IB - Permanent WFH
Wondering if any banks have offered their junior staff a permanent work from home arrangement?
Thanks in advance!
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Corporate function roles may be possible (finance, HR, risk, ops) for permanent WFH but front office roles such as IB won't slide. Senior management understands face-time wins clients, and while most banks are hybrid right now they'll eventually want to convert to full 5 days in office.
How does me as an analyst being in person with required face-time win clients?
it gives VPs and MDs the pleasure of berating you in person which ultimately helps them win clients
I think permanent work from home would be a massive detriment to the apprenticeship model of IB.
There are so many things you pick up by being in the office, overhearing conversations, being pulled into calls, etc.
If that goes away, analysts will not learn as effectively and the job just turns into tweaking models and turning comments, without the corresponding learning.
Sure, there is still formal training, but so much gets done outside of that it's crazy. An MD can't put a client on hold and say "hang on let me get my analyst" but they can yell out the door or email you to come by their office and listen in.
Your colleagues won't call you and say, I want you to hear our discussion about this structuring, but if they're talking about it next to you, you can listen and learn.
I understand people absolutely loathe putting on real clothes and treking to work, but it's such an important part of professional development that I genuinely believe the people who haven't been in the industry for a while aren't understanding. Now that doesn't mean I agree with staying all night to wait for comments, obvious WFH has been proven to work, but there needs to be an appropriate balance.
Personally I’ve been in most of the calls with clients since I joined. Training is a bit slower, however you talk about it in terms of intangibles and this is plain wrong. The advantage of remove is your MDs do travel as much as before which means juniors can actually join the calls.
Tbh what you didn’t mention is that you easily gain 1h of sleep A day without commute / formally dressing first thing etc, which is also quite accretive to your learning curve
Also.... you don’t have to bear the pain of office noise
Whatever you feel, good luck.
I made an account just to reply to this comment.
The above is complete horseshit. Boomer talk. Back to the Stone Age talk.
The "apprenticeship model" has resulted in high turnover and struggle for banks to recruit talent. Look at who's staying at banks, generally not people with options or visa issues.
I will be looking for a job as soon as return to office starts full time. Sorry, I am not interested in sitting in the office so that you can feel needed, important, or can't cope with working independently to get shit done.
Realistically, very few of us will make to MD and it ain't a result of talent or desire. It's the current culture that is beholden by regulation, ancient technology, and boomers who can't evolve.
Wow, you guys are really worked up over this. Don't come in to the office, doesn't affect my career at all.
I can tell you guys will do well with your ability to listen to experience. Best of luck.
I think it's a double-edged sword and I'm leaning towards the downside of that "sword". This industry has a ton of inefficiency and because of how people do things in an "apprenticeship", nobody ever innovates new ways to do things. I'm not talking about developing that next iPhone here. Simple example:
You ask lawyers, accountants, clients, co-lead banks on their preferred time to meet. You give them a standardized-format Excel sheet.
What happens 99% of time is every single person gives you his/her own response and you are responsible for consolidating and choosing an optimal time window that is the most suitable, based on how many votes the time window gets.
If you know some intermediate VBA, you spend at most 1 hour writing the program, and after that, every time you need to consolidate 20-30 people's time sheets, you run the VBA program and within 1 minute everything is done into a well-formatted summary sheet that has everything in it.
The thing is if you are sitting in the office and your MD/VP sees you writing code, chance is s/he asking "yo whatcha doing? Don't write that code. Just do your consolidation".
It happened to me. The same thing MIGHT go for writing some SQL queries to filter data --- and you can actually save that filtered data set into a different Excel spreadsheet, which is better than your "Data-Filter-Click Boxes" approach. You can also write VBA codes when you have a lot of data to analyze for some ad-hoc work.
On the other hand, if you are doing some modeling, it's really the best option to have someone sitting in the office and walking you through concepts you are not familiar with or are not sure about. Facetime or Zoom meeting is not the way to go on this.
Otherwise I don't see other privileges of the apprenticeship model.
This take is kind of out of touch with what’s actually happening in the junior level. I think it’s just a stereotypical opinion without being intentional or thinking about past surface level.
