simply put, you're probably at a non-target for a reason. There are definitely some kids who go to non-trgets that could have went to ivys or better schools but couldn't for whatever reason. And guess what, they are the ones who don't post on here because they already know what they have to do. They have the brain power to realize they are in a shitty situation and don't waste time making stupid threads like this. I have met some incredibly smart people from non-targets but that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of people there are there because they should be.
Stop making excuses and stop trying to alleviate your insecurities by putting down people whp probably worked harder than you from an earlier age.
His profile also lists him as 26 years old and an intern..
OP what world do you live in where ANYBODY gives a fuck how you got into IB?? Or even that your there at all?
Wait until you work for a couple of years and realize that 99% of people in your life don't care what you do, and they definitely don't think that your some wild success story because you didn't go to an ivy.
This thread is stupid. Stop complaining because you didn't get into a target school. I didn't get into a target school (full disclosure: didn't apply). I didn't bitch about it. There's plenty of opportunities available for you non-targets. No one is going to give you a cookie for your hard work.You guys have nothing, and I mean nothing on kids from low-income families who scrap by to get through college and whose dream come true is any career in finance. Have some humility for fuck's sake
P.S. And nobody gives a shit about your story either. When you inevitably flame out as a VP you become just another part in the machine. You become irrelevant. Most of you guys will never make it to the point where people admire you, respect you, and care about what your story is. Rude awakening I'm sure for the many of you here who do things just for the adulation of others
Will Hunting: Im not even going to respond anymore to this thread, as I didn't create it. Last thing I am going to say AGAIN.. I don't care who you are or where you went to school. You are going to tell me that you "hustled" in middle school and high school? Fuck off dude. Your parents were pushing you along the way and you know it. Im sure you had legacy ties there as well.
A non-target who didn't find their path until Freshman year or Sophomore year, and puts in 200% of the effort to catch up to some overly-privileged kid who put in 100% during high school. Yeah bro, he is totally that much more intelligent and better off... Your post is a classic example of an arrogant Ivy. Don't think for a second you are better than anyone else just because you started off on the right foot when you were 15 years old buddy.
add: And to the person that said I am underestimating ivy's connections... No not at all. That is EXACTLY what I am saying. You have it MADE. You're right, its all there for you. The connections, the unlimited network. That's great. But for us, we don't have that at all. And we hustle and bust our ass ourselves to get to where we are today. Just keep that in mind. OCR doesn't exist elsewhere.. You should keep in mind how lucky you were to get into a school like that in the first place. Not everyone dreams of Finance at an extremely young age.
This is a really dumb thread and reeks of insecurity. You are generalizing way too much here. Is it easier to get in from a "target" school, sure. Does that mean it's easy? Hell no.
I went to an "elite prep school" and while many of the kids were privileged, a significant portion of our class was also on financial aid...same with Williams. So what about that?
There are a lot of people at targets that don't have connections, didn't have the parents you're speaking about and still made it.
So please stop generalizing and trying to make it a war between "targets" and "non-targets" because you sound like an insecure douche.
Just get the damn job and then kick ass and nobody will give a shit if you went to Harvard or East Bumblefuck State.
And yes, I fucking hustled in high school doing an average of 6-7 hours of homework every night...and that wasn't my parents, that was my environment and being damn lucky/appreciative to be going to a great school.
WSO is all about helping people from everywhere learn how to land and succeed at a career in finance - we have hundreds of success stories from non-targets AND targets, and I think all of them are great.
While I'd normally say use whatever it takes to motivate yourself, I can guarantee that if you approach some "non-target" alumni and talk shit about "targets" non-stop, you'll put your foot in your mouth pretty fast and realize a lot of their friends and co-workers are from targets...
Most professionals are not immature enough to care and your insecurity will make you look pathetic. Have a sack and stop putting so much of your self-worth in where you went to school...it doesn't define who you are (I hope) - that goes for non-targets and targets alike.
hahahah this is the funniest comment ever. I'm not going to go into my whole story or even part of it but dude, i worked 2 jobs throughout H.S, and my parents made a combined income of less than 15k. So yea, a bunch of ties to ivys considering neither parent went to college or graduated high school.
you are clueless.
I thought Will Hunting was an orphan?
valueadder doesn't work on wall street i think thats pretty obvious
Patrick laying the smack down and confirming what I have said. Lets goooooooooo
This, sooooo much
well, 99.9% of the time, a company will take the target kid who employs the same hustle, intelligence, and go-getter attitude over the non-target one. It's simple risk management and pedigree.
It pretty much comes down to how similar you are to the interviewer (and team) in terms of fit
Key takeaway from this thread: Non-target and Target students can both have interesting stories.
I am a little biased towards non-target students (I'm one myself) as they usually have to work a lot harder than target students. But that doesn't mean target students don't have to work their ass off as well.
The rude awakening will be had for anybody that thinks people are going to admire them....not happening. Especially because they are an 'investment banking analyst'. LOL that anyone considers that 'making it'.
Do your job and stfu, nobody gives a shit about your background or your sob story. Boo fucking hoo, you went to a non-target, it's not like you're handicapped.
Also, anybody who thinks they will be doing the bulk of their recruiting from non-targets when they are in a position to hire is delusional. When you interview a lot of people, you will see that on average, the kids at the best schools are just better. It's sort of obvious. That's not to say there aren't good people at some schools outside the top 25, because there are, it's just more efficient recruiting at the top schools.
