I Hate [Interviewing] Millennials!

Shaun-Mullins's picture
Rank: Gorilla | banana points 748

I have been looking for an associate for a while now: smart, eager, ability to really dig into something. I don't care if you came from a lesser shop if you can prove you got the fight and drive.

So, I interviewed a dozen people and everyone has been pretty bad for the dumbest reasons. I am getting really tired of this. The problems I've seen include:

-anything on your resume is fair game for me to ask. if you're going to use fancy terms on your work experience, you better be ready to explain it. I asked for a bit more clarity on 1 guy's first bullet, and he crumbled. nice guy, but I can see through your BS resume in a flash.

-1 guy comes in, leans back in his chair all big-shot like, rocks back and forth in the chair, and talks as I owe him for the privelege of him coming to see me. (he's currently at a shop that's pretty sh***y) I threw him out fast.

-another guy during Q&A literally asks, "what's work/life balance like, I highly value that." why would you even say that? do you have any sense at all? Go teach kindergarten.

-The 1 hot girl that did well showed up 20 min late to her 1st and 2nd round without any real excuse. Leave yourself extra time jeez. maybe 1st time you got lost ok, but 2x? am I here to wait for you?

-1 guy is 30 minutes late, finally get an email from him: "sorry, my manager is out, I need to reschedule". really? I'm going to buy that? you couldn't have told me that 20-30 min BEFORE the scheduled interview he was out?

quality really downhill these days.. I don't remember the pool ever being this bad.

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Comments (93)

Mar 5, 2018

what type of role are you interviewing for?

just google it...you're welcome

    • 1
Mar 10, 2018

Associate.

    • 8
Mar 5, 2018

i meant...what kind of job. Investment Banking? Trading? PE/HedgeFund analyst? Accounting?

just google it...you're welcome

Mar 5, 2018

I think this was a fictional post. Guy is a troll

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Mar 6, 2018

The problem is that most millenials spend time on their phones, video games, watching Netflix, pornography, television, headphones (music from iPod), listening to loud electronic music, and do not spend any time thinking critically. Oh, and I forgot to mention that most use Cannabis which of course decreases motivation and the ability to critically think.

When and if the millenials stop using social media, Netflix, loud music etc. then they will have time to contemplate their existence and the existence of the marketplace and it's relativity to things like medicine, and physics and so forth.

Hire me please! I have a great deal of understanding of the market place!

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Mar 6, 2018

I know an online community for people like you

www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

    • 10
Mar 6, 2018

Are you being serious?

The OP is interviewing people for a banking position, not fucking high school kids trying to be a cashier at Wal-Mart. 95% of people on this site have to bust their ass to even get an interview for a position like that in the first place.

Perhaps you should remove the large stick from your ass and consider watching a little television as "contemplating your existence" clearly hasn't gotten you very far since you're posting on here whining about sending out 30+ job applications and not making any progress.

The sweeping generalizations about millennials amaze me sometimes.

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Mar 6, 2018

Nice!

If you had any empathy whatsoever, I'm sure you'd edit your post.

Try people watching for a while, and you'd be amazed at how many people are disconnected from the world around them - especially those at a young age.

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Mar 5, 2018

if you really want someone whose hungry, find someone whose not in IB already

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Mar 5, 2018

true. was thinking this as well. plenty of smart/hard working guys being under-utilised.

Mar 6, 2018

Very true. I've been trying to break into the field for some time. Landed an internship in private equity... work 60 hours a week if not weekends as well...but am still trying to break in after the internship. We are hungry on the outside

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Mar 5, 2018

Or maybe you just aren't very good at screening out the morons based on their resumes? There are plenty of qualified people out there, seems to me like the more your data set expands to include only shitty candidates, the more you can rule out coincidence and start looking internally for a reason you get mooks.

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Mar 10, 2018

I don't get a chance to screen these morons. I pick from the selection of 15-20 applications given to me by our internal recruiter. I would rather have access to all submissions but that is not how things work now.

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Mar 5, 2018

Right, so maybe your internal recruiter is doing a bad job? Maybe your division has a bad reputation and only attracts low-quality recruits.

Objectively, there are tons of qualified, no-nonsense people working in associate-level positions. Presumably, a majority of them, or they wouldn't be employed in the first place. If you are finding the vast majority of your candidates are shitty, then logically speaking, it's probably something on your end, and not the fact that an entire generation is not equipped to do the job.

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Mar 10, 2018

Are you honestly saying showing up late, lying on your resume, and not showing up at all are acceptable? Unqualified candidates are one thing, qualified candidates who act in this way is disgraceful.

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Best Response
Mar 5, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

Are you honestly saying showing up late, lying on your resume, and not showing up at all are acceptable? Unqualified candidates are one thing, qualified candidates who act in this way is disgraceful.

Of course I'm not saying that. If that's your idea of reading comprehension, no wonder you're getting shitty candidates.

What I'm saying is that perhaps you are attracting awful associate candidates for a reason. Maybe you're paying too little, so only the bottom bucket folks at other firms are applying. Maybe your internal recruiter is selecting for the wrong traits or is targeting people who don't have an appropriate skillset (though as you say, most of the behavior you describe is just generally unacceptable). There is a whole host of reasons it could be, though you seem very focused on the statistically-improbable conclusion that "millenials" as a group are bad interviewees, or worse than other generations.

My point is that if you get one or two bad apples in your crop of interviewees, then you complain about them. If the entire group is terrible, then it's no longer a reflection on them, but a reflection on some internal process or criteria your firm is using to select candidates.