Prior to Zoom, juniors would never be included in Management meetings. Now, you’re never not included Bc MDs and Ds can’t work out how to screen share a deck. You’re included on infinitely more Calls in WFH than you were in office. You’re also more likely to be briefed on what happened in those calls in the case you weren’t simply Bc senior bankers are being forced to communicate more since they can’t just walk outside and tell you to do sowmthing and assume you’ll get it.
Also, most analysts stay for 2-3 years and leave, so the yes, there was some guidance, but I think “apprenticeship” is such a stretch. MDs have no interest in analysts’ futures and will act as such. In general, they treat analysts as a disposable resource.
The benefits of WFH are clear so I donthave to tell you those. And there is a reason why the majority prefer wfh or hybrid, and these are people who obviously care about their careers and learning. Maybe it differs at the VP level and up, but your take is dishonest at best if you don’t speak with that specificity and generalize.
I'm out the banking door and don't have a dog in the fight, and although a hybrid model is probably ideal, there's something to be said for being in office. Yeah - you learn some from being on management calls (although there were plenty of telephonic pitches pre-COVID), but having the ability to talk/work/learn more directly from a senior associate or hands-on (in a good way) VP is invaluable. Was fortunate to have a great 4th-year associate when I hit the desk who was good at developing analysts and there's a legit intangible to being able to bounce thoughts off of someone like that at any time, learn how they approach deliverables, and watch them work / interact w/ senior bankers / clients so that you can imitate them.
No one should give a fuck about face time for the sake of face time. If you have nothing on your plate at 7pm get the fuck out of there - if there's something incoming later in the night, it's probably not due until the next day and you can get started from home. However, if you've never been in office, you don't have any grounds for comparison so candidly, your opinion isn't worth very much.
I can't agree with this more. It's so hard to learn from home. You don't totally understand everything and you can't ask proper questions because you don't fully understand everything. Yes you can share your screen, but there's nothing quite like having a superior standing over you pointing at things in document or application. You don't know what calls to join, sit in on, or just overhear when you're at home. I learn so much more in the office than I do at home. It's so noticeable to me. I learn better this way too, so I'm a big fan of going into the office.
Also, hours can be long and tough. It's nice to be around other people who are there working with you. Builds that camaraderie that'll help your mental health, make work slightly more enjoyable, and give you connections later on in your career. I also think it’s really important to be able to separate work and what left you have of your normal life as possible and establish strong boundaries to maintain this.
Not saying WFH doesn’t work, but it just doesn’t work for me. I think hybrid is the way to go. My team tends to only go into the office on Tuesday through Thursday.
Are you at a non-PWP/Laz?
I didn't think I agreed but - from a PE perspective - our latest round of analysts and associates seem significantly less capable than in years past. Maybe we didn't vet well enough over zoom interviews but part of me thinks there is a lot of commercial points that are taught in the office that they missed.
What you stated completely depends on your group/company, etc. We brought on an analyst during Covid and he's been remote and has acted like a leader. The reason is that we've given him flexibility to reach out to clients and discuss details of the transaction. We don't have energy trying to coordinate zoom calls each time a client has a question. Instead we put them in touch with our analyst. However, the analyst is also picking up the phone, calling our clients, discussing numbers, etc. We step in on bigger needs, but let him handle the basic work. Obviously the large bulge brackets wont let this fly, but it depends entirely on how senior management runs things.
There's so much to lose by not being in person. If you don't work in person, you never get to appreciate just how much of the jobs is done face-to-face and how much more efficient it is. Even more important is the soft stuff, the little conversations, the camaraderie, the learning you do with other analysts and associates.
My company is WFH until November 1, and permanently hybrid (3+2). I wish we could go back since sitting at home in the woods 40 mins outside of a LCOL city is boring.
Yea.. those of us who weren't born in bumfuck nowhere don't want to sit next to you all day. Get a hobby.
Ouch
we've been wfh so long there's 1 analyst in my team that has never seen the office and already exited to buyside
We had like 3, such a funny thing to think about.
Following. I would think a hybrid Tue-Thurs in office would solve most if not all issues discussed here?