Lol this is hilarious. First he puts Harvard on his profile, now he jumps to Yale. ref: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/clarification-on-technical-questi…
Dude stop obsessing over the whole target/non-target thing, lying about your school and just focus on getting the job wtf
we're all gonna make it brah
u mirin?
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/thread
This thread
When I'm looking through profiles on the websites of top PE firms and I spot someone who ended up there with ZERO pedigree I'll admit to being impressed for about 10 seconds.
However, it's all about what have you done for me lately. No one gives a shit where you're from or what school you attended if you're a rainmaker. Besides, the way the system is set up now, it's so uber competitive that plenty of freakishly smart kids DON'T get into Ivies or Stanford/MIT or end up taking the money at non-targets. Those kids will still eat your lunch when recruiting time comes, so it's not as simple as saying non-target success story = harder working. Those kids likely would have done just as well had they gotten into (or chose to attend) targets.
Don't underestimate how important it is that you be liked. The ones willing and able to network effectively probably already come equipped w/ the personalities to make it in the industry (humble, likeable, smart, relatable, self aware, listens well, has integrity...). Sure they have a higher hurdle when it comes to getting looked at, but they can close after that coffee chat. I think it's much harder to be the guy that gets an entire team of analysts and VPs to WANT to see him again.
Nothing is better than when Patrick lays down the law.
Why don't I also cut off my right hand and celebrate every time I jerk off to orgasm?
Unless you were born to an unwed teenage mother in Angola, nobody gives a shit how hard you worked to get to the same place as the next guy...like UC Riverside or Bates College is a fucking sob story.
Get real
chill. wasn't arguing with you. your profile said you went to Yale. so I brought it up because I thought it was ironic you were complaining about busting ass at a non-target.
EDIT: Also, just in general, kids need to stop tying their self-worth/identity to what school they went to, target or non-target. Never assume anything's going to be handed to you, bust ass, "make it" by whatever your definition of that is, and be happy. conceptually, not that difficult
BTW my reaction is actually the opposite -- any time I see a kid from Buttfuck College I assume he is connected because how the hell else did he get an interview?
And passion for the job. But yes, these are def. the key factors of effective networking.
at the end of the day you'll still be an excel bitch for 80 hours a week so what difference does it make? the school you went to only matters for your 1st job, why would anyone care after that
U wot m8?
But lettuce be real tea, we all end up sleep deprived, excel sluts who slog through every day acting like we have it figured out. Truth is, we don't know shit and arguing over whose life is harder target vs. non-target is a huge waste of this life. If you define your success and ego over which school you went to, target or non-target, you live a pitiful life.
We're all gonna make it brah.
Positive Crew
repped for informative post
Why do non-targets necessarily have a "better" story? Oh great, you went to a bunch of frat parties and got drunk!
All points well taken. Non-targets point is more or less just that in a vacuum with no networking, targets have it easier. This is pretty much a fact. Target by definition means that when an industry/ firm/ etc has an opening, they go to XYZ schools to fill them... they TARGET those schools. Add onto that, that having prestige on your resume greatly increases your odds of being acknowledged through resume drops and HH searches, and it's pretty much not even a discussion. Again though, this is just referring to a "non-networking" scenario. The point is that applying to 10 great spots, getting 5 interviews, and closing on 2 offers, isn't exactly the same "feel good story" as being completely dead to rights and getting in through the backdoor by pounding the pavement, meeting people, self learning, etc. One last point that I feel like often gets lost in the noise. Perhaps a good amount of this frustration has to do with the current state of the industry as opposed to the whole "target vs. non-target" thing. I've spoken to numerous alumni (pre-07') from my non-target that have great jobs and are the first to admit that they wouldn't have gotten in nowadays. The timing of your entry is certainly not something to be overlooked, especially in such a cyclical industry. Anyway, I'm just glad to see that this thread didn't devolve into a flame war. Should probably just shut shit like this down in the future before it even has the opportunity.
U just mirin brah
^^ Zyzz was gonna be a financial analyst. Also went to a target and fathered aesthetics........fua
This is part of the problem. The notion that "school only matters for the first job, after that it's all on yourself" is for the most part flat out wrong. Your school determines your level of internships and network, your level of internships and network determine your first job, the experience from your first job will be the most important factor going forward for new jobs/grad school. Who is more likely to end up at a HF or PE, the connected Ivy kid with IB experience or the 4.0 non target who dominates their first position? One can be more intelligent/hardworking than the other but suffer from a severe disadvantage just because they didn't know how getting a career in finance worked when they were 17. Pretty silly concept, but someone deserves respect for leaping over those hurdles
Now I'm a firm believer that if you want something bad enough you can get it, and that most of the generalizations in this thread are silly, but non-targets face a tremendous uphill battle just to avoid having their resume be used to play trash can basketball.
I believe we are operating under the assumption that most non-targets here are motivated
If you went to a target I feel bad for u son...... I got 99 problems but my school ain't one.. HIT ME
99 is still a shit ton of problems brah
I literally lol'ed. I neither know nor care if you are in fact Brady, but I enjoy you just as much.
Thanks brah I would rep you if I had the chance (srs, dont know how to give bananas)
Take some delicious green misc-tical sprinkles, however.
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