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Mar 6, 2018

Maybe Credit Agricole?

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Mar 5, 2018

The first rule of HR is that nearly all of them are shit. They add little value when it comes to screening candidates, and frankly how could you expect a 20something with a degree in art history or "social work" to do anything useful at all, let alone select candidates for an investment banking team? All they know how to do is check boxes off on a list.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."

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Mar 6, 2018
PeterMullersKeyboard:

HR is that nearly all of them are shit. -> HR is shit

AGREED

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Mar 5, 2018

When I look at the people I knew in HS and college that went on to "work" in HR...I now understand why things are going the direction they are currently.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."

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Mar 6, 2018

I actually disagree here despite not being a fan of the original post. People on WSO underestimate how small the pool is for something like an experienced associate.

The pool for untrained but talented people is huge, but for someone with experience, it's pretty small.

Think about it....as an associate with experience, you can already exit-op to the buy side, corporate, or you're looking to make VP at your own shop. Given the many options, there are not a ton of associates trying to lateral. You're probably picking from a pool that can't get the other options or is coming from a lesser known shop. And even in the latter case, an experienced associate from a lesser known place still has plenty of exit-ops options available to him or her.

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Mar 6, 2018

Perhaps hire a new internal recruiter first?

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Mar 6, 2018
Prescott Moncrief lll:

Perhaps hire a new internal recruiter first?

+1 agreed

Good HR makes life so much easier but when they suck they are such a huge pain in the ass. Get good candidates or shut the fuck up and take fingerprints. And for the love of god, don't try to play management and cock block networking, that's where the best connections are made.

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Feb 1, 2019

your internal recruiter is doing a bad job

Mar 5, 2018

I fucking love it. I have this mental frame of everybody in this industry is a total killer with 4 internships at Goldman and a degree from Ivy on some prestigious scholarship. Turns out most people just miss their college days and are totally unmotivated and dissatisfied with how their career is starting. Makes competing way easier.

*every now and then I do meet the person I described.

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Mar 5, 2018

yeah +1 we are all human

Mar 5, 2018

Sounds like your candidates aren't really interested in working for you. You might be their "backup" or "warmup" option, so to speak. I couldn't imagine just not showing up for an interview unless I really didn't give a shit.

You might want to adjust your preferences/requirements downwards. Employers don't seem to realize that the labor market right now is likely overheated. That means that it favors sellers (employees) at the moment. People are bouncing around like crazy at high premiums.

This might be the market telling you that you're being too selective.

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Mar 10, 2018

When we go outside of using an internal referral, the people that walk in the door are most of the time completely unhireable. They may look good on paper, but they tell you what they want to hear, give cookie cutter "interview answers", or have a feeling of entitlement and just generally don't show the drive and hunger I'm looking for.

Give me an "interview answer"... goodbye.

Beat around the bush for two minutes instead of just answering "I don't know"... goodbye.

"Advanced Excel" and you can't tell me the differece between ISNA and IFERROR (or some other basic function question)... goodbye.

Actually, if you accept my offer for water or coffee when I walk into the conference room, it's basically over from there. You are here to interview...not refresh yourself with a tasty beverage, not to blow up the toilet. You should have done that at the starbucks around the corner 10 minutes before you got here. Although it IS understood if you need a break after 3 or 4 hours meeting with people.. I will BRING you a water and offer to show you to the restroom.)

I'd say half over of the 400 original resumes are just **** to begin with. Spelling mistakes, bad grammar, and no one gives two ****s if you play poker. ("If he wants to play poker, have him move to Vegas. We trade bonds here mother$%^&&!" ... actual quote I heard).

One candidate, when asked if they wanted a water or coffee, actually had the moxie to say "I would love a cappuccino, thanks". I'm pretty sure they knew it was downhill from there when half the guys on the floor blurted out in unison some derivative of "ARE YOU FU$%ING KIDDING ME??"

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Mar 5, 2018

Unless you are trolling, you sound like a psychopathic jackass. And you wonder why no one wants to work for you. Hilarious.

    • 12
Mar 5, 2018

Obvious troll

    • 4
Mar 5, 2018

I wouldn't be surprised if you're not trolling and your just a complete asshole. You probably have a story where an applicant walked in wearing a polka dot tie and "... goodbye".

Instead of dismissing applicants for accepting your offer for water maybe try to find out if they'll actually be a good fit the job.

Sounds like most applicants are lucky your an asshole so they avoided ever having to work with you.

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Mar 6, 2018
Babzzz:

I wouldn't be surprised if you're not trolling and your just a complete asshole. You probably have a story where an applicant walked in wearing a polka dot tie and "... goodbye".

Instead of dismissing applicants for accepting your offer for water maybe try to find out if they'll actually be a good fit the job.

Sounds like most applicants are lucky your an asshole so they avoided ever having to work with you.

I'm confused by this post. You use the words 'your' and 'you're' correctly in the post one one occasion each. Yet, you use 'you're' correctly and the incorrect version in the same first sentence.

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Mar 5, 2018

You don't have time to hear all the things I would have done differently

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Mar 6, 2018
Babzzz:

You don't have time to hear all the things I would have done differently

I definitely have the time....

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Mar 5, 2018

I wake up every single night wondering what I could have done differently. This is a pain that will stay with me the rest of my life.

Mar 10, 2018
Babzzz:

I wake up every single night wondering what I could have done differently. This is a pain that will stay with me the rest of my life.

go on...