Alright this might get monkey shit, but I don’t know wtf people are talking about when they say being in person gets you accelerated learning. Having done this job in person and not in person for several years here is what I’ve seen:
1) joining a call through zoom/teams is about as easy as possible. Aside from calls where senior people on my team want to keep it to a low number, I’ve been on more calls I think during wfh than otherwise. I don’t know wtf you guys are talking about where the MD will call you into his office to listen to a call that is completely unrelated to the transaction you are working on for “learning purposes”. Even if this does happen, I can’t imagine this happens frequently enough to outweigh the other benefits. Personally, this happened maybe twice from my experience as a first year where I was able to listen to a call completely unrelated to my transaction. Generally, my team is open book if you are on a deal, but otherwise they rightfully assume you are just too busy.
2) I’ve been so busy in this role during wfh and not that I don’t understand people’s argument about “the random calls and learning on the side” I’m cranking pretty non-stop during the day and for the majority of months, in this current market especially, there’s no chance I would have been able to leave tasks I’ve been working on to check out some neighbors unrelated deal work. In fact my office now allows you to choose wfh or not and one of the biggest reasons to determine whether I go into the office is actually how busy I am. If I’m not busy, I might as well go in and socialize and have bs conversations, but the notion that a majority of the time you are able to just hop off all your other deal work to like listen to a neighbors call or something is ridiculously overblown. If people don’t have time to shower/get 8 hours of sleep, they don’t have time to listen to a neighbors call.
3) As another user mentioned, the sleep savings massively accelerates learning. If you get 5 hours of sleep consistently you aren’t learning shit because you feel like your entire life is a dream. Wfh has allowed things like mid-day naps, late starts, and mediation breaks to make just a way more effective ability to schedule personal health. Granted some people likely screw this up by going on their phone etc, but it’s a joke to claim not getting more sleep doesn’t make this job significantly better from a life and learning standpoint.
4) Rather than be forced to look busy, you can do stuff that interests you work related or not. I can’t even remember how many days when I first started where I would be just in a model doing nothing when I first started because I was exhausted and forced to look busy with people looking over my shoulder. Now, I’ll log in an hour later and open up deal models that I wasn’t even on to understand what occurred in previous last transactions.
5) Screen sharing has made it way way easier in my opinion to walk through things. Previously you did this awkward look over someone’s shoulder thing as you held a personal notebook and tried to garbage scribble notes because it was hard to describe in words what a person was doing on the computer while writing.
Now, I will either record the video, screen shot the video chat, type on the side, or follow along in my own file notating and it just makes the process way faster. Same thing for teaching, when teaching analysts I now just have them record me walking through things.
6) on that same vein, it’s pretty easy to message someone—“can I call you really quick” have them walkthrough a specific task, then hangup after 2 minutes. I call people outside of my immediate office way way more frequently now. I think it increases cross office collaboration where I am calling a dude from SF all the time now because it’s really easy to video chat/ ask a question quickly.
What I think has been lost:
1) a bad analyst can flail a lot more if they are afraid to ask questions
2) with this, a slower ramp for people not confident enough to ask questions/ call. People say, “slower ramp” and I think it’s BS. Some ramped just as fast or faster, on the aggregate it was slower, but plenty of people had no problem—the slow ramp wasn’t universal.
3) You no longer know people outside your deal teams. This affects networking, culture, etc. especially within your class, I feel like this job has no aspect of camaraderie now.
4) With a lack of camaraderie and the ease of interviewing during the work day, it’s easier to leave—this is both a pro and a con though
5) It’s even easier for MD’s to be sociopaths—many of them don’t know analysts names and just view it as like shipping stuff off to India to be completed at this point.
At the end of the day, I firmly believe almost any in the office benefit you can get if you just take initiative. Want to talk to an MD? Ask him/her to setup a private call to discuss their specialty etc. Slow to ramp? Call a senior analyst and have them video share walking through something. This whole, “IB is learned at a watercooler” bullshit is so silly for a job that is stupidly inefficient and consistently involves sleep depriving workers. Personally, I view WFH as one of the first innovations in the industry in a long time and thankfully it happened right when the market got about as hot as possible. Had wfh not happened, I think less deals would have been able to get done because the industry is so bad at innovating they would rather turn away deals than make things more efficient or different. In the future, I think there will still be a need for in-person meetings, but I do think many clients won’t care about being in-person and this will allow for more flexibility from shops that take a more progressive approach.