Mar 5, 2018

They probably don't want to work for a Brit.

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Mar 5, 2018

So you offer an interviewee water, but if they accept "its over?" You sound like a total jackass.

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Mar 6, 2018

I was empathetic to your OP because there are a lot of crappy candidates out there. But, come on, this post just shows you're a troll. Good try, son.

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Mar 6, 2018

Wow. If you don't want to interview me because I accepted a bottle of water, then guess what? I don't want to work for you. You sound like a lunatic.

People generally answer interview questions with interview answers. You don't want that? Ask different questions. People practice these things.

The people you are interviewing are not "unhireable". The problem appears to be that they don't want to work for you because you are a giant dick.

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Mar 6, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

When we go outside of using an internal referral, the people that walk in the door are most of the time completely unhireable. They may look good on paper, but they tell you what they want to hear, give cookie cutter "interview answers", or have a feeling of entitlement and just generally don't show the drive and hunger I'm looking for.

Give me an "interview answer"... goodbye.

Beat around the bush for two minutes instead of just answering "I don't know"... goodbye.

"Advanced Excel" and you can't tell me the differece between ISNA and IFERROR (or some other basic function question)... goodbye.

Actually, if you accept my offer for water or coffee when I walk into the conference room, it's basically over from there. You are here to interview...not refresh yourself with a tasty beverage, not to blow up the toilet. You should have done that at the starbucks around the corner 10 minutes before you got here. Although it IS understood if you need a break after 3 or 4 hours meeting with people.. I will BRING you a water and offer to show you to the restroom.)

I'd say half over of the 400 original resumes are just **** to begin with. Spelling mistakes, bad grammar, and no one gives two ****s if you play poker. ("If he wants to play poker, have him move to Vegas. We trade bonds here mother$%^&&!" ... actual quote I heard).

One candidate, when asked if they wanted a water or coffee, actually had the moxie to say "I would love a cappuccino, thanks". I'm pretty sure they knew it was downhill from there when half the guys on the floor blurted out in unison some derivative of "ARE YOU FU$%ING KIDDING ME??"

You must be the world's worst boss.

FuckBoi

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Mar 7, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

Actually, if you accept my offer for water or coffee when I walk into the conference room, it's basically over from there. You are here to interview...not refresh yourself with a tasty beverage, not to blow up the toilet.

A glass of water isn't a 'tasty beverage' or a toilet risk

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Mar 8, 2018

Pls kill yourself. Pls

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Apr 20, 2018

These delusional comments have led me to believe your whole persona is a troll. Congratulations.

Mar 10, 2018
eric9242:

These delusional comments have led me to believe your whole persona is a troll. Congratulations.

Ain't no trollin here. This is real life kid. I wish it was a fable conjured up by a coked up Lewis Carroll.

Mar 6, 2018

I don't give a shit and I at least still show up to things I give zero fucks about. Can you imagine how little fucks must have been given by that applicant?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

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Mar 5, 2018

Stop lazily calling up the kids from Hah-vahd, kid. Actually search for your Associate, there are good guys out there.

    • 1
Mar 5, 2018

The quality of candidates is a direct result of the unemployment rate, not the generation they were born in. Try sourcing candidates outside of Indeed and you'll have significantly better luck.

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Mar 5, 2018

My advice? Go with a shitty one. It just sounds like if you do find a good one, he'll have your job in 6 months.

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Mar 10, 2018

I fought tooth and nail to get where I'm at, and am clearly the black sheep on the desk if you were to look at backgrounds and credentials.

That being said, to put some perspective into my "water and coffee" comment which I can see being taken as a vulgar display of power and being full of myself. Realize I said "When we go outside using an internal referral". We have filled ~20 new positions at my HF since I was hired. All but two were from internal referrals. (Yes, the unfortunate truth is most of the "sexy" buy-side jobs are who you know. Hell.. not most of, I'd say almost all of them.) The two jobs that weren't internal referrals, one was from a recruiter, and the other was from a posting we put on a job board... Let me tell you what happens when a HF puts a posting on a job board (I've seen us do it twice)

Both times we received between 300-400 resumes in the first 2 days and have to take the posting down. Even though we don't mention we are a HF, people can read between the lines about the requirements of the role and the products we trade and sniff out that this isn't your run-of-the-mill job opportunity. We then take this REAM of paper our Admin hands us and group it into three groups: 1. PhD's 2. MS's and 3. Everyone Else. Then we go through each pile and separate top schools from the rest. We then give a more in depth look in the following order:

Top PhDs > Other PhDs / Top MS > Other MS / Top School Undergrad > No Name Undergrad.

Starting with Top PhDs we then look at work experience as compared to the role, other perks (CFA, etc...) and identify candidates we want to call for an interview. After The Top PhDs we look at Other PhDs and Top MSs... and so forth down the list. We stop at about 10-15 candidates. We call and set up first round interviews. Then we go back to the list where we left off and look for another 10-15 or so. We repeat this with the end goal to get ~5-10 people to call back for second rounds, 2-3 for third rounds, and 1 to hire.

The first time we did this, we found a candidate before breaking into the "Other MS" pile (role eventually went to an internal referral). The second time, we had to go all the way to "No Name Undergrad" and actually ended up hiring a recent grad from a so-so school who is kicking ass, taking names, and I'm sure making more money right now than most of, if not all the people he graduated with (This is my positivity and hope for all the guys looking to break into finance). He showed spark, drive, intellegence, answered honestly, didn't try to BS us, and I knew from his first interview we were going to hire him.,

As you can see we had to interview a **** load of people, and I'm not lying when I say I've seen so much fluff from candidates on resumes and heard so much BS come out of thier mouths that I am a bit jaded when we go to "general population" to fill a role. Me saying "it's basically over" if you accept my water or coffee offer is just another way to thin the herd from ~50 people I have to talk to who are basically identical on paper. I don't want the guy who wants me to take a minute or two to get them a drink 3 seconds after we met... I want the guy who is eager to jump right in and show me what they got. They don't know I have 10 other guys to meet that day (on TOP of my workload), but it should be assumed I'm pretty damn busy and If you want me to give you 30 mins to an Hour to really talk about what you are looking for and your background rather than just 10-15 mins of going over your resume, you better grab my attention from the get go. Harsh... maybe. But sometimes your haircut is enough for me to get the impression you're a douche.

Hiring from an internal referral is a totally different animal. Most of the time half the firm already knows the guy / has worked with him/her in the past and it's basically then a matter of if we are looking for their skillset at that time. If not, we keep them in mind for when they do. They bascailly start at the "Third Round Interview" stage. If they ask for a cappucino, the admin will make it. :)

Point being: don't do anything to give someone an excuse to weed you out. If you're going to get rejected, you want it to be for a legitimate reason, not becasue you were in a lineup with three other "you's" and you did something out of the ordinary. (Ok... maybe my coffee and water criteria IS a little harsh : ) ) Just do the basics... show up on time, get a haircut, shine your shoes, wear a suit, bring your resume. Follow protocol and then let the content of the interview be what stands out. Trust me, after you leave, the people in the office who didn't meet with you SAW you in the office and formed an impression. I have actually been asked by a colleague after the candidate left, "So how was Mr. Too-Lazy-To-Shave"

We might get another 100 that have no business applying to the level of the posted role. Then ~100 people of various education and backgrounds that can do it. No matter your background, we have about 5 or 6 guys IDENTICAL to you who we are interviewing. The truth is we can be picky, and we are. 400 resumes after 2 days... There's more out there if we wanted them.

Advice for candidates still looking:

Keep hustling. You never know when that role will turn up (We have hired from job postings).

Network. If you are offered to go out with a counterparty, or coverage, or service provider, GO. (as long as its compliant). The street is small and people remember you. As I said earlier, referrals are HUGE, notably on the buy-side. Join groups, do meet ups, whatever. People remember people, not words on a resume.

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Mar 6, 2018

Got a lot of time on your hands there to troll internet forums, Mr. busy chip-on-your-shoulder buysider.

Also, in what world is a top Ph.D. candidate qualified for the same role as a "no name undergrad"? As others have mentioned, your interview screening / structuring process sounds all kinds of out of whack. How could you possibly standardize the interviews for four or five cohorts with entirely different skill sets and backgrounds? Unless, of course, you screen by haircuts and water requests.

Consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, the job you're dangling on a carrot, or the firm that you represent, is not nearly as desirable as you think it is? I see this ALL the time. The more chop-shoppy the firm, the more stringent their hiring practices.

I've gone through processes at MSs / GSs (and landed roles) and I've gone through processes at firms like yours. Sellside and buyside. Invariably, the more chip-on-the-shouldery the firm, the more nightmarish was the interview process. To an extent it makes sense, because the small guys have less resources and are taking more risk. Nonetheless, the big boys always tend to get straight to business and do not employ the pretentious tactics you guys apparently employ.

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Mar 10, 2018

The role we went to the job boards for was basically trade support. Our shop is a firm believer of promoting within and most trade support people move to the desk in some capacity within 2-3 years. For job requirements we only list a BS, (and as I posted, we ended up hiring an undergrad). But out of the 100 or so "legitimate" resumes we get from the 400, I would say 10 or so are PhD level (typically they just recently defended their doctoral dissertation and don't want to stay in academia.) A good 30-40 are MS level, and the rest undergrad. From our perspective of knowing the role will move to the desk, having the "overqualiified" person on trade support is just temporary, and we know we have someone on deck to move to the desk who can handle some of the more exotic stuff. As for compensation, it is not listed in the posting but it is very competitive based on not just the role, but what you bring to the table.

Mar 6, 2018

Trade support sounds like back office to me. You mean to tell me you went to random job boards for a back office job and expected the creme de la creme to walk through those doors and "impress" you with Ph.D.s and ivy league polish? And the assumption that this individual would want to stay for 3 years in this role, or even want to "move to the desk"? Wowzers you guys are delusional.

Mar 5, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

We have filled ~20 new positions at my HF since I was hired. All but two were from internal referrals. (Yes, the unfortunate truth is most of the "sexy" buy-side jobs are who you know.

20 new positions? In what time frame? Judging by your previous posts you must have gotten hired last Thursday. Your "Firm/HF" sounds like a sweat shop. One of those pay a fee to show up to work type of place. Big Baller Capital Management

Shaun-Mullins:

The role we went to the job boards for was basically trade support. Our shop is a firm believer of promoting within and most trade support people move to the desk in some capacity within 2-3 years. For job requirements we only list a BS, (and as I posted, we ended up hiring an undergrad). But out of the 100 or so "legitimate" resumes we get from the 400, I would say 10 or so are PhD level (typically they just recently defended their doctoral dissertation and don't want to stay in academia.) A good 30-40 are MS level, and the rest undergrad. From our perspective of knowing the role will move to the desk, having the "overqualiified" person on trade support is just temporary, and we know we have someone on deck to move to the desk who can handle some of the more exotic stuff. As for compensation, it is not listed in the posting but it is very competitive based on not just the role, but what you bring to the table.