King
5) It's even easier for MD's to be sociopaths-many of them don't know analysts names and just view it as like shipping stuff off to India to be completed at this point.
funny, the only people reaching out to me to join IB are indians lol. americans dont want to do this job.
eventually asking analysts to do work WILL be like shipping stuff to India
I'm currently living in Shanghai and I've seen a lot of instances of companies (not only in finance) with teams made up of people living in different cities (ex. One person from HK, Dallas,New York, and two people in Shanghai) all working on a project for one company because the work doesn't require face to face interaction. If WFH becomes more popular I think the scenario you mentioned could definitely become realistic and preferred if it saves money. WFH might not be a great trend from the global perspective because workers would have to start competing for jobs at a global level. That's not a pleasant thought.
Lazard is doing permanent Monday/Friday WFH (when we eventually go back) and one month per year work-from-anywhere. I think one other EB at least (PWP maybe? could be wrong) is doing Monday/Friday WFH
Monday and Friday at least WFH seems like a no brainer. I think everyone with different opinions is happy this way.
Yeah the one month WFH anywhere is pretty interesting. My bank has no official return policy yet and some groups have almost nobody in the office, but even those that do it seems like Tues-Thurs is seeming like it could be the norm.
Baird is doing M/F wfh as well
Permanently?
Can anyone else confirm? Is this NYC?
If I had two competing offers, I honestly don't know how much more I would need to make to go back into the office 5-days per week. I love working from home and just occasionally traveling to meetings. This 100% might change when I have kids especially if I don't have a standalone office where I can get away from everyone.
JPM and Citi have offered perm WFH to some IB analysts
Is this confirmed?
For medical reasons? This would piss a ton of people off if not
Moelis is WFH Friday
We have temporary exceptions until further notice, but honestly I can compromise with a well balanced hybrid schedule because sometimes there are days when it's still nice to come in to the office for the right productive reasons.
It sounds like WFH works fine, but I personally would've struggled with it. Looking back, my favorite memories are pretty much all from bullpen banter. The actual work/lifestyle still sucked, but being able to commiserate in person and have dinner together was a huge plus for me. That comradery and support was probably a lifesaver for my mental health.
I definitely agree with this. I’m a little bit older now so it works great for me but I can’t have imagined living on my own, right out of college and working 100 hour weeks remote. One of the reasons I picked IB over consulting was I grew up playing sports and wanted to be in the bullpen with a group of like-minded people going through the same thing as me. However, I still think the industry needs to adapt to be competitive but I don’t have a good answer of what that should look like in the future.
As soon as WFH ends there will be a mass exodus of analysts from my BB lol - none of these guys have any real intention of returning to the office. They'd rather take a 50% paycut so bumping the salary like 20% means jack shit
Agreed with the above re not getting to know people from your office being the only relevant and credible drawback from wfh.
Rest is Imo bs from poor analysts who would struggle in the office as much as they do remotely.
Saddest thing however is how some ask for policies or rules rather than navigating uncertainty trying to get the most out of it
Waking up 45mn earlier to get ready and commute to office to get there at 9am when we’re already sleep deprived to the point it has health consequences seems overly unreasonable to me. So no I won’t be there at 9am sharp. If 1st years analysts have an issue with learning they can call me and I can probably better explain to them how to spread comps on screenshare than in person
Throughout the pandemic the one thing I was worried about was how analysts would come up to speed. But that didn't really pan out. I have one analyst who's the worst I've ever seen, but they're definitely an exception considering all of the other analysts I've seen come up during WFH have been doing great. I don't think WFH is an issue for analysts that get enough work and are motivated to do better. The only work-related thing you can't really do that well remotely is look over someone's shoulder, which is really nice for minor incidental learning but we're really talking about like learning Excel / PPT shortcuts here and not a ton else, which anyone can learn if they put a minimum amount of effort into.
And in terms of recruiting, the candidate pool at the junior level doesn't seem that great nowadays on average, but I think that's more due to a trend of smart young people increasingly turning away from banking / finance given the diversity of options they have. And that started way before the pandemic and WFH. I really think senior folks driving these return to office policies have their head in the sand when it comes to how unattractive the junior banking lifestyle is. Why would a new analyst care about making $120k which still doesn't get that far in NY when they could live in Boston / Philadelphia / Austin / any Tier A- or B city making the same amount of money with like half the hours doing something more interesting than staring at PowerPoint / Excel and getting bent over by every single person above you in your group every day?