If this is true. It's hilarious

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Mar 10, 2018
iggs99988:

Got a lot of time on your hands there to troll internet forums, Mr. busy chip-on-your-shoulder buysider.

Also, in what world is a top Ph.D. candidate qualified for the same role as a "no name undergrad"? As others have mentioned, your interview screening / structuring process sounds all kinds of out of whack. How could you possibly standardize the interviews for four or five cohorts with entirely different skill sets and backgrounds? Unless, of course, you screen by haircuts and water requests.

Consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, the job you're dangling on a carrot, or the firm that you represent, is not nearly as desirable as you think it is? I see this ALL the time. The more chop-shoppy the firm, the more stringent their hiring practices.

I've gone through processes at MSs / GSs (and landed roles) and I've gone through processes at firms like yours. Sellside and buyside. Invariably, the more chip-on-the-shouldery the firm, the more nightmarish was the interview process. To an extent it makes sense, because the small guys have less resources and are taking more risk. Nonetheless, the big boys always tend to get straight to business and do not employ the pretentious tactics you guys apparently employ.

I will say you likely are the exception to the rule based on the data points I've experienced. Wait a few years until you're on my side of the table before your write me off as wrong.

Mar 6, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

He showed ... intellegence ...

The irony is strong with this one.

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Mar 5, 2018

This may be the most sophisticated troll ever

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Mar 6, 2018

Ding'ed for accepting a water? Gtfo.

Mar 6, 2018
Banker88:

Ding'ed for accepting a water? Gtfo.

+1

    • 3
Mar 6, 2018

A few points: I don't think the OP is trolling. I think he is rightfully frustrated with some of the candidates he had to interview and more than just a little bit of an ass.

As a rule, don't offer someone coffee as a test to see if they have considered how busy you are, and whether grabbing a quick coffee in the office is a good use of your time. It's not like they're coming in asking if you can go grab them a coffee. You're asking them if they'd like a coffee and then holding it against them if they would actually like the thing you just offered them. If I lost a job over something that stupid, I might physically assault you. The concept is so dumb, it actually angers me.

You see, I used to be a trader, and I was excellent at what I did. I left the markets because of dicks like you, and I was a real loss to my firm because I made money from nothing. I also have a couple of master's degrees from top 5 global universities in math and finance, and had no problem getting people coffees and teas and breakfasts and lunches multiple times per day in addition to being the first person in the office, the last one to leave, and making more than 5M GBP in P&L in macro prop trading my first year on the floor. I left the markets because of people like you.

I explain this because I think you need a reality check. Yes, all of the examples of the kids you are currently interviewing are ridiculous. You can't be late to interviews, forget to shave, or simply not turn up. That's frustrating. And I hate it when people exaggerate on their CVs as well or list colorful extracurricular nonsense that has nothing to do with the job. But you must see that your attitude going into the interviews (at least given what you've written in this thread) is off-putting. Interviews for people with real ability are absolutely two-way processes. Too many traders and PMs are just fucking psychopaths, and are TERRIBLE managers and interviewers.

There is a good reason for this. Good traders eventually become more senior traders without ever having to really manage anyone, so you have a lot of managerial incompetence at HFs and on trading floors precisely because the people running them didn't get to their positions by being good leaders, but instead by making money for their firms. And while that's not ideal (especially from a capital raising perspective), it's understandable. What is harder to countenance is the tendency for macro PMs to readily discuss the 'psychology of the markets' or espouse the virtues of 'the human element' in the system while completely ignoring their own psychopathy.

Now, if you've made it this far, I feel you deserve some constructive advice for recruiting purposes. Choose to mentor someone that really needs the role. While PhDs might be nice, they're overqualified for what you seem to be offering. The job market for quant PhDs is very tight at the moment, and they might only be passively interested in finance. I'd look to the top MS programs first. I'd actually call the departments at, say, Princeton and MIT in the US (maybe Columbia, NYU, UChicago as well for their financial mathematics programs) and LSE, Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial in the UK. Talk to the faculty to see if there is a kid or two worth interviewing. They might not possess all of the technical skills you want right off the bat, but you want someone who can learn the role, not someone who is already overqualified for the position, so you're better off going with someone smart who feels lucky to be there. The quant PhDs can leave any time they want and get another job almost immediately.

I was on my undergraduate university's Putnam team, and I can assure you that I was best at figuring out new problems when I was 20 or 21. Your math ability peaks around that time. Most PhD students were worse at math than I was as an undergrad. They knew one area of math better than me, but they generally sacrificed broad knowledge across several disciplines to specialize in one. I don't know how useful that is to your fund, so I would spend more time trying to recruit kids who place high on the Putnam exams as opposed to people who simply spent more time in graduate school. Those kids are also likely to be more grateful for the job, but that requires you to be a more graceful interviewer and a more conscientious manager.

    • 19
Mar 6, 2018

OP is still in undergrad or not in the industry at all

    • 1
Mar 10, 2018
brotherbear:

A few points: I don't think the OP is trolling. I think he is rightfully frustrated with some of the candidates he had to interview and more than just a little bit of an ass.

As a rule, don't offer someone coffee as a test to see if they have considered how busy you are, and whether grabbing a quick coffee in the office is a good use of your time. It's not like they're coming in asking if you can go grab them a coffee. You're asking them if they'd like a coffee and then holding it against them if they would actually like the thing you just offered them. If I lost a job over something that stupid, I might physically assault you. The concept is so dumb, it actually angers me.

You see, I used to be a trader, and I was excellent at what I did. I left the markets because of dicks like you, and I was a real loss to my firm because I made money from nothing. I also have a couple of master's degrees from top 5 global universities in math and finance, and had no problem getting people coffees and teas and breakfasts and lunches multiple times per day in addition to being the first person in the office, the last one to leave, and making more than 5M GBP in P&L in macro prop trading my first year on the floor. I left the markets because of people like you.

I explain this because I think you need a reality check. Yes, all of the examples of the kids you are currently interviewing are ridiculous. You can't be late to interviews, forget to shave, or simply not turn up. That's frustrating. And I hate it when people exaggerate on their CVs as well or list colorful extracurricular nonsense that has nothing to do with the job. But you must see that your attitude going into the interviews (at least given what you've written in this thread) is off-putting. Interviews for people with real ability are absolutely two-way processes. Too many traders and PMs are just fucking psychopaths, and are TERRIBLE managers and interviewers.

There is a good reason for this. Good traders eventually become more senior traders without ever having to really manage anyone, so you have a lot of managerial incompetence at HFs and on trading floors precisely because the people running them didn't get to their positions by being good leaders, but instead by making money for their firms. And while that's not ideal (especially from a capital raising perspective), it's understandable. What is harder to countenance is the tendency for macro PMs to readily discuss the 'psychology of the markets' or espouse the virtues of 'the human element' in the system while completely ignoring their own psychopathy.

Now, if you've made it this far, I feel you deserve some constructive advice for recruiting purposes. Choose to mentor someone that really needs the role. While PhDs might be nice, they're overqualified for what you seem to be offering. The job market for quant PhDs is very tight at the moment, and they might only be passively interested in finance. I'd look to the top MS programs first. I'd actually call the departments at, say, Princeton and MIT in the US (maybe Columbia, NYU, UChicago as well for their financial mathematics programs) and LSE, Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial in the UK. Talk to the faculty to see if there is a kid or two worth interviewing. They might not possess all of the technical skills you want right off the bat, but you want someone who can learn the role, not someone who is already overqualified for the position, so you're better off going with someone smart who feels lucky to be there. The quant PhDs can leave any time they want and get another job almost immediately.

I was on my undergraduate university's Putnam team, and I can assure you that I was best at figuring out new problems when I was 20 or 21. Your math ability peaks around that time. Most PhD students were worse at math than I was as an undergrad. They knew one area of math better than me, but they generally sacrificed broad knowledge across several disciplines to specialize in one. I don't know how useful that is to your fund, so I would spend more time trying to recruit kids who place high on the Putnam exams as opposed to people who simply spent more time in graduate school. Those kids are also likely to be more grateful for the job, but that requires you to be a more graceful interviewer and a more conscientious manager.

Respect.

    • 2
Mar 7, 2018
brotherbear:

A few points: I don't think the OP is trolling. I think he is rightfully frustrated with some of the candidates he had to interview and more than just a little bit of an ass.

As a rule, don't offer someone coffee as a test to see if they have considered how busy you are, and whether grabbing a quick coffee in the office is a good use of your time. It's not like they're coming in asking if you can go grab them a coffee. You're asking them if they'd like a coffee and then holding it against them if they would actually like the thing you just offered them. If I lost a job over something that stupid, I might physically assault you. The concept is so dumb, it actually angers me.

You see, I used to be a trader, and I was excellent at what I did. I left the markets because of dicks like you, and I was a real loss to my firm because I made money from nothing. I also have a couple of master's degrees from top 5 global universities in math and finance, and had no problem getting people coffees and teas and breakfasts and lunches multiple times per day in addition to being the first person in the office, the last one to leave, and making more than 5M GBP in P&L in macro prop trading my first year on the floor. I left the markets because of people like you.

I explain this because I think you need a reality check. Yes, all of the examples of the kids you are currently interviewing are ridiculous. You can't be late to interviews, forget to shave, or simply not turn up. That's frustrating. And I hate it when people exaggerate on their CVs as well or list colorful extracurricular nonsense that has nothing to do with the job. But you must see that your attitude going into the interviews (at least given what you've written in this thread) is off-putting. Interviews for people with real ability are absolutely two-way processes. Too many traders and PMs are just fucking psychopaths, and are TERRIBLE managers and interviewers.

There is a good reason for this. Good traders eventually become more senior traders without ever having to really manage anyone, so you have a lot of managerial incompetence at HFs and on trading floors precisely because the people running them didn't get to their positions by being good leaders, but instead by making money for their firms. And while that's not ideal (especially from a capital raising perspective), it's understandable. What is harder to countenance is the tendency for macro PMs to readily discuss the 'psychology of the markets' or espouse the virtues of 'the human element' in the system while completely ignoring their own psychopathy.

Now, if you've made it this far, I feel you deserve some constructive advice for recruiting purposes. Choose to mentor someone that really needs the role. While PhDs might be nice, they're overqualified for what you seem to be offering. The job market for quant PhDs is very tight at the moment, and they might only be passively interested in finance. I'd look to the top MS programs first. I'd actually call the departments at, say, Princeton and MIT in the US (maybe Columbia, NYU, UChicago as well for their financial mathematics programs) and LSE, Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial in the UK. Talk to the faculty to see if there is a kid or two worth interviewing. They might not possess all of the technical skills you want right off the bat, but you want someone who can learn the role, not someone who is already overqualified for the position, so you're better off going with someone smart who feels lucky to be there. The quant PhDs can leave any time they want and get another job almost immediately.