Idk if VPs are wary of staffing people they don’t see, but personally I keep getting staffed by the same people I’ve worked with directly rather than by staffer
IMO the most ideal combination would be hybrid with set days that everyone comes in (maximizes in person benefit rather than people coming in on random days) but cutting out FaceTime and being able to leave early to WFH if you're working independently on something. Obviously this won't happen long term cause boomers love FaceTime and culture but there was a period where people were slowly trickling into the office so there was still a good group of people around esp within my analyst class but not enough people that I felt pressured to stay late just for the sake of it.
Tbh I like having limited people in. You can actually speak with someone and not too noisy
This^^^^
Lazard is offering a work from home arrangement two days of the week if I remember reading correctly.
IMO it's worth coming in for the first 6 months and going hybrid thereafter due to the steep but quick plateau in the learning curve.
I ramped up the curve way faster once I started going into the office - I didn't have a damn clue what I was doing wfh, and I picked up on so many life-saving details once I went in and actually talked to first years going through the same things. The informal convos go a long way - asking to hop on a call with a swamped associate or bunching questions together in an email while wfh is not as efficient.
Once the learning curve levels off, it makes more sense to go hybrid for the extra sleep, improvement in lifestyle, etc. Would be nice to know which days the experienced people are coming in though.
Also agree on the ability to leave after dinner if you're working on something that you know how to do and don’t anticipate a lot of questions.
Talking over Zoom is like talking to an AI. The truth is no one really cares to engage deeply with an AI, unless, of course, yourself is an AI.
The same ideology of learning every keyboard shortcut to avoid using the mouse in Excel/PowerPoint applies to why permanent WFH will never exist in banking. Being efficient in every task as a junior banker could be the difference between going to bed at 2 vs 3 (which makes a big difference). If you’re sitting at your desk in a pod with your team, you can turn to your associate or VP and ask a question and get an immediate answer. Whereas if you’re sitting at your desk at home and want to ask a question you either have to write an email or ping someone and hope for a speedy response. When I was an analyst, I had a VP that would come to the office after traveling and talk to us about the client meeting and go over any follow-up materials (others would give us a call or email if it was urgent and they didn’t want to go back to the office). If I was at home I could be making dinner or away (for any reason) and the message could take time to be received. Inherently, WFH has given the freedom to delay work and take time for things like making food and, much needed, mental health breaks. Going back to the office full time helps drive efficiency and allows teams to disseminate information. If this sounds too harsh then you probably shouldn’t be an investment banker. This is just reality, but junior bankers are now jaded by the idea of working in the office because most of them started during or right before the pandemic, and benefited from the convenience of WFH. Permanent is not a good idea IMO and banks will do everything they can to avoid it for the foreseeable future.
You heard of MS Teams ?
While not in IB, but in cleaning up after ya'll in SEC reporting (MF/HF/PE/REIT/etc), I have to say WFH is a natural progression. If my manager has to talk to me about something outside of college football, I really have to have screwed something up. The only reason for us to show up in the local office is to dick around and play Golden Tee during downtime. Otherwise, any tricks and "gotchas!" can be taught and shared through Zoom/Teams. Associate A puts out a ping in chat requesting help with a specific filing they've never seen, Professional Services B flashes junior C the message so they can join the Zoom meeting between A and their CFO/CIO client that now has attendees from three different time zones because everyone's split apart and no one's ever met face to face (that beloved "face time" mythos?). As pointed out above, record the meeting and keep it as training material for other associates and pitch it up to the education team to make a new KBA and tutorial video that can be shared with other clients as well so it doesn't become a pigeonhole issue for junior C to be stuck with every single day. Over time people begin to develop specialties in different reporting spaces and associates learn who to go to for help, or even just who to go to in order to find out who can help.