I was on my undergraduate university's Putnam team, and I can assure you that I was best at figuring out new problems when I was 20 or 21. Your math ability peaks around that time. Most PhD students were worse at math than I was as an undergrad. They knew one area of math better than me, but they generally sacrificed broad knowledge across several disciplines to specialize in one. I don't know how useful that is to your fund, so I would spend more time trying to recruit kids who place high on the Putnam exams as opposed to people who simply spent more time in graduate school. Those kids are also likely to be more grateful for the job, but that requires you to be a more graceful interviewer and a more conscientious manager.

OK -- I've been offered coffee and water in interviews. Frankly, if I don't take one of those, I feel that I'm being impolite to the interviewer. So I say yes to one just out of politeness.

You seem to have an exact mold of people you want, most of whom don't fit it. Job markets are also tight...

    • 4
Mar 6, 2018

Bruh you're an angry prospective monkey that won't break in. Stop with the fictitious posts

    • 2
    • 1
Mar 6, 2018

This is some good fan fiction. Which is it, do you get a handful of resumes from HR or do you go through your elaborate sorting process? I thought like a month ago you posted that you were looking for a place to stay in SF because you took a VC gig. You should really figure out what you do for a living.

    • 1
    • 1
Mar 6, 2018

I don't know what's sadder. The guy faking this post, or you taking the time to research his profile to find out.

Mar 6, 2018

It's called a memory.

Mar 10, 2018

you got me detective, you got me.

Mar 6, 2018

Deleted my original comment here. I'm not gonna spread hate. This guy has more than enough to dish out.

OP there are some great, insightful comments in this thread you should take with absolute seriousness.

Mar 6, 2018

OP are you interviewing single moms?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Mar 7, 2018

Op is a huge loser

Mar 7, 2018

What's about selection bias?

Mar 7, 2018

"jeez"

Mar 7, 2018

Shaun-Mullins, how are you? I would like to work for you. Where should I apply? Thanks

Mar 10, 2018

You'd all be shocked at how many resumes/private messages I've received about this open role rant.

    • 1
Mar 7, 2018

I am sure none of them want to work for you as I do. But there is one tweak there, probably I am less qualified than the other candidates. But I can assure you I will be consistent and hard working.

Mar 8, 2018

OP you posted you're a 25 year old 3 months ago.

You're more millennial than me.

Mar 7, 2018

My first engineering interview I showed up to the wrong building, an hour late, repeatedly called the interviewing hiring manager by wrong name (his name was Kevin and I kept calling him Steve, he had to correct me ~5 times), wore visible mismatched socks and outfit that clashed on close inspection AND Accepted offer for coffee AND (later) water.

Not only was I hired, but I managed to push a 4% increase in salary. Was with company for alsomt 4 years and got a promo.

Y'all need to get in a STEM field, no amount of money is worth getting shit on like this.

Mar 8, 2018

if i leave my coffee at the coffee machine long enough my manager eventually brings it to me. #lifehack

    • 1
Mar 6, 2018
fuwad84:

I managed to push a 4% increase in salary.

4%????Damn son.....what did you do with that extra $50 after-tax per week? Baller lifestyle!!!!!

    • 1
Mar 7, 2018

Much more than that Dick, since I don't basically have to live in a high tax'n spend state to practice my chosen profession. What's cost of living like in NYC, Gold Coast or any other money hub? Ouch! You stock monkeys deal with all this daily and weekend bullshit and you don't even get to keep the majority of what you earn. Lemme conclude by saying: wrong career choice.

    • 1
Mar 6, 2018
fuwad84:

Much more than that Dick, since I don't basically have to live in a high tax'n spend state to practice my chosen profession. What's cost of living like in NYC, Gold Coast or any other money hub? Ouch! You stock monkeys deal with all this daily and weekend bullshit and you don't even get to keep the majority of what you earn. Lemme conclude by saying: wrong career choice.

Oh wow, I was WAY low on your FIRST engineering interview? What is it like, $100 extra per week after tax? Meaning you made about $200K per year in base salary? We might have a different definition of "much".

    • 1
    • 1
Mar 7, 2018

You know what DickFuld,

I owe you an apology, I was bored so I went back and crunched some math and... $50 extra per week net was actually close-ish.

You were (mostly) right and my response was uncalled for. I'm sorry.

Mar 10, 2018

OP, @Shaun-Mullins , HR uses a standardized list of key word phrases when they do their searches to go through the massive loads of resumes/CV they receive. Majority of the people you end up getting is because they made it past HR keyword algorithms, and matched a "X" criteria they had put forth.

I can understand being late, I get lost myself. But twice to the same, I would not do that. If they were hired, how are you going to explain to your boss that the candidate hired on is constantly late (unprofessional outlook).

So, OP, to fill the Associate role, or make yourself "hireable," what is the list of your criteria?

On a side note @Shaun-Mullins , I was looking up the " ISNA and IFERROR " comment regarding Excel. Pretty cool, I haven't fully realized Excel's true potential. A lot of the windows testing I did on RF devices were done in Excel.

@Ozymandia hit it right on the nail. @PeterMullersKeyboard - that's just it, everything is a checkbox in the end. Most of the brightest engineers I have had the pleasure to work with never finished a college degree, they were part of the company when it was still small and stayed after it blew up.

No pain no game.

Mar 10, 2018
Shaun-Mullins:

I have been looking for an associate for a while now: smart, eager, ability to really dig into something. I don't care if you came from a lesser shop if you can prove you got the fight and drive.

So, I interviewed a dozen people and everyone has been pretty bad for the dumbest reasons. I am getting really tired of this. The problems I've seen include:

-anything on your resume is fair game for me to ask. if you're going to use fancy terms on your work experience, you better be ready to explain it. I asked for a bit more clarity on 1 guy's first bullet, and he crumbled. nice guy, but I can see through your BS resume in a flash.

-1 guy comes in, leans back in his chair all big-shot like, rocks back and forth in the chair, and talks as I owe him for the privelege of him coming to see me. (he's currently at a shop that's pretty sh***y) I threw him out fast.

-another guy during Q&A literally asks, "what's work/life balance like, I highly value that." why would you even say that? do you have any sense at all? Go teach kindergarten.

-The 1 hot girl that did well showed up 20 min late to her 1st and 2nd round without any real excuse. Leave yourself extra time jeez. maybe 1st time you got lost ok, but 2x? am I here to wait for you?

-1 guy is 30 minutes late, finally get an email from him: "sorry, my manager is out, I need to reschedule". really? I'm going to buy that? you couldn't have told me that 20-30 min BEFORE the scheduled interview he was out?

quality really downhill these days.. I don't remember the pool ever being this bad.

brah, did you ever find that roommate in San Francisco

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 1
Mar 10, 2018
Isaiah_53_5:
Shaun-Mullins:

I have been looking for an associate for a while now: smart, eager, ability to really dig into something. I don't care if you came from a lesser shop if you can prove you got the fight and drive.

So, I interviewed a dozen people and everyone has been pretty bad for the dumbest reasons. I am getting really tired of this. The problems I've seen include:

-anything on your resume is fair game for me to ask. if you're going to use fancy terms on your work experience, you better be ready to explain it. I asked for a bit more clarity on 1 guy's first bullet, and he crumbled. nice guy, but I can see through your BS resume in a flash.

-1 guy comes in, leans back in his chair all big-shot like, rocks back and forth in the chair, and talks as I owe him for the privelege of him coming to see me. (he's currently at a shop that's pretty sh***y) I threw him out fast.

-another guy during Q&A literally asks, "what's work/life balance like, I highly value that." why would you even say that? do you have any sense at all? Go teach kindergarten.

-The 1 hot girl that did well showed up 20 min late to her 1st and 2nd round without any real excuse. Leave yourself extra time jeez. maybe 1st time you got lost ok, but 2x? am I here to wait for you?

-1 guy is 30 minutes late, finally get an email from him: "sorry, my manager is out, I need to reschedule". really? I'm going to buy that? you couldn't have told me that 20-30 min BEFORE the scheduled interview he was out?

quality really downhill these days.. I don't remember the pool ever being this bad.

brah, did you ever find that roommate in San Francisco

Yeah fool, on Squirt.com.

    • 1
Mar 10, 2018
Isaiah_53_5:
Shaun-Mullins:

I have been looking for an associate for a while now: smart, eager, ability to really dig into something. I don't care if you came from a lesser shop if you can prove you got the fight and drive.

So, I interviewed a dozen people and everyone has been pretty bad for the dumbest reasons. I am getting really tired of this. The problems I've seen include:

-anything on your resume is fair game for me to ask. if you're going to use fancy terms on your work experience, you better be ready to explain it. I asked for a bit more clarity on 1 guy's first bullet, and he crumbled. nice guy, but I can see through your BS resume in a flash.

-1 guy comes in, leans back in his chair all big-shot like, rocks back and forth in the chair, and talks as I owe him for the privelege of him coming to see me. (he's currently at a shop that's pretty sh***y) I threw him out fast.

-another guy during Q&A literally asks, "what's work/life balance like, I highly value that." why would you even say that? do you have any sense at all? Go teach kindergarten.

-The 1 hot girl that did well showed up 20 min late to her 1st and 2nd round without any real excuse. Leave yourself extra time jeez. maybe 1st time you got lost ok, but 2x? am I here to wait for you?

-1 guy is 30 minutes late, finally get an email from him: "sorry, my manager is out, I need to reschedule". really? I'm going to buy that? you couldn't have told me that 20-30 min BEFORE the scheduled interview he was out?

quality really downhill these days.. I don't remember the pool ever being this bad.

brah, did you ever find that roommate in San Francisco

Someone just threw MS at this comment from the long past.

Only logical conclusion: Shaun Mullins is back

Who needs a roommate?!?! He's like a prominent VP but still needs roommates...

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

    • 3
Mar 11, 2018

Don't blame an entire generation for your incompetence. The only issue with the scenario you are describing is your inability to do any screening whatsoever. Let's take this hot girl you mentioned as an example. Are you really telling me that she showed up late to her first interview and was subsequently invited to a second interview? That reeks of desperation on your part and tells me your shop 1). has shitty dealflow, 2). pays shit, and/or 3). lacks the ability to attract competitive candidates. Since you're interviewing candidates for the ASSOCIATE level, that tells me that most likely all three of the aforementioned points are correct.

Crappy candidates exist in all ages and generations. It's your job as the employer to screen them out. You've failed to do so.

    • 1
Mar 11, 2018
    • 1
Mar 12, 2018
Feb 1, 2019
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Feb 1, 2019
Feb 1, 2019