Edit to add: we still have tons of camraderie even if it's just through chat. Kicking goofy memes back and forth. Some of us do live in the same city so we'll go out for happy hour at the end of the week, or a baseball game, etc. As also pointed out above, so long as you make an effort, it's still there. Sure, there's some who just do the job and sign off until Monday morning and keep to themselves, and that's fine too since they don't antagonize anyone and are probably dealing with a couple of three year olds at home during the day too and have additional priorities.
I am surprised this is still being debated. We are all going back to an office whether we like it or not.
The biggest reason we are going back (if you aren’t back yet) is because it’s better for the firm. Working from home may be better for you, but in very few instances is it as good or better for the firm. Now you may argue that what’s better for you is better for the firm- and you may be right, but I don’t think most executives necessarily see the correlation. And nearly every firm has come to this conclusion, that in person interaction is needed. With my team, we are still meeting up for occasional lunches, and it makes a huge difference.
The reason you have not seen a material impact to clients yet is because most of the industry is still operating in a similar model. But once the world is more “fully” back, there will be firms prioritizing in-person client interaction - and my guess is those firms will come out on top.
I am all for a hybrid model though, and analysts shouldn’t be stuck at their offices until 3AM ever again.
But regarding permanent work-from-home - just because you “can” do it, doesn’t mean you “should do it. (And I am a millennial, not a “crusty” boomer.)
I think a big part of that is this kind of event hasn't happened before, so nobody ever thought there would be any kind of correlation. And it's definitely rocked the boat that was on smooth sailing for decades. I know this is the IB forum, so getting a group of analysts/associates back in the same room to work on team projects makes sense. But the person doing the blue sky disclosures on the final deal terms doesn't need to be there. So some people don't need to come back, but it makes sense to at least hybrid schedule other groups to be in together.
The impact of WFH on junior is that it creates a wider disparity between good vs. bad analysts and associates. Those who are talented, self-sufficient, and would’ve done well with minimal supervision while in the office will also excel in a WFH environment for the most part. Those who need hand holding will be significantly worse while WFH.
For firms who value superstar juniors (Buyside roles primarily and smaller, respected IB Boutiques) and want to encourage retention, putting a hybrid WFH model makes the most sense. For large churn shops like most banks, the goal is to squeeze as much incremental value out of each junior as possible, with little regard for what the better folks will want. As a result, I can see these being mostly full return to office or hybrid type models.
Where you work from will definitely be a differentiating factor in recruiting talent, especially for high-demand folks, given the enormous myriad of MM/UMM PE Shops. Banks will always have a plethora of “good enough” talent that catering to their needs is likely meaningless.
Do we expect more banks to go hybrid? It seems like the easy solution for everyone to win and them not lose a ton of talent. I’m shocked that my bank hasn’t even mentioned it.
A lot of good points have been covered above already but let’s start in baby steps.
On average, at what time are we (Analysts and Associates) anticipating leaving the office (once we return)? 6-7pm, 10-11pm or later still?
Is there any sense to working late while being in the office physically?
Literally no point in being there after 5 or even if you have your instructions for the day and are just doing something grindy for the day then should just be able to leave whenever.
Personally I’m doing differently, coming at midday or so but leaving when I’m done for the day
I absolutely agree with this. But I think this doesn't just stop here, this can easily be extrapolated to a hybrid (3 out of 5 days etc.) routine too.
The 3/5 days thing should allow juniors to capitalise on the "upside" of being in the office (networking, listening in the aforementioned prized MD calls where MDs drop Plato level wisdom etc.) without having the impact of burning out people with unnecessary commute etc.
You don't need to be in the office 5/5 days (or more) to learn about other people working on the same floor / different teams. 3/5 will easily achieve the same outcome.
Do you think banks will actually implement this?
You know how there have been brand discounts with GS and LAZ etc. paying a little lower or something. Can easily see analysts / associates going for places that pay a base which is 10-20k lower but flexible re. WFH as opposed to one that calls you into the office like pre-COVID times.
Damn hopefully with Lazard being so proactive other banks will also move towards a hybrid model.
That would be nice. I’m slowly losing hope.
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Laboriosam ex repellendus tempora veritatis itaque quos. Doloribus tempore possimus ut et asperiores necessitatibus excepturi voluptatum. Ut mollitia amet velit vel aut repudiandae sit. Consequuntur porro facilis in praesentium omnis.